none

Are they in the exact same spot for multiple frames?

Same location, multiple frames, but there is variation (of this white feature) between frames.

Right now this Extra Whiteness marker occurs in:
Starkiller - Reel Change 4_5 & 5_6 (the other change points have the brown thing)
PuggoKrig - Reel Change 5_6

*EDIT*

Reading the wiki entry on 'Cue_mark's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cue_mark

an 'unverified' tidbit about the 'restored' SW.  Which I guess means SE.

In the days of Three-Strip Technicolor, and successive exposure Technicolor cartoons, where separate silver images were available, it was not uncommon to apply two punches, one being larger and circular and the other being smaller and "serrated", with these being done in contrasting colors. In perhaps an homage to Three-Strip Technicolor, when "Star Wars" was restored, its conventional circular cues were replaced by "serrated" Technicolor-type cues on selected reels by the restorer.

*EDIT*

Going off of the suggestion in the next post:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.movies.tech/browse_thread/thread/caab4a2cd02e9d9/f63f5a1ee0b87405?hl=en&q=star+wars+cue+marks#f63f5a1ee0b87405

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.movies.tech/browse_thread/thread/d3caf9fea50e1aa2/2bde61e8188dbe11?hl=en&q=star+wars+cue+marks#2bde61e8188dbe11

~ Remember, the cue is elliptical because it got stretched
~by the lens, too.  It's actually a "star" shape.  Cues
~on old Disney animation used to be that way, too (I recall
~seeing such cues on FANTASIA in 1990).

The "Star" cues were unique to Technicolor prints.  They were usually
magenta in color as they were etched into the magenta (of YCM renown)
record.

TV's Frink wrote:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

We really REALLY need an FAQ.

We have one.  I just don't feel like searching for it right now :p

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-originaltrilogy-com-acronym-buster/topic/6810/

Added Starkiller and PuggoKrig to the Reel Change picts:

http://fd.noneinc.com/Reel_Changes/Reel_Changes.html

Not apparent from the screen caps, the Starkiller brown markers have a sense of motion to them, so thinking might they have shoved a pencil quickly into the frame, so we're seeing a shadow?

Some of the Starkiller markers share the blown out PuggoKrig pattern:

Starkiller 5-6 In

Starkiller 5-6 Out

So is the blown out/expanded/redrawn burn marks a sign of 16mm?

Question for those that can read the subs, any translations which are of note.  Something mistranslated or where they've changed the meaning?  Any ideas for the meaning/origin of Tugg?

zombie84 wrote:

Also, the hairs on the cap of the 3P0 desert shot are obscenely large, so it would make sense if the frame was 16mm in size.

This sounds like 'Strike 2' in the Case of 'Is Catnap 16mm?'  So now it seems more appropriate to ask a different line of questions to it's source.  Maybe we can learn 'when' this transfer might have occured which would be helpful.

Finally, as to disqualification of the (apparently) 16mm Catnap print, while obviously this isn't a "theatrical performance" (i.e. live from a theatre), this seems a bit harsh.

Agree, having the discussion focus on what can be learned from these sources over if they fill out some desired set is where i'd rather see discussion go.  This thread will most likely shift in focus, more on the annecdotal stories of people and their 'copies'.  Star Wars and piracy has fascinated me, and there are the Variety article horror stories, way back in the 70s, yet very few copies have surfaced and discussion of people having actually seen one is also limited.  Need to take this out of this forum into other places to collect stories.  that aside.

Comparing Satanika's pencil marked frame to the MeBeJedi/Starkiller one, the size stands out.  The MBD/SK reminds me of grease pencil or a paint brush with a mild acetone and it's de-colored the film.  But if this was an original full framed source, why mark it just for a video transfer?  The mark could have been done off frame.  Doesn't make sense to have transfered each reel to video then edit them afterwards using these markers as guides.  Does the mark size lead towards again a 16mm, as the hair does for Catnap?

And on the msycamore Puggo's "Stjärnornas Krig" - Swedish 16mm pict why blow out the burn?  The PuggoGrande has it similar to Moth3r's source, slight yellow ring.  I guess maybe the guy doing the subs might have chosen burns which were in darker frame areas and enchanced them?

Video Collector wrote:

If Catnap's is indeed from a 16mm reduction, it disqualifies it from being a "theater performance preservation", to me anyway.

