jarbear

ThisIsCreation said:

jarbear said:

Lol … when you think about it … what a mess. Hahahaha … ahaha … (cries a bit)

It wouldn’t be star wars without a convoluted story. It’s been that way since they retroactively made Anakin & Vader the same person.

Not really. In a New Hope, there was something implied about Luke’s father. First, you have Uncle Owen not wanting to talk about Lukes Father. It was taboo to talk about him. Something was kind of fishy there.

Then when Luke asked Obi Wan about his father, you visually see Obi Wan react to the question, paused, and then told the “story” about his father.

There was something set up, or at least allowed the possibility of something significant about his father which made it believable, or at least “natural” about Vader being the father.

Unlike this trilogy, there was no set up or even hints about Palpy coming back to make it believable. (Heck, the leaked script for Dual of the Fates did not have Palpy be brought back, so this was never the plan even at the beginning or at TLJ). Let alone the lore before it, but that’s a side topic.

I get the reasoning for it, but to me, it sticks out as “off” because it’s both such a quick shot and feels “rushed” but it visually sticks out since we see “shadow Leia” and then the medal shot is “full on light.” It just … doesn’t feel right.

However I like the idea behind it … it’s a shame what they did with the scene to make it feel so disconnected with the medal. I’d love it if they did something in a scene before seeing the back of Leia going through a box of things and pulls out the medal. We the audience thinks, what’s the point of that? And then later on we get the scene we see her and then make the connection with that scene and the end of the movie.

Such a shame.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Yeah, I mean there is still a bit of a problem with it. For example, why would Palpatine not keep tabs on his own son or at least keep him nearby? Only when he has this vision of Rey does he realize he needs to catch them, or even kill them. He clearly wasn’t thinking ahead there. If he was smart, he would have taken her as soon as she was born. Unless (and this is likely the answer here) he didn’t know that his son got into a relationship with a woman and had a child until he had the vision. But that still begs the question: why not keep track of his activities?

At least with the Rey Nobody version this isn’t an issue. He would have no relations with Rey’s family until he sees what she will become in this vision, and then sends Ochi to track down this mystery family.

It’s almost like there wasn’t really any planning story wise for this whole thing …

Oh wait. Lol.

Lol … when you think about it … what a mess. Hahahaha … ahaha … (cries a bit)

It’s a fine line between having a lying character and confusing/inconsistent/bad writing.

Hal 9000 said:

I haven’t sat down with it yet but I like that. Might even be good to reverse “Empress Palpatine” and “you will take the throne.”

Might be able to mess with it today or tomorrow. We’ll have to see.

That can work to help push away the idea he was waiting a long time for her specifically to be the empress … when he changed his mind about it 5 minutes ago. lol.

Long have I waited … You will take the throne … Empress Palpatine.

The emphasis is not him waiting for a long time for her to take the throne, it fits more of him waiting a long time for someone to take the throne.

Tobar said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I guess you could make the argument for Rey not showing up. Luke kinda messed up by convincing her to leave Ahch-To, come to think of it. Ben likely would have realized Rey wasn’t on Exegol, and the two of them would have just chilled elsewhere while the Resistance launched an attack on Exegol.

Fairly certain that Finn, Poe, and co. would have gotten rid of all the Star Destroyers in that battle. Their actions never relied on the Palpatine interactions, did they?

Oh boy, I’m never going to be able to forget this plot hole now.

There would never have been a battle since Rey is the one that showed them how to reach Exegol.

That would have left the Final Order fleet free reign to fully deploy and spread out across the galaxy destroying countless worlds and then holding a proverbial blaster to the head of the galaxy.

True, but in some ways that wasn’t needed since D0 was from Exegol and could in theory direct them. Not saying one way or the other, but in some ways, the plotting of the course seems a bit unnecessary where you see Rey making tight maneuvers plotting the course but we see some HUGE ships appearing later with Lando … heck, even the Star Destroyers would need to get out …

Anyway, to say it simply … the movie already gives us an “out” of not needing Rey’s “plot the course” when we have DO, who’s from Exegol, could give them direction … let alone the idea that a bunch of other ships, from big to small, wouldn’t have been able to do, or are too big, to do the maneuvers that were shown.

