Community Focus Thread 1: The Phantom Menace — Page 6

Well, I’m late to the party. I guess I’ll throw in an idea from my own edit (or at least from v3 and beyond).

One thing I did to fix Episode I’s structural problems was pull a switcheroo. In the theatrical version, we had two scenes that threw the second act off. The first was Amidala’s final conversation with Palpatine on Coruscant, and the scene after is the jedi council’s rejection of Anakin. I decided to switch these two scenes around. Anakin gets rejected first, and Amidala decides to leave for Naboo next. This makes Anakin’s rejection by the council the film’s lowest point. However, it does come with a bit of a caveat: the nighttime skies aren’t very consistent anymore. First, you have the extremely dark blue night during Anakin’s rejection. Then, we go to Amidala’s conversation with Palpatine, where the sun is only just setting. Finally, we arrive back at the landing pad, which is extremely dark blue again. I think there might be a way to fix this through color grading, but I suppose it would be interesting to ask someone who might be more of an expert on this than I am.

I think the simplest way to fix the sky would be to darken the sky for the amidala Palpatine scene and lose the shot of the setting sun. I’ll play around with that.

Edit: I realize now that the scene with Maul And Sidious is shot on the balcony of Palpatiine’s apartment, it’s the exact same railing. I have never noticed that till now.

Interesting!

And I like that idea a lot, Eyepainter.

While we’re on Maul, I wonder if it’s worth replacing his one line of dialogue? The Sith only reveal themselves to the Jedi insofar as it’s a secondary thing that happens in his pursuit of the Queen, and no revenge is had. The Clone Wars has a dearth of possible Maul lines we could work with, and it’s arguably his more canon voice since he’s got hundreds of lines in that as opposed to the single one here.

Another thought following from StarkillerAG’s ideas:

In the invasion scenario, you may want to drop the blockade angle entirely. The blockade has disappeared by the return to Naboo in the finale anyway, replaced with a single droid control ship, as I’ve mentioned before. But having no blockade would also help explain their ship successfully arriving at the surface, albeit deliberately avoiding the occupied city.

If we see a single droid control ship from the beginning (which the Jedi transport isn’t equipped to do anything about anyway), and we also properly identify it as a droid control ship up front, then we open the movie with the Death Star that must be destroyed to save the day.

1. Scenes of invasion (ominous threat building)
2. Droid control ship (tangible target)
3. Queen Amidala must be brought to Coruscant to convince them to help (solution)
4. Queen gets captured (solution in jeopardy)
5. The full plot plays out, with many jeopardies for the Queen: Capture and recovery, hyperdrive forcing them off path, being hunted by Maul, etc
6. Anakin is discovered (not yet revealed as alternative solution)
7. Queen arrives at Coruscant, pleas rejected (rejection of solution, low hope)
8. Return to Naboo and new plan (new solution)
9. New plan fails (lowest hope)
10. Anakin destroys control ship (suprise solution, victory)

A handful of semi-related thoughts:

1. Maul has two lines in the movie and I think both could be more compellingly replaced by TCW lines, and perhaps even a few dubbed in when his mouth isn’t onscreen to make him slightly more talkative. I like poetic TCW Maul better than mute TPM Maul.

2. I like that new structure! I wonder if there’s a way of keeping more of the original scenes, though - maybe the Jedi are going to the Droid Control Ship first to either end the invasion diplomatically, or they think the Queen is being held there, depending on dialogue options. It could even be a deliberate trap for them to go there first, since Sidious would know the Senate has dispatched Jedi to go there and rescue the Queen.

3. With the “blockade becomes a single ship” thing, could we a) add more ships in the background in the later scene, and b) add a coloured stripe to the main Droid Control Ship to differentiate it? That way, Obi-Wan* can say “that’s the control ship” and the line serves a dual purpose.

Edit: I started typing this before Eddie had published his comment. I like the idea of removing all the other ships at the start better.

