Hal 9000

Granted. But… ? sly, playful wink

I like the idea, Ash, though I don’t recall the scene well enough to know if it’d work. But if so, sounds like what I’m looking for, as an example. Less humor is more. But I don’t think any amount of fan editing is going to make this movie into the Star Wars style I desire for it.

If there were no shot of the books at the end of the film, is Yoda a book burner?

My ranking isn’t meant to be objective, as if that were even possible.

My fifteen year old self really enjoyed ROTS in the theater a few times and there was enough there in terms of philosophy and ideas at play. Even when Star Wars isn’t doing so hot in terms of the actual movie, there’s usually still some good ideas to chew on and extrapolate from. Anakin’s psyche, the nature of power corrupting good intentions, desperation, idealism, etc. Even if it’s hokey, it’s the archetypal content that undergirds Star Wars. The execution of the prequels was fucked, but ROTS had that key ingredient poking through.
I enjoyed the saber duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan, as well as a masked Vader asking whether Padme was safe, turning Vader into a tragic figure to pave the way for my beloved ROTJ and his redemption.

The Last Jedi made me feel like an idiot, and I think it was on purpose whereas the prequels did the same by incompetence.

I’m just reporting my personal experience, and your mileage may vary.

So, Yoda is burning the books (or at least, apparently so) not because he’s agreeing or disagreeing with Luke about them but to categorize them as irrelevant for the moment. I don’t see how that is communicated other than retroactively after the audience member notices the texts on board the Falcon using their superhuman powers of focusing on every frame of this movie. And that’s an aggravating thing to do, treating this key insight into the story of Luke like an Easter egg.

Assume for a moment that that shot was not in the movie. Please, go with me there, and consider the Yoda scene without what came at the end of the movie. Thinking strictly from that limited POV, what’s the Yoda scene doing?

Thanks for that. I agree… with you agreeing with me.

Can you shed some light on why that (alleged) shot of the books at the end is there? What’s it mean? It seems bizarre that me and you read it one way, and yet joefavs feels confident in saying “of course Yoda isn’t advocating burning books.”

Just perplexing.

dahmage said:

FWIW, that Yoda thing was one of my favorite things in the whole film once I figured it out. I didn’t think it was actually contradictory, just some classic “certain point of view” Jedi Master trolling that got Luke to snap out of his funk and focus on what was important in that moment. Of course Yoda doesn’t actually advocate burning books.

Doesn’t he? If you left the theater before the end of the movie, or have less than superhuman focus like I do, wouldn’t that be exactly what you’d conclude? That scene, to the best of my ability to read, wholeheartedly says it’s time for the old Jedi to end and Yoda vindicates Luke’s desire to burn the books after he hesitates.

What I’d like to know is: does what makes you read that scene differently come from later in the film, or can you support it from that scene (and what came before) alone?

And how does that relate to why Luke does what he does at the end? And honestly, does Luke know Rey has the texts and he is counting on this as he tells Ren he won’t be the last Jedi? Or would he be surprised to learn this and say, “Hey, Yoda destroyed those!”?

If a split second shot toward the end of the movie that I missed when seeing the film twice is supposed to carry such interpretive weight necessary to understand themes intimately connected to Luke’s character and story, that makes me a little irrationally angry. Maybe it’s too far removed from how Star Wars films have always done things, especially after TFA tried so hard to match that style.

I’m not sure how successful these goals would be, but my preliminary fan editing guidelines for this one will be:

As usual, refrain from radically altering the source unless compelled and the stars align.

Trim away SNL humor. (For example, it’s fine for Poe to ‘tool with’ Hux, but Hux shouldn’t place himself in on the joke. So, perhaps counterintuitively, I’d leave in the “about his mother” line, but remove “Can he hear me? He can?”)

Trim ‘Droids’ humor, like BB8 taking out an armed guard by throwing change at him and driving a (tiny?) AT-ST.

