theprequelsrule

I think Mando works because it seems inspired by the same source material as the OT was, whereas all these other series seem to be “inspired” by the OT. So they just feel like poorly executed copies.

Perhaps exploited is a better term then inspired.

In my humble opinion this series has, all things considered, veered into prequel or even fan film level quality; really bad stuff.

This series looks and feels like a KJ Anderson 90s EU project brought to life.

I thought the portrayal of Vader was well done. Ewan is boring as Obi-wan and is essentially playing TLJ Luke it seems.

Overall I am enjoying it mostly because of the cheesy 90s feel. But don’t mistake this for a quality product.

Servii said:

I’ve revised my Sequel Trilogy concept.

The Galactic Civil War continued for another 2 decades after Endor, becoming a long, grinding effort to drive back what was left of the Empire. At last, the receding Empire sued for peace with the Republic, with the resulting treaty favoring the Republic and ensuring the Empire could never reclaim its lost territory.

An extremist splinter faction of the Empire, calling themselves the First Order, refused to accept the treaty and launched a surprise attack into Republic space. The First Order was able to devastate the Republic world Mon Calamari before being pushed back by a joint Republic-Empire force. Emperor Roan Fel denounced the First Order as traitors, and aided the Republic in pursuing the First Order into deep space.

Going against the cautionary advice of his uncle Luke, young Jedi Knight Ben Solo joined this military effort, demanding justice for the lives lost on Mon Calamari. Ben quickly rose to the status of war hero as he became a key player in the battles along the edges of the Unknown Regions. The First Order fought with fanaticism, being pushed back planet by planet at a steep cost to both sides.

Then, out of nowhere, the First Order seemingly abandoned the war, and vanished into the Unknown Regions. Ben then spent the next few years working alongside Republic Special Ops officer Poe Dameron to explore and chart the Unknown Regions and track down the First Order fleet. Poe was eventually recalled back to Coruscant, leaving Ben to continue his search alone.

Ben finally discovers where they fled to: the old Imperial prison world of Belsavis. Strangely, the First Order doesn’t fire on his ship when he arrives, instead hailing him and telling him that he is expected at a specific location on the planet. Ben goes along with this, sensing no trap or deception, and arrives at the most heavily locked down place on the planet. A First Order officer greets him as he lands, but Ben notes that something seems off about him, as though he’s not acting of his own free will. The strange officer leads him into the deepest part of the prison, to meet with their new leader. Someone who had been kept in bodily stasis there for several decades, per Emperor Palpatine’s orders.

His name? Jedi Master Jorus C’baoth.

Palpatine considered C’baoth a potential asset due to his unusually powerful battle meditation, and instead of killing him, had him imprisoned and kept in semi-conscious stasis as a form of torture, hoping to break his will and make him serve the Empire. C’baoth never broke, and had remained in stasis all those years after Palpatine’s death. But in his confined state, his mental Force powers grew, until he was able to not just influence people, but outright destroy a person’s identity and enslave their mind to his will. When the First Order fleet arrived over Belsavis, C’baoth sensed their coming, and mentally subjugated their highest ranking members, essentially turning the faction into his own personal army.

Ben spoke with C’baoth for a long time, learning from him about the ancient history of the Jedi and Sith. The two Jedi spoke long on morality and philosophy, and C’baoth showed Ben the remains of dead planets, devastated long ago in the Great Hyperspace War. He led Ben to the same conclusion he had reached: that as long as the Jedi existed, a new Sith would inevitably reemerge, and the resulting war would devastate the galaxy, as had happened many times before. From Ben, C’baoth learns about Luke Skywalker and his new Jedi academy on Yavin IV. C’baoth condemns the new Jedi Order as folly. “It may take 50 years,” C’baoth declared. “It may take 1000 years. It does not matter. This new Order will one day breed a new Sith. It should never have been founded.”

C’baoth then made clear to Ben his plans for the galaxy. He intended to use the First Order to seize control of the Empire, and then sweep across the galaxy, forcefully unifying it under his leadership. The concept of individual freedom would be annihilated. All other Force users would be compelled to sever their own connection to the Force or be put to death. Having found Ben Solo, the heir of Darth Vader, the final piece of C’baoth’s plan was complete, and he could begin his power play.