It's been noted in the first post.  But it's only a first strike, let's see if other identifying characteristics will come forward to add to the conclusion.

Again following the Reel Change theme, was looking at the Starkiller ones and there's an odd brown swipe which shows up at the same time as the burn marks would if they hadn't been cropped out.

Source : Starkiller

Anyone got a clue what could cause this?

Also for those who have VHS tapes similar to the MeBeJedi and Starkiller, could you take a pic of the tapes and cover as you got them?  Would also be interested in hearing the story of how you got your tape.  See if any similarities might help identify something of interest.

thanks in advance

none

Made a page for Reel Change captures:  (please recommend info to add)

http://fd.noneinc.com/Reel_Changes/Reel_Changes.html

Right now there are three sources.  Moth3r, Catnap and PuggoGrande.  Each 'source' should open into a new window.  If it goes into a new tab, then right click and choose new window. 

What becomes clear is that Catnap is probably as zombie84 suggested a 16mm.  Open up the first reel change of 3po and R2 talking, and the bottom cropping is almost exact, missing the horizon line only seen in Moth3r.

An oddity which could be a clue for future widescreen identification, in Moth3r's source Reel Change 5 to 6 In (the first burn) is doubled.

*EDIT*

And then checking the Starkiller & MeBeJedi, the burn marks are only on the top, there is no bottom one.  It maybe be cut off, a 16mm trait.  So maybe they both are 16mm source....  Need to identify other aspects to determine differences to nail down a source, before jumping to conclusions.

So the question, Could there have been burn mark differences between versions of a film?  I don't know.

*EDIT2*

But if this conclusion is correct, then this Catnap could be the source for the pan/scan Starkiller/MeBeJedi.  Would explain the blowed up resolution.  Maybe there's a video glitch which could support that they are a similar source.

*EDIT3*

nah the Catnap blue shift shows that this VHS version couldn't be Starkiller/MeBeJedi.  ok enough of my thinking and typing... Wappidity Scrappity Dooooo 

zombie84 wrote:

I couldn't say whether its the detail level or the softness on the edges, but something about this just looks like a 16mm print to me.

The softness/details level could be a factor of the digitization. The Moth3r source is ~9gb while Catnap is ~3.5.

Don't know if people have found certain differences between the 16mm (Puggo) and other known quantities from the film versions, besides resolution. (I checked the reel change burn marks from the Conference room scene and they are there in the 16mm, need to check Puggo's thread) Maybe finding a frame with a hair and measuring/figuring out how large the hair is in relation to either the 16 or 35 size. Question: In the telecine equipment, could the hair occupy different locations which would affect how big it appeared in frame or is it generally really cramped, so it's most likely directly touching the actual film, but behind a piece of glass?

Feel free to toss out questions ideas which we can submit to Catnap: Something like:

Do you have a story behind the tapes origin? Collector, bootleg market something else. How would you compare the tape playback to the DVD? The DVD is not quite a full DVD5 so people have commented that the lack of detail might mean it's something else. Personally i'm curious about the physical tape, gives a sense of history. (obsolete tech)  Can we get a pic?

The story of the Catnap creation being because the official VHS releases were not in widescreen makes sense, but why go through this process (color bars professional) and cut the bottom so heavily.  and the blue shift is unusual.

I'm about half way through watching, anyone else given it a look?  Thinking over this weekend can get the questions in order and see if sending them off to the contact info we've got.  Hopefully Catnap's still using that account.  Need to ask ReverandBeastly if he did all his communication through PMs.

Updated : blitter 35mm audio recording info. Thanks for the clarification, was skimming... little too quickly it seems.  Have you discovered anything else about the recording in the last few years?

Darth Mallwalker seems to have found an unwatched coke dispenser in the food court and is current on an unfiltered syrup sugar high and it's caused him to offer up free binaries help services.  I think the devil-horns would be better used on a Sith-Trifecta.  But feel free to update the .nfo's where Voi has gone awry.77

doubleofive wrote:

Already sent my list to Rinzler. I'm sure if he laid out the book with original images that he still has them.

That's fine, your tips will help Rinzler with the fourth printing revisions.  He's got the LFL library at his disposal to find the originals.  As ImperialFighter wrote, when's that come out.  we'll check then.