4. What work has been done in the past to cut the victory celebration at the end? I enjoy that scene just fine and I get that it’s a mirror of ANH, but it feels weird to go from this uneasy ending where things are left on a very mixed note to a huge “hooray, we did it!” ending. I personally like the idea of the final shot lingering on Palpatine by the pyre, but I can’t imagine the iris out or musical cue would work for that.

*Or whoever says it, I rewatched the movie a few days ago but I don’t remember that detail.

In regards to the Sith revealing themself, I would like to make Mace a little doubtful of their reappearance. Maybe change his dialogue to something like this: “It looks like the mysterious warrior was a Sith.” (Yoda) “If they really returned.”
This would hit the same chord as Madam Jocasta’s remark about the Jedi Archives in AOTC.

CaptainFaraday said:

2. I like that new structure! I wonder if there’s a way of keeping more of the original scenes, though - maybe the Jedi are going to the Droid Control Ship first to either end the invasion diplomatically, or they think the Queen is being held there, depending on dialogue options. It could even be a deliberate trap for them to go there first, since Sidious would know the Senate has dispatched Jedi to go there and rescue the Queen.

Maybe Gunray could tell the Jedi that they have the Queen on board to lure them into a trap?
This would make him more active and less dependent on Sidious.

Peter Pan said:

CaptainFaraday said:

2. I like that new structure! I wonder if there’s a way of keeping more of the original scenes, though - maybe the Jedi are going to the Droid Control Ship first to either end the invasion diplomatically, or they think the Queen is being held there, depending on dialogue options. It could even be a deliberate trap for them to go there first, since Sidious would know the Senate has dispatched Jedi to go there and rescue the Queen.

Maybe Gunray could tell the Jedi that they have the Queen on board to lure them into a trap?
This would make him more active and less dependent on Sidious.

That’s a good idea. Is there Gunray dialogue we could repurpose?

I’m also wondering if there’s any Liam Neeson dialogue from other movies that could be used to help sell it all - surely he talks about traps or similar in one of his action/thriller movies.

EddieDean said:

Interesting!

And I like that idea a lot, Eyepainter.

While we’re on Maul, I wonder if it’s worth replacing his one line of dialogue? The Sith only reveal themselves to the Jedi insofar as it’s a secondary thing that happens in his pursuit of the Queen, and no revenge is had. The Clone Wars has a dearth of possible Maul lines we could work with, and it’s arguably his more canon voice since he’s got hundreds of lines in that as opposed to the single one here.

I personally deleted that scene in my edit, and my reasoning is because it didn’t offer much to the film aside from looking pretty. I may have to watch the scene again, but from what I remember, most of it is pretty much bad guys saying saturday morning cartoon lines. I think the reason it was kept in (theatrically) is because it’s one of the few moments where we see Maul and Palpatine together, but most of the exposition isn’t all that important in the long run. Do we really need to know so badly that Darth Maul will find the jedi quickly? Or that he’s after the queen? Or that he’s well-trained? For me, that stuff is explained already in other scenes, so it comes across as repetitive.

“The uploaded has not made this video available in your country”

What’s the bigger Joke, the Joke or the Joke that follows?

CaptainFaraday said:

Peter Pan said:

CaptainFaraday said:

2. I like that new structure! I wonder if there’s a way of keeping more of the original scenes, though - maybe the Jedi are going to the Droid Control Ship first to either end the invasion diplomatically, or they think the Queen is being held there, depending on dialogue options. It could even be a deliberate trap for them to go there first, since Sidious would know the Senate has dispatched Jedi to go there and rescue the Queen.

Maybe Gunray could tell the Jedi that they have the Queen on board to lure them into a trap?
This would make him more active and less dependent on Sidious.

That’s a good idea. Is there Gunray dialogue we could repurpose?

I’d suggest cutting the little exchange between Qui-gon and the pilot and redubbing her to say something explaining that they’re ambassadors sent to escort Amidala to coruscant. Then we could alter Gunray’s response to “Yes of course. The Queen and I would be happy to receive the ambassadors.”