This is where Episode VII begins. In this rewrite, rather than revering Darth Vader, Ben Solo takes up the mantle of Lord Vader as a calculated move to assert his legitimacy to the Empire. Wearing a mask and suit largely modeled after Vader’s, but modified in several ways to suit his own body, he leads a First Order surprise attack on the Imperial capital world of Bastion. Fighting his way past the Emperor’s elite guards, he hunts down and fatally wounds Emperor Fel before declaring himself publically as Lord Vader and the rightful ruler of the Empire. He then gives an impassioned speech calling for renewed war against the Republic, and the restoration of Imperial authority over the Galactic Core.

The surviving members of the Emperor’s guard are given a choice: kneel or die. Most of them submit to the new Vader, and many stormtroopers on the planet join them, while many others remain loyal to Fel. Civil war breaks out in the streets before the pro-Vader faction secures control of Bastion. Amid the chaos, a small contingent of loyalist stormtroopers break into the Imperial Palace and rescue the badly wounded Emperor. Once it becomes clear that the battle is lost, these troopers attempt to shuttle the dying Emperor off of the planet to safe territory, but their ship is severely damaged as it tries to escape, losing its hyperdrive. The ship is then pursued across space by TIE fighters before being shot down and crash landing on the planet Jakku. Every passenger is killed instantly except for Emperor Fel and a lone stormtrooper. The last trooper tries to pull the Emperor out of the rubble, but to no avail, and right before the Emperor dies, he gives a final command to the stormtrooper: tell the Republic, and Chancellor Organa, what has happened.

The stormtrooper’s name? Finn.

And that’s how I’d begin Episode VII.

You are a treasure here on OT.com Servi! Now, I know you stole these ideas from the best 2 Expanded Universe efforts (the Heir to The Empire trilogy and KOTOR 1 and 2), but that is okay! 😃

Servii said:

Had Qui-gon Jinn lived to train Anakin, he would have had a chance.

We never hear Qui-gon say or show that he’s against the no-attachment rule. That’s just fan conjecture. I’m still not convinced that Lucas viewed the Jedi’s rules on attachment as an unhealthy thing.

And this is one of the main reasons the PT is so disliked. Lucas seems to think the way he portrayed the Jedi in the PT would meet with approval from fans!!! But they came off as cold, unemotional assholes. Yet it seems Lucas felt we would admire them!!

Lucas seems to have interpreted Buddhism (clearly the inspiration for the Jedi, especially in the PT) the same way as Nietzsche; but whereas Nietzsche was against it, Lucas seems to be for it. Essentially the Jedi cut themselves off from what Jung would have termed “the shadow self”. Nietzsche and Jung would have said you have to integrate that “darkness” into your being to have a full life. The Jedi actually even go beyond this - I mean forbidding relationships and having children is as anti-life as you can get.

Can we draw a link between George’s real life infertility and how he portrayed the values and norms of the Jedi?

In the OT Luke was his avatar, by the time the PT came around it was Mace Windu. Yikes.

jedi_bendu said:

I’m not sure if I like force ghosts being able to interact in the physical world at all. They COULD potentially wield lightsabers etc but it is clear they can only appear in moments of need as the Force wills (as Ben says to Luke before he rushes off to confront Vader, “I cannot interfere”) so maybe it’s no problem.

I suppose Qui-gon appearing to confront Vader and let Obi-wan escape would be a nice moment in many respects but it would all depend on execution.

Force Ghosts are another idea that I used to like but were ruined by terrible ideas/writing (Yoda in TLJ).

Would have rather just had Obi-wan continue as a disembodied voice like in SW77.

Honestly, Star Wars is such a corporate product now. I am very close to requesting the mods ban my account here.

Anchorhead said:

Abrams has mentioned in interviews that Seven Samurai is one of his favorite films. He’s also mentioned that John Ford and Terrence Malick were big influences.

Well, I stand corrected. I guess he just is sort of a mediocre talent.

Off topic: not a fan of Malick myself anyway. I don’t think I have made it more than 30 minutes into any of his films before losing interest.

Servii said:

A point of contention when talking about the prequels is the Jedi Order’s stance on attachment. A particular scene people often come back to is Yoda’s conversation with Anakin in RotS, where Yoda seems to give some questionable advice about grief. This issue was brought back to my attention by a scene at the end of one of the episodes of Book of Boba Fett, where Luke is shown to be carrying on that same anti-attachment philosophy.

There’s been a lot of back-and-forth on this, mainly on the question of whether or not this is a good philosophy, and if it’s not, whether that was intentional on the part of George Lucas.

