I actively despised episode 6, but it seems to be a pretty popular episode of the show which shows that a lot of SW fans just have bad taste imo
“Bad taste” is a strong word. Just because someone else has a different opinion than you doesn’t make their opinion wrong.
I think The Mandalorian finally disproves the myth that Star Wars fans are impossible to please. The reaction to the show so far has been overwhelmingly positive. Even the small minority of people who don’t like the show aren’t angry about it.
I would say it proves the theory that many have had for awhile, which is that the only way to not make SW fans angry is to not play with the preexisting characters/story at all.
And is that such a big problem? Did they absolutely NEED to make a sequel trilogy? They could have kept Return of the Jedi as the true ending, and no one would have complained.
To that end, let’s check back in five or so years from now and see if everyone agrees on the quality of the Mandalorian’s final season.
Maybe the show will go downhill by then, we don’t know. It doesn’t mean that Star Wars fans are hypocrites.
Make a small-scale TV show that respects the canon and makes the audience care about the characters, and fans will eat it up.
The irony of course being that the show arguably disrespects the canon quite a bit in its treatment of Mandalorian culture.
I thought the show made it clear that Mando’s tribe is an extremist group, not necessarily connected to mainstream Mandalorian culture. Dave Filoni is one of the showrunners, and I doubt he would forget about his own story.
Also, I have a few friends who are haters. They definitely exist. But who cares if there are haters? Like what you like.
Amen to that.
Yeah, I guess “respect” isn’t the correct word. What matters is whether it adds to the canon in a respectful way. The sequels failed to do that in my opinion, so I’m excited to see what will happen in the future.
I think The Mandalorian finally disproves the myth that Star Wars fans are impossible to please. The reaction to the show so far has been overwhelmingly positive. Even the small minority of people who don’t like the show aren’t angry about it. Make a small-scale TV show that respects the canon and makes the audience care about the characters, and fans will eat it up.
I don’t pay attention to much StarWars noise outside of this site, but it seems that most here & those I’ve spoke to in life, have liked this show. That’s cool.
Anybody know of any haters?Go to the YouTube comment sections. You’ll find some before long.
But then again, the YouTube comment section is the worst part of humanity, so maybe we shouldn’t trust their word on things.
I agree. TLJ may have been a very mixed movie, but at least Rian had the courage to tell the story he wanted to tell. Both of JJ’s movies have just been 2 hours of responding to fan complaints, and they feel soulless because of it. I wish Rian directed the whole trilogy.
The reality is the PT is more well known as a series of memes than anything of note, and a lot of internet blogs trying to suggest otherwise are highly suspicious. But what else is new.
What’s so suspicious about people liking the prequels? The idea going around that people only like the prequels because of the memes is completely ridiculous. It’s just the natural result in a change of perspective. The old guard of the Star Wars fandom naturally dismisses the prequels, since their perspective on Star Wars is so heavily influenced by the OT. But the people who grew up with the prequels accept the visual style of those movies, which makes it easier for them to see both the good and the bad of those movies. The discussions over whether a Star Wars movie “feels like Star Wars” are completely subjective, since everyone’s definition of Star Wars is different.
I mean, I hate to defend TROS but the very first thing we see Rey doing in the movie is failing. Because of her failure, she decides to run the training course again, the implication being that she’s done this many times and so naturally knows it by heart at this point. They literally went out of their way to appease the fan complaints.
But who cares about what’s actually in the movies when you can put “Mary Sue” blinders on. Gotta twist everything to prove your narrative is right!
Doesn’t matter, Rey still doesn’t struggle enough in the first 2 movies, where the protagonist should struggle the most. It’s like putting whipped cream on a pile of dung, and trying to convince me that it’s actually an ice cream sundae.
And also, can you please stop responding to me with this condescending bullshit? I’m trying to have an intelligent conversation and you just keep belittling me.
I’m not trying to be condescending, but if you’re going to post something ridiculous my response will be likewise ridiculous. I don’t know what’s intelligent about warping the content of the films and then calling this made up version “dung.”
