Ronster

I had recently discovered the unused / deleted music for the Empire Strikes Back and had never known so much music was cut out of the film and although many of the cut's I have to say I agree with I could not help feel that a bit too much had been cut away and not to mention some small differences I noticed of better start and stop points for the score.

So I have put together some demo videos of what I felt should have been kept. But I also want to say that I would like to encourage others if they feel like it to chip in and do demo's of what they felt should have been kept also. So If you like I don't want to command this thread as my own project but that anyone can have a go and a say if they so wish.

Basically I viewed the unused / deleted score as often interfering but in some instances where it does not I wanted to restore these sections but also try to maintain Kershners intensity. By no means am I saying my mock ups are final decisions of what is best as peoples opinions differ. But I have had a go at trying to bring more Williams score into the films scenes without ruining Kershners intentions.

So first off check this page for the deleted score in it's entireity.

http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/the-empire-strikes-back-restored-music/

Then check the original film or the special edition.

Ok now for some edits.

Echo Base

Link Deleted

What I did. Simply started the music a bit sooner when Han shakes hands with the general. This is actually where the theme starts.

Hoth Search

Link Deleted

What I did. I included the music where Luke collapses in the snow, and I also added the transition sting for when we cut back to echo base. I am not actually to sure about this last one (I also thought about moving this cue to when the door actually slams shut to give that more emphasis) but I really feel the music when Luke collapses a dead cert as should not have been cut. I also think that I should have cut it a bit sooner losing the timpani hit. a second attempt on this I think is needed.

Probe Droid

http://vimeo.com/101691213

What I did. ah this is complicated much flitting back between the original and the scored version but I really like the way it came out. Would never dream of replacing the concert imperial march though. That has to stay in my opinion.

Meet Yoda

http://vimeo.com/101691388

What I did. Simple and fun actually a one note rescore in there but repeated the playful theme and started the last cue a couple of seconds earlier this is where the theme actually starts. I think it's simple and nice.

Mynocks!

http://vimeo.com/101691604

I really like the imperial march rather than the silence perhaps kershner felt this was over used but it is short and sweet and I think if the deleted scenes were present then it would definitely not feel over used but this is my concern on this one as much as I like it. Included mysterious sting for Leias first glimpse of a Mynock. And changed Han's Blaster to the correct sound just because I felt like it. but I also went this far in the footage so as to associate that sound with the Mynocks that is heard when Leia first makes a spot.

Luke Training

http://vimeo.com/101691799

Started the score a bit earlier on "no, no there is no why.." Simply because I feel that it transitions into dark side cave a lot better. all other additions I kept scrapped.

The Duel Part 1

http://vimeo.com/101691905

I kept the score going until Vader delivers his line and I had the idea a while back was unsure if it would work but yes It works ever so well and I think it's just perfect this way. you can feel the drop off after Vader delivers the line and really creates a lot more tension.

Han to the Rescue and North Ridge I decided any unused / deleted music was best kept that way in these 2 instances

I plan to do a few more, but I would like to discuss the deleted score and I would also like to see other peoples edits of what they think also. As it's open to interpretation. If you think that the soundtrack is perfect as is I am cool with that but this is a discussion about trying to figure out the best way to restore more Williams music and disputing should so much have been cut? And has it even been cut short in some theme instances which I think I have spotted 2 of those so far.


So if you just want to share an idea or share an audio score edit please do so as I think many people are interested in John Williams original unused score and what can be taken from it to perhaps further improve the film. But please no alternative cues like the snow speeders take flight or the alternative intro cues as these are unuseable and impossible in any edit unless you use that music in another scene for instance. But I wanted to focus more on restoration than anything radical with this.

ah I see so it all depends on what s.wade picks... This could be quite an easy choice or a tough one.

yeah well done but what is the first and second prizes?

Or is it something i mossef? I am not jelous enough yet....:)

well the workprint review mentioned restored score from this year but that does not mean that will be any because it is a wip. But it sureley has been considered but perhaps a decision was made to not put any back... And i can understand that as much of the deleted score is a bit overdone or over the top. It needs quite a bit of taming and chopping out chunks so as to compliment and not interfere.