For example, there’s the fact that the Jedi take on new members when they’re babies, because they don’t want prospective Jedi to develop attachments to their families. To me, this flies in the face of the argument that the Jedi are only against possessive, selfish attachments, since familial bonds don’t really fit into that category. If you accept that even the love between a parent and child is something that’s selfish and dangerous, then that leaves you to conclude that all interpersonal relationships are selfish and dangerous and lead to the Dark Side.

It’s true that Anakin consistently takes things too far in his obsession with keeping people in his life. His reaction to his mother’s death is odd in that he focuses on himself, angrily vowing never to fail again, and when he fears for Padme’s life, the language he uses about her is very possessive and dependent to an unhealthy degree.

Basically, Anakin’s relationships are an extreme negative example of the pitfalls of attachment, rather than what would be the norm for all Jedi. Ideally, Jedi would be coached in how to deal with emotions like grief, and how to come to terms with the loss of loved ones so that it doesn’t cloud their judgment. But instead of doing that, the Jedi try to keep their students from even having loved ones at all, and directly associate the act of mourning with negative emotions like jealousy and greed.

This whole issue is further complicated by the ending of RotJ. Luke refuses to kill Vader because of their relation, and it’s Anakin’s attachment to his son (and thus his desire not to lose him) that pulls him back to the Light and causes him to destroy the Emperor. So we have a scenario where familial attachment saves the day and brings victory for the Light Side, with the main difference being that Anakin acted on his attachment in a self-sacrificial way this time, though it’s not certain whether he knew the act would kill him.

This seems to suggest that Lucas’ intention was for the Jedi to be wrong about attachment. And this interpretation was inadvertently backed up by Luke’s portrayal in the old EU, where he’s fully open to attachment and allows it for his students. But there’s something important to keep in mind. The Jedi’s rules on non-attachment hadn’t been invented yet when the OT was being written, and therefore, the EU writers obviously didn’t incorporate it into their stories. By the time George was writing the prequels, he had changed a great deal as a person (as all people do), and therefore was approaching those films with a different perspective. The Jedi’s stance on attachment seems to be something he came up with in the gap between trilogies. And of course, he’s also spoken against the idea of Luke ever getting married in his version of events.

Keeping that in mind, when we look at Luke’s depiction in BoBF, things start to make more sense. BoBF is a project that Dave Filoni is closely involved with, and Filoni was especially close to George and seems to understand his vision and intentions. So, it’s fairly safe to say that Luke’s portrayal in BoBF aligns pretty closely with Lucas’ vision for a post-RotJ Luke.

TL;DR Luke being pro-attachment in the old EU was just a happy accident caused by George simply not having decided yet that attachment was a bad thing.

Totally out of touch George Lucas actually thought audiences would like the PT Jedi and think they were cool.

But this topic always leads me to wonder about how the Jedi parent children. What history are they taught? How much free-play do they have? What is appropriate behavior towards the opposite sex? What are there values regarding topics like economics, bioethics etc.?

I think it is time for a TV series to explore the Jedi Order itself; follow a 5 year old from recruitment to full knighthood or something.

RicOlie_2 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

The philosophy of deconstructionism underminds the very nature of SW, as it does all myths and fairytales. All fiction, even fantasy, should, and usually do have nuance to it, but deconstruction tends to unravel it through overanalysis. I understand the purpose of deconstructionism in the real world and even for fiction about the real world, but I think it’s a poor match for fantasy.

I’m a bit late to the party, but thank you for this. It’s a refreshing viewpoint to see. I think the original spirit of Star Wars is unfortunately less and less possible in our current culture, because of a cultural shift that tends to deconstruct the old archetypes as it creates new ones that are largely incomptable with traditional narratives.

You are correct. The traditional hero is dead (and there are many who are happy about it). Lucas and many of his generation are from a much more traditional cultural background. John Milius especially. Luke Skywalker is a hero not an anti-hero.

Look at the culture of modern Gen-X and Millennial filmmakers compared to the filmmakers they admire. Does JJ Abrams love Kurosawa and old time comics and pulp serials like George did? No way.

I just started listening to this. A few thoughts.

I always liked learning more about Luke’s frustrations with life on Tatooine. These scenes are good. The voice acting for Deak, Windy, Biggs et al. is quite good.