I’m not making anything up, I’ve posted evidence to back up my arguments. I don’t think I’m warping the content of the films, but since no one is going to change their mind about this, I’m going to leave this thread before things get nasty.
I mean, just for example you said the training scene shows us Rey is a Mary Sue, which is a statement that doesn’t hold up to any sort of scrutiny whatsoever. I explained why, and you had no refutation except to say “well what about the other movies!” It’s one thing to hold up the movies as they are and say, “well I get that this is what they were trying to do, this worked for me but this didn’t, and I think that hurts the character” or whatever. That’s an intelligent conversation. But when you’re being willfully ignorant, like with the training scene, it hurts your argument. I don’t know how to respond other than being snarky, if you’re not going to argue on the level I don’t know how I can.
I understand what you mean. I am emphasizing things that fit my point while de-emphasizing things that don’t, but that’s how most argumentative writing works. But like I said, I don’t want to talk about this movie any more. I don’t want the conversation to escalate or people to get banned.
I mean, I hate to defend TROS but the very first thing we see Rey doing in the movie is failing. Because of her failure, she decides to run the training course again, the implication being that she’s done this many times and so naturally knows it by heart at this point. They literally went out of their way to appease the fan complaints.
But who cares about what’s actually in the movies when you can put “Mary Sue” blinders on. Gotta twist everything to prove your narrative is right!
Doesn’t matter, Rey still doesn’t struggle enough in the first 2 movies, where the protagonist should struggle the most. It’s like putting whipped cream on a pile of dung, and trying to convince me that it’s actually an ice cream sundae.
And also, can you please stop responding to me with this condescending bullshit? I’m trying to have an intelligent conversation and you just keep belittling me.
I’m not trying to be condescending, but if you’re going to post something ridiculous my response will be likewise ridiculous. I don’t know what’s intelligent about warping the content of the films and then calling this made up version “dung.”
I’m not making anything up, I’ve posted evidence to back up my arguments. I don’t think I’m warping the content of the films, but since no one is going to change their mind about this, I’m going to leave this thread before things get nasty.
I mean, I hate to defend TROS but the very first thing we see Rey doing in the movie is failing. Because of her failure, she decides to run the training course again, the implication being that she’s done this many times and so naturally knows it by heart at this point. They literally went out of their way to appease the fan complaints.
But who cares about what’s actually in the movies when you can put “Mary Sue” blinders on. Gotta twist everything to prove your narrative is right!
Doesn’t matter, Rey still doesn’t struggle enough in the first 2 movies, where the protagonist should struggle the most. It’s like putting whipped cream on a pile of dung, and trying to convince me that it’s actually an ice cream sundae.
And also, can you please stop responding to me with this condescending bullshit? I’m trying to have an intelligent conversation and you just keep belittling me.
A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.
Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.
Luke’s struggles are due to lack of faith and lack of concentration. Rey had heard of the Heroes of the OT. Rey knows what a Jedi can do from those stories. Then comes face to face with it in a way Luke never did (he didn’t see Vader do anything in canon until TESB during their duel and I don’t think he saw Ben do anything either). Ben gave him one lesson on the falcon and then he is able to make the shot that takes out the death star and then later is able to levitate his lightsaber before his second lesson with Yoda. Luke had doubts. Rey didn’t. Rey had belonging and abandonment issues, Luke never seemed to. He wanted to know more about his father, but he knew who he was and that was fine. Rey has plenty of struggles and failures in the films. More than Luke actually. No one powerful in the Force seems to have any problem using it once they see it used and Rey saw it used by Kylo many time. In fact, you could say that he activated the Dyad by trying to read her mind and that he basically taught her everything he knew and she just had to concentrate to draw on it. Snoke implied that he linked them, but I don’t think he realized what he was dealing with. They stayed linked after he died. So Mary Sue? Nope. She has too many flaws and failures to be one. Sure she picks up the force quickly, but that is not the only part of her character and she rarely does it right the first time.
