
- Time
- Post link
Thanks to oojason for the suggestion. This article is very insightful.
This topic has been locked by a moderator.
The collapse of the media was a global phenomenon, but it was a little more spectacular in the US. Consider the BBC–yeah, it has a bit of a stodgy conservative editorial bias, but it generally avoids the strident ideological stuff that’s common in the US. Plus you get to read about Big Cat sightings on occasion, so you get that 😉 Der Spiegel (yes, there’s an English version), kinda the same strain as the BBC really, so pretty nice. The Independent (UK) is pretty lacking the editorial restraint department, but it’s a good left-of-center counterbalance to the Beeb. Honestly wish there was a large left-leaning news source with good-quality editorial control, but haven’t found one. In the US, the Washington Post seems to be trying to stake out their position as the only large centrist media outlet, with pretty decent editorial control too, but we’ll see how long that lasts.
This is BBC 1. We’re stodgy, and proud of it!
(And yes I know that’s an ancient logo, but I’m fond of it for all the times it appeared on Monty Python.)
Where were you in '77?
Thanks to oojason for the suggestion. This article is very insightful.
Which parts are supposition?
I read the whole thing top to bottom twice in an attempt to figure that out. Everything is either uncontroversial or has well-documented sourcing.
The only thing I can see setting off anyone is this:
Allegations by U.S. intelligence agencies that Russian actors were behind hacking of senior Democratic Party operatives and spreading disinformation linger over Trump’s young presidency. Democrats charge the Russians wanted to tilt the election toward the Republican, a claim dismissed by Trump. Russia denies the allegations.
It’s treated like a he-said, she-said. You’ve got unnamed intelligence agencies and Democrats on one side, and Trump and the Russians on the other. Equally weighted, fair and balanced. They didn’t name all 17 of the intelligence agencies, to avoid tipping the field. Reuters is usually pretty conservative, but this is only a slight pro-Trump tilt.
That would be it. The DNC still has not given it’s servers to the FBI to examine (and they asked) so I am unsure as to how they can actually keep making the claim. There is no fool proof evidence from anyone at this juncture that can accurately prove or disprove that Trump is a liar and that the Russians lost Clinton the election. None.
So you found one thing in that entire (rather long) article, and it’s something that gives the viewpoint of both (all three, including Russia) sides, and that means the article is a mish-mash of supposition and fact?
What?
This is why I should know better. I really should go back to ignoring you 100% of the time, it would be best for both of us I’m sure.
Why can’t you ever just politely accept the fact that not everyone shares your views and opinions and that it is okay for them to do so? This is why we have fought so much. You never want to be wrong, ever, and I can’t imagine you’re that omnipotent since you have a family.
😦
None of this makes a lick of sense, as usual. Especially the part about my family, I have no idea what the fuck that is supposed to mean.
Before you were banned I was doing a pretty good job of ignoring you and I was a much happier person for it. I made the mistake of responding to your posts again after you came back, so the fault is mine. Now I fix that mistake by no longer responding to anything you say anymore. It’s completely pointless and life is too short.
I’d recommend The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk) as a decent alternative source to the BBC (and the BBC News’ kowtowing down to the Conservative Party in recent years - likely for fear of cuts to it’s licence fee by them).
I’m just an American, so it’s hard for me to comment on the British press, but I agree about the Guardian. I started reading Glenn Greenwald there (and although he left) I try to never miss anything he writes.
The Guardian’s own investigative journalism is not afraid to go to places where it may find itself in trouble - as you say with Greenwald’s journalism - and a load of Spooks turning up to destroy evidence at its offices!
(I must give The Intercept https://theintercept.com/ more reading time)
Unfortunately, not a lot of UK news media seem to do it’s own investigative journalism anymore - and also shies away from topics like Hillsborough, Orgreave, and of course News International hacking scandal - which the Guardian has led the way on.
I’d also give a mention to The Telegraph - yes, it is right-wing based - but, like The Guardian - it will attack it’s own side when it feels necessary or if it has overstepped the mark (or through gross incompetency).
Also, like The Guardian, the Telegraph also has guest writers from the ‘other side’, along with environmentalists, scientists and liberals - as well as experts in the field (ie, if the subject of an Education Bill comes up they will give column inches to teachers, headmasters - even children - people who may actually know more than the politicians!) giving them a welcome platform to put their views across for consideration.
For us Brits, Channel 4 News (tv) is also worth a mention - impartial and will ask the hard questions, sometimes uncomfortable (as it should be), and not afraid to take on those in power. Far more fearless than the BBC - and doesn’t have to pander to commercial pressures like ITV.