The early scenes with Leia…are not good. I drifted off a bit while I listened. The whole dinner scene with Lord Tion was weird. The movies already established Leia as tough and capable, not how she is portrayed here. It doesn’t add anything to her character.

I do love Brook Peters as Vader!

Hal 9000 said:

That Lando introduced Luke to hot chocolate.

+1

It is generally better to “show, don’t tell” in films. Well the PT oftens fails to do either! No only do we not see Anakin and Obi being good friends, we see them somewhat antagonistic towards each other!

It also wastes it’s time introducing things that go nowhere: like the whole Sifo-dyas subplot. It is because there was no
overarching plan. Lucas was making up the films as he went along. There was a very clumsy idea of attachment being what leads to Anakins fall…but it never resonated with much of the audience.

Frustration with the Jedi being somewhat helpless to cure the ills of The Republic would have been a much better angle for explaining his fall.

Servii said:

I can’t say I agree. For a few reasons, but also for one major reason: the sequel trilogy made it so that the OT is actually the least important, least consequential of the three trilogies. The prequels show us Palpatine’s rise to power. The sequels show us how he’s finally defeated at the hands of his granddaughter. You could actually skip the OT altogether, since it’s the least relevant to the overarching saga story. Ultimately, Luke and his vision of a revived Jedi Order just ended up being the husk from which Rey and her new version of the Jedi would emerge. And the Skywalkers, while still being fairly important, are no longer the central figures driving the saga. They’re secondary to the Palpatines.

Both the prequels and sequels make the mistake of trying to reframe the saga around the new protagonist. You can see that in saga promotional material (and even in things like the startup screen for the new Lego game, which has Rey at the top and center of the group of characters, framing her as the main character of the saga). Part of the problem is that both trilogies are essentially pulling the saga in opposite directions, and as a result, the saga becomes disjointed.

I don’t doubt that the writers of the sequels have a lot of reverence for the OT. I do think they tried to have the new movies respect the old. They just fell into the trap of what I can only describe as reckless storytelling, where key plot points aren’t really thought through for what their implications would be. And there are quite a few inconsistencies between the new films and the OT. I’d say about as many as the prequels created.

A great (although thoroughly depressing) point. The OT now matters the least in the whole saga. Christ almighty. 🤦‍♂️

BedeHistory731 said:

Acknowledging that these are just stupid space wizard movies and not some “high art auteurship” would make the fandom a much less intense place.

I agree. Even though Lucas clearly did have some philosophical ideas he wanted to explore, Star Wars mainly takes its inspiration from comic books. The Secret History of Star Wars should be required reading for any Star Wars fan.

BedeHistory731 said:

theprequelsrule said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’m just glad Transformers fans have reached a point no Star Wars fan will ever reach: having a sense of humor about the stupid franchise and letting go of the anger to just revel in the inherent goofiness of the whole package. Even the OT is pretty damn goofy.

Transformers was meant to be a totally brainless film from the start, so I never took it seriously. I just enjoyed Bay’s shots of Megan Fox and his excellent ability to frame certain sequences.

Oh it’s more than just the films. Going back to the ‘80s cartoon, there’ve been countless revivals and new continuities throughout the past 35 years in animation, comics, and even some prose novels.

It’s not as brainless as one might think, while OT Star Wars can be more brainless than one may think.

I’m Gen-X, so I grew up in the 80s and was all over Transformers. But have never participated in its fandom online as an adult. Hence the much healthier relationship I have with it then Star Wars. 😃

BedeHistory731 said:

I’m just glad Transformers fans have reached a point no Star Wars fan will ever reach: having a sense of humor about the stupid franchise and letting go of the anger to just revel in the inherent goofiness of the whole package. Even the OT is pretty damn goofy.

Transformers was meant to be a totally brainless film from the start, so I never took it seriously. I just enjoyed Bay’s shots of Megan Fox and his excellent ability to frame certain sequences.

LexX said:
The point is, I love the original trilogy and I remember the time before TPM like it was a full life even though I saw the OT in 1996 for the first time. It was great time all around. After the PT I had lost this feeling. There still were the same movies I loved but with them came this other thing that wasn’t anything like it.

Small rant incoming.

The OT is like this beautiful, smart, funny woman who agreed to marry me. And after years of marriage her drug dealing, abusive son from a prior marriage now comes back and moves in with us. The son is the PT.

You can kick him out and pretend he doesn’t exist…but you know he is alive…somewhere. And even if he died, the memory remains. He is family.

