msycamore

145590

I think this frame could be treated as a "garbage-frame", the NTSC GOUT have an interlacing error here yes, but the PAL GOUT just repeat the previous frame. In all other sources of Empire I have looked at, this scene of Threepio consists of 45 frames, whereas this junk frame makes it 46 in the GOUT.

Also, if you have access to the PAL discs of the GOUT, you could restore the few missing frames in the NTSC transfers and get rid of a few interlacing errors, see here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Whats-missing-from-GOUT/post/457549/#TopicPost457549 those missing frames isn't really that important and will just produce additional audio-work, but the interlacing errors is nice to get rid of.

TServo2049 said:

You may well be right. The heavy smoke may have caused more visible grain with each generation than other scenes, so the negative might not look as grainy as this print.

I shouldn't have said that the shot IS recomposited, because I really can't prove it. I guess I just got that impression from looking at the comparison. The lasers look so different that I just assumed that they were recomposited, like the lightsaber scenes.

When I come up with a theory, I sometimes get carried away and start talking about it like it's definitely true. I apologize for that. The truth is that I have no clue as to whether the lasers were recomposited or not.

It's cool, I was just curious if you happen to know something about it, definitely no need to apologize, I don't state any facts either, I just see the similarities with other red boosted objects, like those lights. It may be a combination of the Lowry algorithm, the artificial sharpening that was applied and of course the unnatural amounts of reds. I have noticed that whenever there is recompositing done on the trilogy, the original timings and/or positioning of those elements are never exactly the same.

TServo2049 said:

And that laser...awful. That shot is recomposited, notice how the difference in grain between the 70mm and the Blu-ray is much more visible than in the other comparison.

 Are you sure about that? the difference in grain, could it not just be the result of Lowry?

TServo2049 said:

A lot of the recomposited lasers in that sequence have the same problem - the glow element is way too saturated and fat, there's no difference in opacity/density between the beam and the surrounding glow, and the actual beam shape just looks like a stencil on top of the glow.

This same unnatural effect is seen on these lights in the walls as well:

I doubt there's any recomposited lasers in there, just screwed up levels, it affects everything. I guess some details can be restored but the real damage cannot be undone, once clipped...

For "Il y a bien longtemps, dans une galaxie lointaine, très lointaine..." and the main body of text in the crawl, use "Trade Gothic" instead, it's a much closer match than "Franklin Gothic" you used.

You_Too said:

Could it be some color-noise reduction applied on the films that caused this?

It certainly looks like it but if some kind of color-noise reduction was used, wouldn't other colored objects in the picture have been affected by it as well? that's what's weird, the lasers are affected but the rest of the opticals are always fine. Here's three shots in the Technidisc transfer which shows the exact same kind of artifacts:

And it's not just a case where you can tweak the hue and get the right colors back, the original colors are simply gone.

OmegaMattman said:

You read my mind, msycamore. I'd been planning on fixing the Tie lasers in Empire, but wasn't aware of all that stuff in Jedi. Nor had I seen those lights in SW behind Threepio.

Great thing that I mentioned it then. ;) Looking forward to see if you're able to fix those with your MO, keep up the good work!

OmegaMattman said:

Unfortunately, I don't have the TBs of Empire or Jedi, just the Flunk edition of SW. I was planning to use the '04 discs, since I'd just be borrowing from the chroma channels while leaving the luma untouched. But, I'll have to see about hunting down the TBs. The more sources, the merrier ;)

You can find it on MySpleen, sure it have compression artifacts and DVNR-smear and a red tint but the reason I mentioned the TB Empire is that the original color timing and cinematography is present for the most part compared to the DVD/Blu-ray versions. The most ridiculous thing is that it even has more detail than those versions in some shots, especially on Hoth. It's also the best source available to us for any fx-shots that were later altered, like the Emperor-holo. Some shots actually looks incredibly good on it, recommended.

OmegaMattman said:

I wasn't happy with the color correction decisions I'd previously made and I really wanted to fix some of GOUT's bizarr-o problems (missing scanlines on the Emperor and split sabers).

Nice idea to utilize the detail in the LD to restore some of the scanlines. Might I suggest the TB broadcast of Empire '97 SE, many original fx-shots with much less smear than the GOUT is to be found there, including sabers without those artifacts you mentioned. But then this project becomes something else I guess. When we are talking bizarro problems in the '93 telecine, are you also going to try and tackle these color glitches somehow?