It used to be quite stuffy or aloof - though that has changed in recent years - for the better too 😃
https://www.channel4.com/news/ & https://twitter.com/channel4news
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Which parts are supposition?
I read the whole thing top to bottom twice in an attempt to figure that out. Everything is either uncontroversial or has well-documented sourcing.
The only thing I can see setting off anyone is this:
Allegations by U.S. intelligence agencies that Russian actors were behind hacking of senior Democratic Party operatives and spreading disinformation linger over Trump’s young presidency. Democrats charge the Russians wanted to tilt the election toward the Republican, a claim dismissed by Trump. Russia denies the allegations.
It’s treated like a he-said, she-said. You’ve got unnamed intelligence agencies and Democrats on one side, and Trump and the Russians on the other. Equally weighted, fair and balanced. They didn’t name all 17 of the intelligence agencies, to avoid tipping the field. Reuters is usually pretty conservative, but this is only a slight pro-Trump tilt.
That would be it. The DNC still has not given it’s servers to the FBI to examine (and they asked) so I am unsure as to how they can actually keep making the claim. There is no fool proof evidence from anyone at this juncture that can accurately prove or disprove that Trump is a liar and that the Russians lost Clinton the election. None.
So you found one thing in that entire (rather long) article, and it’s something that gives the viewpoint of both (all three, including Russia) sides, and that means the article is a mish-mash of supposition and fact?
What?
This is why I should know better. I really should go back to ignoring you 100% of the time, it would be best for both of us I’m sure.
Why can’t you ever just politely accept the fact that not everyone shares your views and opinions and that it is okay for them to do so? This is why we have fought so much. You never want to be wrong, ever, and I can’t imagine you’re that omnipotent since you have a family.
😦
None of this makes a lick of sense, as usual. Especially the part about my family, I have no idea what the fuck that is supposed to mean.
Before you were banned I was doing a pretty good job of ignoring you and I was a much happier person for it. I made the mistake of responding to your posts again after you came back, so the fault is mine. Now I fix that mistake by no longer responding to anything you say anymore. It’s completely pointless and life is too short.
LOL. Be well Frink. Life is too short and we all have real lives outside of here that take precedence over anything else. Your indignant opinion of me is most certainly a problem but you’re right, it’s your problem. If ignoring me makes you feel better than I am happy to encourage it. I don’t ever want to wish harm on anyone, including you, it is not how I was raised nor is it how I raise my daughter.
Take care sir, I appreciate what little time you actually gave, I know it was hard.
Cheers
Who wants to just pop in on the White House for coffee?
The collapse of the media was a global phenomenon, but it was a little more spectacular in the US. Consider the BBC–yeah, it has a bit of a stodgy conservative editorial bias, but it generally avoids the strident ideological stuff that’s common in the US. Plus you get to read about Big Cat sightings on occasion, so you get that 😉 Der Spiegel (yes, there’s an English version), kinda the same strain as the BBC really, so pretty nice. The Independent (UK) is pretty lacking the editorial restraint department, but it’s a good left-of-center counterbalance to the Beeb. Honestly wish there was a large left-leaning news source with good-quality editorial control, but haven’t found one. In the US, the Washington Post seems to be trying to stake out their position as the only large centrist media outlet, with pretty decent editorial control too, but we’ll see how long that lasts.
I’d recommend The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk) as a decent alternative source to the BBC (and the BBC News’ kowtowing down to the Conservative Party in recent years - likely for fear of cuts to it’s licence fee by them).
The Guardian is fairly unique in the UK media as it is owned by a trust and not run for profit (and any profit is invested back into the newspaper - instead of going to it’s owner or shareholders). This is to help keep a certain journalistic freedom and maintain the values of The Guardian - free from commercial or political interference.
If you really want a view from ‘left-field’, as it were, I occasionally opt for the Morning Star (http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/ & https://twitter.com/M_Star_Online), but they have a very limited budget - and whilst many pieces are written with good factual standards, obviously pieces are written from a very certain point of view 😉
Thanks, it’s been a while since I’ve browsed around. Back in the Iraq invasion days, I didn’t honestly see much difference between the Guardian and the Beeb, but that was a long time ago, the issues were very different then as well, and the Conservatives weren’t in power.
Also, a big advantage of the British media over American media. You get a whole new continent with news happening in it every day – Africa! We seem to have misplaced it over here.
There is, in my humble opinion, a big difference between the BBC & Guardian now. Sadly, I don’t think the BBC News will change soon, especially not whilst the likes of Laura Kuenssberg and cronies are there - amongst some weak BBC management.
