As I am unable to listen to your 70mm recording at the moment, I must ask you guys something regarding the 5 - 6 sec difference in the wampa cave, is the cue John Williams wrote for this sequence a different take? I can't remember any noticable editing in his score for this sequence.
In some ways it's these minor subtle and trivial revisions that you normally don't notice that are the worst in the long run because they have a much bigger chance to succeed in replacing the original work than the in your face revisionism that Lucas is the master on. I guess we will see something similar happen when The Abyss gets released on Blu.
Just give me a pm if you're interested to hear the 70mm mix, just thought I would mention this when the uploaded files are still up.
Even if new prints wasn't struck due to being too expensive, the 70mm prints overseas could have been the revised "final cut." In Sweden, and other European countries, the film didn't open until August that year, and in many other countries, in December. It depends of course when the prints for foreign markets were prepared.
But entirely new prints would've been needed, as more than two reels were affected by revisions.
At least one fx-shot in the snow battle was redone and we also have the redone hologram of the Emperor. That is reel 2 & 3. Hmm, it's a little odd that so little info exist on this.
As I'm surfing on a cellphone at the moment I have a hard time to see the details on that film cell, but remember that it's not only the dish that was added, the position of Luke was altered as well. Maybe that can help you if you're uncertain.
TServo, as you suggested the explanation behind those cells could probably be what we discussed in this thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/70-mm-print-of-the-Empire-Strikes-Back-Differences/topic/2321/page/3/
Not only just a 70mm cut but an early cut that was later replaced by a final cut on both formats. If that is the case, maybe new 70mm prints with the revisions were made for the US re-releases if not for the foreign markets in '80.
Great discovery, love these sort of things. :) And I think you're right, that close-up of him seems to match in length. Cool, this difference was never pointed out by Matessino in that FSM issue.
I started a similar thread recently for all three films here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/70mm-6-Track-Dolby-Stereo-mix-differences/topic/14058/
Like TServo, I also hear Lando's line as a different take compared to what is heard in the 35mm. Also, the sound effect for the TIE's after Luke's failure in the cave are definitely different in the 70mm mix vs. the 35mm mix, what's heard on the foreign tracks on the '06 bonus DVD match the 70mm, the SE is similar but sound a little bit different.
Very interesting find about the difference in audio length in the wampa cave! Should be quite easy to check exactly what shot was added to the 35mm cut after a little closer comparison, nice. :)
Just re-releasing it in 3D is a way of altering the film, so it's not meant to be the original '97 Titanic anyway. But I agree, it's a disturbing trend and I'm afraid we haven't seen the end of it.
^ That's right, other subtle differences in the mono mix I think haven't been mentioned yet is the sound of the alarm that is heard throughout the detention block shootout. It may just be buried in the mix but as I recall, it's only heard when the shooting has stopped in the Dolby tracks.
There is also added sound effects for the various switches Solo touches in the Falcon when they're on their way to the rebel base that wasn't in the Dolby tracks.
Nice to hear that you're working on this again h_h. :) I'm unable to listen to your sample at the moment but I'm sure it sounds great. Looking forward to your new recreation very much.
That's nice to hear Harmy. :) I hope you'll like it, most people don't.
Yes, it's very frustrating but I guess it was just a matter of time before it died completely, it was an old one. Hopefully I'll have a new pc pretty soon.
Heilemann said:
Same poster as Style A, but in a different design. What's the deal? Easier/cheaper to print?
OmegaMattman, thanks for the screenshots, I guess Laserman only talked about the first film then.
Well, this is a project that should've been finished a long time ago but have unfortunately taken a long time, mostly due to an old malfunctioning PC which have now finally died. :(
The video-part is done, it's basically just the audio sync and encoding left, as I have been without a computer for some time, I haven't been able to work on it, but I will hopefully have a new one in a week or two.
Here's that frame in the '93 DC (Dr Gonzo DVD):
What's interesting, is that the cropping is quite similar here to the Technidisc. Don't know if Gonzo made additional cropping or not for the resize though.
You can see some examples of the infamous split-saber syndrome here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/DVNR-smearing-in-GOUT-not-in-the-master-Or-is-the-1995-release-a-different-master-altogether/post/514542/#TopicPost514542
I'm not entirely sure about this but I think the Faces LD of Empire doesn't have the artifacting seen here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Whats-missing-from-GOUT/post/463309/#TopicPost463309
If that is the case it could be:
'95 Faces LD = GOUT Star Wars
'93 DC LD = GOUT Empire
Also, the dirt on Ben and the trooper isn't something unique to this master, that's the kind of dirt that was printed in and probably seen on release prints. The speeder pass by shot had plenty of it, and so had the lightsaber scenes in the Falcon to name a few. The yellow and blue stripes is splice tape.