But what about all the people with copies from printings one thru three, they deserve to be informed.  Lucasfilm is not going to offer new copies to those with incorrect books.  and that's where savestarwars.com comes in, they can be that informer.  By providing modified page scans with pre&post corrections and explanations.

Most of the pictures are so small it doesn't make a difference.

you don't believe that...

Dare we offer up 'Page Fixes'? We were unsure what the presentation method should be in the Revisionism thread, maybe zipped up or cbr 'Page Fix Supplements' could be put out. The 'Corrected Page' and the 'Original Page with Explanation Markups'...

For instance, the Making of Star Wars book, about 50 or so pages were released through Amazon.  Could start with those.  they weren't high quality, but it'll make a point.

This is great that Lucasfilm is identifying this issue.  Fourth printing sounds like demand for the book is good, wonder if this is meeting or exceeding expectations.  Maybe the RotJ book can gain a few pages because of this. 

But I don't understand why Del Rey was even allowed to look at the SEDVDs when producing this book.

But it's great that people like doubleofive who took the time to write to them, got them to identify an issue.  and in this case act upon it to correct this 'small'.... situation.  Good job!

but NFOs are intended to be viewed, not "played with".

They were not intentionally modified.  For instance these code 437 characters are not well liked in binsearch's .nfo preview.  That's where i'm seeing them not showing up properly.

Thanks for the process descriptions.  Would like to see the scripts, but don't have a good understanding of that at the moment.  Thinking that since the Catnap source has colorbars that if a similar methodology was applied relocating the colors to match a definition colorbar sample, a better understand of what the original colors were like could be found.  Or it could just end with a poor telecine transfer.  But that's doubtful, since it's widescreen which wasn't done on VHS in those early days.

Added 'blitter' 70mm audio recording info. which seems to be what Belbucus worked from.  *EDIT* actually it's 35mm and blitter explains more a few posts down /EDIT

Added info link about morgands1 & BrianM 70mm audio recording.

Updated BrianM version to LMayer.

The LMayer version has 'Crowd Interaction'!!!, from the description:

Both are the original Star Wars, one in May of '77 and the other in early '78. Yes, they are both "snuck-in" open air recordings with the real life "Laugh Track"

So the released BrianM is actually LMayer (Washington D.C.), not sure if the other BrianM (San Diego) was ever released.

*EDIT

Reading further:

The good/bad news is that this is the one recorded at a Monday matinee 11 months after Star Wars opened. Soooo, it has almost no crowd noise, which was the goal

Yes, ESB and ROTJ exist.  GOUT refers to "George's Original Unaltered Trilogy".  it's the name created to describe the set released in the DVD set of 2006, as 005 mentioned as a 'bonus disc'.

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Episode-IV-Widescreen/dp/B000FQJAIW/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1296048325&sr=8-12

Added one of the Starkiller links.  Thanks  The Aluminum Falcon, the other one was too brief.

I've been watching the MeBeJedi bootleg and was wondering if it had been firmly established that Tarkin's line during the Death Star conference ("We will crush the rebellion once and for all") was only cut off because of a reel change.

Moth3r's & Catnap's version you can see the reel change burn marks and the full line "one swift stroke" is there.  When Tarkin goes "Vader will provide us with the location" you can see the first burn mark then there's another after the swift stroke line.  Both MeBeJedi and Starkiller do not.  Which is a great clue that they are the same source.  Maybe the original recording got eaten, maybe the source was played a lot and that part of the film got ruined.  pure speculation.

Added the 1979 Airline version into the Honorary Mentions category.  It's closer to a 16mm print, on first impression, but interesting enough to look out for.  Never heard of that.  They used to show films on airplanes?!

I didn't watch it all the way through, but did anyone spot any reel-change markers, which would prove this was from a theatrical print?

Yes there are some there (see above), maybe i'll go through and pull out the ones which can be found.

Yes, this tape could be straight from the horse's mouth, from the very individual who taped it off the screen in the 70's, but how often does that happen...?

The pirate market has existed for some time.  In Variety articles from this time period they were afraid of actual film copies being run off.  If they were doing that, getting the telecine done, doesn't seem to problematic.

Could a "bootleg" be faked today, and would we, the OT forum members, be fooled?