Our proximity in Europe to events, mainly in North Africa, means we cover Africa a fair bit more than I imagine the US does, as well as more a direct line to former colonies, our history (of fucking up the continent and installing/strengthening dictators) and more recent immigration to here, mean it is likely of more interest…
Yet we struggle for news from Central and South America - unless it linked to corruption or sport - or both of those 😉 Where I imagine you may get more news of what is going on there?
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Having coffee at the White House looks fun. I can see why people might want to do it.
😃
Are there any reliable news articles about the Russian spies that were arrested and jailed? I’ve have seen a few brief mentions that the 2nd FSB agent arrested may have been a U.S. asset.
Thanks to oojason for the suggestion. This article is very insightful.
No worries mate - I do find they often have articles not covered elsewhere - or as in much detail (on various topics in the UK and around the world).
And as they don’t feel commercial pressures like many other media outlets, they don’t have to just cover the more ‘popular’ stories. Or do click-bait articles or have misleading headline titles when the actual content is somewhat different (youtubers - I’m looking at you! 😃)
A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…
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‘How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com - includes info on how to ask for a fan project and how to search for projects and threads on OT•com.
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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-gao-idUSKBN16Y2QR
A U.S. government watchdog has agreed to review how classified information is kept secure at President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida, the agency said on Monday, after Democratic lawmakers raised concerns about the issue last month.
The Government Accountability Office’s review will examine whether Secret Service agents subject Mar-a-Lago guests to any security screening, and evaluate the expenses incurred by government employees who travel with Trump to Mar-a-Lago, according to a letter the agency sent the lawmakers on Friday.
The GAO will also check whether Trump has made any payments to the U.S. Treasury from profits at his hotels, the letter said. Trump’s lawyer pledged at a Jan. 11 news conference to donate Trump Hotel profits from foreign governments to the Treasury.
It would be hilarious and sad if Mar-a-Lago was crawling with Russian bugs and spies.
Where were you in '77?
Just like Trump’s hair!
Even Dick Cheney thinks Russia tried to screw with the election.
It would be hilarious and sad if Mar-a-Lago was crawling with Russian bugs and spies.
If the DNC would hand over their servers they say were compromised by those unknown Russian bugs and spies we might have a better idea of how things went down. Maybe Bernie Sanders should spearhead the Mar-a-Lago expedition?
😉
I wonder what everyone thinks of some of the new leftist SJW culture that has been arising. I notice it a lot since I attend high school and probably will notice it even further during college. But sometimes I genuinely feel like if you support Trump, then you automatically are shamed and shut down. I see it happen everyday. I am NOT a trump supporter in any shape or form. I think he is unqualified, makes poor decisions, and ultimately is not well educated enough to be a successful president. I am willing to discuss why I think so and if you disagree then that is awesome! But I keep running into more and more people who simply disrespect someone if they figure out that they are republican or support Trump. I do support capitalism and am mostly pro-life (I say mostly because they are a multitude of special situations where it should be up to the mother). But I also believe in separation of church and state (I’m an agnostic), gay rights, and keeping the environment a top priority.
I ultimately fear that PC culture is starting to shut down discussion and plagues debates with personal attacks of people being a racist, bigot or fascist.
All in all, does ANYONE at all here ever feel like it is becoming more and more unacceptable to take certain views and express your opinion in fear of being named a racist, or a bigot? (which is happening, just look at the Berkley protests or any of my highschool classrooms). I would say that I probably align myself most with the views that Gavin Mcinnes and Dave Rubin on this new issue. The final video below really sums up the gist of what I’m saying: (Dave Rubin on why he “Left the left”)
SJW is a criticism of faux-liberals. The kind of people who are tripping over themselves to be more politically correct and more inclusive than everyone else, not in the interest of promoting liberal ideals, but in the interest of promoting themselves and improving their social status.
Of course, that’s not what liberalism is about. It’s a horrible problem the left has these days.
SJW is a criticism of faux-liberals. The kind of people who are tripping over themselves to be more politically correct and more inclusive than everyone else, not in the interest of promoting liberal ideals, but in the interest of promoting themselves and improving their social status.
Of course, that’s not what liberalism is about. It’s a horrible problem the left has these days.
That’s why in the video I linked about “Leaving the Left”, Dave Rubin says that he feels like what used to define a liberal (standing up for free speech) has now morphed into “If you disagree with me, then you are a racist bigot who should be thrown out and not listened to. Now onto the violent protesting that achieves nothing”.
Rush, there comes a moment in life where you start to become more aware of the larger societal and systemic conflicts of the world, and how often they affect others (and perhaps not yourself). When faced with this kind of info, people can go too far in either direction - speaking out or shrugging it off. This is natural if unfortunate for nuanced discussion. The key is though to realize nuanced discussion on certain topics does exist if you’re willing to look hard and challenge your own views, whatever they may be.
