StarkillerAG

I’d also like a link.

NeverarGreat said:

I guess I’ll be fanediting this movie in the ‘Script Writing and Rewriting’ section then.

I’m with you too. It’s just impossible to work with what we have. I’ve already started work on a modified version of Trevorrow’s “Duel of the Fates” draft, and I’ll be sharing that here soon.

That’s unfortunate. Hopefully people will still be able to make edits of this movie, but no deleted scenes is gonna be a huge setback.

FreezingTNT2 said:

Isn’t this supposed to be Poppasketti’s personal version of The Last Jedi?

Surprised to hear the guy who constantly nags people to make the changes he wants say something like this.

Shopping Maul said:

NFBisms said:

Shopping Maul said:

Wanderer_ said:

Shopping Maul said:

Well why the hell did Vader deserve redemption?
He didn’t, we tolerated it because Vader was well written and it was easier for us to feel that his love for his son was enough to make him turn back.

At least Kylo had layers, some obvious conflict.

Mm, this is an odd one. Vader had many more layers than Kylo. Vader was always in conflict, he was a slave to the dark side. Kylo chose to be the monster he became and I honestly don’t think the movies gave us reasons for him to have let darkness grown inside of him.

But that’s not true according to the OT. Vader was a straight up bad guy in ANH - choking dudes to death, torturing princesses, killing Obi Wan (quite happily I add - “this will be a day long remembered…”), and shooting down X-Wings. In TESB he relentlessly pursues the rebels, kills his subordinates for human error, tortures Han and Leia to get Luke’s attention, and finally gives Luke a ‘join me or die’ ultimatum (“don’t make me destroy you”).

Only in ROTJ is it suggested that Vader had ‘good in him’, and that was purely because Luke (see Lucas) suddenly decided it was so.

I agree Kylo had no backstory whatsoever, but the conflict within him is/was evident from the get-go. Vader had given himself over to darkness and was pretty comfortable with it in the OT. Kylo was not so adept at evil. In fact the way way Adam Driver played Kylo was how I wish Anakin had been played in the prequels, a truly conflicted soul. That “I want to be free of this pain” moment in TFA had more raw emotion in it than all three prequels put together.

By the way I’m not against Vader’s redemption at all, in fact I thought it was a great idea. I just hate Luke’s POV. I do not understand why Luke was suddenly all gushy about Dad in ROTJ, nor do I understand why this took precedence over everything else that was going on. I’d have preferred a darker movie - one where Luke would be disillusioned with the whole Jedi thing (having been lied to by everyone concerned) and Vader’s turnaround would be a nice surprise while Luke was busy doing everything in his power to defeat Palpatine. But that’s just me. I cannot fathom why saving a war-criminal’s soul would make anyone a legend.

I mean, Luke’s primary influence from the moment he joins Ben in ANH - is his father’s legacy. He wants to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like his father. From that, he essentially follows the path his dad took, right down to when he brushes with the dark side in ESB. He ignores Yoda and Ben’s warnings by rushing in to confront Vader, and save his friends.

That’s when he sees an outcome of following that quick and easy path - Darth Vader - and is faced with making different choices than his father. By ROTJ, Luke has empathy for Vader because he finds that by following his father, he is Vader. He’s more or less been where he’s been. Everything he believed about his father had to be true at one point, but then he took a wrong turn somewhere, which Luke after ESB understands now more than anyone.

It definitely has potential to be naivete, but Luke ends up being right. The idealism that it is, is what makes him a legend. The fact that you, and probably many others in the galaxy, would become disillusioned where Luke didn’t is the point. That doesn’t really say anything about how you personally would have preferred the movie to go, but that’s the theme. It makes sense and isn’t “sudden.” ROTJ just contextualizes the previous set-up. Not that it couldn’t have gone in a different direction - that who knows, I might have preferred myself - but pretty much all the heavy lifting for it is done in the prior two films.

I don’t disagree - I mean even though the OT was written on the fly, the character of Vader is fleshed out as you say ie we learn about the noble father and then discover Vader is that guy (with all that implies).

But the OT wasn’t about saving Dad, it was about Luke Skywalker being the last Jedi hope of the galaxy. And Luke did not save the galaxy. All he did was save Vader. Killing Palpatine was a lucky by-product of an entirely different quest - to save Vader. It’d be like me halting a nuclear holocaust because I just so happened to plug in my hairdryer and blow all the fuses in the bad guys’ bunker.

It feels like you’re missing the point here. Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to save the galaxy by destroying the Sith, but Luke couldn’t bring himself to kill his father. In the end, Luke’s hopefulness pays off. He puts down his weapon and sacrifices himself to Palpatine, resulting in Vader’s redemption and Palpatine’s death. It’s a subversion of the “chosen one” trope. Luke saves the galaxy not by destroying the Sith, but by saving his father.

