Oh dear. What in the world was JJ thinking? …
So yeah, Sith eyes replacing … milky eyes … is a MUCH better choice.
Hey when you have a chance, can you PM a link as well? Do you have 1080 version?
Yeah so maybe the first flash of Rey on the throne she could have normal eyes, but then replace her milky eyes in the second flash with Sith eyes. That would ease into it as well.
Wait … it’s been too long since I’ve seen it, she has milky eyes in the vision? LOL. What the heck? That is lame. Milky white eyes doesn’t even begin to associate with Sith.
I think JJ forgot what he did with Palps (being some decaying clone/thingy) and what Sith eyes are. If he took a moment and rent the previous star wars movies … 😛
I understand sade1212 your view on it and don’t disagree with that view on it.
I would be curious as I mentioned how it would “look” as the audience in the movie, or specifically, if the idea of something “sticks out too much” which is a very subjective thing and am not saying it will be or won’t be. Just gotta try it to find out since things that sound good don’t work out or things that doesn’t seem like it would work actually does!
So with the eyes (hehe), I’d like to visually see the “Rey sith eyes” only in key moments first. Such as, the vision she has of herself as the “Sith Empress” and only “hissing Rey clone moment.” That way it’s a good “first step” how it would look to the audience.
One of my reasons too of not seeing the sith eyes during the whole time with “Rey Clone” is it kinda eases Rey and the Audience into that scene a little bit. She is confused and fightened, yes, but not freaking out yet actually seeing her “somewhat physically” but not exactly as she envisioned … yet.
@Testingoutthetest I am not opposed to that idea and it sounds very interesting to help “prolong” the reveal of Palpatine. Seeing a mock up of it would be nice to see. I can only think it may “seem” strange where we havn’t seen him speak a different language in the saga and he would need to at some point explicitly bring out he is speaking the “Sith” language for the sake of the audience to somewhat “explain” why he is speaking something other than basic which we haven’t heard him do.
So again, not against the idea, would need to see it played out and would need to basically be using his voice but messing around with the words/parts of words/etc so it is clearly him and not some voice over trying to sound like him.
To Hal: yep that’s the gist.
For the eyes, my thoughts for now, but can change, is the yellow eyes are involving visions. So when she sees herself it’s in full on Sith Mode.
Also the Rey “clone” scene the eyes are just yellow at the hiss.
For now, with this method, it’s not overdone for the time being and it’s more like what she’s afraid of becoming. We know that sith = yellow eyes so her visions are her as Sith Rey. Just as we see Palps restored and he is “back” to being full on Sith.
Who was it that did the sample eye test for Rey? I think having her Sith eyes during the hiss would be a complement to everything described there. I’d also be interested to see it applied to her vision.
It was from Sade! (Had to check! 😛) I could see using a shot (zoomed in maybe if using 4K source?) with the yellow eyes for the “destroyer vision
However, in the “death star … Dark Rey moment?” Her eyes only turn Sith at the hiss part. So it’s not a 1:1 use of any footage and really hits home!
The dagger is now part of struggle using the dark. I like it.
“Is the dark side stronger?”
“No! no, no… quicker, easier, more seductive."With what the movie does, the changes that have been done so far, and things being proposed this is what I’m thinking:
As Jarbear said, we’ve been seeing Rey being drawn to the dark side in TLJ, and you could argue even in TFA. She’s been using it as a shortcut to achieve her goals. Now cut to TRoS, where we finally see her trying to slow down and train as a Jedi, but it’s not working, she calls to the Jedi but no one answers, during the training course we see that her Jedi fighting technques are failing her, we see her get more and more angry, lose control, and take that shortcut again to finally hit the ball. Her use of the dark side here ends up triggering a vision (unlike the theatrical where everything, even Rey getting mad, is implied to be a by-product of her connection to Kylo). So here we see first hand that there is darkness inside her, and we have a vision of her turning dark.
Now on Pasaana, she finds a Sith dagger, and as soon as she picks it up, it calls to her through whispers in her head, she gets a worried look (we cut the mom scream and the line “horrible things have happened with this”). The lightsaber once called to her, and we took it as a sign she was destined to become a Jedi, but we now see the opposite. The lightsaber is now silent and broken because of her choices in TLJ, perhaps she broke her chance to become a Jedi, maybe now her destiny is to become a Sith, just like we saw in the vision.