Cut down on the fake-outs and misdirection. Most of the specific examples of this are okay on their own, but the sum is a movie that makes me feel like a monkey. Remove those that can safely be, even if they’re okay. (For example, I might even remove the laundry room moment even though I like it because doing so would somewhat detract from this negative aspect. Also, if I knew for a fact that Ep9 would not make use of the Jedi texts, remove their shot from the end of the movie and let the Yoda scene end up with a discernible meaning.)

Remove some of the jerks. This movie feels like it is playing tug-of-war with itself. (For example, as Luke and Yoda talk, trim Luke getting defensive about the texts he was just about to burn before Yoda did.)

joefavs said:

Yoda absolutely knows that Rey has the texts, it’s the whole reason he’s so cavalier about blowing up the tree. His actual line is “yes, yes, wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess”. He’s letting Luke think he means that Rey doesn’t need the books, but he’s actually saying she literally possesses them.

That’s fine, if a little “technical” on Yoda’s part. The problem is that the scene plays out clearly implying one thing, then the end of the movie has a very quick shot (which I have yet to perceive with my eyes; I’m trusting you guys that it really happened) which seems to imply the precise opposite. This film is littered with things like this, and with the example of the Yoda scene, I am still very uncertain what to make of it.

EDIT: This film intentionally sets out to antagonize people like me. I don’t exactly like that as an elected goal, but I can attempt to perceive and accept it for what it is trying to do. The fact that it jerks me around constantly and makes me feel like a monkey is another category of complaint.

I do like how the prequels’ themes tied into TLJ somewhat. It does a good job of making them feel worthwhile without referencing them specifically, namedrop of Darth Sidious being the sole exception.

My early experience with The Force Awakens was somewhat disappointing, as what I was really hoping for was Luke. The film did well capturing the tone and atmosphere of the original trilogy, though without a great deal of mythical substance. However, the film was a fun ride, if not wholly original, and it ended with the promise of a whole lotta Luke in the next movie.

Now that The Last Jedi has come out, after effectively four years or so of building up Luke Skywalker for me, this new film feels like a slap in the face. I do not mean in terms of the film’s quality, but as a deliberate thematic gesture. I question whether this was the right move to make, as it seems obvious Mark Hamill has, though the film is more or less successful in what it seeks to do in this regard. However, it comes across as deeply incongruous with the films that came before, most strikingly with The Force Awakens itself. It is baffling to me, and seems to betray the story that film was trying to set up. I don’t care about Rey’s parents being nobodies; I rather like that decision. I would have liked to see Snoke be tied into the saga at large in some way, but I don’t really have a problem with him being axed, aside from the incongruity with the storytelling of TFA.
Basically, the Luke stuff is very hard to swallow and feels very wrong for a variety of reasons. And the rest of the movie is dominated by SNL-level humor and ‘Droids’ cartoony silliness. Finn and Rose are grating, and BB8 commandeering an AT-ST is almost on the level of C-3PO in the Geonosian droid factory. The pacing and plot structure is all over the place. If I could edit apart the film into Rey’s story and everyone else’s story, I might be able to digest it a little easier. As much as I dislike Yoda’s visuals, his scene is touching, and goes the furthest to help Luke grow in this film. I still do not really understand how the lesson about accepting and learning from failure leads to Luke’s confrontation at the end. Does anyone else? It seems like he is sacrificing himself so the Resistance can escape, but I am straining to connect the dots to form a throughline with Luke.

Also, this movie suffers greatly in my mind by having several too many fakeouts or misdirections. Having what looks like a spaceship turn out to be an iron in the laundry room is one thing, but the movie contains so many of these that it honestly made me feel like a fucking idiot by the end, and left me almost giving up on trying to understand it. After Kylo Ren’s dialogue about letting the past die and the ship being rammed, the clear implication seemed to be that all the main characters aboard were killed in a stunning narrative mood. (Just kidding; here’s BB8 in an AT-ST.) Finn is about to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance. (Just kidding, you silly goose.) Rose dies. (Just kidding, I guess… I honestly forgot she didn’t die until I saw it again because there’s too much of this going on!)