I think a huge problem with ROTJ is that it dumbs down the Dark Side to a ludicrous degree. It turns the slow-burn corruption of negative emotions and lust for power into a simple “lose your temper and you’ll turn irreversibly evil” thing. Which means Luke just has to stand there while thousands of his comrades are being incinerated, or that just getting angry will somehow lead to Luke joining the Emperor. By extension this implies that Jedi are more trouble than they’re worth.

I have to agree with you on this one. The “strike me down” speech is dumb, but it’s not like TROS is any better since it features the same speech almost word for word.

I still don’t see why Luke would become a legend for giving a profoundly evil man a bedside conversion while everyone else was fighting a war.

To be fair, that’s more of a sequel trilogy thing. Nothing in ROTJ implies that Luke became a legend for redeeming his father, so that argument is invalid when used against ROTJ.

Her temptation by Palpatine is real - she is literally put in the impossible position of having to accept the Dark Side as a way to save her friends, and Kylo helps her. Together they save the galaxy.

That may have been JJ’s intention, but it wasn’t conveyed well at all. Palpatine tells Rey that he wants Rey to kill him so he can possess her. Then he tells Rey that killing him will allow her to save her friends, which blatantly contradicts the thing he said right before. If Rey is possessed by Palpatine, there’s no way she’ll want to save her friends. It’s such a one-sided bargain that any sane person would have refused, and so Rey seems like an idiot for actually going along with Palpatine’s plan until Ben shows up.

Because of that, Luke’s throne room scene is much better in my opinion. Luke isn’t there to kill Palpatine, and he doesn’t fall for any of Palpatine’s “strike me down” speechifying. He actually seems smart, and his intelligence pays off in the end.

RogueLeader said:

If JediPaxis’ leaked plot descriptions are anything to go off of, I think when Kylo/FO and the Resistance find out Palpatine is alive did change somewhat.

I don’t think Kylo didn’t exactly know what he would find in the Unknown Regions originally. Apparently the info Poe and Finn get from the spy is that Kylo is searching for something in the Unknown Regions, not that Palpatine is alive and has a fleet of warships laying in wait. Leia has a contact that might have a lead regarding the Unknown Regions, and she sends them to Pasana.

It is possible this was not accurate, but I can totally see them deciding to make it clear from the beginning that Palpatine is back in order to make the goals of the characters clearer, and to raise the stakes for the Resistance early on.

I don’t subscribe to the conspiracy theories, but I can totally see the function of the Oracle becoming redundant or contradictory if Act I was restructured a bit. I think Pablo even mentioned on his twitter that Act I received the most changes during reshoots.

Okay, that does make sense. I assumed that the “reshoots” in JediPaxis’ plot summary were just the leakers receiving more accurate info, but it would make sense if Palpatine wasn’t revealed until the end of the first act. Which just makes me want the deleted scenes more, so a fan edit can partially revert the movie to an earlier version, like Hal did in his edit of ROTS.

DominicCobb said:

I’m not suggesting any sort of scandal, and obviously JJ cut whatever is bullshit. But obviously quite a bit was indeed changed in post production, and quite a bit of reshoots we’re done. That’s just a fact.

Okay, my mistake. I thought you were one of those people. Although I’m still pretty certain that the deleted scenes will be released. It doesn’t matter if they contradict the movie: the prequels and TLJ had many deleted scenes that were replaced in reshoots, and they still got released. If the TFA Blu-ray is anything to go by, the deleted scenes probably won’t be substantial, but there will be some stuff (like the Eye of Webbish Bog scene) for fan editors to work with. I just hope there aren’t any time codes.

And don’t forget that many TV shows and advertisements nowadays are filmed with black bars. The desire to make everything “cinematic” has made the general public used to black bars, so why not show movies in their original aspect ratio?

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

rocknroll41 said:

Movie is at $1.066 billion now, it seems. When can we expect the total to plateau? Are we there yet, or does it make sense to wait a few more weeks just in case there’s one last spike?

It’s going to keep nudging up for several more months. Nothing can be final until then.

Several more months? The Blu-ray comes out in late March. I know the box office will keep changing for the next month, but I doubt many people are going to go see a movie that was released two months ago. I’m 90% sure the current box office numbers are very close to the final results.

If you look at other movies, they have box office numbers for months after the home video release. Some movies are still playing in second run theaters and people do go to them. Plus there are foreign markets. So until it is out of all theaters, you can’t really finalize the numbers.

Second run theaters typically don’t make hundreds of millions of dollars though. So I’d say that the numbers are basically final once the movie gets released on Blu-ray. No one wants to watch a movie in an empty movie theater, when they could just buy it on Blu-ray.