Then on Kijimi the inscription in the dagger is translated, and it is revealed that the dagger calls out to those with great darkness within them or something like that, something that cements that the reason she heard those whispers is that the dagger sensed her inner darkness. Then she hears those whispers once more on Kylo’s ship, and she ends up following them. When she finds the dagger she again looks worriedly as it starts whispering to her again, only now she understands what that means (so you could even keep her saying “no” as in “no, I’m not evil, stop talking to me”). Then, if that idea pans out, she would have a vision here. You could sprinkle some more evil Rey foreshadowing in it as it’s very relevant.
“If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will”
So now by the time we get to Endor, everything is setup in it’s place for the edit that’s already in V1. Now it’s clear that following those whispers means Rey is descending deeper and deeper into the dark side, culminating in her meeting her “true self” inside the Wayfinder room. Now Kylo’s words ring far more true to the audience: “Look at yourself. You wanted to prove to my mother that you were a Jedi… but you’ve proven something else.”
Rey chooses to literally “follow” the dark path, which consumes her to the point she ends up stabbing Kylo with no hesitation. It truly feels like she can’t escape her destiny of becoming a Sith, so she exiles herself on Ach-to. But now in this version Luke not only gives her a pep-talk, he gives her a new, fully functioning lightsaber, a new chance to fully embrace the Jedi. So now on Exegol the struggle is clear, recover the light or embrace the dark, and notice how she doesn’t use the new saber until she finally chooses to firmly stand against the dark as a Jedi. It’s almost like this is how it was always meant to be.
YES. No follow up comments needed except … YES.
Oh god, haha, yeah. So Rey learns about Endor when she picks up the Dagger again while on Kylo’s ship. Whoops, sorry everyone if I added to the confusion!
Also, to build on Jar Jar’s point, I had an idea super late last night that we could maybe color Rey’s eyes yellow right before she gets the vision, to help visually distinguish between “holding” the Dagger and “giving in” to the Dark Side and unlocking its secrets.
And Hal, my initial pitch was to cut down on the idea that 3PO can “translate” the Dagger, but he can’t say that translation. I was thinking just emphasize that he would just tell them, “Well, I know it’s Sith, but I can’t read it.”
Original line removal: https://streamable.com/snti9d
Bonus Rey line removal: https://streamable.com/g624m1I think that’s what we’re talking about, in part? I feel like we’re having four different conversations about the dagger, and they all overlap slightly.
Yeah, that direction would work for me either of those two. Even though I spoke my dislike of her like about the bad thing about the dagger (doing bad things when she is wielding the Youngling Slayer 9000) it does give a moment for the scene to breath and her comment get’s everyone’s attention to look at it and see there is writing on it.
^ Sherlock, you talking about having Finn mention Endor while they’re on the way? Yeah, I think that’d be just fine if we go that route.
And it’s all okay if the 3PO dagger idea ends up not working well enough to… work. It’s intriguing at least, but I’m skeptical it could make the dagger thing feel like it was folded into the Wayfinder and feel even more redundant.
The other benefit of this concept of the Dagger being ‘broader’ in purpose is it actually makes it less redundant in the movie. Rey uses the dagger, points to the Wayfinder. She gets it, which then Kylo destroys. So the whole point of it was pretty much … crushed so to speak.
So now that it is a broader thing, as in not solely fixated on the way finder … it’s not so tied to that one thing.
@jarJar = Yes sir!
Of course, this does mean an overhaul on C3P0 and crew’s conversation about the dagger, but it still can retain the lines of 3P0 does say it was a clue Luke was looking for, as part of his journey looking for stuff, which is why the crew still think it’s important enough to translate.
Wow this makes a whole lot more sense now. Sorry about the misconception.
No problem dude, I’m the king of misconception. Lol! That’s where I like these conversations to really hash it out and think about all the angles! Plus it reveals I missed a point about the conversation on the timing of the vision. Haha! Not every idea works, but thought maybe this could?