It would have been nice if the palpy and pryde scene was longer and could have had palpy day something like “kylo has betrayed me/ no longer part of plan / etc and it’s time for plan b.” Something like that would have been nice or at least connect some dots.

But I agree removing those lines helps.

Hal 9000 said:

It wouldn’t solve as many things as elegantly, as to me it still begs the question “why was Palpatines literal or figurative puppet so keen on killing her last time?”

Because … the puppet … erm … had a bad connection? Low bars … bad WiFi?

RogueLeader said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Neerb said:

Uh… two is better than one? I guess?

TestingOutTheTest suggested keeping the “lifeforce of your bond” thing in, which sounds just as handwavy as a Dyad without distracting us with proper nouns. If Palpatine was Snoke, then Snoke giving them a bond could be a long-game setup (in story payoff, not literal planning) for Palpatine to drink that bond up. Would just need to lessen/cut out Palp’s surprise when it happens, along with Kylo saying in the hangar that Palps doesn’t know.

How many times do I have to say this? Snoke and Palpatine aren’t the same individual; yes, Snoke listens to Palpatine, but it isn’t like he is some sort of VR avatar Palpatine controls.

Regardless of this apparent fact, the text of the film makes this ambiguous. When Palpatine tells Kylo that he has been every voice in his head, and demonstrates this by literally using Snoke’s voice, it makes Snoke’s status as an independent individual unclear to the audience. Sure, maybe Snoke was his own person, but Palpatine also occasionally spoke in Kylo’s head using Snoke’s voice, but that is left up for the audience to interpret, and I guarantee not everyone came out of that film with the same interpretation (which I think this thread demonstrates well enough).

The movie leaves a lot for the audience to figure out, though, and if I have to go find external resources to have that question answered, or have some stranger on the internet lecture me for not understanding it, then I consider that the filmmakers’ failure for not being able to communicate their intention to the audience clearly. Maybe they wanted to leave it ambiguous to maintain a little mystery, but you seem adamant that there are hard answers to all of these questions. But if I had to guess, the filmmakers were honestly not sure what the answer was themselves, and left it ambiguous so someone else could answer it, or let the audience pick whichever interpretation they preferred.

Maybe I’m just not smart enough to understand the nuanced storytelling that is The Rise of Skywalker.

Preach!

Your last paragraph made me think … even the writers were unsure. Lol

Palpy clearly has Dementia …

Man this trilogy was so mishandled. Lol.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

jarbear said:

One thing that kinda blows out any logic is the whole transfer thing. If there is a transfer … then … they turn into Palps AKA All the Sith/Whatever. So in a sense … it’s a take over. Even if it is not his specific consciousness … then it’s the influence of ALL the Sith, so it’s still a “win” for the Sith. Whoever get’s that transfer becomes The Sith Guy TM. So wouldn’t not matter who it is?

If Kylo slices Palps, he takes over Kylo. Now Kylo/Palps/Sith all faces Rey. Whoever wins, The Palpy/Sith All either stays or takes over. The only possible “lose” scenario is if he gets hit by his own lighting? I guess?

One of the reasons I don’t like this concept JJ and crew came up with.

It matters who it is. Of course, this once again relies on Midichlorians, but he needed the person with the most force potential to inherit the Sith spirit.

Furthermore, he needs the person killing him to be doing it out of anger and vengeance. Not as a Jedi.

It also doesn’t hurt to have the killing be more of an indirect method, yes. That would almost guarantee he couldn’t do anything.