@Darth Lucus "you've done a man's job sir"

I am not disputing any decisions about music. But deleted score is totally different to adding prequel music. I can't see any downfalls if the right choices are made and since i heard the deleted score when i get some spare time i am going to start a thread about it and do some demo's because kershner although mostly right went a bit too far with the audio cuts to score. But he did a great job on the most part but theres "moments" that should not have been lost.

And some of those "moments" you might struggle to tell the difference

brash_stryker said:

fgqb#19nyj said:

There won't be any changes in music, correct? In other words, no need for a Purist Edition, too?

 Correct.

 Will there be any additional music that was cut?

Since hearing the deleted score from the soundtrack there are some real gems in there and it's not so much extra music it's more about scoring from the logical point and in some cases creating a new start and stop point.

Thing is you can go for an intense film and have silence but it can still be just as intense or more so with music or stings.

Luke entering the carbon freeze chamber is possibly the best example. In the original it is silent with sound effects and then vader speaks. The deleted score creates a great atmosphere but ultimateley ruins what vader says with a big piano hit. But if you took the best of both it would be scored up until vader speaks and his voice cut's the air and the soundtrack away. That would give luke to the pit of our stomachs and feel as he would standing there. Get me?

I think Kershner cut away about 10 to 20% too much score it's not much but some of it matters whilst most of it does not.

Posessed Leland plot?

]

This was a great part of the second series IMO

First season was totally sparkling

I thought about what you said before you posted and perhaps the shield was not activated.

But I am in the same camp that I think the probe travelled a long way before reaching the planet.

Here is the excerpt from the script weather you count it as canon or not

EXT. GALAXY - PLANET HOTH

A Star Destroyer moves through space, releasing Imperial probe robots
from its underside.

One of these probes zooms toward the planet Hoth and lands on its ice-
covered surface. An explosion marks the point of
impact.

The 4th draft by Kasdan which is the "shooting script" does not have this excerpt it starts with Luke on Snow lizard or Taun Taun.

The fith draft is unavailable but was an edit of the fourth draft from page 136 on wards which finalized just before shooting started. there eere a 3 further subsequent revisions to the 5th draft whilst during shooting. seeing as the opening with the star destroyer is all special effects based. I also going to say this sort of thing has Mr Lucus stamp all over it rather than Kasdan

I think they bodged up on the script in this part as they changed it probably whilst production had started but never bothered to join the dots with the leap back in time.

Or they had no other way of doing it.

It seems that way to me unless Somone can shed more light on it.

I always felt the star destroyer at the beginning was by itself as a lone searcher and later the fleet grouped up to deploy but I never thought it was very close. Perhaps a system of planets can be huge and we are right to perceive it is nowhere near the 6th planet of hoth system

The script says the star destroyer is in the hoth system.....

I always thought it was far away... Hope that clears it up for you. What do you think?

Yes all very interesting mac to see different points of view...

I have a question and I would hope someone might know the answer.

At what point was the opening changed? The opening shot was meant to be Luke on the taun taun and the opening crawl over the icy landscape..

So the plan was not to reveal planet hoth until later but they changed their minds..For better or worse. But was it changed after shooting actors had wrapped?

Apparently it is from the 3rd draft of script, but did'nt a scriptwriter also die during production?

So when was 3rd draft I guess it was pre production?

Ok done a bit of investigation it was pre-production. I also checked the Kasdan shooting script and the script only mentions a single probe that lands on hoth. So It's quite a curiosity from script to screen also.

I Think muddy has a good point but it's clearly the same impact shown twice which is what stops it feeling like a different probe crashing.

And although this is a bit of a radical idea i don't feel it is confusing
when you watch the movie casino you don't need to see a picture of the planet eartht to know that is set on earth. So you would simply be fading through two very different landscapes. Although as Tim said the viewer may struggle to interpret the shift between planets the reveal of Hoth would come a lot later better conveying the rebels hiding and the empire not knowing where they are. as it is now it feels like they find them straight off the bat and does little to convey that they really "don't know" a bit forced if you like.

What I am trying to say is that revealing the external view of the planet the rebels are hiding on at the start does not help hold any mystery from the viewer of the films stand point and I think it does not work all that well in allowing the viewer to partake in the discovery of the secret base as events unfold.

Angway it is only an edit idea.

Empire strikes back.