That is the problem with the PT for me. And the ST for that matter. I try to do the whole “personal canon” thing, but I can’t. The OT is forever tainted for me. Can I still enjoy them to a certain degree? Sure. But can I ever look at Darth Vader again without part of me knowing how Anakin was portrayed in the PT? No! Can I look at Luke Skywalker again without occasionally remembering him sucking the milk from the boobs of some space cow or running away like a coward leaving an evil force to grow in the galaxy? No!

I have come to the point where I am more interested and fascinated by the train wreck nature of this franchise and by the toxic battles within its own fandom then the actual material.

Perhaps it is time to get out…again.

Interesting how a fair number of people see Vader being Luke’s father as, perhaps, not a great idea. Far fewer people thought this in the last century I would bet.

Have not gone back through the whole thread, so I apologize if the following was already mentioned.

Red Leader (played by Drewe Henley; who was 36 at the time of filming) said he met Anakin Skywalker, the renowned fighter pilot, when he was “just a boy”. If we assume Red Leader was supposed to be the same age or a little older as the actor who played him, what tentative conclusions can we draw?

So I would say that The Empire was formed between 25 to 35 years before The Battle of Yavin. But the PT version is still possible if we accept Red Leader as younger then he looks. It depends on what age range we see someone being a boy rather then a man

Anchorhead said:

This is where I think Disney could gain back some ground with disappointed fans by going full-on with the Lando series. It’s possible I’m way off here, but with the divided fan base and critical reaction to the Fett series, now might be a good time to step away from The Saga.

Calrissian is a long beloved character in the franchise and there are all sorts of stories they could tell that didn’t have to weigh in on OT or PT. Give us some stories about all those years before we met him. There’s no end to what they could do. It would be familiar but also new and adventurous at the same time.

I want an adaption of Heir to The Empire. Why not? Bring what is certainly THE most beloved EU material to life. What would be the risk? Just say it is an alternate timeline. It worked okay for Star Trek it would seem.

Servii said:

Hyperspace travel becomes way too fast. How long does it take Palpatine to reach Mustafar from Coruscant? 10 minutes?

That’s been a worsening problem with Star Wars movies after the OT. Hyperspace travel is now often treated like almost teleportation.

This brings up an interesting point…spacecraft in Star Wars must have some sort of backup Faster-Than-Light propulsion system that allows them to travel within a local star cluster. How else could the Falcon make it from Hoth to Bespin with no hyperdrive?

StarkillerAG said:

Darth Malgus said:

I loved your Padme film title post here: https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Alternative-Star-Wars-Movie-Titles-Keep-Checking-the-First-Post/id/13439/page/5#1477322 I was off thinking of other similar film titles for other characters after seeing that. 😃

Thank you. ♥️
But you didn’t answer my question: what is TFN? You said it’s a pro-PT site. I’d be interested in taking a look at it…

TFN is an abbreviation for theforce.net, a Star Wars forum created around the same time as this site. These two forums have always had opposing perspectives on the franchise: while this site is more focused on OT purism and criticizing the flaws with modern SW, TFN is more accepting of the modern state of the franchise, especially when it comes to the prequel era. There’s a lot less of a rivalry between those sites now than there used to be, but that difference in attitudes is still there.

I am a crotchety old man who misses the days before this website was “infiltrated” with younger millennials who have fond memories of the PT. 😃

Pro:

Darth Maul has surprisingly grown on me. Wasted potential…should have been the antagonist until the end of ROTS. The Clone Wars portrayal of him probably has helped.

Con:

Hyperspace travel becomes way too fast. How long does it take Palpatine to reach Mustafar from Coruscant? 10 minutes?

I’m not sure I like Force Ghosts. Hearing the words of the deceased is one thing, but the whole blue apparition thing…not sure if I like it anymore. I liked it in Heir to The Empire when Obi-wan could only communicate to Luke in his dreams.

Anchorhead said:

Darth Malgus said:
Come on, even the Original Trilogy has problems, even if no one wants to admit it…

I’m more than happy to admit the OT has problems. They started in 1980.

You have ice in your veins Anchorhead.

[darklordoftech said:](post/id/1477
Owen and Obi-Wan being brothers is only in the Kasdan drafts of ROTJ’s script and not in the movie itself, so I think it’s a Kasdan idea that Lucas didn’t go with.

It made it into the novelization so it was a late deletion. Maybe Lucas didn’t want to complicate things any further