DominicCobb said:

I’m kinda worried that they might not include the sequence at all if what they filmed contradicts the final edit, and they’re changing how it’s described in the novel to fit the film.

First of all, we don’t even know if what they filmed contradicts the final edit. The leaks described the Oracle as a swamp creature that gives Vader’s wayfinder to Kylo, which is basically how the novelization portrays it.

Second of all, we don’t even know if they changed how it’s described in the novel to fit the final film. Like I said, the leaks mostly line up with the scene from the novelization, and if they were going for complete accuracy to the final edit they would just remove it. We know that there were some edits, but almost every book goes through edits.

I wouldn’t be too worried about a big reshoots scandal, or a lack of deleted scenes on the Blu-ray. Everything we know about the movie indicates that there were no big changes in post-production, besides the restructuring of the first act. The #ReleaseTheJJCut people are just making stuff up to justify their anti-Disney witch hunt.

Pickle2503 said:

Okay, but if you want the actual file from adywan then I have it, is all I’m saying lol.

Okay, then can you PM me?

yotsuya said:

rocknroll41 said:

Movie is at $1.066 billion now, it seems. When can we expect the total to plateau? Are we there yet, or does it make sense to wait a few more weeks just in case there’s one last spike?

It’s going to keep nudging up for several more months. Nothing can be final until then.

Several more months? The Blu-ray comes out in late March. I know the box office will keep changing for the next month, but I doubt many people are going to go see a movie that was released two months ago. I’m 90% sure the current box office numbers are very close to the final results.

Pickle2503 said:

That’s not in full rez. Dm me.

Open the Streamable link, it’s in HD there. Reddit’s video player screws it up for some reason. And I didn’t post it, someone else did.

For the people who are looking for Adywan’s recreation of the IMAX scene, someone on Reddit posted it here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/6bqyzj/force_awakens_imax_falcon_chase_sequence_the/

yotsuya said:

Broom Kid said:

yotsuya said:

I hate to keep harping on this point, but I have studied a bit of Hollywood history and nearly every movie goes through rewrites.

But I never said “movies don’t go through rewrites.” I said “comparing the process on The Rise of Skywalker to the process on the original Star Wars is a bad comparison.” And then I tried to support that claim by pointing out just how differently not only the process was, but the end results of those processes were. That claim doesn’t rely on the idea that movies don’t get rewritten, or that things don’t change between drafts. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m saying HOW it happened with THOSE TWO MOVIES is a bad comparison to make.

If you think anything any Star Wars movie has done script wise is unusual, you haven’t studied enough of the process.

This is also not true, sorry.

While you can say no two movies are exactly alike, you can also say that every movie goes through pretty much the same process. The variations are slight and it doesn’t matter if it takes months or years to go through the process. Some movies go through many different scripts by different writers and some movies go through many different scripts by one writer. And you can’t say which has had more changes because time and number of writers are not much of a factor.

Yeah, it’s complicated. But I am convinced that Trevorrow’s script would have been great if he had time to rewrite it. I was already starting to see the seeds of a great movie in that 2nd draft summary, and a little more refinement would have made it amazing. Too bad Trevorrow was fired.

OutboundFlight said:

I think the ideas of TLJ are the best in the trilogy, but the execution is awful. Rewatching it can be cringe inducing. Much prefer TFA and TROS in practice (even if not in concept).

That’s basically how I feel about this latest trilogy. TFA and TROS are bad ideas with good execution, TLJ is good ideas with bad execution. Both good ideas and good execution define a good movie for me, so I can’t really say any of the sequel movies are good, let alone better than the OT.

I understand why some people wanted Kylo to be redeemed in the first act, but in my opinion it wouldn’t really work. Redemption in Star Wars has always been more of a spiritual affair. Watching Kylo act all chummy with the new trio would be really jarring for me, considering all the horrible things Kylo did. In my opinion the only endings that would work for Kylo are either becoming an exiled renegade fighting for justice, or dying in a heroic sacrifice. Trevorrow choosing to go with the latter is completely fine in my book.

rocknroll41 said:

Do we know whether or not the Rey/Poe romance was still in the second Trevorrow draft that MSW talked about?

Unfortunately, yes. According to MSW:

“Rey makes Poe leave with Chewie to go help the Resistance (Finn and Rose). She kisses him to make him do this.”

Other than that, I think the second draft is a big improvement over the first. Kylo is humanized, the plot is streamlined, some moments that came out of nowhere originally have more setup, Carrie Fisher’s death is dealt with in a satisfying way, and we get more of redeemed Kylo before he dies. The only problem I have with the second draft is the renaming of Coruscant to “Remnicore,” but that’s not a dealbreaker for me. I’m confident that if Trevorrow had time to refine his script before filming, his version of Episode IX would have been amazing.

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

Nope.