Should the probe droid hit another planet entirely? And then we get to see Luke spot the probe that lands on Hoth of which he thinks is a meteroite.

Although I liked an edit by Davnes who is an active member here on OT.com I felt that doing it the way that Davnes did it (Davnes had one probe only and Luke see's it land but we see the pre cursor of it entering the atmosphere) messes with the music so I personally would opt for another planet and then cut to luke riding taun taun across the icy plains of Hoth.


I did these mock ups a while back so here is a rough idea of what I had in mind

Would it make the universe feel bigger? Is it better to not see the same probe crash twice? Does it feel a bit too lucky and should we see some of the failed search rather than joining the empires search straight to success and experience it twice? was it like this because of Budget restraints? I hope this sparlks a bit of discussion...

I would really like tk be one of the testers and give you an honest feedback but i don't have the time at the moment due to work and being flat out.

I doubt you will struggle to find people to test it but I may find the time to do this next week if that is suitable for you and there is no rush depending on how things pan out I will PM you

I had a quick look through the 2004 DVD menu's for the special edition again yesterday and I was on the Hoth themed Menu for the chapter selection which is set in the Wampa's Lair.

Now if you select an new set of chapters the screen scrolls across with a Wampa in the foreground and then it struck me. Would that small animation of the Wampa be good enough for the brief glimpse like in the original film. What is good about it is that in the Menu Wampa it is a foreground object but if it was used to recreate the original scene it would be a background object behind ice pillars.

Anyway I am only saying this to help cut down workload as then there would only be one shot left to fix for the Wampa if this piece of footage was "Good Enough"???

It certainly moves a lot better than in the original although it would need slowing down so I will leave that there as a potential good spot and if it helps then great if not no problems just trying to help it get there quicker. Not that you need my help.

Watched Mean Streets last night.

I have not seen it before and had it on the shelf for about a year. Thoroughly enjoyed it and I'll say if you have not seen it go get it and watch it. Great soundtrack and great acting.

Well worth a watch if you like human stories.

^ Yeah that trailer is really good I also really like the vivaldi trailer for Empire Strikes Back also. At the end of the Vivaldi teaser there is this image of Vader against the star field like he is looking out the window but it's like we are seeing his reflection off of glass or something. And as the image fades there is this really cool sort of reverb added to his final breath before the trailer ends.

I think that is such an iconic image that ever since I first saw it, it has stuck with me and also kinda feels a bit scary or spooky. I would love to see this somehow make it in to ESB:R on one of the shots where Vader is looking out the window as a homage to the trailer and the artful way that this shot was put together. I just think it is perhaps one of the best depictions of Vader, and because he is sort of transparent it makes him sort of etherial but also dark and evil shrouded in the shadow and blackness of space.

There are some really nice shots in the ESB:R trailer of which you can see nowhere else.

Also am I right in saying that the music at the very start of the ESB:R Trailer although scored by John Williams was never in the movie?

No Arguments here J or Brash, I have always seen it that way that Vader was changing the method and stakes of an already existing Bounty so I am just questionable as you are coming from the way I have always seen it.

One thing that is one of the things that makes these movies quite special is how people can see things in different ways. Let's celebrate that and not argue about it :)

I am not discounting how you see it just because it's different and If I am seeing it wrong from your perspective then just leave me alone in that little Bubble then. No Issues here at all If you don't see it the same as I do I certainly don't feel heated about it.

Tobar said:

Ronster said:

Jaitea said:

.......wait a second Ronster,.....don't forget Boba is working for Jabba also,.....he wouldn't consider shooting at the Falcon......one his few lines in the film...."What if he doesn't survive, he's worth a lot to me"

J

 I thought Han already had a death warrant out on him and Vaders new Bounty was in conflict with the Jabba Bounty?

 Jabba wanted him alive, hence Boba's line. Vader only wants to use Han and Leia to draw out Luke. He's willing to give up Han to Boba because he knows as long as he has Leia Luke will eventually come for her.

Well they should have got Tommy Lee Jones involved sooner to go after him then :)



No but seriously I think he must have been wanted dead or alive as Han also says "If I don't Pay off Jabba the Hutt I am a dead man" Boba line which Jaita has quite rightly pointed out could possibly mean that he was worth more Bounty alive than dead. I'm not changing my perspective as I prefer the darker gritty realism of my take it makes it better for me to see it this way. or if he does not pay up "Capture" or "Kill Him" which is evident in Greedo's scene. Anyway it matters not Dead or Alive Jabba does not seem to care much for others lives either. Otherwise it's a silly plot point if everyone want's him only captured alive, The dialogue is contradicting and it makes little sense.