Just because a character has flaws and failures doesn’t mean they’re not a Mary Sue. The original Mary Sue died at the end. Mary Sues usually have two qualities:
-An insane level of power and skill, without much struggle.
-The ability to make everyone they meet instantly like them.Rey has both qualities. She flies and repairs the Falcon better than Han, despite having never flown it before. As soon as Finn meets her, he loves her more than anything in the galaxy. She uses a Jedi mind-trick successfully after seeing Kylo use it once. As soon as Kylo meets her, he wants her to become his empress. She beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. As soon as Han meets her, he wants her to become his copilot. When she taps into the Force for the first time, she nearly destroys Luke’s temple. She lifts a huge pile of rocks on Crait, despite having never used the Force to lift objects before. She heals people using the Force, an ability which no Jedi has used before, and she doesn’t seem any weaker because of it. Zorri agrees to help the Resistance purely because she likes Rey. The list goes on, but you get the idea. In my opinion, Rey fits the definition of a Mary Sue almost exactly.
Then so does Luke.
People like you keep saying, “If Rey is a Mary Sue, than so is Luke!” But Luke doesn’t have any of the qualities that make Rey a Mary Sue. He struggled constantly to gain the level of power he showed in ROTJ, and the people around him didn’t like him instantly - Leia thought he was a complete idiot, Han thought he was a dumb kid who didn’t understand anything, and Yoda thought he was too hopeful and excited to become a Jedi. In order for Luke to gain the surrogate family he had in ROTJ, he needed character development - a term which the creators of the sequel trilogy don’t seem to understand.
Really? In one less he is able to deflect the remote’s shots.
Like Han said, “Good against remotes is easy. Good against the living, that’s something else.” Training with a remote doesn’t prepare you for fighting a living enemy.
Without any lessons (only Ben’s ghost voice saying to use the force) he is able to target the shaft and destroy the death star.
That wasn’t Luke making that shot. He closed his eyes and trusted his instincts, allowing the Force to take over. All the incredible things Rey does, she does by herself.
Without any lessons he can lift his light saber.
Lifting a lightsaber is easy. Anyone can do it, even Han. But Luke never had to use his lightsaber for complicated things until his duel with Vader, three years after he first used it. Rey, on the other hand, beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. There’s a difference between lifting a lightsaber, and using it to defeat a Force user who was trained by both Luke Skywalker and Emperor Palpatine.
And it isn’t like Rey does everything successfully the first time. She has to try several times to get James Bond Stormtrooper to do her bidding.She tries once. The second time, she succeeds. Compare that to Luke, who only knew how to use a mind trick in ROTJ, when he was already a skilled Jedi master.
She does fail and when you actually and honestly compare how she and Luke do things, they are very similar.
Which shouldn’t be taken as a compliment. Copying a much better protagonist does not make your protagonist good.
She just doesn’t have his doubts that made him fail with the X-wing.
Which also shouldn’t be taken as a compliment. Characters who have no doubts tend not to be very interesting.
She has family issues he always seemed okay with.
That’s just a plot point, it’s not a weakness. Rey doesn’t seem to be shaken by either one of her family reveals, unlike Luke who was shocked to his core by Vader’s revelation.
We never get to see Anakin train so we have no idea how he did.
He trained for ten years straight, so we can assume he did well.
And in case you missed it, Rey had a bit of a failure at the start of TROS where she wasn’t deflecting the remotes shots like she should.
What are you talking about? Rey deflected all those lasers completely accurately.
LOL… When she first encountered the remote she does (wearing a helmet with a blast shield). Then she cuts down the red strip and after that she can’t deflect a single laser. It hits her like 5 times. She finally smashes it against a tree with a stick. Watch the movie again.
How about you watch the movie again? Rey deflected the lasers completely accurately until she got distracted by Kylo talking to Vader’s helmet and started chopping down trees like a maniac for no reason.
She has a tough third film where Luke is pretty composed the whole way through and only has issues when Vader threatens Leia.