Oh man, you’re totally right, there are LOADS of great Queen-related lines! I’ll try to compile all the clips ASAP.

Peter Pan said:

“The uploaded has not made this video available in your country”

What’s the bigger Joke, the Joke or the Joke that follows?

The original video was Weird Al’s song The Saga Begins. It’s a parody of the song American Pie, with the lyrics changed to be about the plot of TPM. The crawl Sade posted was the first verse of that song.

sade1212 said:

To really cut to the chase and centre the movie around Anakin, you could begin on Tatooine, with the party having just met him. In order to pull this off you’d need to substantially alter the opening crawl to convey the events of the now-excised first act. Perhaps something like this:

EPISODE I
THE PHANTOM MENACE
A long, long time ago, in a galaxy
far away, Naboo was under an attack.
And I thought me and Qui-Gon Jinn
could talk the FEDERATION in to
maybe cutting them a little slack.
But their response, it didn’t thrill us.
They locked the doors and tried to
kill us. We escaped from that gas,
then met Jar Jar and Boss Nass.
We took a bongo from the scene,
and we went to Theed, to see the
queen. We all wound up on TATOOINE.
That’s where we found this boy.

I’ve been managing to watch like, twenty minutes of the movie a day but keep getting interrupted. Once I finally finish I’ll post something that’s not a stupid joke.

This is perfect for the worst edit ideas thread.

StarkillerAG said:

Peter Pan said:

“The uploaded has not made this video available in your country”

What’s the bigger Joke, the Joke or the Joke that follows?

The original video was Weird Al’s song The Saga Begins. It’s a parody of the song American Pie, with the lyrics changed to be about the plot of TPM. The crawl Sade posted was the first verse of that song.

Ahh, that explains why the crawl rhyme, I was both wondering about that and really impressed with Sade.

Looks like it’ll take me about an hour per remaining Jar Jar episode of TCW to cut them into the sources video, so I’m going to pace myself on that. But Bombad Jedi is done, though not yet rendered.

Looking over the voices, a lot are very clean, and there’s absolutely loads that could be useful to us.

• A good few "I"s and "I’m"s to replace "Mesa"s.
• A lot of more formal language that could also tighten him up, or imply a prior relationship with the Queen: “My lady”, “It’sa pleasure to be seeing yousa.” “Mesa hopin so, milady.” “Mesa never let anything happen to you, Queenie.”
• Quotes which show genuine agency and give him more character: “We musta having try and saving her.” “We can do it!” “Don’t be fearing, Padmé, wesa coming.” “Hang on, my Lady” "“Millions will be starving and dying without your help.” “Mesa won’t let you down.” “Thinking! Nosa thinking. Mesa thinking Padme would help us, has helped us, big time. Wesa gota to help her now.” “Mesa not lettin that happen, milady.” “Mesa need to save the Queenie!” “Mesa understands.”
• Quotes relating to helping out: “Mesa saved you.” “If these droids attacking us, Padmé’s probably in trouble!” “Oh, it’sa nothing.” “Ani, mesa have an idea.” “Mesa proposing-” “Mesa friends can help.”
• Quotes which could help him identify Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and their introductions: “Thatsa Jedi robe” “Jedi? Where’sa Jedi?” “I’m just a Gungan.” “Mesa doing my best.” “Disa Jedi is mesa pallo, hesa comin here to be helpin mesa solve your troubles.” “Uh, mesa not big with the Force. Yousa got the wrong Gungan.” “Maxi big the Force, Masterin [Mace], but howsa we gonna find the Queenie? She’s still a prisoner.”
• Other good quotes: “Theysa won’t be recognising me.” “I made a very good friend.” “Begging your highness, whatsa he doing here?” “Oh, yesa, my lady. He give mui fiery speeches, blaming Naboo for everything. Mesa say it couldn’t be true.” “Thesa Gungans are proud. With thisa mood at the moment, mesa the last person they listen to now.” “Well, mesa more of a deep thinker.” “Mesa think yousa have to deal” “Queenie, but yousa let mesa handle dis, I promise da Jedi Master will besa no trouble for you.” “Mesa no bombad warrior, but mesa swearin to find yousa Queenie” “Okeday! Wesa make a bombad team” “Mesa need to be brave.” “Whysa you thinkin they want Queenie so badly?”