Lol, although that is their rationale I’m sure … boy it doesn’t make sense. How does motive matter if there is a transfer. What was the motive of whatever Palps first went into after his fall at the DSII? that’s why the whole thing is goofy. Was there a series of Palpy clones, who hated each other, that made a long line from the DSII floating in space with spacesuits that kept slicing each other until the one on a planet or shuttle with the doors open?

Heck, you can use the rationale it wasn’t hate or vengeance for Rey, where the motivation was to save her friends. It was stop him or everyone get’s killed. Heck, you see it on her face of how sad she was and not just some angry vengeful person. It was do this or your friends die. Sith don’t care about people.

Sorry I don’t meant to derail the thread … it’s just the … ughhhhness of this movie drives me crazy.I’ll stop the current discussion about it since there’s nothing you can do for this really. Sorry ya’ll.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Hal 9000 said:

I don’t plan to remove the blue smoke from poppasketti in any event, no.

Another thing is that Palpatine wanting Rey dead at the start of TROS is consistent with Snoke/Palpatine sincerely ordering her execution. His change of mind is still baffling in any event.

Pretty sure that months ago somebody outlined Palpatine’s plan but here it goes again.

1. Palpatine puts all of his effort into corrupting Ben Solo.
2. Palpatine wants Snoke to have Kylo kill Rey because he is planning on essence transferring into Kylo
3. He had already put a ton of effort into corrupting Kylo, so yet again he tells him to kill Rey.
4. Kylo realigns himself with the light, and Palpatine senses it. His new goal is to corrupt Rey and essence transfer into her.

One thing that kinda blows out any logic is the whole transfer thing. If there is a transfer … then … they turn into Palps AKA All the Sith/Whatever. So in a sense … it’s a take over. Even if it is not his specific consciousness … then it’s the influence of ALL the Sith, so it’s still a “win” for the Sith. Whoever get’s that transfer becomes The Sith Guy TM. So wouldn’t not matter who it is?

If Kylo slices Palps, he takes over Kylo. Now Kylo/Palps/Sith all faces Rey. Whoever wins, The Palpy/Sith All either stays or takes over. The only possible “lose” scenario is if he gets hit by his own lighting? I guess?

One of the reasons I don’t like this concept JJ and crew came up with.

Hal 9000 said:

I rewatched TFA and TLJ over the last two days, the first time watching either since TROS came out. This was my first ‘full hindsight’ viewing, assessing how the story washes over me after I know how it all turns out.

I found TFA relatively free of tension with TROS. Rey maintains hope of her parents returning for her, though comes to admit that she is lying to herself and turns her attention to Luke. She awakens the Force within her, including aggression and darkness at the end. Snoke is a shadowy figure who we know is working behind the scenes for Palpatine, likely the way Dooku does. TROS:A alleviates this weirdness by not requiring the audience to see Snoke as a totally artificial being who would be technically very young.

TLJ was surprisingly smooth also, with Snoke again being the weirdest part. It does not seem at all hinted at that he is a cloned vessel, so I prefer to think of him as a Dooku-esque recruit with a history all his own that we don’t see. Ben cannot bring himself to kill Leia, who goes on to represent the last vestige of light that comes to redeem him. Rey and Luke fear her inner darkness. Rey’s parents do feel like a weird point here, as Rey seems to admit to herself that her parents really did ‘throw her away like garbage’ and ‘sold her off for drinking money.’ Her initial memories of them and their noble promises give way to letting them go and no longer concerning herself with the good-for-nothings. Then, in TROS she has these repressed ‘bad hope’ memories and longings reignited by being forced to again view them as noble and good. I guess. Luke saves the day, making the difference between no one coming to help on Crait when the Resistance calls for help and everyone coming in TROS.

It seems healthy for Rey to move on from her attachment to her parents, with TFA and TLJ agreeing. For TROS to essentially say, “Oh, no, you’re wrong, they were actually good people” seems like a regression. Rey had already grown past them, y’know?

I guess I’ll have to watch TROS next in order to take the whole ST story in within a short timeframe and see what else sticks out to me. Also, I watched my fan edits so there honestly may be other things that didn’t stick out because they’ve been addressed and I didn’t think about them.