^ everything looks like it should, but in the next frame the lights behind Threepio suddenly switch color:

some moments later when he introduces himself as C-3PO the lights have switched to yet another color:

Similar issues where green turned red/pink can be seen on Vader's belt lights, his first scene in the film comes to mind.

the scanlines are gone and the green markings turned pink in this shot:

the TIE lasers turned yellow with a blue outline:

purple laserfire from the Stardestroyer:

the Falcon's laser turned green with red outline:

TIE laser glitches:

same thing with this Stardestroyer's lasers:

weird TIE laser again:

Maybe you already know about all these but I thought it was worth mentioning them if not, these color issues is a little mystery to me as similar glitches are seen on other optical effects in earlier transfers as well but in other shots than what was seen in the '93/'95 telecine. Some of these particular ones aren't seen on the PAL THX LD's as far as I know but they had their own color glitches on other shots instead.

What makes it odd, is that it doesn't seem to be a color timing issue, the weird color casts on these opticals seems isolated from the rest of the image which are often fine, only certain opticals are affected like the laser blasts, truly bizarre, it could not be DVNR related either as it appear on DVNR-free sources like the Technidisc pressing in a few scenes as well.

Thanks for the info Harmy, might check this out and see how it compares with the NTSC DVD, you never know these days what digital tinkering they might do when this gets a new release.

^ Look similar to the master they used for the Special Collection and regular SWE LD's, not sure about the PAL releases but the '92 NTSC Letterbox Collector's Edition VHS comes from the same source this Technidisc pressing did.

It's still up on MySpleen, if torrents is an option for you. Let me know if you need an invite.

Harmy said:

I don't think DVD even supports discrete 6.1 but I could be wrong.

It does, several DVD's were released with DTS-ES 6.1 discrete audio, Se7en is one that comes to mind. But I really don't see the need for a 6.1 configuration when a 5.1 configuration makes the original six-track mix justice.

Long time since I watched this movie, IMO it's one of his weaker films but it's very ambitious and technically extremely well made, great performances from Biehn and the always great Ed Harris.

The NTSC DVD is supposed to be more detailed than the PAL release, is the HD version the '89 original or the '93 Special Edition?

TServo2049 said:

(You know...maybe the statement about the "1985 IPs" refers to Empire and Jedi only? Empire debuted on video in 1985, Jedi in 1986, and the JSC releases were also in '86. AFAIK, these were the only NTSC transfers of the films until '93.)

Can you please tell me where the 1985 IP's info come from? I keep seeing it mentioned but never the source, is it mentioned in any article out there? I'm curious.

Also, I believe Empire debuted on VHS, Betamax and Laserdisc in 1984.

SilverWook said:

In the case of Kubrick, it gets complicated. IIRC, there is a storyboard glimpsed on the Blu Ray supplements for The Shining that clearly shows the intended theatrical ratio. Might be some framing marks on a playback monitor as well.

Yes, I recall the intended ratio for The Shining was 1.85:1 according to that storyboard. I think the latest video release is in 1.78:1 instead of 1.85:1, don't you still see those helicopter blades in the opening? An interesting article related to this discussion: http://www.hdvision-mag.com/2012/03/was-the-terminator-shown-in-two-different-formats.html

Rick2525 said:

Robocop 1 - oar 1.66:1

first DVD (Criterion 1998) was oar 1.66:1 non-anamorphic, but has a full-bodied 2.0 soundtrack (great for when ED-209 shoots its guns off etc)

later DVDs/BluRays are now cropped at 1.78:1 and the 5.1 mix is pitiful (even with .1 subwoofer channel), like Terminator 1's remix etc

As I understand it, it was originally screened in 1.85:1 but 1.66:1 is Verhoeven's preferred ratio. The original mix on Robocop is great and was one of the first films with Dolby Stereo SR - Spectral Recording, the Region 1 MGM 20th anniversary DVD and Fox blu-ray seems to have the original mix in the form of a Dolby 4.0 track, why there's no LFE, I don't know.

TServo2049 said:

I take back what I said about the radar dish. It's actually not there in the film cell. You can see a cloud formation that is almost completely covered by the dish in the familiar version.

I swear I can see something at the bottom of the frame, but I'm not sure what. Maybe it's just damage. (I will note that in the Super 8, the bottom of the frame is cropped off.

Doesn't look cropped off to me.

Super 8:

'85 LD:

Baronlando said:

frank678 said:

Looking at the comparison shots between the GOUT and Technidisc, the GOUT looks almost like its been bleached. Is this a combination of fade and DVNR or are there other factors involved?

