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Are retrospective changes just fan service?

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Star Wars is great. The Originals and The 97SEs are fundamentally the same for the most part, but since the DVD release they seem to have changed the way the films actually feel. Now I often hear people justify the changes with The Emperor in Empire, while lambasting the color change to match the prequel trilogy. Is it not ROTJ’s fault that the Emperor was different than in ESB? If ROTJ had never been made, I think that the Emperor’s appearance and voice would be as good as can be expected, and the later movies are at fault for not matching what was created before them.
This may sound like semantics given that Jedi WAS in fact made, and so we can’t say that. But if ESB was more or less a perfect movie when it came out then why would we want to change something so great in such an obvious and drastic way? It seems more like fan service to me than progressive change.

PS: I do love The Adywan Edit, that was beautifully done, but I prefer the original Emperor in ESB.

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The 97 SE has FAR more in common with 2004-onwards than the original. 2004 is basically the 97 SE but with changed colors and a butchered sound mix.

Chickens have personalities.

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Possessed said:

The 97 SE has FAR more in common with 2004-onwards than the original. 2004 is basically the 97 SE but with changed colors and a butchered sound mix.

I disagree. The changes in the 97SE are more based on what they literally were unable to do at the time for budget based, or technology based reasons. The DVD changed the Emperor to match the prequels and Jedi, changed Anakin to match the prequels, Made CGI Jabba look worse (quite a feat), changed the color to match the prequels, Changed Boba Fett’s Voice to match Jango’s and of course added Naboo in the end credits. All these changes were to match other films in the series, not to improve where something may have been lacking.

I will not defend Jedi Rocks, but it’s not really worse than what was in the original.

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Netherhero said:

Star Wars is great. The Originals and The 97SEs are fundamentally the same for the most part, but since the DVD release they seem to have changed the way the films actually feel.

Sorry, but no. There have been hundreds of changes done between the originals and the 97 SEs.
The 2004 DVD is basically the 97SE with corrected colours, worse sound mix, new scenes (like “Wesa free” in ROTJ), and re-done effects (new Jabba in E4, new Coruscant in E6). The 2011 Blu-ray is the 2004 master with some minor changes (like the new door to Jabba’s palace) and correction of some lightsabre shots (only the shots which we complained about, and nothing else).

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pittrek said:
Sorry, but no. There have been hundreds of changes done between the originals and the 97 SEs.
The 2004 DVD is basically the 97SE with corrected colours

That’s just not true. The only people who ever say that are people who swear by the original cuts and don’t watch the special editions. I saw the faces release first, that was my intro to star wars when I was a kid, then I watched the special edition growing up, and then I had the DVDs when I was a teenager. Those are just what I had available because they didn’t rerelease the originals. The DVD version is completely different because the changes you describe warp the foundation the films. Adding a cgi dewback is just not the same as adding a Hayden Christensen.

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Nobody is disputing that 04 onwards is worse than the 97, but it’s still just an even more butchered 97. Han shooting second, jabba being in the film at all, alerting Darth Vaders star destroyer to prepare for his arrival, jedi rocks, bird beak in the sarlaac pit, all 97 bud. Besides Ian and Hayden all the 04 versions did was refine the 97 changes.

Chickens have personalities.

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Netherhero said:

pittrek said:
Sorry, but no. There have been hundreds of changes done between the originals and the 97 SEs.
The 2004 DVD is basically the 97SE with corrected colours

That’s just not true. The only people who ever say that are people who swear by the original cuts and don’t watch the special editions. I saw the faces release first, that was my intro to star wars when I was a kid, then I watched the special edition growing up, and then I had the DVDs when I was a teenager. Those are just what I had available because they didn’t rerelease the originals. The DVD version is completely different because the changes you describe warp the foundation the films. Adding a cgi dewback is just not the same as adding a Hayden Christensen.

That doesn’t change the fact that they have done hundreds (OK, maybe not literally hundreds, I didn’t count them) changes between the original version and the 1997 SE : https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMh7UH0DbCPGxQyEOdmfmYiFnh3lgoBNNLCPnHTQnvyCtXQnScSo8L_vR3x6A9y_Q?key=aDFfLXE3clp4SldVcndkalc3UjJ4UlU2ZUlDb0JB

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Netherhero said:

pittrek said:
Sorry, but no. There have been hundreds of changes done between the originals and the 97 SEs.
The 2004 DVD is basically the 97SE with corrected colours

That’s just not true. The only people who ever say that are people who swear by the original cuts and don’t watch the special editions. I saw the faces release first, that was my intro to star wars when I was a kid, then I watched the special edition growing up, and then I had the DVDs when I was a teenager. Those are just what I had available because they didn’t rerelease the originals. The DVD version is completely different because the changes you describe warp the foundation the films. Adding a cgi dewback is just not the same as adding a Hayden Christensen.

Well it’s difficult to say if you’re judging it based on the perceived intensity of the changes, or the raw number. As far as number is concerned, I think the 97 will come in first for the change count (especially for ANH). In 1997, Lucas did say Jedi needed the fewest changes as it was in better shape in his mind. And they’ve changed it quite a bit since then. Still, the tons of little changes in optical effects and such are probably most numerous from original to 97.