Wait a minute.. I think that Boba fett line about "What if he does not survive..." If Boba cannot present Jabba with either an alive or normally dead version of Han he would struggle politically to claim the bounty. If Han dies in the Carbon freeze chamber it would be not through his doing and would be unable to claim any reward for this Bounty the only way he could get a bounty from Han would be dependent on him surviving the process and being allowed to take him incarcerated.

Jaitea said:

.......wait a second Ronster,.....don't forget Boba is working for Jabba also,.....he wouldn't consider shooting at the Falcon......one his few lines in the film...."What if he doesn't survive, he's worth a lot to me"

J

 I thought Han already had a death warrant out on him and Vaders new Bounty was in conflict with the Jabba Bounty?

Perhaps that is why Vader say "I want them Alive" as he is more than likely had to offer a higher Bounty than Jabba to get what he want's knowing full well if trying to catch them alive was to go wrong the bounty hunters would get paid anyway on the death warrant. So like I said I don't think bounty hunters / assassins / killers have a clean cut job as what may happen can be unpredictable they also have to defend themselves

But the orders Vader gives suggests Boba had previously been given orders not to kill his bounties and did. So he did not follow orders and had to be warned specifically not to disintegrate this particular bounty and was very clearly like I let you off the last time you did that.

But if you like to think of Boba fett as someone who just flies around the galaxy following orders and that bounty hunter assassinations are as clean cut as what you make them out to be then ok. It does not mean I think it's got anything to do with the idea I had anymore it's got more to do with how people percieve an assassin / killer and how taking a target alive is not quite that simple especially if you are spotted following your target and that target is a much more powerful ship. I wanted to put how I see it in context not about the small idea. Perhaps it's better in the original that the guns are aimed from the get go. But we can't see them very well Is the main point weather they should move to aim or not forget about it. we can't see the guns in a defined manner is what I am saying. I wanted to make them more noticeable. It's a dangerous game bounty hunting is it not.

Just to get people going some more I'm going to throw in the double whammy of moving parts on ships. So I'm not sure if it's a feature supported by the falcon as we never see it move but I always wanted to see it move. When the falcon is clamped to the back of the star destroyer in this sequence what if it's dish was moving suggesting the sensor jamming capabilities of the falcon. On the close up shot. That would explain how it was hidden too but I don't know if it can actually rotate or even move.

I can see your point but I was thinking of it more in terms of like you said he has it all planned out, but as he takes aim he stops himself from his run of the mill compulsiveness because of what he was told not to do "I want them alive"

so I was trying to convey that.

as it is in the original it just looks like he is just following them without any thought of blowing them up.

I had another Idea today and I thought I would share it here for fun and not expecting anything to come of it either. But I will say I think it's a good idea and I am not trying to delay The release of the edit at all but here goes.

Ok I watched the sequence of Boba Fett chasing the falcon through the junk and I thought about when Slave 1 passes close by the camera as in the shot above. What if it's guns rotated from pointed downward to forward as if he was contemplating destroying the falcon at this time but he did not because Vader told him "No disintergrations" if you look at the original shot it's actually very hard to make out the guns on the ship. So as a simple addition to this shot was to see a 2D animation of very clearly defined guns on Slave 1 rotating to aim (with the correct perspective added to match the model)

And It's no biggie but it's a small touch that says quite a lot rather than a simple pursuit through a junk field.

As the hyperspace jump has been cancelled that he makes in the version on facebook is there a chance that you will keep the timimg the way It is but Keep a first time viewer guessing if he stops/halts in the junk cutting off pursuit?

I posted here a while ago about The making of The Keep.

Well I know it's not about the keep film rips or video as such but If you like this film then the documentary now appears to be entering it's final stages with the promotional website launching on 1st August.

https://www.facebook.com/wwiifairytale

I am really looking forward to this, as there really is very little info on this mysterious yet visually striking film.

So that's a quick heads up to any fan's of the Keep.