(I never get mad or irritated if people disagree, I like the discussion since it always helps me clear stuff up or realize I am missing something! Sometimes I just go on and on to make sure my idea make sense/or is clear-ish … since we know how bad I am at typing. Lol) 😄
I don’t particularly have an issue with having it be ancient. My problem is letting it show Rey anything up until 3PO has revealed how to use the dagger. After that point, Rey can use it to find it the wayfinder. That isn’t an issue.
So no visions when she first touches it in the cave. That is a bad idea.
EDIT:
Oh was that the idea of having the vision in the cave? I obviously missed that, I was thinking of the "Endor/DSII/Wayfinder of vision AFTER she takes it on the destroyer. If I missed that point from Rogue’s concept, my bad!
I would do the vision when she picks up the dagger at the destroyer, has the vision and gets “snapped out of it” when Kyle says her name.
@jarjar I get your points and you are not wrong at all. Especially if you want to keep the “purpose” of the dagger as it is, but just less goofy than the original cut of the movie. Which is already a great step in the right direction.
However, if one of the ideas is to have the dagger appear to be ancient, at least specifically, prior to the events in the original trilogy, having it not be specific to Endor would help sell it. As to whatever it says, I think your thinking that anything that is not specific to the location a la C3PO than it ruins the plot/purpose of it.
I don’t personally think it does if you view it in this context (If the dagger says something more on the lines it will lead you using the dark side, or whatever).
Rey has used the dark side previous, or at least “followed” that part, or at least the “shortcuts that lead to the dark side” in The Last Jedi (and arguably TFA with the final saber battle, though that is debatable and not overt like in TLJ). Rey sees the Dark Side Hole, Luke explains it is strong in the dark side. What does she do? Well, she “dives in” via vision. Even after Luke’s freak out after her doing that … what does Ray do? Well, after, again, knowing it is from the dark side AND PROVIDES INFORMATION/HELP (it was after she did that she talks about not seeing Luke in the Force AFTER taking the vision plunge) she goes back to it for information to help her. In a way, she was using the dark side … for good intentions in her mind. She wanted to learn her parent’s identity. So again, she ‘choses’ to dip into the Dark Side.
So now, flash forward to TROS. Specifically at the confrontation between Palps. Palps reveals she has to kill him to save her friends. Again, taking the short cut (that leads to the dark side) for something she needs (save her friends.) You see the conflict this time since there is an actual cost to her decision. Just think about this. If Ben did not come … what would Rey have done? We don’t know, she may have chosen to kill Palps since it would mean sacrificing herself, but stopping the attack on her friends. But with Ben coming, she chose the right decision (the hard one to team up with Ben to go up against Palps and his guards/knights) to face him.
So now to this dagger, if one was to go the route about it more like using the dark side to lead the person to their desire or way to exegol or whatever. How does Rey know what the dagger does? 3PO translates it. Before deciding anything, FO comes and the plan is to save Chewy after she senses him. When she is on the destroyer, what does she do? Go to the dagger. She has the knowledge that this Dark Side thingy will lead to what she wants/needs. Again, for good intentions to save the galaxy from Palps if she gets the Wayfinder to go to Exegol. From this point, she decides to use it and that is when the dagger begins to speak to her, since she chose to retrieve it and use it knowing she would have to use the Dark Side.
So the dagger leads the person (or who it choses) to what they desire or something like that. So it’s not Orchi’s dagger, but using it to find and kill her parents. It could be revenge. And if you do add the whole “choses” or whatever, can explain why Orchi couldn’t find Rey since it “stopped talking” or whatever.
We already have places and things both sides of the Force are either strong with or contain, so having a special dagger isn’t something too random. The dark side, as previously explained is the person taking short cuts using the force which eventually corrupts the individual. So that is the conflict for Rey. She’s used the dark side before, but hasn’t bore any of the consequences. Is it that bad to use, for good intentions or for good reason? That is the final choice at the end of the movie, which she choses not to do, hence her resolve not to and she is “rewarded” in a sense she finally connects with the Jedi.
EDIT: Yes I know I am over thinking things, just trying to come up with an idea to make the dagger more ancient, powered by the dark which Rey choses to use and why Orchi originally had it. LOL.