There is that disconnect between TLJ and TROS in regards with that (which we know there’s a lot of disconnect between these two movies).

She starts with TFA “waiting for people that won’t come back.” then to “They are nobodies” in TLJ and then to “They were good people, AVENGE THEM!”

Of course it’d be good to view the edits together to let it stew a bit … but it does seem to be something that needs to be addressed, even with a Palpy or non-Palpy family edits. For just an initial reaction, would it help to have her in TLJ NOT say there were nobodies and just have Kylo “talk at her” about them, be it his thoughts or misunderstandings about them. She doesn’t respond, but doesn’t refute it, maybe even agreeing with his assessment or something since she doesn’t know the truth, but it is a “reasonable” conclusion about them.

Her response in TLJ was perceived more of an “admitting the truth since she was lying to herself” and not just a gut response since, well, they haven’t come back to her so they must have just ditched her since they were drunks or whatever.

By removing her responding to Kylo in that scene, it make make it more natural to have the “answer” about her parents in the next movie. There’s no definitive answer yet. That way it’s more of what HE is saying about them, and not the truth. Remember to: Dark Side/Bad Guys are not about the truth, they are manipulators and he is clearly trying to get her on his side by whatever means.

Of course, just an initial thought, could change in time.

NeverarGreat said:

jarbear said:

Anyone else find it weird that the Falcon crashed? even if the “landing gear” isn’t working … don’t these things land more like a helicopter than a jet airplane? lol.

You’re looking at this too literally, Jarbear. It’s an artistic and thematic message that nothing in the movie is able to fly.

Oh man, I feel so foolish! Thanks for correcting me! haha!

Honestly, I wouldn’t add Anakin at the end since he has no connection whatsoever to Rey and would stick out. What Jonh has done for the Palpy fight is perfect. (Of course I agree, with many people, that Anakin was/is such an important part of Star Wars that they overlooked big time. Sigh.)

I’d much prefer the alternate take people have done (sorry been too long … was it Dominic?) that has Rey NOT saying Skywalker and “just Rey.” The “Skywalker” Saga is over and she’s doing her own thing.

Anyone else find it weird that the Falcon crashed? even if the “landing gear” isn’t working … don’t these things land more like a helicopter than a jet airplane? lol.

Hal 9000 said:

Just had a disturbing thought: Do you think Maz Kanata was dying during TROS? She sure seemed rigid, like rigor mortis was setting in.

Her battlefront Skype video call did a number on her.

I hate the dagger. A terrible McGuffin’s McGuffin that makes no sense.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Yeah at this point I’m fairly certain the dyad budded during the interrogation scene of TFA. I seem to recall people freaking out because Rey “downloaded” Kylo’s training in the novelization of that scene. From that point, it’s up to debate whether Snoke should be the one to enhance it further, or if it should evolve on its own naturally (which is what I prefer).

The whole Dyad thing was JJ’s way to kinda fix that whole “download thing” as well as "light and dark meets up (power wise) from TLJ (just my opinion since that’s just an added bonus to me).

So I don’t disagree with you the whole Dyad thing is meant to be “there the whole time” but it gets confusing with Snoke’s “Mind Bridge” since we the audience see the “Dyadness antics” are shown after what Snoke “apparently does.” (Able to communicate visually, water droplets, etc."

I try to put myself in the seat of your “average” person watching the movie. Regardless of rationale or using “outside sources” (AKA books, etc.) to explain things isn’t really fair for the majority of the viewers. There is rationale that can be implied, IE Snoke didn’t know the full extent of the “dyad” stuff, even if he was an IMPLIED meat puppet / Palps then wouldn’t know … but it is still confusing and gives off the Plot Hole Vibe.

So TL:DR, taking out the every voice line removes any doubt of conflict on what has happened before. Still can keep the “I made Snoke” since it is still fairly ambiguous, especially with the Snoke Vats being turned into Palpy Vats.