There’s several of these even in the Yoda scene alone: Luke says he’s going to burn the tree down, then hesitates and seems to feel remorse about having wanted to. Then Yoda blows it up and laughs, confirming to Luke that, no, he was actually right in the first place to burn it down. Luke appears to accept this from Yoda, then becomes very defensive for a second about the Jedi texts. Yoda seems to tell Luke that the texts are better off gone, implying Rey already has what she needs without them. (JUST KIDDING; the Jedi texts are aboard the Falcon at the end in a shot I completely missed after seeing the film twice. What does this shot suggest about the Yoda scene, and Luke’s dialogue ABOUT Rey becoming a Jedi??? Does Luke KNOW she has the texts? Does Yoda?)

This movie makes me feel like I am locked in the house of mirrors and the Joker is laughing at me. They won’t even let me read the novelization until late March. Even if someone explains all these things to me in as best a way as can be done, this movie will always be a problem.

Well, here’s my current ranking of the saga films. (It doesn’t make sense to me to include spin-off or anthology stuff.)

ESB
ANH
ROTJ
TFA
ROTS
TLJ
TPM
AOTC

Thanks, Ridley! That’s all the slowed down shots I needed.

I still need the redone 3PO leg shot, sans widescreen matting, and audio for Maz and Snoke scene with music scaled back for the dialogue. And NeverarGreat needs the Leia deleted scene to recolor.

But that’s it, barring any potential work on Kylo Ren’s hood. 😃

Maybe a fakeout iris to credits as the opera lady screams a note while the horses are trampling the casino.

Right as the movie is about to end, whatever ends up being the last shot, we hear a echoey ghostly voice of Luke saying, “It’s time for The Last Jedi… to end,” immediately prior to the iris to credits.

The edit comes with a complete change log and shouldn’t be hard to navigate.

I think the second and third version of Luke and Ben’s nighttime flashback scene are not different enough.

2nd version: Luke tried to kill him.

3rd version: He was only about to.

I really hate to say it, but I’m liking this movie less and less as time goes on.

I know, right? Hehe

Go for it! I’d love to eat my hat.

How about pepper? The guy sneezes during a cutaway, and it echoes across the landscape.

Which spoiler was it?

It’s not the kind of thing that strikes me as easy, but I am out of my reckoning. 😃

Ridley, don’t feel bad if it’s out of the realm of possibility.

Wow, I just looked this up. Look at this disparity. Roughly same critical reception, markedly lower audience reception.

(edited to fix links)

I will try editing the shot of the girl out of the later scene, but I think Poe looking over like that is a better shot for the firing scene. (It’s reused, sure, but it fits well.)

Also, we have no plans to do FX work on Kylo Ren’s hood in the second Snoke scene; it seems like something out of our reach.

I feel like the ST collectively (so far) feels jarring. TLJ is extremely well written and put together, and successfully executed its apparent goal of subverting what came before (including, no, especially) TFA. However, it does feel like a smartass taking a turn at telling the story (y’know, when people tell a story one sentence at a time).

I feel disappointed that I didn’t get the legendary Luke, and the movie actively wants me to feel that way, so I can’t fault it for that. I was someone who, when they announced they’d be doing 7, 8, and 9, ventured into the post-ROTJ EU to take in the broad strokes of the continuing adventures of the legendary Luke Skywalker. (This trailed off when they announced the EU was no longer canon at all, not that I was expecting them to be beholden to it. I figured they’d probably ignore the EU and contradict whatever they happen to contradict, leaving the EU to deal with it.) Luke is a different character here and the film deliberately thwarts everything that I went into this moving looking forward to. And… it did so in a series of 9 movies with only one left.

If your small town has an apple pie baking contest, and someone submits the best peach cobbler in the world… what do you do? I don’t know, this movie more than any previous one is hard to swallow, by design, which is good and bad which is good. I’ll have to chime in later after a week or more once I can sit with this.