Luke isn’t composed, he’s arrogant. That’s the main lesson Luke learns in ROTJ, true Jedi aren’t smug about their abilities. Compare that to Rey, who has no doubts about her abilities the entire trilogy, and she never learns a lesson from it.
Have you seen TROS. This sounds like you haven’t.
I have seen TROS. Rey has no doubts about her abilities, you said so yourself. And she never learns a lesson from it during TROS. She shows up to Palpatine’s lair, is all like “I’m gonna kill you lol”, and then kills Palpatine with double saber power. Unlike ROTJ which teaches that violence isn’t always the solution, TROS has Rey kill Palpatine with double violence, and it’s portrayed as a heroic moment.
The evidence doesn’t back up Rey having it easier than Luke or being more powerful than Luke. They just have different journeys.
She doesn’t have a different journey, she has a very similar journey, which is a problem in itself. But while Luke made mistakes and learned lessons on his path to becoming a Jedi, Rey started out powerful and stayed powerful, with no opportunities for mistakes or character growth.
No opportunities for mistakes? Well, please watch TROS again and then tell me that.
She never makes mistakes, at least not voluntarily. She’s always morally right about everything, often at the expense of everyone else.
And also, I did watch TROS again. It’s still bad.
As someone who grew up with the prequels and can still watch and enjoy them any day of the week, I get why so many young people praise and defend them. If they were your introduction to the franchise, it makes sense that you’d have a nostalgic attachment. I do too, but I also can’t deny the many, many aspects of the films that simply do not work. They all pretty much suck to varying degrees. I wish I could say they didn’t, but they do. Like I said, I still enjoy them, but I can acknowledge that they’re simply not very good movies. And that’s okay.
I feel the same way. The prequels were my introduction to the franchise, and I feel like a lot of the good parts of those movies are being overlooked, but I also agree that they have a lot of bad parts.
I’ve never understood the argument over which trilogy is better. The prequels and sequels are so different that it seems like comparing an apple to an airplane.
The OT: A timeless classic, beloved by multiple generations. There are a few plot holes, but they are outweighed by the amazing emotional moments.
The prequels: Controversial when they came out, hated a few years later, loved by the people who grew up with them. They expand the universe in many ways, but the dialogue leaves much to be desired.
The sequels: Very controversial, the subject of much fiery debate. They are very professionally made and entertaining to watch, but they fail to expand the universe, they undo the accomplishments of the OT heroes only to redo them with Rey, and they have many plot holes and leaps of logic.
The prequels and sequels are good and bad in their own ways, but in my opinion the prequels are better than the sequels.
I think you should keep V2 up, as a “purist” cut of Rekindled. If someone wants to remove the radio scene from V3, they can do it themselves.
I love ROTJ and Luke’s story in it, but his “temptation to the dark side” is one of it’s most poorly handled elements. Maybe on paper his actions at Jabba’s palace seem like he might be slipping to the dark side, but they ultimately play the sequence as completely heroic. His “temptation” is never explicitly a struggle for him until the throne room, and by then he’s been the hero for so long the idea that he might turn has strains credibility.
I disagree. I feel like Luke’s first appearance at Jabba’s palace shows very explicitly that Luke is being tempted by the dark side, and it helps set up his struggle in the throne room. The sail barge scene was a heroic moment, but Luke’s earlier actions are explicitly dark.
I mean I’m happy for you that it plays that way, but to me it never did. The fact that none of this is mentioned at all, especially in Luke’s discussions with Yoda and Ben really drive home how poorly it was handled for me. It’s essentially ambiguous, which doesn’t accomplish anything.
TROS is a much worse film, but at least they show moments where the darkness explicitly gets the better of Rey. It’s one of the few ways that film works much better than ROTJ.
When do they show those moments? Whenever Rey in TROS does something dark, it’s because she lost control. She didn’t mean to blow up that transport, and she didn’t mean to stab Kylo in the chest. When Luke in ROTJ does something dark, he does it on purpose. He force choked those guards on purpose, and he almost killed his father on purpose. You need to show that the protagonist is consciously turning to the darkness before you show them rejecting the darkness, and I feel like that’s something ROTJ does very well.