Per your request earlier …

https://vimeo.com/512589101
PW: fanedit

Burbin said:

My reasoning for putting the line “I made Snoke” over the shot of the Sith machinery was precisely to cut on the dead space between it and “The first order was just the begging”, connecting the two. It could probably be tightened and better paced by someone that knows proper editing.

I dunno, to me that single line is even more damaging to the plot of the previous movies than making Rey a Palpatine. Blurring the line between Snoke and Palpatine makes the struggles in VII & VIII feel like a joke. The whole fight against the First Order, and Kylo freeing himself from Snoke’s grasp. It all just feels like nothing (that + the Snoke pickle jar, it’s like they wanted it to feel like a joke). All of that just to insert a James Earl Jones cameo. If they’re kept as separate entities, at least they’d each be a separate threat that is dealt with in each movie.

I learned some time ago, with this movie, and all the sequel movies honestly, is to watch them with this viewpoint:

Makes sense when you don’t think about it.

They don’t care about what came before it or use logic, so why should we. Lol.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

jarbear said:

Also, if the focus on the fanedit is to remove the “direct” link of snoke and palpable (aka Snoke the Meat Puppet) then why have that line? If Snoke vats are no more and the idea is Snokes origin is now ambiguous, in that Palps “I made him” is not literal, then why have the line?

Well, I know we don’t have to abide by canon, but Snoke is a strand-cast, or biologically engineered individual. As a result, even I thought it was stupid to show a vat full of Snoke clones, because Snoke ISN’T a clone. That would be like creating an extremely detailed work of art and then creating it exactly the same way a second and third time. It’s near impossible.

As a standcast, he does have his own free will. However, through the manipulation of genetics and Palpatine he is at some times forced to do certain things and think certain ways. And I already stated in my previous post why Snoke’s actions against Kylo actually line up with Palpatine’s.

I get there is an explanation, but one of my personal gripes is for a movie to have the audience to then either read the books, comics, tweets/interviews from the director AFTER, etc. for explanations on important things that involve the plot and the story. Just my opinion.

As the movie stands, it pretty much implies that Snoke is a meat puppet since Palps uses his voice, and Vaders, to Kylo saying he is ALL those voices influencing him. So for the sake of the audience, it’s best to leave it ambiguous instead of so concrete.

As Burbin mentioned, which I agree with, the simple removal of the line doesn’t really change anything on the facts of the matter. It just leaves it more open to interpretation.

As for a personal view too, it’s better to at least imply there is distinction to the two since in the last movie, although it is a retcon now of the whole Kylo/Rey Mind Bridge connection is now the Dyad stuff … Palps was utterly surprised during the force draining thing … when we have Snoke in the previous movie that “he bridged their minds.” If Snoke is the Meat Puppet, then Palps did it … so there should be no surprise.

Now I know the whole Dyad thing was of JJ doings to help explain things and it was not the concept at all from the previous movie, and you can argue he just bridged their minds as in being able to communicate in the force, but at another level compared to like Luke and Vader reaching out in the original movies and didn’t know about there Dyadness/in the room/etc., but for the audience we saw it in the last movie and now it has a name … and Snoke did something in the last movie to affect what we saw then and now … but he is Palpatine’s Meat Puppet … Why is he surprised and taken back by it? Even if he didn’t know for sure, he would have suspected something … but he didn’t.

Just a simple thing to fix that “kinda” plot hole.

Burbin is right.

The line doesn’t work even in the original cut of the movie when you think about it, especially on the Snoke side per Buebins rationale.

Also, if the focus on the fanedit is to remove the “direct” link of snoke and palpable (aka Snoke the Meat Puppet) then why have that line? If Snoke vats are no more and the idea is Snokes origin is now ambiguous, in that Palps “I made him” is not literal, then why have the line?

Hal 9000 said:

Vader’s TIE won out over the shuttle 70/30 with 110 votes.

Yes please!