Of particular note are quotes I think could help sell the angle where Jar Jar is already a representative and their native local guide:

• “Meesa on a diplomatic mission.”
• “Representative Binks of Naboo.”
• “Mesa Representative Binks of the Republic Senate and hesa with mesa.”
• “Yup! The Queen is mesa pallo. Mesa knowin her for a longo time.”
• “Queenie was me bombad pallo for many years. Shesa knew there be troubles here. Dats why she calling mesa to helpin in your time of need.”
• “But wesa must hurry. That city, itsa mooie big. Wesa have to move fast”
• “Mesa bet they’re bringing the Queenie this way.” [good for the scene where they drop in and save her?]

CaptainFaraday said:

2. I like that new structure! I wonder if there’s a way of keeping more of the original scenes, though - maybe the Jedi are going to the Droid Control Ship first to either end the invasion diplomatically, or they think the Queen is being held there, depending on dialogue options. It could even be a deliberate trap for them to go there first, since Sidious would know the Senate has dispatched Jedi to go there and rescue the Queen.

I’m wondering, Faraday, what do you think would be the advantages of retaining those scenes? In terms of character development, the two parties (Jedi and Neimoidians) don’t meet there - the Jedi are simply attacked by droids before they flee. I think the negative of including them is that it means the Jedi stumble into the plot, rather than have a more exciting/interesting rescue mission, and the first (chronological) time we see the Jedi they get easily overwhelmed by these corny cheap robots. If we trim them, and set the Jedi on the planet deliberately, their first action scenes show them handily dealing with a few droids in the forest to protect Jar Jar, then successfully saving Padmé from her prison escort, then successfully handling a hangarful of droids - all escalating evidence of martial competence. Other than showing a bit of Neimoidian fear at having the Jedi onboard, which is valuable but seen again elsewhere, the Neimoidian shots don’t require the Jedi there, and the Jedi scene could be placed on their transport, as suggested by StarkillerAG.

Without a dialogue rework, having them leave for the surface without confirming that the Queen isn’t on board (they haven’t searched it, or accessed its databanks, etc) might make their leaving seem indifferent - and you might also need a dialogue rework to have them suprised when they do actually find her in Theed.

Just spitballing the Jar Jar/Jedi introduction, you might be able to do something like this:

[Jar Jar is saved by Qui-Gon, and gets up]
JJ: Whassa dat?
JJ: [noticing Qui-Gon walking away] Hey wait! Thatsa Jedi robe.
[Jar Jar walks after Qui-Gon, cut to them walking in the forest]
JJ: Mesa Representative Binks.
QG: You almost got us killed, are you brainless?
JJ: Mesa a deep thinker.
QG: The ability to [think] does not make you intelligent, [get us] out of here.
JJ: Uh, mesa no big with the force, but yousa let mesa handle dis.
QG: That won’t be necessary.
JJ: The Queen is me pallo. Mesa knowin her a longo time.
[A droid pursues Obi-Wan and is dispatched by Qui-Gon]
QG: You saved my again!
OW: What’s this?
QG: A local, now let’s get out of here before more droids show up.

Eddie - I generally try and retain as much as possible, especially with TPM, which as you said yourself can easily get edited down significantly shorter than all the other SW movies if you’re not careful. So anywhere it could theoretically be retained, I’m trying to probe for a way to do it (then, people have greater flexibility with what changes they want to include, and how much of the runtime it bites out of the movie). I agree that the scenes are hardly necessary, especially in this new version of events.