I mean, first of all that’s just your interpretation that Luke is consciously turning to the darkness. For me, I see a movie where throughout the runtime Luke says he won’t kill Vader because he sees the good in him, and that he will not turn to the dark side. It’s only while facing Vader that he loses his cool and control. He’s not consciously turning to the dark, in fact he’s doing the exact opposite. The whole point of the scene is that he’s not trying to kill his father on purpose.
Rey fares better because we see multiple moments where she loses her cool and slips towards that dark power, which is a more believable path - like Luke, we already saw Rey reject the offer to join the dark side. We know that they both know consciously that the dark side is the bad side. But TROS and ROTJ are supposed to be about both protagonists slipping towards the dark despite their best intentions. In that regard, ROTJ does not fare as nearly as well.
I will give you this, Rey would have been better served if they had given her a black or near black outfit. But that hardly makes or breaks this.
I understand your point, and now that you explained it I kind of agree with it. I still prefer Luke’s arc in ROTJ, but maybe that’s just my nostalgia talking.
I love ROTJ and Luke’s story in it, but his “temptation to the dark side” is one of it’s most poorly handled elements. Maybe on paper his actions at Jabba’s palace seem like he might be slipping to the dark side, but they ultimately play the sequence as completely heroic. His “temptation” is never explicitly a struggle for him until the throne room, and by then he’s been the hero for so long the idea that he might turn has strains credibility.
I disagree. I feel like Luke’s first appearance at Jabba’s palace shows very explicitly that Luke is being tempted by the dark side, and it helps set up his struggle in the throne room. The sail barge scene was a heroic moment, but Luke’s earlier actions are explicitly dark.
TROS is a much worse film, but at least they show moments where the darkness explicitly gets the better of Rey. It’s one of the few ways that film works much better than ROTJ.
When do they show those moments? Whenever Rey in TROS does something dark, it’s because she lost control. She didn’t mean to blow up that transport, and she didn’t mean to stab Kylo in the chest. When Luke in ROTJ does something dark, he does it on purpose. He force choked those guards on purpose, and he almost killed his father on purpose. You need to show that the protagonist is consciously turning to the darkness before you show them rejecting the darkness, and I feel like that’s something ROTJ does very well.
I agree that this latest version is the best version yet. Like the other changes in your edit, it feels like an actual scene from the movie instead of a fan edit. I personally don’t need “at last” to be more obvious. If this edit was the movie that was released in theaters, that line would be one of the details that would be speculated about for months on end. I prefer it subtle.
She has family issues he always seemed okay with.
That’s just a plot point, it’s not a weakness. Rey doesn’t seem to be shaken by either one of her family reveals, unlike Luke who was shocked to his core by Vader’s revelation.
That’s funny. “Just a plot point.” It’s literally the primary motivator of just about everything she does.
I wasn’t denying that, I was just saying that Rey’s longing for her parents isn’t really a weakness, especially when she doesn’t seem shaken up about it at all.
“Not a weakness”? Kylo Ren literally calls it her “greatest weakness.”
Which was a really dumb line. The dialogue in these movies keeps trying to convince us that Rey is torn between the dark side and the light, but Rey never actually does any dark side stuff besides making an evil face a few times. Compare that to Luke in ROTJ, who wears Sith robes and literally Force chokes people in his first minute of screen time. I’d say that Luke’s temptation to the dark side was handled much better than Rey’s temptation.
It’s important to remember that Rey is part of the prophecy.
Darkness rises, and light to meet it.
This implies a nobody had to rise to counter Kylo, which is frankly ridiculous but if we are working the lenses of TLJ, Rey is both a “nobody” and a “chosen one”.
That wasn’t a prophecy, it was just something Snoke said. He also lied about creating the Force dyad, so we can assume he isn’t the most reliable narrator. But you are right that it’s ridiculous.
A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.
Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.