The problem that you probably don’t realize is that terms like SJW and PC are used to generalize and discredit. Those who make sweeping allegations that these type of people refuse to have reasonable debates are no better themselves. The truth is that yes, a lot of people take things too far (especially on the internet), but you can’t discount a whole ideology just because the word “racism” is brought up, for instance. More often than not, these people have a very well thought out argument as to why such and such is problematic and it’s a lot more than just “waaah he’s a bigot meanie.” To lump everyone into a dismissive categorization like SJW is to essentially say that anyone who thinks things like racism and sexism are still a problem are ridiculous, which is of course as ridiculous a statement as anything else.
At the end of the day, in my mind, which is worse? Someone being cautious about a potentially offensive thing even if overly so? Or someone being actually offensive?
Trump is such a charged situation. For so many people he represents the epitome of everything wrong in the country, and not in the usual “we have a different ideology” way, but in a plainly moral way. And that’s because the guy is living, breathing scum, an example of a bigoted rich old white guy so perfect as to be a parody of itself. The truth is, the bigotry is right there for anyone looking. And for many that makes him completely unredeemable. And for others it doesn’t change a thing for them (and then of course there’s those who like it). Now obviously you have a right not to mind the man’s bigotry. But for many people they just cannot understand how anyone could brush that aside, especially when that bigotry and ignorance can directly affect them. I’m certainly one to preach tolerance, so I understand Trump supporters who overlooked the troubling aspects. But I also sympathize with those who could not. To dismiss those who are so passionately against him is just as bad to dismiss those who are rationally for him. Both have a perspective and a reason for what many on either side may consider to be their extreme opinions.
Now I haven’t watched those videos but just from what you quoted I’m worried about the rhetoric. Mentioning “violent protests” is a clear bit of false framing to villainize these people on the left, because the truth is most protesting is not violent at all, as has been abundantly obvious in this country in the last few months.
Bottom line is understanding the complexity of perspectives and opinions of people in the modern world. It’s tough when you’re in high school and people are just starting to tap into a feeling and don’t know the most rational way to express it yet. But the worst thing you can do is to dismiss someone’s perspective outright on either side of the aisle, just because it doesn’t conform to what you already believe is true about the world.
I wonder what everyone thinks of some of the new leftist SJW culture that has been arising. I notice it a lot since I attend high school and probably will notice it even further during college. But sometimes I genuinely feel like if you support Trump, then you automatically are shamed and shut down. I see it happen everyday. I am NOT a trump supporter in any shape or form. I think he is unqualified, makes poor decisions, and ultimately is not well educated enough to be a successful president. I am willing to discuss why I think so and if you disagree then that is awesome! But I keep running into more and more people who simply disrespect someone if they figure out that they are republican or support Trump. I do support capitalism and am mostly pro-life (I say mostly because they are a multitude of special situations where it should be up to the mother). But I also believe in separation of church and state (I’m an agnostic), gay rights, and keeping the environment a top priority.
I ultimately fear that PC culture is starting to shut down discussion and plagues debates with personal attacks of people being a racist, bigot or fascist.
All in all, does ANYONE at all here ever feel like it is becoming more and more unacceptable to take certain views and express your opinion in fear of being named a racist, or a bigot? (which is happening, just look at the Berkley protests or any of my highschool classrooms). I would say that I probably align myself most with the views that Gavin Mcinnes and Dave Rubin on this new issue. The final video below really sums up the gist of what I’m saying: (Dave Rubin on why he “Left the left”)
I watched the video and I feel as Mr. Rubin does. Being a “free thinker” is tantamount to being a criminal these days. When you are expected to change everything that defines you just to fit in, maybe it is time to go.
Thank you ender, you’ve given me alot to think about moving forward.
For a story that (per Trump) is fake news, he sure is trying hard to make sure people don’t learn anything about it.
The Trump administration sought to block former acting attorney general Sally Yates from testifying to Congress in the House investigation of links between Russian officials and Donald Trump’s presidential campaign, The Washington Post has learned, a position that is likely to further anger Democrats who have accused Republicans of trying to damage the inquiry.
According to letters The Post reviewed, the Justice Department notified Yates earlier this month that the administration considers a great deal of her possible testimony to be barred from discussion in a congressional hearing because the topics are covered by the presidential communication privilege.
Yates and other former intelligence officials had been asked to testify before the House Intelligence Committee this week, a hearing that was abruptly canceled by the panel’s chairman, Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.). Yates was the deputy attorney general in the final years of the Obama administration, and served as the acting attorney general in the first days of the Trump administration.