Love the enthusiasm, jarbear, but I think you’re overthinking this a little. The Dagger is a glorified plot device.
LOL, oh no, that’s true. I hate this thing they included in the movie. A McGuffin’s McGuffin. Sigh. Hahahah.
That is an interesting idea jarbear. It makes the dagger less of a way finder for the Wayfinder, and more of an independent tool. Though it might raise questions of why he didn’t use it to find Rey before leaving Jakku.
EDIT: Maybe she could hear whispers of “Endor” and “Death Star” rather than literally seeing it. And Rey didn’t know how to use it when she first picked it up, but I can see the fear of that not being explicit.
Yeah, not a perfect idea and doens’t cover everything, but is that question worse than “why a dagger that points to something that points to something?” Hahaha!
But in all seriousness, I get that it may not solve everything, but maybe with some vision stuff it may help. Without 3P0 translating it, she/they wouldn’t know it is significant for Rey to use. She also would have to acklowdge she may need to give in a bit to find the Wayfinder with the dagger which she wouldn’t come to that conclusion without the translation.
Of course I have been obsessing over the dagger and the changes to make it ancient. One problem I thought of is, why is Orchi carrying it? If the purpose of the dagger is to lead a person to the way finder … why does he need it? He’s from Exegol. He knows where it is. So why carry it?
So a thought I had was, again, to make this an ancient Sith/dark side thing is to make the dagger’s purpose is for such ones to "find their desire. (Dark side purpose).
Here is the thought. Orchi has the dagger to find Rey’s parents to kill them. For him, although it is an Order from Palps, his desire is to exact revenge on Palpy’s Clone son who “left them, aka the Sith Culture” …which is his personal desire to to kill him for that. Basically, kill him because he is a traitor. So the dagger helped Orchi to find her parents, aka the father who “betrayed” the Sith. (heck, didn’t he even smile before he stabbed them?)
So for Rey, her desire is to find the Wayfinder to lead her to Exegol. She’s already battling the Dark Side and is in ways following it. The movie has already established that’s what she is looking for. So the inscription of the Dagger could be something like:
“The Blade shall speak to the one who walks the dark path to lead them to their desire. Only this blade tells.”
Not that exact wording, but something on those lines. So it 1.) Orchi has a good reason to have it and 2.) Rey will be lead to the Wayfinder, her desire, and having more whispers and visions sells that … the dark side/dagger is showing her the way.
Even upscaled shots on Topaz does indeed add good quality, but I don’t think it would be enough to really “fit” into the film. Not saying using such an idea is bad, it just may stick out. Unless maybe it is upscaled and the entire “vision” scene has a filter to help hide stuff, but that path too would stick out since all the previous “visions” do not have a filter or distorted look to them.
One could play with it, always up for trying, just not sure it would fit in. I guess a quick shot could in theory work, but how quick and how well it will work? Not sure!
As for the saying, being vague is good. Especially connecting it to the vision Rey has helps fill in the dots.
Fine point about any “chosen one” wording or whatnot in considering a Rey Nobody version. I mean, however to imply to both versions would be good. However, there should be SOMETHING special about the dagger working for Rey, or even Kylo, in regards to taking the Sith throne specifically, in which a person like Orchi isn’t able to become. (But regardless, make it work)
I would be hesitant to use any footage from ROTJ since it would visually stick out due to the resolution and whatnot from the original film. Just personal view it may stick out a bit too much.
True, that’s a good point. I am curious what route the translation will go with this idea. I dunno if it would be “too on the nose” that the dagger gives actual tangible location regarding its, kinda guiding/prophecy.
If there wasn’t to be such a ‘written’ location of sorts to keep it broad, it could be something like “When these words are read, the heir/disciple/etc. -insert text - -text about guiding/etc. - only this blades tells.”
Something on the lines that when the words are read, since it is a sith language, then the dagger is “activated to the heir/chosen one/whatever” since it is in sith language, not just a random person can pick it up and it will do stuff.
Meh, I am not good at writing, so I apologize to those reading my stuff. Lol.