It sounds more like you’re discussing severity of the changes, which is a pretty subjective thing. But, indeed, there wasn’t the (fully formed) corrupting influence of the PT in 1997. So for any of us PT critics, the 2004-2011 changes will carry a little more weight in how awful they can be. Some things in 1997 were probably Lucas’s original vision. Other things are surely bullshit. In another sense, the 2004 version could maybe be considered “most changed” since they butchered essentially every frame in color correction. And if light sabers are among your favorite things in the Star Wars universe, the visual effect is utterly trashed starting in 2004 (and not much better in 2011). So, yeah. It’s subjective.

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towne32 said:
Some things in 1997 were probably Lucas’s original vision. Other things are surely bullshit.

This could be a fun discussion–speculating on the reasons behind each and every change.

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Alderaan said:

towne32 said:
Some things in 1997 were probably Lucas’s original vision. Other things are surely bullshit.

This could be a fun discussion–speculating on the reasons behind each and every change.

Someone here at one point speculated that some of the most pointless 2011 changes might have been done with 3D in mind.

R2’s rocks
Jabba’s door
The Dug thing
(maybe the sparks in ESB?).

Compositing in new items on a different plane makes for easy things that can be forced to ‘pop’ in 3D.

This post has been edited.

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Possessed said:

Nobody is disputing that 04 onwards is worse than the 97

I will. 97 had a far worse looking Jabba and a far worse edit in the Greedo scene. Now they shoot at the same time and there is no terrible head dodge.

Also I like having Ian as the Emperor for the sake of consistency, even if it’s not perfect.

Jedi is the only one that was worse off in the later releases, due to Hayden and the NOOOOOO!!. But the first two are marginally superior in their 04/11 versions compared to the 97.

Pretty sure anyone who thinks that the 97 is somehow totally different from the later SEs and has more in common with the originals is just as blinded by nostalgia for those editions as they claim we are for the OUT.

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They all suck and critically mar each film. Hard to argue that any of them are better than the others.

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towne32 said:

Alderaan said:

towne32 said:
Some things in 1997 were probably Lucas’s original vision. Other things are surely bullshit.

This could be a fun discussion–speculating on the reasons behind each and every change.

Someone here at one point speculated that some of the most pointless 2011 changes might have been done with 3D in mind.

R2’s rocks
Jabba’s door
The Dug thing
(maybe the sparks in ESB?).

Compositing in new items on a different plane makes for easy things that can be forced to ‘pop’ in 3D.

It’s also been pointed out to me that some of the audio changes were done because LFL lost the originals or the original audio had been damaged. Luke’s changed dialogue to R2 in Empire Strikes Back being one of the examples.

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Alderaan said:

towne32 said:

Alderaan said:

towne32 said:
Some things in 1997 were probably Lucas’s original vision. Other things are surely bullshit.

This could be a fun discussion–speculating on the reasons behind each and every change.

Someone here at one point speculated that some of the most pointless 2011 changes might have been done with 3D in mind.

R2’s rocks
Jabba’s door
The Dug thing
(maybe the sparks in ESB?).

Compositing in new items on a different plane makes for easy things that can be forced to ‘pop’ in 3D.

It’s also been pointed out to me that some of the audio changes were done because LFL lost the originals or the original audio had been damaged. Luke’s changed dialogue to R2 in Empire Strikes Back being one of the examples.

That makes sense. I found out recently that was the on-set line. You would think it wouldn’t be all that hard to find a decent quality sample, especially considering that they have access to the lossless audio used for the Laserdiscs.

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Alderaan said:

towne32 said:

Alderaan said:

towne32 said:
Some things in 1997 were probably Lucas’s original vision. Other things are surely bullshit.

This could be a fun discussion–speculating on the reasons behind each and every change.

Someone here at one point speculated that some of the most pointless 2011 changes might have been done with 3D in mind.

R2’s rocks
Jabba’s door
The Dug thing
(maybe the sparks in ESB?).

Compositing in new items on a different plane makes for easy things that can be forced to ‘pop’ in 3D.

It’s also been pointed out to me that some of the audio changes were done because LFL lost the originals or the original audio had been damaged. Luke’s changed dialogue to R2 in Empire Strikes Back being one of the examples.

Has that been confirmed anywhere? The fact that most of the dialogue changes in the series seem to be lines by 3PO, storm troopers, etc (if I recall correctly) led me to believe that George was simply changing whatever he could in cases where he didn’t need to worry about lip sync. That line of Luke’s in the swamp is one where there’s not the clearest view of Luke’s face.

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Density said:

Possessed said:

Nobody is disputing that 04 onwards is worse than the 97

Pretty sure anyone who thinks that the 97 is somehow totally different from the later SEs and has more in common with the originals is just as blinded by nostalgia for those editions as they claim we are for the OUT.

I think part of it is because of all the SEs it has the fewest changes and the coloring is somewhat closer to the original.

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crissrudd4554 said:

Density said:

Possessed said:

Nobody is disputing that 04 onwards is worse than the 97

Pretty sure anyone who thinks that the 97 is somehow totally different from the later SEs and has more in common with the originals is just as blinded by nostalgia for those editions as they claim we are for the OUT.

I think part of it is because of all the SEs it has the fewest changes and the coloring is somewhat closer to the original.

Yes. The general look of the movie isn’t all that different. Obviously the tone and content are different, but the look isn’t.

The Empire did nothing wrong

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