Could you pleas explain why you like it? I’m genuinely interested.

It sounds like it came straight from a Old Hollywood picture, like a 1940s noir film. Which is a spirit that is in keeping with the series.

Personally I don’t get the hate. Calling Canto Bight “lousy” doesn’t seem terribly heavy handed to me.

I guess I understand your point of view, but I personally felt the line was too cheesy, although that seems to be the reason why you like it. It reminds me of some of the worst lines from the prequels. It’s all subjective though.

DominicCobb said:

I also love how the film is “telling the audience what to think” and yet some people still don’t understand what the movie is saying.

That’s because some people are willfully obtuse and refuse to accept a message that’s right in their face. It’s the type of people who think the message of the movie is “let the past die,” when that line was spoken by the literal villain of the movie. Some people just want to hate everything about this movie, for some bizarre reason.

DominicCobb said:

Nope.

Could you please explain why you like it? I’m genuinely interested.

No matter what your opinions on the Canto Bight scene are, can we all agree that “I want to put my fist through this lousy beautiful town” is a terrible line? It reminds me of something Padme would say in the prequels, and that’s why I personally felt the Canto Bight scene was very ham-fisted in its messaging. It’s a symptom of a wider problem throughout the movie: telling the audience what to think, when you should let them interpret the message themselves.

Yeah, what was he expecting? Did he really think Disney would go with his drafts after the intense fan backlash to the prequels? Disney wanted to distance themselves from the prequels as fast as possible, and the first step to doing that was rejecting Lucas’s drafts. Of course, now that the majority of the Star Wars fanbase has grown to appreciate the prequels, that decision has backfired horribly, but Disney had no way of seeing it back then.

I agree with everything you just said. Anakin’s redemption isn’t supposed to supplement his character, it’s supposed to supplement Luke’s character. He had hope in what seemed to be impossible, and it paid off for him in the end. While I enjoy the prequels as a supplement to the OT, there’s no denying that the OT is Luke’s story.

Shopping Maul said:

StarkillerAG said:

Shopping Maul said:

Well why the hell did Vader deserve redemption? At least Kylo had layers, some obvious conflict. The great thing about the TROS version is that Kylo’s redemption was a by-product of what was going on. Rey was on mission (both in the DS wreckage and on Exegol) and Kylo’s turn around came about as a consequence of their interactions (and Leia’s death) - not just a matter of Rey throwing everything aside to win his heart. Luke’s entire focus on DS II was saving Vader when he should have been fighting the Sith with every last breath. The idea that Luke became some kind of legend for this is absurd to me. So I absolutely prefer Kylo’s redemption over the cockamamie “Vader was really just a nice dad and you should always support your dad” thing of ROTJ.

I’ve never seen someone who hates Vader’s redemption before, so this take seems really bizarre to me. If you don’t think Vader had any conflict in the OT, did you even watch those movies? Throughout the trilogy, Vader just seems tired of being the Emperor’s lapdog. When he finds out his son is alive, that becomes his only focus. He was already in a position to be redeemed by Luke, he just needed the push of seeing the Emperor torturing his son. So I don’t think it’s some kind of “support your abusive dad” message, and I feel like the idea that Luke should be religiously focused on fighting the Sith goes against the principles of the saga. The old Jedi were wrong because they were focused on fighting the Sith, and they couldn’t see the manipulation occurring right under their noses. Luke managed to see through the darkness and redeem his father, ending the Sith once and for all.

There was nothing pre-ROTJ to indicate Vader was a conflicted soul. This is primarily because he wasn’t - Lucas hadn’t written him to be the fallen Anakin Skywalker until very late in the process. So ignoring his actions from within the Empire let’s consider Vader from Luke’s perspective - Vader’s dogged pursuit of the DS plans led to the grisly death of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, he tortured Leia on the DS, he killed Obi Wan right before Luke’s eyes, he shot down Luke’s comrades during the DS battle - one of whom was Luke’s boyhood friend, he tortured Luke’s friends on Bespin just to get a rise out of Luke, he beat the crap out of Luke and offered joint custody of a new fascist Empire, and finally Luke was so horrified that he attempted suicide rather than accept Vader as his dad.

I fail to see how from this we get to Luke’s “there’s still good in him” stance of ROTJ. And don’t get me started on the ethics of remaining calm while countless innocents are being annihilated by a super-laser…

I feel like you’re missing the point. Yes, Vader did bad things, but he never did them with glee. He projected an imposing figure onto himself, but there was still a light side to him. Luke was able to see his inner light when he saw that Vader couldn’t bring himself to kill him on Bespin. When Vader destroyed the Emperor and ended the Sith, it confirmed Luke’s hope. Vader wasn’t always intended to be the fallen Anakin, but he was always intended to be a fallen Jedi.