EDIT; One of the keys to the new translation has to really imply that the dagger will guide the “chosen” one. SO even with Orchi, who had possession of the dagger and logically could read it, it doesn’t guide him to anything. It wouldn’t “talk to him” in anyway. So something that points out it works only with the “chosen one” is good to have. So it’s not about it leading to the wayfinder specifically, just guides her towards the throne, which in this case, the Wayfinder is needed to navigate to Exegol.
However the crew works on the ancient dagger concept, I dunno what direction the translation will go. I dunno if having any of the text give them a clue is necessary, especially if they include a vision when she touches the dagger on the star destroyer scene it gives us some glimpses of the Death Star ruins and the throne. (It would help for it to not feel like screen grabing scenes if maybe some of those shots are taken from the 4K source and zoomed in on spots so it is not a 1:1 screen grabs? Not necessary, but just thought of it)
If there isn’t any actual clues to the translation, just telling the crew the dagger will guide the Heir/dark side/etc. etc. would it be good or bad to have that vision Rogue mentioned to have a it say endor at the end in a very sith like way? Not saying one way or the other, but would that help? It’s kinda hard to match audio clips using your own audio to then match the sith whisper clips … so it may stick out… Hmmm.
Sorry I’m rambling since im excited to see if this idea could work.
I like the idea of the Sith eyes, but only have it when she does the Hissy thing. I feel like having it the whole time is a bit too much.
Also … the idea if the “real” Rey gets a super subtle yellow eye whenever she “kind of” commits to anything dark side would be interesting.
Also there is some work about the dagger? Changing a bit of C3P0’s dialogue? I am so down on that if it can be accomplished. Oh my goodness. What’s the plan on it?
Whenever Rey does Dark Side stuff? So…the lightning moment. And some of the vision stuff.
…
Great job establishing an internal conflict, Chris Terrio!
We’re trying to implement some of RogueLeader’s new ideas, which were detailed here: https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Star-Wars-The-Rise-Of-Skywalker-Redux-Ideas-thread/id/71460/page/161#1421215
Basically, rather than having a literal map with literal coordinates, Rey will have to submit herself to the Dark Side to a degree. Then, the Dagger will present her with a vision of wherever the Wayfinder happens to be located (i.e. presently, Endor). So, it’s not really a “prophecy”; but just trying to work in more elements of Rey’s darkness, and also making the Dagger-map feel less stupid. (I still don’t know who carved the damn thing. Was it Ochi? He always did want to be an artist.)
Thanks for that clarification and pointing to that post. I like those ideas. A lot. RogueLeader does it again with his ideas!
Also, having the Dagger be more of a “compass” of sorts works well, especially the point he made about why Rey goes back for the Dagger. Her response of “a feeling” adds more to that rational. I mean, the original cut of the movies has her go retrieve the dagger because of “a feeling” even though they got the information they needed about the wayfinder. So this concept gives it more purpose of needing the dagger due to it having dark side Forceness to it without having a goofy convoluted origin and McGuffin to a McGuffin aspect of it (Really, shaped and hand a ‘pointer’. Really?!). I. Like. It.
I like the word play of what I suggested. The two won’t take the throne for themselves, but they instead take the throne away from him.
That would be funny, again, since both Force Sides have prophecies that didn’t pan out.
However, for the book “canon” seems a bit wonky since Palpatine was wanting to have Rey killed by Kylo/Orchi … so was Palps working “against” the prophecy or something? It is a bit murky at best. (I kinda ask this but not really care since I don’t care what outside sources say on things, only in the movie counts to me. Personally. 😃)
I do like in Hal’s version trying to really leave Palp’s motivation/decision making up in the air and can be interpreted by the listener however.
You were suggesting the implementation of some sort of prophecy, so I simply suggested one that is currently already canon, even if it doesn’t appear in the film. Fairly certain it’s in the novelization.
So, following your outline… “two will take the throne from the ashes of the Emperor who ruled the galaxy”.
Ah, it’s in the book? Lol, of course! hahaha. (You know me and my view on such things. 😄)
But yeah, if it helps with the dagger and trying to make it more ancient and prophecy like … that would be neat … but yeah, i don’t really care too much how it is done, but that it can be done and makes the connection to going to endor. Man … I will be jumping up and down with joy.