Eddie again - I think a different line would have to go before “That won’t be necessary,” since leaving it to Jar Jar is what he just asked Jar Jar to do. Other than that, I can’t wait to see this cut together, I can’t believe how well it all fits.

Omni - That’s a great idea.

CaptainFaraday said:

Eddie - I generally try and retain as much as possible, especially with TPM, which as you said yourself can easily get edited down significantly shorter than all the other SW movies if you’re not careful. So anywhere it could theoretically be retained, I’m trying to probe for a way to do it (then, people have greater flexibility with what changes they want to include, and how much of the runtime it bites out of the movie). I agree that the scenes are hardly necessary, especially in this new version of events.

That makes a lot of sense. Worthy probing! I also fall on the side of preserving as much as possible, so it feels like a Star Wars movie in length. The more I watch TPM, which I’ve done a few times this month, the more I think there’s genuinely a decent core there. I feel like it needs four main fixes:

1. Focus. Seriously, give the audience something exciting to hook onto. There’s good stuff in there - highlight it.
2. The opening. Same as point 1, get it started with a bang. The middle section’s all pretty good (give or take the usual trims), and the ending delivers nicely, so get the momentum high and keep it going till you hit the decent worldbuilding and character work of the Tattooine content. I think this mainly means keeping the characters in focus and with clear motivations, and thinking about pacing and the drip-feed of information. (So trimming the start might be one of very few actual ommissions of scenes I’d propose.)
3. Jar Jar. Specifically (now I’ve thought about it a lot) treating his passivity as his biggest failing. Make him at least seem to care. But tighten up the idiocy while we’re at it.
4. The structure of the ending. It has to deliver the lowest lows followed by the highest highs, which is mainly an issue of ordering. (And personally I’d treat the Gungans as the least important plot there, so maybe cutting that down would be my second major trim.)

Of course, that’s on top of the usual trims to common frustrations, which includes a bunch of more subjective tweaks, but by and large a hundred editors have shown us how to smoothly cut around them. I feel like TPM had so many obvious issues (exemplified by Jar Jar smelling a fart, how funny), that it distracted from a few of the more fundamental ones. But now that it’s been edited to death, and by and large there are solutions to all of those cringes, it clears a path for us to think a bit more clearly about some of the underlying stuff. (That’s not to say that other editors haven’t tackled the core, though, of course they have.)

The youtube video posted earlier, “How Star Wars was saved in the edit”, feels like the right approach to take here - preserve what you can, structuring it in the most compelling way and with the best context.

Omni said:

• If you, like me, wish to remove both the moment that the fake Queen orders Padmé to go clean R2 and the scene where she actually is cleaning him and meets Jar Jar, you only miss two things:

1. The first part of a small subplot where Panaka gets impatient/distrustful with the Jedi
2. Padmé’s name.

The first one doesn’t matter very much, is arguably even good since there’s no payoff anyway, but the second one can be a big problem. We’d only learn her name when Anakin seeks her out in Coruscant before he’s rejected by the Jedi, which is a bit too late for us to gain a degree of intimacy we should already have with her character.

Here’s a thought - what if we just cut the first scene, but preserve the second? What if Padmé’s cleaning R2 just because she feels like it, rather than being ordered? She’s Queen, so she can do as she pleases, and she’s not exactly busy with official business. This way, one of the first things she’d do when given a bit of liberty is choose to clean up a little robot - hinting at both her humility and compassion (similar to Rey with BB8) and her interest in droids (and perhaps mechanics).

One of the weaker plot points in the prequels is Padmé and Anakin’s romance, and one of the weaker plot points in TPM is the connection that Padmé and Anakin seem to develop that isn’t exactly well explored on screen. But if she has a natural interest in droids (and mechanics), that could help show why she’s drawn to Anakin when she sees he’s built (or repaired) his own, C-3PO. It’s arguably one of the better scenes relating to their character development together in this film (as much as people tend to skip it because it’s world-shrinking). And showing her compassion (plus highlighting it in the crawl, if you like) also shows why she’s drawn to a boy who acts so selflessly.