Luke’s struggles are due to lack of faith and lack of concentration. Rey had heard of the Heroes of the OT. Rey knows what a Jedi can do from those stories. Then comes face to face with it in a way Luke never did (he didn’t see Vader do anything in canon until TESB during their duel and I don’t think he saw Ben do anything either). Ben gave him one lesson on the falcon and then he is able to make the shot that takes out the death star and then later is able to levitate his lightsaber before his second lesson with Yoda. Luke had doubts. Rey didn’t. Rey had belonging and abandonment issues, Luke never seemed to. He wanted to know more about his father, but he knew who he was and that was fine. Rey has plenty of struggles and failures in the films. More than Luke actually. No one powerful in the Force seems to have any problem using it once they see it used and Rey saw it used by Kylo many time. In fact, you could say that he activated the Dyad by trying to read her mind and that he basically taught her everything he knew and she just had to concentrate to draw on it. Snoke implied that he linked them, but I don’t think he realized what he was dealing with. They stayed linked after he died. So Mary Sue? Nope. She has too many flaws and failures to be one. Sure she picks up the force quickly, but that is not the only part of her character and she rarely does it right the first time.
Just because a character has flaws and failures doesn’t mean they’re not a Mary Sue. The original Mary Sue died at the end. Mary Sues usually have two qualities:
-An insane level of power and skill, without much struggle.
-The ability to make everyone they meet instantly like them.Rey has both qualities. She flies and repairs the Falcon better than Han, despite having never flown it before. As soon as Finn meets her, he loves her more than anything in the galaxy. She uses a Jedi mind-trick successfully after seeing Kylo use it once. As soon as Kylo meets her, he wants her to become his empress. She beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. As soon as Han meets her, he wants her to become his copilot. When she taps into the Force for the first time, she nearly destroys Luke’s temple. She lifts a huge pile of rocks on Crait, despite having never used the Force to lift objects before. She heals people using the Force, an ability which no Jedi has used before, and she doesn’t seem any weaker because of it. Zorri agrees to help the Resistance purely because she likes Rey. The list goes on, but you get the idea. In my opinion, Rey fits the definition of a Mary Sue almost exactly.
Then so does Luke.
People like you keep saying, “If Rey is a Mary Sue, than so is Luke!” But Luke doesn’t have any of the qualities that make Rey a Mary Sue. He struggled constantly to gain the level of power he showed in ROTJ, and the people around him didn’t like him instantly - Leia thought he was a complete idiot, Han thought he was a dumb kid who didn’t understand anything, and Yoda thought he was too hopeful and excited to become a Jedi. In order for Luke to gain the surrogate family he had in ROTJ, he needed character development - a term which the creators of the sequel trilogy don’t seem to understand.
Really? In one less he is able to deflect the remote’s shots.
Like Han said, “Good against remotes is easy. Good against the living, that’s something else.” Training with a remote doesn’t prepare you for fighting a living enemy.
Without any lessons (only Ben’s ghost voice saying to use the force) he is able to target the shaft and destroy the death star.
That wasn’t Luke making that shot. He closed his eyes and trusted his instincts, allowing the Force to take over. All the incredible things Rey does, she does by herself.
Without any lessons he can lift his light saber.
Lifting a lightsaber is easy. Anyone can do it, even Han. But Luke never had to use his lightsaber for complicated things until his duel with Vader, three years after he first used it. Rey, on the other hand, beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. There’s a difference between lifting a lightsaber, and using it to defeat a Force user who was trained by both Luke Skywalker and Emperor Palpatine.
And it isn’t like Rey does everything successfully the first time. She has to try several times to get James Bond Stormtrooper to do her bidding.
She tries once. The second time, she succeeds. Compare that to Luke, who only knew how to use a mind trick in ROTJ, when he was already a skilled Jedi master.
She does fail and when you actually and honestly compare how she and Luke do things, they are very similar.
Which shouldn’t be taken as a compliment. Copying a much better protagonist does not make your protagonist good.
She just doesn’t have his doubts that made him fail with the X-wing.
Which also shouldn’t be taken as a compliment. Characters who have no doubts tend not to be very interesting.