Who's going to take the time to insert a hair into a faked bootleg.  (maybe that's why the GOUT was so expensive, they were also...)  I'm all for the wild theory, and it'll be phun to debate this one.  Catnap mentioned that the original tape was:

The tape came in a Hildebrandt covered case (old- style big box), and is recorded on a very early vhs tape (the heavy pitted type ones they used to make way back when) I imagine this tape has been around for many years!

This is something we can ask.  Could we see a picture of the tape.  Personally I just like seeing the actual item, gives them a sense of history.  and i'm not sure what a heavy pitted type looks like.

The black bars are electronic, not part of the original capture which would have been 4x3 analog video.

How certain of this are you?  Don't know the specifics of the telecine operation, but would assume there's a physical object which stops the light from hitting the receptor, so the blacks should be very black.  The Moth3r source also has well defined top and bottom black bars.  Ok see what you're talking about, there is very little noise in the blacks.  some top and bottom, but yet very little noticable white flecks popping up.  Which could mean it's close to the source or great equipment was used.  If you take a frame into photoshop and crank the brightness and contrast, it's not flat.  there are variations but extremely slight.  I'd say the cut off was done out of expediency.  If this is from the piracy market, you do it once and move on.

Would assume that part of the reason these films get changed slightly for each re-re-release is so they can be tracked.  A positive side effect of wanting to see what new technology can do.

The Catnap bootleg seems like it was made much more recently than the 80's, camcorded/telecined or not, which it obviously couldn't be, because noone would have access to a Pre ANH film print that would look so fresh at this time.

Nah it's possible, but unlikely.  Here's an example of a rebel screening from summer 2010: http://savestarwars.com/technicoloribscreening.html  Nice pics at the bottom.  Not sure if it was Pre-ANH, but it's the other 99% of the film.

Added : Belbucus Audio recording.  Thanks Moth3r, Satanika mentioned the morgands1 and BrianM, more the merrier.  I'll read through the linked thread to see  if the sources are mentioned.  In the first post, it's just the two theaters where the recordings took place.  Need  reference links for the morgands1 and BrianM anyway.

again... it's almost a constant now...

derp

So with the above examples, any idea on how you might present this info?  Will you have them sorta as is, with a text description of what's wrong and how to identify why it is wrong?  Or do you envision something else, or just not sure right now.

Anyone got a good listing of all Lucasfilm publications since 1997?  Figure at least a quarter to a half suffer... With a list, could help priorities what to look at first.  If not think I can scrape the library of Congress listings by year and get a list that way.

Seriously, what the hell is a RASSM

rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc

http://www.shavenwookie.com/orhp/ 'Official RASSM Homepage'

basically the hub of internet Star Wars discussion in the early to mid 90s.

None, whenever I try to convert that .rm to another format it goes out of sync. Shame, it's a great little piece and one I would love to upload to youtube (with your permission of course).

And why is it that as soon as I finish my doco-thingies some 'new' stuff is presented to me?

I'll see if i've got the conversion I did for the 'Star Wars THE ULTIMATE EXPERIENCE Is Forever ...One Last Time' project. (don't worry no one else watched it...) I did it in pieces. Audio Hijack for the audio and SnapzPro for the video. It was originally posted to usenet or the SWAficionado site, and it's still streaming from the BBC, in pieces .rm or .wmv. actually from that article you mentioned, it's was on the right.

As for the 'new' stuff, there's so much out there. Who knows what everyone else knows. Which is why the forum at one point had the Project to Collect all Documentaries. Which expanded to what if we collected everything, thee imaginary :F:L:I:M:S:I:P:L:A:S:T: :D:A:T:A:B:A:S:E:. If I could figure out how to make an online database, we could all compare libraries. and we'd all be belching unicorns and rainbows.

*EDIT*

anyone got a good scan of the handwritten GL script cover sheet in the Making of SW, might make for a good cover image. add in a handwritten 'SW Begins by JD' on the next consequtive lines.

Jambe Davdar wrote:

Did anyone manage to grab the video that was associated with this story? - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7083045.stm

This stream: mms://s42wm.castup.net/server12/12284100-61.wmv ?

*EDIT*

dang it stream link must be set up per session. You are talking about the one where it's old video of people waiting in line for the SW rerelease?  started with an interview with Fisher.