Of course it can be done, we all know it. It's just Lucas acting like a big asshole.
That's a nice article.
Yes, it's known and have been pointed out before, but that last frame is a little odd, but I guess it just picked up some additional dirt/damage since the '92 telecine, the mark isn't seen on the '93 DC LD but that transfer had even worse DVNR artifacts than the '95 Faces so...
TServo2049 said:
(You know...maybe the statement about the "1985 IPs" refers to Empire and Jedi only? Empire debuted on video in 1985, Jedi in 1986, and the JSC releases were also in '86. AFAIK, these were the only NTSC transfers of the films until '93.)
Don't know about Jedi, but the IP for Empire seems to have been the source for all NTSC releases, including the '97SE.
captainsolo said:
For a Few Dollars More. Possibly the best of all three Dollars films, and possibly the best Western ever made. Here Leone gets his rhythm down and eases into the style he is known for. Perfect balance between entertainment and art, between action and drama. The grand operatic sweep of his later films is hinted at, but FAFDM retains the almost serial like atmosphere of A Fistful of Dollars, which still keeps us coming back for more. A vast improvement on the first film and completely flawless. Everything is amped up here; the performances, the style, the cinematography, the sets, dialogue...and dear god the score! There are moments that will send chills down your spine (Hearing that organ for the first time in the church duel blew me away. Still does.) and tons of quirky little boings, springs, and whistles.
And you'll never look at a pocket watch the same way again.
Sadly, though the video presentations are much better now after a new master being struck from the Techniscope original, the original elements are not in the best of shape. The best available materials MGM had a few years ago was a degraded print that even went pink in one shot.
4 balls of infinity out of 4.
God, I could watch it again for the 500th time.
Have wanted to re-watch this classic lately but I only own the old crappy NTSC MGM DVD. :( Seems to be some serious trouble making a properly done release of this one, some good info on the various video release problems here: http://www.forafewdollarsmore.net/ The German DVD came close. Wasn't there someone on this board a few years ago who made a DVD of the uncut version with the original english audio?
As it still may be some time until I can do a bit-perfect rip of this audio track, I can upload a decent capture for you of the Dolby 2.0 Surround, if you're eager to just hear the 70mm mix, I actually own a mint condition copy of this LD myself now. :) It's wave, in unedited form, split in two parts due to the side break, just let me know.
I had actually forgotten how jarring some of the music/sound editing was in some parts, from the moment when Nostromo is approaching the planet until they enter the atmosphere, the sound editing is surprisingly rough, it's actually hard to believe it was released this way, but I guess it was because of time constraints, the 70mm prints had to be out there day one.
But... many memories came back when I heard this track again, I owned a VHS copy of Alien released in Sweden in the late 80's or early 90's which I'm damned sure of had this same rough sound editing when Nostromo is approaching the planet, as I'm a little doubtful they utilized the 70mm mix for that old VHS release, I'm starting to wonder if this rough sound editing was part of the 35mm release as well.
Except, the few rough parts I mentioned, the 70mm mix is really great, good dynamic range with powerful bass content in various places, and it's very neat to hear all the subtle differences.
When I think about it again, I'm very doubtful the 70mm mix actually had split surround, the Dolby mix on Apocalypse Now is well known to be the first that utilized it, (it had been tested on Superman the year before) and Alien which was released the same year never gets any mention, Alien was in fact released before Apocalypse Now, which had only been screened at Cannes at that point. Btw here's a nice article on Alien 70mm openings: http://www.in70mm.com/news/2003/alien_in_70mm/index.htm
This one is straight from the capture after I've set the levels more accurately in AviSynth, I just tweaked the hue a bit to take down the red, not trying to match anything.
From there on you can get some pretty nice results, but the transfer needs some scene by scene correction, I don't have the time for it at the moment.
Haven't been able to check this out with headphones yet, but I trust you when you say it's still left buried in the mix, as you mentioned, there are many instances in the original Empire where this is the case, a more realistic soundfield was created compared to the bad SE remix.
I have also always heard Threepio's "and" in there, it's known to be present in the original mix.