She has family issues he always seemed okay with.
That’s just a plot point, it’s not a weakness. Rey doesn’t seem to be shaken by either one of her family reveals, unlike Luke who was shocked to his core by Vader’s revelation.
We never get to see Anakin train so we have no idea how he did.
He trained for ten years straight, so we can assume he did well.
And in case you missed it, Rey had a bit of a failure at the start of TROS where she wasn’t deflecting the remotes shots like she should.
What are you talking about? Rey deflected all those lasers completely accurately.
She has a tough third film where Luke is pretty composed the whole way through and only has issues when Vader threatens Leia.
Luke isn’t composed, he’s arrogant. That’s the main lesson Luke learns in ROTJ, true Jedi aren’t smug about their abilities. Compare that to Rey, who has no doubts about her abilities the entire trilogy, and she never learns a lesson from it.
The evidence doesn’t back up Rey having it easier than Luke or being more powerful than Luke. They just have different journeys.
She doesn’t have a different journey, she has a very similar journey, which is a problem in itself. But while Luke made mistakes and learned lessons on his path to becoming a Jedi, Rey started out powerful and stayed powerful, with no opportunities for mistakes or character growth.
In my opinion the “Mary Sue” stuff is absolute bullshit that has now seeped into the movies itself. The urge to pacify crying fans is the reason we’re now left with the fan wanking trash that is Rey Palpatine.
Though I suppose the only casualty is the integrity of Rey’s character, and who cares about that when you finally have an explanation for how “OP” she is! The saga is saved!
I don’t think you should blame it on the fans. None of the fans who hated Rey Nobody like Rey Palpatine. They see it for what it is: a misguided attempt to please everyone that resulted in the sequel trilogy having no clear direction.
They’re the cause, whether they like how it ended up or not. JJ and Terrio bought into the argument that Rey’s character progression should treat her like a video game character, not a human being.
No one has ever said that Rey should be a video game character, that’s a complete straw-man. We just want Rey to have some sort of struggle before she begins using the Force like a Jedi master. Is that too much to ask?
They ruined her arc for the sake of fans, and so every fan who complained Rey was “OP” deserved the shitty explanation they got.
They may have thought it was for the sake of fans, but no one who hated Rey Nobody liked Rey Palpatine. It’s like asking someone to make a sandwich, them making a sandwich that looks like a sloppy, slimy mess, and them blaming you for wanting a sandwich.
In my opinion the “Mary Sue” stuff is absolute bullshit that has now seeped into the movies itself. The urge to pacify crying fans is the reason we’re now left with the fan wanking trash that is Rey Palpatine.
Though I suppose the only casualty is the integrity of Rey’s character, and who cares about that when you finally have an explanation for how “OP” she is! The saga is saved!
I don’t think you should blame it on the fans. None of the fans who hated Rey Nobody like Rey Palpatine. They see it for what it is: a misguided attempt to please everyone that resulted in the sequel trilogy having no clear direction.
A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.
Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.
Luke’s struggles are due to lack of faith and lack of concentration. Rey had heard of the Heroes of the OT. Rey knows what a Jedi can do from those stories. Then comes face to face with it in a way Luke never did (he didn’t see Vader do anything in canon until TESB during their duel and I don’t think he saw Ben do anything either). Ben gave him one lesson on the falcon and then he is able to make the shot that takes out the death star and then later is able to levitate his lightsaber before his second lesson with Yoda. Luke had doubts. Rey didn’t. Rey had belonging and abandonment issues, Luke never seemed to. He wanted to know more about his father, but he knew who he was and that was fine. Rey has plenty of struggles and failures in the films. More than Luke actually. No one powerful in the Force seems to have any problem using it once they see it used and Rey saw it used by Kylo many time. In fact, you could say that he activated the Dyad by trying to read her mind and that he basically taught her everything he knew and she just had to concentrate to draw on it. Snoke implied that he linked them, but I don’t think he realized what he was dealing with. They stayed linked after he died. So Mary Sue? Nope. She has too many flaws and failures to be one. Sure she picks up the force quickly, but that is not the only part of her character and she rarely does it right the first time.
Just because a character has flaws and failures doesn’t mean they’re not a Mary Sue. The original Mary Sue died at the end. Mary Sues usually have two qualities:
-An insane level of power and skill, without much struggle.
-The ability to make everyone they meet instantly like them.Rey has both qualities. She flies and repairs the Falcon better than Han, despite having never flown it before. As soon as Finn meets her, he loves her more than anything in the galaxy. She uses a Jedi mind-trick successfully after seeing Kylo use it once. As soon as Kylo meets her, he wants her to become his empress. She beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. As soon as Han meets her, he wants her to become his copilot. When she taps into the Force for the first time, she nearly destroys Luke’s temple. She lifts a huge pile of rocks on Crait, despite having never used the Force to lift objects before. She heals people using the Force, an ability which no Jedi has used before, and she doesn’t seem any weaker because of it. Zorri agrees to help the Resistance purely because she likes Rey. The list goes on, but you get the idea. In my opinion, Rey fits the definition of a Mary Sue almost exactly.
Then so does Luke.
People like you keep saying, “If Rey is a Mary Sue, than so is Luke!” But Luke doesn’t have any of the qualities that make Rey a Mary Sue. He struggled constantly to gain the level of power he showed in ROTJ, and the people around him didn’t like him instantly - Leia thought he was a complete idiot, Han thought he was a dumb kid who didn’t understand anything, and Yoda thought he was too hopeful and excited to become a Jedi. In order for Luke to gain the surrogate family he had in ROTJ, he needed character development - a term which the creators of the sequel trilogy don’t seem to understand.
A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.
Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.
Luke’s struggles are due to lack of faith and lack of concentration. Rey had heard of the Heroes of the OT. Rey knows what a Jedi can do from those stories. Then comes face to face with it in a way Luke never did (he didn’t see Vader do anything in canon until TESB during their duel and I don’t think he saw Ben do anything either). Ben gave him one lesson on the falcon and then he is able to make the shot that takes out the death star and then later is able to levitate his lightsaber before his second lesson with Yoda. Luke had doubts. Rey didn’t. Rey had belonging and abandonment issues, Luke never seemed to. He wanted to know more about his father, but he knew who he was and that was fine. Rey has plenty of struggles and failures in the films. More than Luke actually. No one powerful in the Force seems to have any problem using it once they see it used and Rey saw it used by Kylo many time. In fact, you could say that he activated the Dyad by trying to read her mind and that he basically taught her everything he knew and she just had to concentrate to draw on it. Snoke implied that he linked them, but I don’t think he realized what he was dealing with. They stayed linked after he died. So Mary Sue? Nope. She has too many flaws and failures to be one. Sure she picks up the force quickly, but that is not the only part of her character and she rarely does it right the first time.
Just because a character has flaws and failures doesn’t mean they’re not a Mary Sue. The original Mary Sue died at the end. Mary Sues usually have two qualities:
-An insane level of power and skill, without much struggle.
-The ability to make everyone they meet instantly like them.
Rey has both qualities. She flies and repairs the Falcon better than Han, despite having never flown it before. As soon as Finn meets her, he loves her more than anything in the galaxy. She uses a Jedi mind-trick successfully after seeing Kylo use it once. As soon as Kylo meets her, he wants her to become his empress. She beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. As soon as Han meets her, he wants her to become his copilot. When she taps into the Force for the first time, she nearly destroys Luke’s temple. She lifts a huge pile of rocks on Crait, despite having never used the Force to lift objects before. She heals people using the Force, an ability which no Jedi has used before, and she doesn’t seem any weaker because of it. Zorri agrees to help the Resistance purely because she likes Rey. The list goes on, but you get the idea. In my opinion, Rey fits the definition of a Mary Sue almost exactly.
He moves too much, it would be impossible. If you absolutely need Palpatine in TLJ, you can put him at the end, although I personally don’t want an MCU style cliffhanger in a Star Wars movie.