*EDIT2*

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SBOT2I90 this version is a tiny .rm and the file date of 1977 might be incorrect.

The Aluminum Falcon wrote:

I noticed that when you try to double click on specific screenshots of the Catnap, I get a 404.

Thanks, should be fixed now.  Capitalization error.  Mac's overlook some of the text formatting, didn't test properly after upping to the server.  Sometimes I write a message in simpletext and the links get extra invisible characters added into them when dumping into the OT forum...  Don't notice it until clicking after posting...  none unPHUN error.  Delete to /

I also got a chance to look at some of the leads you found on the other page and hopefully we can contact some of them, though some of the posts' ages make it unlikely.

Yeah it's all a crap shoot.  Have been sending messages to the addresses mentioned in the posts, but yes they are old, so they've mostly come up bouncing back.  So then it's doing some internet tracking, seeing if you can find the persons current e-mail.  There's some user name or their real name which can be found in later posts or pages.  Have gotten some messages through that way.  One area I haven't used is facebook, so if someone wants to search for these people or mentions of people seeing a tape in the 80s there, that would be great.

I watched all of "New Hope" along with the 2004 DVD (simultaneously) and it was very interesting to see the changes/ additions.

There's a wonderful set called the WookieGroomer Splits which have just what you've done, but they are nicely edited so you don't have to do the pause and restart.

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Greetings-from-Wookie-Groomer-Split-Screen-News/topic/1773/

...and there's more changes then you'd believe, this thread is documenting them:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Complete-Comparison-of-Special-Edition-Visual-Changes/topic/11927/page/1/

But for the image you are looking for if this thread does yield results, try asking here:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/HI-Res-Poster-Art/topic/2311/unread/1/

Moth3r wrote:

However, the NFO file got corrupted somewhere along the line - here is the "good" NFO.

You've got some characters in that .nfo which don't play well with things.  I believe i've included a .nfo and .html version this time, so they should be intact...  even if the ones showing up in search engines is funky.

Moth3r continued:

Also posted for the first time are the source discs, for anyone who wants to take a shot at devising a better filter chain than I used.

Here's a before and after, to get a sense of the work accomplished:

So what came first the inverse telecine or the chroma shift/avisynth filtering/video noise reduction?  It's been awhile, but do you recall the process?  And with all the color discussion of late, do you think the colors you modified towards were overly influenced by the laser disc? 

Like when attacking the Death Star:  "Cut the chatter"

The PM system was partially set up so threads would not de-evolve into 'I want' threads.  Here's an example:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Pre-ANH-bootleg-telecine-a-widescreen-version/topic/6994/

Moth3r did a lot of work converting a VHS into the best of the Theater Performances this community has seen.  But instead of discussing the values of either the work accomplished or what was found in the actual source, there are 5+ pages of 'where is it'.  Go read it, it's disheartening.  It's a partial explanation of why Moth3r as he describes himself "...used to be a valued member of the community before he became a grumpy old git"

Posting on topic shows interest.

Have begun adding generic screen capture guides of these Theatrical Performances.  They're simple, just taking the files as is and extracting 1 frame every 10 seconds.  Please feel free to reference/use them.

1977
Star Wars Pre-Episode IV Bootleg - MeBeJedi
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-77_ANH_BOOTLEG-1.html
Star Wars Pre-Episode IV Bootleg - The Starkiller
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-SWIVBOOT-1.html
Pre.A.New.Hope.Bootleg.Telecine.WS.Moth3r.version.XVID-mthr
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-mthr-swtc1.html
Pre.A.New.Hope.Bootleg.Telecine.WS-(Source.of.Moth3r.xvid)-Disc1
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-PreANH-WS-BOOTLEG1-1.html
Pre.A.New.Hope.Bootleg.Telecine.WS-(Source.of.Moth3r.xvid)-Disc2
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-PreANH-WS-BOOTLEG2-1.html
Pre.A.New.Hope.Bootleg.Telecine.WS.Catnap
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-Catnap-1.html
Kreig der Sterne - ultrara
http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-Krieg_der_Sterne-ultrara.html

*EDIT*

fudge, i screwed up with some of the guides, so if it's down, i'm working on updating...

*EDIT2*

think i've fixed the error.  macs are more forgiving with file name capitalizations...  if you see a 404 please let me know.