I was wondering if that source was turning yellow and then correcting that ended up making it kind of blah?

My DVD transfers poor white balance also contributes to making it look more yellow than the actual LD really is. I actually think the elements used was turning pink/red at this point, the telecine operator may have tried to counter this with a bit of yellow and green.

Baronlando said:

It's weird that they even bothered to do that quiet repressing, the box came out so close to it.

Yeah, I don't recall exactly when it was done, maybe mallwalker could chime in, it may have been issued when the DC LD set was in production. It seems like this IP was first used when they produced the 1992 Special Letterbox Collector's Edition VHS.

Some interesting backstory about this source for those who haven't read it, THX Technical Supervisor Dave Schnuelle regarding the process of making the Definitive Collection Laserdiscs In the September 1993 issue of Widescreen Review:

"In this case, for all three films, we used interpositive elements that had been made directly from the camera negative. Other film transfers might be done from internegatives made from the interpositive, or from low-contrast prints, but we preferred the IP's for these transfers, because that's the earliest generation usable"

"One small difference from the original films is that in letterbox transfers we prefer to put any subtitles in the black border beneath the actual picture area. Thus we didn't use the same interpositive as the theatrical one, because that one contains subtitling already. In tracking down the elements, we found that the only ones in the vault were ones with subtitles- these clearly weren't the first generation off the camera neg because they had to have the subtitles burned in. So a massive search was undertaken and the first generation IP's were found in a special vault having only opticals in Los Angeles."

"A Mark IIIC with a 4:2:2 digital output telecine was used."

"We used a noise reduction and dirt concealment device made by Digital Vision, a company in Sweden. Their DVNR-1000 is a very powerful noise reducer for reducing film grain. Especially on the two earlier movies the film grain was very high."

Besides the chroma shift, I noticed that there seems to be something that looks like a chroma sampling error on these captures and color smear causing DVNR-like trails, this is most noticable on the color red. This is a little unfortunate as they're otherwise superb captures. Arnie.d, if you're still around, any theory what could've caused this? I know that some combfilters can cause smearing...

I'm unable to post examples of this as I don't have a computer at the moment.

You_Too said:

Watched it now.

The part where George says he didn't "experience" Star Wars like everyone else going to the cinema knowing nothing about it, made me think that's gotta be one big reason why he doesn't understand the importance of preserving the originals.

He's spent so much time focusing on his "vision" that the experience itself has been ignored.

Of course he didn't experience it like the rest of us, that's the way things work when you're the creator of such a behemoth. But anyone sane enough wouldn't try to fight against the people who admire your work, he mentioned it in the interview himself, "it became a cultural phenomenon" This asshole is on the board of directors for The Film Foundation, (how is that even possible) he knows very well what he's doing, I wonder if the other members do. It's impossible to like this person nowadays, he is so full of himself, it's ridiculous.

Seems like some kids have internet access right after the moment of birth.

The original theatrical subs on Jedi is very different from what was on the DC laserdisc release and the original subs don't contain any of those misspellings mentioned. Everything from timings to line breaks are different. I did a re-creation of them some time ago for d_j's DVD using the footage that appear in the documentary "Empire of Dreams" and a theatrical bootleg Video_Collector sent me, Treadwell have since then uploaded a much better quality bootleg and Puggo's 16mm is another one, so there is plenty of references out there.

Mindofone, on this page: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Greedo-Jabba-subtitles-theatrical-placement-and-fonts/topic/11463/
you can see how the original subtitles looked, I found Trade Gothic Bold to be a close match but only close. The subs on Jedi differ slightly from the subs in the first film.

Yes, what strongly speaks against this being a 70mm difference is the jarring edit in the score but anything is possible I guess. We can also only speculate at this point how that sequence was cut if it was indeed 6 seconds shorter, there's more than one way it could've been handled.

"That's some bad hat, Harry."

This is going to be awesome. Quite shocking how bad shape the negative was in.

morgands1 said:
This link will work, too:

http://www.wideanglecloseup.com/Wampa_comparison.mp3

 

Ah, so there is an edit in the score at that point, was thinking for a moment that the sequence could perhaps been re-scored for the 35mm, it's a little bit odd though. Makes you wonder if they cut that shot at the very last minute then decided they put it back in again for the 35mm release, it would've been more natural to have an audible edit in the 35mm than in the 70mm.

bigrob said:
had the pleasure of viewing an original 35mm print from 1979 on friday at The Prince Charles cinema in london
fantastic!!!