President Trump fired Yates in January after she ordered Justice Department lawyers not to defend his first immigration order temporarily banning entry to United States for citizens of seven Muslim-majority countries and refugees from around the world.
Related:
Rush, there comes a moment in life where you start to become more aware of the larger societal and systemic conflicts of the world, and how often they affect others (and perhaps not yourself). When faced with this kind of info, people can go too far in either direction - speaking out or shrugging it off. This is natural if unfortunate for nuanced discussion. The key is though to realize nuanced discussion on certain topics does exist if you’re willing to look hard and challenge your own views, whatever they may be.
The problem that you probably don’t realize is that terms like SJW and PC are used to generalize and discredit. Those who make sweeping allegations that these type of people refuse to have reasonable debates are no better themselves. The truth is that yes, a lot of people take things too far (especially on the internet), but you can’t discount a whole ideology just because the word “racism” is brought up, for instance. More often than not, these people have a very well thought out argument as to why such and such is problematic and it’s a lot more than just “waaah he’s a bigot meanie.” To lump everyone into a dismissive categorization like SJW is to essentially say that anyone who thinks things like racism and sexism are still a problem are ridiculous, which is of course as ridiculous a statement as anything else.
At the end of the day, in my mind, which is worse? Someone being cautious about a potentially offensive thing even if overly so? Or someone being actually offensive?
Trump is such a charged situation. For so many people he represents the epitome of everything wrong in the country, and not in the usual “we have a different ideology” way, but in a plainly moral way. And that’s because the guy is living, breathing scum, an example of a bigoted rich old white guy so perfect as to be a parody of itself. The truth is, the bigotry is right there for anyone looking. And for many that makes him completely unredeemable. And for others it doesn’t change a thing for them (and then of course there’s those who like it). Now obviously you have a right not to mind the man’s bigotry. But for many people they just cannot understand how anyone could brush that aside, especially when that bigotry and ignorance can directly affect them. I’m certainly one to preach tolerance, so I understand Trump supporters who overlooked the troubling aspects. But I also sympathize with those who could not. To dismiss those who are so passionately against him is just as bad to dismiss those who are rationally for him. Both have a perspective and a reason for what many on either side may consider to be their extreme opinions.
Now I haven’t watched those videos but just from what you quoted I’m worried about the rhetoric. Mentioning “violent protests” is a clear bit of false framing to villainize these people on the left, because the truth is most protesting is not violent at all, as has been abundantly obvious in this country in the last few months.
Bottom line is understanding the complexity of perspectives and opinions of people in the modern world. It’s tough when you’re in high school and people are just starting to tap into a feeling and don’t know the most rational way to express it yet. But the worst thing you can do is to dismiss someone’s perspective outright on either side of the aisle, just because it doesn’t conform to what you already believe is true about the world.
Well said. I’d add that Trump’s obvious bigotry is not merely a personal criticism, it’s a political one. He campaigned on overt bigotry–and he won because of his overt bigotry, not in spite of it. That’s unusual–we haven’t seen anyone quite like him since George Wallace. So separating the bigoted man from his policies (as people sometimes do discussing Richard Nixon, Woodrow Wilson, etc) is pretty much impossible. That makes political discussions difficult when your starting position is that white supremacy is too far out to take seriously, and I’m afraid that’s a reasonable starting point.
It also doesn’t help that your standard sensitive white person thinks of racism as a binary thing. Either you’re completely free of racism or you’re wearing a hood. So when someone says something is racist, sensitive white person immediately jumps to the hood imagery and either says “Oh noes I’m not associating with that” or “That is ridiculous, you are wrong, you SJW”. But most everyone else sees racism as Palmolive. You’re soaking in it. You’ve been soaking in it since birth, every one of us, even SJW’s. And it’s just a matter of how aware you are of it, rather than if you’ve managed to wash it all off, because you can’t. This dismissal of SJW’s just because of different definitions of racism means that the SJW’s are, through repetitive practice, easy to dismiss even when someone actually is wearing a hood.
Agree with both you guys. I know that a large percentage of Trump voters legitimately just want things to be better and aren’t racist, sexist, xenophobic, etc., but they decided to ignore all of those components (not to mention all of Trump’s other problems, such as his obvious lies, his complete lack of qualifications for the job, etc.) to vote for him. Well, we’re all getting the “benefits” of a Trump presidency now, and many of his supporters are the ones who are and will be paying for it the most.
Related:
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2017/03/trump-executive-order-climate
This might get Papa Bear in a bit of trouble.
JEDIT: