StarkillerAG

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

While it may not work for some, a great many seem to love this film, including myself. I found his argument that because we didn’t see landings that indicated a problem to be silly. And his analysis that Rey redid her journey in one film is off. Star Wars has always had a larger structure than a single film, but each film has always followed the 3 act structure and this one did as well Rey goes on her final journey - her final test if you will.

Maybe you loved it, and that’s fine, but the majority of audiences didn’t, which seems to indicate that there’s something wrong with the pacing and structure of the movie. That’s what the video is about, it isn’t about not having any shots of the heroes landing on a planet, although that is part of the pacing problem.

Sequel movies have a hard job in coming back to revisit the same characters and places with a new story. They were never going to please everyone. I think they set up to please the people who wanted to be entertained and I think they succeeded.

That’s my main problem with the movie. JJ didn’t want to make a meaningful movie, he didn’t even want to make a good movie, he just wanted a big dumb blockbuster that lots of people would enjoy without really thinking about it.

The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it.

All Star Wars movies are blockbusters. And many think they have good stories, but I can find reviews clear back to 1977 calling them mindless drivel for the masses.

The old-fashioned reviewers who thought the OT was drivel were a minority. Those movies were universally praised by almost everyone else. There’s a reason why Star Wars and Empire consistently rank high on film critics’ top 100 movies lists.

The box office numbers are still disappointing. Keep in mind that most people were expecting this movie to make almost as much as TFA, and the ones who successfully predicted the current box office numbers were labeled as pessimists.

I was predicting around the same as TFA. And it is close to that, though still not quite there.

What alternate universe are you living in? 1 billion dollars isn’t anywhere near TFA’s insane 2 billion dollar gross. TROS has no chance of making as much as TFA or even TLJ.

Sorry, I mistyped. I meant TLJ. And it is getting pretty close, at least as I see it.

Sorry for misunderstanding you. I personally think the box office will get stuck at 1 billion, since weekly numbers are declining.

The numbers indicate that the critic score is way off on RT. The audience has not been that divided and a great many love it and have called it the best Star Wars since the originals.

Where are you getting this from? The audience reception is almost as divided as TLJ, and even the people who like it know it isn’t even close to being as good as the OT.

The people you talk to and communiate with maybe. The ones I see mostly loved it. I guess it all depends on what circles you are in. And like I said, the people I know personally who have seen it have all (save one) loved it. Lots of die hard Star Wars fans among them.

From other people outside OT. Literally for every negative impression of it I’ve read here, I’ve read another elsewhere that praises it in very high terms. And of the people I personally know who have seen it, the worst review was “I’ll have to think about it”. So I’m seeing the numbers to make that 86% on RT accurate. And the box office numbers agree that it is a popular movie. The best performing movie of a trilogy is always the first. Three for three.

But people (well, other Star Wars fans specifically) are praising this as an amazing movie. I think it is an amazing movie. So I know where they are coming from. I don’t think this trilogy has risen to quite the quality of the OT, but it has gotten closer than Lucas did with the PT. People whose writing skills I trust and who blasted Abrams for Star Trek Into Darkness have admitted this one was well done. So while a great many around here and probably other similar online groups may have found something wrong with it, the numbers do not indicate a majority hated it or thought it was bad. Even the critics, as harsh as they were, leaned a tiny bit in favor of it (the RT critic score never dropped below 50%).

Once again, are you living in an alternate universe? Where is this universal praise you’re talking about? I’ve seen reactions to this movie from all across the internet, and almost all of them are mixed to negative. I haven’t seen a single person (except you) who thinks this movie was anywhere near as good as the OT. Even the people who like it admit it could have been so much better. If you love the movie that’s fine, I’m glad you were satisfied by it. But don’t pretend that everyone else loves it just to get validation for your personal feelings.

I’m not pretending everyone loved it. I’m saying that I see that 86% audience rating on RT as accurate. It matches the personal feedback I’ve gotten.

I wasn’t getting anything from personal feedback. It was all stuff from people across the internet. I haven’t seen very much positivity about the movie. Even the people who like it admit there were lots of missed opportunities. I personally don’t see how the audience score reflects actual audience reactions, which leads me to suspect tampering.

I personally don’t think Filoni is being “deified”. Clone Wars and Rebels brought in some of the most interesting aspects of current Star Wars canon, like Mortis and the World Between Worlds. And it’s not like he’s a bad writer, either. His depiction of the Clone Wars was really morally interesting, with rebellious clones and unsympathetic Jedi. You’re free to not like him, but I personally love his vision for the Star Wars universe.

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

While it may not work for some, a great many seem to love this film, including myself. I found his argument that because we didn’t see landings that indicated a problem to be silly. And his analysis that Rey redid her journey in one film is off. Star Wars has always had a larger structure than a single film, but each film has always followed the 3 act structure and this one did as well Rey goes on her final journey - her final test if you will.

Maybe you loved it, and that’s fine, but the majority of audiences didn’t, which seems to indicate that there’s something wrong with the pacing and structure of the movie. That’s what the video is about, it isn’t about not having any shots of the heroes landing on a planet, although that is part of the pacing problem.

Sequel movies have a hard job in coming back to revisit the same characters and places with a new story. They were never going to please everyone. I think they set up to please the people who wanted to be entertained and I think they succeeded.

That’s my main problem with the movie. JJ didn’t want to make a meaningful movie, he didn’t even want to make a good movie, he just wanted a big dumb blockbuster that lots of people would enjoy without really thinking about it.

The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it.

All Star Wars movies are blockbusters. And many think they have good stories, but I can find reviews clear back to 1977 calling them mindless drivel for the masses.

The old-fashioned reviewers who thought the OT was drivel were a minority. Those movies were universally praised by almost everyone else. There’s a reason why Star Wars and Empire consistently rank high on film critics’ top 100 movies lists.

The box office numbers are still disappointing. Keep in mind that most people were expecting this movie to make almost as much as TFA, and the ones who successfully predicted the current box office numbers were labeled as pessimists.

I was predicting around the same as TFA. And it is close to that, though still not quite there.

What alternate universe are you living in? 1 billion dollars isn’t anywhere near TFA’s insane 2 billion dollar gross. TROS has no chance of making as much as TFA or even TLJ.

The numbers indicate that the critic score is way off on RT. The audience has not been that divided and a great many love it and have called it the best Star Wars since the originals.

Where are you getting this from? The audience reception is almost as divided as TLJ, and even the people who like it know it isn’t even close to being as good as the OT.

From other people outside OT. Literally for every negative impression of it I’ve read here, I’ve read another elsewhere that praises it in very high terms. And of the people I personally know who have seen it, the worst review was “I’ll have to think about it”. So I’m seeing the numbers to make that 86% on RT accurate. And the box office numbers agree that it is a popular movie. The best performing movie of a trilogy is always the first. Three for three.

But people (well, other Star Wars fans specifically) are praising this as an amazing movie. I think it is an amazing movie. So I know where they are coming from. I don’t think this trilogy has risen to quite the quality of the OT, but it has gotten closer than Lucas did with the PT. People whose writing skills I trust and who blasted Abrams for Star Trek Into Darkness have admitted this one was well done. So while a great many around here and probably other similar online groups may have found something wrong with it, the numbers do not indicate a majority hated it or thought it was bad. Even the critics, as harsh as they were, leaned a tiny bit in favor of it (the RT critic score never dropped below 50%).

Once again, are you living in an alternate universe? Where is this universal praise you’re talking about? I’ve seen reactions to this movie from all across the internet, and almost all of them are mixed to negative. I haven’t seen a single person (except you) who thinks this movie was anywhere near as good as the OT. Even the people who like it admit it could have been so much better. If you love the movie that’s fine, I’m glad you were satisfied by it. But don’t pretend that everyone else loves it just to get validation for your personal feelings.

I understand your point of view, but I personally don’t agree with it. It seems like you had unreasonably high expectations for the show, and when it wasn’t as great as you thought it would be you were disappointed. I was pleasantly surprised by the show, because I was expecting it to just be a dumb action show about a Boba Fett ripoff. So I was really pleased with what we ended up getting.

idir_hh said:

I appreciate the subtle hints sprinkled throughout this edit and I respect the conservative approach, for now though I think making the current hints a tad bit more noticable specifically the blue smoke which I think might go under the radar for some people.

That’s kind of the point though. It’s part of the subtlety, you know something’s up but you’re not sure what. Snoke dying in a big dramatic Force explosion would take too much attention away from the intended focus of the scene, Kylo and Rey’s brief team-up.

OutboundFlight said:

The way I see it, the Mandalorian is a mature story. Not insanely original, but neither is Empire. The characters in the Mandalorian all have reasonable motivations… Cara is good but still cares about surviving, the Guild Leader (blanking on name) is only interested in the money. The bandits in Chapter Six act that way because yes, there are people who act like that and they exist in the Star Wars universe. We see them in the Cantina in ANH. If you were expecting them to be sympathetic, that falls down on one’s personal expectations.

But moving forward, I’d say the Mandalorian is more morally complicated than Empire. Because Empire isn’t as nuanced as you claim. The heroes start good and end good. The villains are bad and end bad, with Vader the sole exception. But you can’t pull off a twist like that multiple times, and still for the purposes of the movie Vader was bad from start to finish. It’s not like he suddenly reveals he an undercover agent which makes us question the conflict.

The Mandalorian actually starts bad and has a redemption story right there. Is it wildly new? No. But it’s far more mature a story than Empire’s “good guys run from bad guys, and learn that fighting isn’t always a good idea”.

I get the feeling that you don’t really like Empire. I don’t think Empire is as dumb and simplistic as you claim, but I agree that Mando is a very nuanced show.

Yeah, that’s what I meant. The fact that the movie actually made less than TLJ shows that there’s something wrong with the movie for a significant portion of the audience, and word of mouth is negative enough that many people didn’t want to see it.

And also, Rekindled isn’t supposed to be a major overhaul that radically restructures the trilogy. Poppa first created this edit as a conservative alternative to all the radical TLJ edits out there, and it seems like the same philosophy would apply to how this edit connects to the rest of the trilogy.

I don’t see how the show “talks down” to anyone. It doesn’t include violence for the sake of violence, all the adult stuff in the show has been portrayed very tastefully.

And I don’t get what you’re saying about the lack of nuanced characters. Almost all the characters in the show have depth. Din Djarin tries to follow the traditions of his people, but he faces constant conflict between people’s expectations of him and his own moral values. Cara Dune is tired of constant war with Imperial warlords, but when people are in danger she does whatever she can to keep them safe. Greef Karga goes from friend to enemy to unstable ally in the course of 4 episodes. Werner Herzog’s character wants the Empire to return, not because he just wants to be evil, but because he genuinely believes that the galaxy was better before the Empire fell.

And also, the comparisons to Empire seem unfair. Empire is one of the greatest movies of all time, you can’t judge this show just because it isn’t as great as Empire.

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it.

Keep in mind that most people were expecting this movie to make almost as much as TFA

Anyone predicting that would have been rightfully in the minority.

It seems like they would be in the minority, but most people were predicting that this movie would make an insane amount of money at the box office. I remember one guy (who doesn’t post here anymore) said something along the lines of “This movie will make 1.8 billion dollars, that is a fact. The haters won’t put a dent in this one.” If you look in the box office predictions thread, you’ll find many more examples. The people predicting 1 billion were labeled as pessimists, but it turns out the pessimists were right.

That isn’t intended to be obviously Palpatine. The voice is so heavily distorted that it could be anyone. Poppa’s goal with these teases is to have a subtle buildup to the radio scene, which adds an air of mystery to the movie.

Yeah, I wasn’t going to mention that audience score, but it is really suspicious that no new reviews were allowed after opening weekend. It’s like Disney knew that the audience score would decline after people had time to think about the movie, and they convinced RT to just freeze the score permanently.

Peter Pan said:

FreezingTNT2 said:

pleasehello said:

FreezingTNT2 said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

I know DJ was wrong too, but the movie explicitly tries to make a compromise between DJ’s beliefs and the beliefs of the Resistance, resulting in the whole “save the things you love” scene, which was one of the worst scenes of the movie in my opinion. Throughout the movie, it felt like Rian was trying to make it seem like the heroes and villains should find a compromise, which doesn’t seem like a good lesson for a franchise all about the light always winning.

I’m not sure I understand. “Saving what we love” isn’t about finding a compromise. It’s about caring more for helping people than killing others. It’s the very ethos of the franchise. Selflessness, and all that. Vader takes down the Emperor not because of hatred, but because of love for his son. The Jedi defend what they love, the Sith attack using hatred to fuel them.

I get people not liking the line because it’s on the nose, but the message is very important. I don’t know what it has to do with DJ’s line.

That line creates an inconsistency in Rose’s character: earlier she was fighting what she hated (animal cruelty) by freeing the Fathiers at Canto Bight, and yet she stops Finn’s sacrifice and tells him that Saving What We Love™ is more important than Fighting What We Hate™, resulting in the First Order’s giant laser cannon blowing up the metal door.

Uh, wasn’t she explicitly saving what she loved by freeing the fathiers?

She still prevents Finn from sacrificing himself and indirectly allows the First Order to destroy the door. Yeah, I know that Finn’s speeder probably wouldn’t have completely destroyed the cannon, but it could’ve at least damaged some of it.

Just a little theorizing over here, please don’t take me too serious.

What if Finn would have had destroyed the canon? The FO would have brought another canon. The Rebellion was trapped inside the cave and did not knew about the natural exit until the critters disappeared, which were escaping the giant laser that blew up the main gate (fun how Finn is the one pointing this out).

It would still take at least a day to clean up the remains of the destroyed cannon, transport another cannon through hyperspace, and use those weird transport things to land it on Crait. While that was happening, the Resistance would have had plenty of time to find an escape route.

On another note, see how saving Finn, one single rebel, reinforces the theme of hope. Neither a dozen nor 400 will bring down the FO, but if all the oppressed people -like broom boy- rise as one there’s hope.

The Resistance was small, but it was the only real rebel group fighting against the First Order. Without them, the galaxy would have been under the First Order’s control far longer. And also, we know from TROS that Luke’s sacrifice had no effect on the oppressed people, so the war would have ended much sooner if Rose had allowed Finn to destroy that cannon.

I understand Rian’s intentions with the “saving what you love” scene, but I feel like the scene itself was way too contrived and ridiculous.

I understand why you want Palpatine to be a threat from the beginning of the trilogy, but I don’t think it’s possible, since Palpatine only appears in TROS. It would seem weird to only show the main villain of the trilogy at the beginning of the 3rd movie. And besides, that’s more of the realm of radical edits, and Rekindled isn’t intended to be very radical.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

While it may not work for some, a great many seem to love this film, including myself. I found his argument that because we didn’t see landings that indicated a problem to be silly. And his analysis that Rey redid her journey in one film is off. Star Wars has always had a larger structure than a single film, but each film has always followed the 3 act structure and this one did as well Rey goes on her final journey - her final test if you will.

Maybe you loved it, and that’s fine, but the majority of audiences didn’t, which seems to indicate that there’s something wrong with the pacing and structure of the movie. That’s what the video is about, it isn’t about not having any shots of the heroes landing on a planet, although that is part of the pacing problem.

Sequel movies have a hard job in coming back to revisit the same characters and places with a new story. They were never going to please everyone. I think they set up to please the people who wanted to be entertained and I think they succeeded.

That’s my main problem with the movie. JJ didn’t want to make a meaningful movie, he didn’t even want to make a good movie, he just wanted a big dumb blockbuster that lots of people would enjoy without really thinking about it.

The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it.

The box office numbers are still disappointing. Keep in mind that most people were expecting this movie to make almost as much as TFA, and the ones who successfully predicted the current box office numbers were labeled as pessimists.

The numbers indicate that the critic score is way off on RT. The audience has not been that divided and a great many love it and have called it the best Star Wars since the originals.

Where are you getting this from? The audience reception is almost as divided as TLJ, and even the people who like it know it isn’t even close to being as good as the OT.

Interesting ideas, but way too ambitious. Unless Adywan’s ROTJ edit proves me otherwise, there’s no way newly filmed elements can be seamlessly integrated with movie footage.

I don’t think that’s necessary, plus you don’t want Palpatine’s essence to be too obvious. The Palpatine teases are supposed to be subtle, to preserve the reveal that he was behind everything in TROS.

Yeah, I personally like that it feels like a live-action version of a Dave Filoni animated Star Wars show, which seems intentional since Filoni is one of the showrunners. But I understand why someone might not like that.

Those behind-the-scenes photos are really cool. The way they used those LED screens to seamlessly integrate real actors and props with CGI backgrounds was groundbreaking. It couldn’t have been done 3 years ago.

NFBisms, I understand why you don’t really like the show, but I didn’t feel like the changes in tone were at all jarring. I’m glad the show wasn’t overly kid-friendly or overly adult-friendly, Star Wars has always been a franchise that has something for everyone. There are some light-hearted moments for kids, some dark moments for adults, and Baby Yoda, which is for all ages. It’s far more tonally consistent than some other entries in the franchise (glances at TPM and TLJ).

I know DJ was wrong too, but the movie explicitly tries to make a compromise between DJ’s beliefs and the beliefs of the Resistance, resulting in the whole “save the things you love” scene, which was one of the worst scenes of the movie in my opinion. Throughout the movie, it felt like Rian was trying to make it seem like the heroes and villains should find a compromise, which doesn’t seem like a good lesson for a franchise all about the light always winning.

Yeah, obviously the villains of the movie shouldn’t be taken at their word. I think most people by now know that “let the past die” isn’t the message of TLJ. But I do have somewhat of a problem with the ultimate message of the movie, which is basically “both sides are wrong, the real answer is always in the middle.” It doesn’t seem like a good lesson, especially for a franchise all about how the light always wins in the end. It also leads to some really confusing themes, like sacrificing yourself being completely good and justified when Paige and Holdo do it, but when Finn does it suddenly it’s wrong and you need to “save the things you love,” despite that being the whole reason why Finn tried to sacrifice himself in the first place. I understand what Rian was trying to accomplish with this movie, I just don’t think he conveyed his message very well.

I guess I understand your point of view. Wanderer doesn’t seem toxic to me, he just seems annoyed that certain people (who luckily aren’t on here) claim that TLJ is objectively good, and if you don’t like it then you must be a toxic manbaby. I do agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion though.

Yeah, that’s what I meant. Star Wars is intended for all ages, and The Mandalorian really did a good job of allowing people of all ages to enjoy the show.

What’s so wrong about saying you don’t like the sequels? Wanderer seems like a very respectful person, he doesn’t say anything toxic, and he doesn’t say anyone is wrong for having a different opinion than him. It seems like you just think he’s toxic because he doesn’t like the sequels, and because he shared a video that you didn’t even bother to watch, you just assumed it was a toxic rant when it really wasn’t. And also, if you don’t think that some TLJ defenders accuse TLJ haters of racism and sexism, you clearly haven’t been on Twitter.

I understand your point of view, but I don’t feel like The Mandalorian is too edgy, or too safe. Like the later seasons of Clone Wars, it’s a nice compromise between child-friendly and adult-friendly, safe and risky. I feel like that’s the route Star Wars should go in the future.