StarkillerAG

Shopping Maul said:

StarkillerAG said:

Shopping Maul said:

Well why the hell did Vader deserve redemption? At least Kylo had layers, some obvious conflict. The great thing about the TROS version is that Kylo’s redemption was a by-product of what was going on. Rey was on mission (both in the DS wreckage and on Exegol) and Kylo’s turn around came about as a consequence of their interactions (and Leia’s death) - not just a matter of Rey throwing everything aside to win his heart. Luke’s entire focus on DS II was saving Vader when he should have been fighting the Sith with every last breath. The idea that Luke became some kind of legend for this is absurd to me. So I absolutely prefer Kylo’s redemption over the cockamamie “Vader was really just a nice dad and you should always support your dad” thing of ROTJ.

I’ve never seen someone who hates Vader’s redemption before, so this take seems really bizarre to me. If you don’t think Vader had any conflict in the OT, did you even watch those movies? Throughout the trilogy, Vader just seems tired of being the Emperor’s lapdog. When he finds out his son is alive, that becomes his only focus. He was already in a position to be redeemed by Luke, he just needed the push of seeing the Emperor torturing his son. So I don’t think it’s some kind of “support your abusive dad” message, and I feel like the idea that Luke should be religiously focused on fighting the Sith goes against the principles of the saga. The old Jedi were wrong because they were focused on fighting the Sith, and they couldn’t see the manipulation occurring right under their noses. Luke managed to see through the darkness and redeem his father, ending the Sith once and for all.

There was nothing pre-ROTJ to indicate Vader was a conflicted soul. This is primarily because he wasn’t - Lucas hadn’t written him to be the fallen Anakin Skywalker until very late in the process. So ignoring his actions from within the Empire let’s consider Vader from Luke’s perspective - Vader’s dogged pursuit of the DS plans led to the grisly death of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, he tortured Leia on the DS, he killed Obi Wan right before Luke’s eyes, he shot down Luke’s comrades during the DS battle - one of whom was Luke’s boyhood friend, he tortured Luke’s friends on Bespin just to get a rise out of Luke, he beat the crap out of Luke and offered joint custody of a new fascist Empire, and finally Luke was so horrified that he attempted suicide rather than accept Vader as his dad.

I fail to see how from this we get to Luke’s “there’s still good in him” stance of ROTJ. And don’t get me started on the ethics of remaining calm while countless innocents are being annihilated by a super-laser…

I feel like you’re missing the point. Yes, Vader did bad things, but he never did them with glee. He projected an imposing figure onto himself, but there was still a light side to him. Luke was able to see his inner light when he saw that Vader couldn’t bring himself to kill him on Bespin. When Vader destroyed the Emperor and ended the Sith, it confirmed Luke’s hope. Vader wasn’t always intended to be the fallen Anakin, but he was always intended to be a fallen Jedi.

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

I think the key to why some of us think TROS is a good final film is how epic the battle is. The series is titled Star Wars. The hallmark of the series has been the space battles. In TROS we get one actually in the atmosphere of Exogol. I really haven’t head anything about this that has any descent space battle. I think the Stromtrooper rebellion is a cool idea, but one that needs more time to play out. That would have been a cool thing to have Finn and Rose address in TLJ instead of Fathiers and gamblers. But to bring it out just in the final film seems a little rushed to me. > yotsuya said:

I think the key to why some of us think TROS is a good final film is how epic the battle is. The series is titled Star Wars. The hallmark of the series has been the space battles. In TROS we get one actually in the atmosphere of Exogol. I really haven’t head anything about this that has any descent space battle. I think the Stromtrooper rebellion is a cool idea, but one that needs more time to play out. That would have been a cool thing to have Finn and Rose address in TLJ instead of Fathiers and gamblers. But to bring it out just in the final film seems a little rushed to me. For me, the epic nature of Palaptine, a fleet of planet killers, and so many other things about TROS just were so much better than what I see here. I just don’t see the epic nature and how that adds to the saga lore.

I don’t know why you think the battle of Coruscant wouldn’t have been “epic.” Based on the script’s description, it sounds like the biggest battle in Star Wars yet. A massive citizen uprising occurs on the ground level, while an Eclipse class dreadnought struggles to survive against the entire First Order fleet. The battle of Exegol in TROS even copied a moment directly from the battle of Coruscant, Lando’s “on your left” moment. So I think people who watch Star Wars for the cool spaceship action would be mostly satisfied by Trevorrow’s version.

I didn’t say epic enough. I said it wasn’t a space battle.

Read your comment again. You said yourself, “For me, the epic nature of Palaptine, a fleet of planet killers, and so many other things about TROS just were so much better than what I see here. I just don’t see the epic nature and how that adds to the saga lore.” So you were complaining about the final battle not being epic enough, which isn’t a valid complaint in my opinion.

And I don’t get what you’re saying with there not being a space battle. I assume you haven’t read the script, since there’s a whole space side to the battle, where Leia has to defend her flagship against an armada of Star Destroyers. You might want to actually read the script before making assumptions about it. TROS was the movie that didn’t have a space battle, every battle in the movie was within a planet’s atmosphere.

Yeah, looking at that concept art, I don’t understand how anyone could think the climactic battle in Trevorrow’s script wouldn’t have been epic enough. It certainly looks better than the confusing, blurry battle we got in JJ’s version.

FreezingTNT2 said:

Why not edit the GOUT and add the prequel music yourself?

Says the guy who constantly nags people with nonsensical “suggestions” instead of making his own edits.

yotsuya said:

I think the key to why some of us think TROS is a good final film is how epic the battle is. The series is titled Star Wars. The hallmark of the series has been the space battles. In TROS we get one actually in the atmosphere of Exogol. I really haven’t head anything about this that has any descent space battle. I think the Stromtrooper rebellion is a cool idea, but one that needs more time to play out. That would have been a cool thing to have Finn and Rose address in TLJ instead of Fathiers and gamblers. But to bring it out just in the final film seems a little rushed to me. For me, the epic nature of Palaptine, a fleet of planet killers, and so many other things about TROS just were so much better than what I see here. I just don’t see the epic nature and how that adds to the saga lore.

I don’t know why you think the battle of Coruscant wouldn’t have been “epic.” Based on the script’s description, it sounds like the biggest battle in Star Wars yet. A massive citizen uprising occurs on the ground level, while an Eclipse class dreadnought struggles to survive against the entire First Order fleet. The battle of Exegol in TROS even copied a moment directly from the battle of Coruscant, Lando’s “on your left” moment. So I think people who watch Star Wars for the cool spaceship action would be mostly satisfied by Trevorrow’s version.

DuracellEnergizer said:

StarkillerAG said:

Shopping Maul said:

Well why the hell did Vader deserve redemption? At least Kylo had layers, some obvious conflict. The great thing about the TROS version is that Kylo’s redemption was a by-product of what was going on. Rey was on mission (both in the DS wreckage and on Exegol) and Kylo’s turn around came about as a consequence of their interactions (and Leia’s death) - not just a matter of Rey throwing everything aside to win his heart. Luke’s entire focus on DS II was saving Vader when he should have been fighting the Sith with every last breath. The idea that Luke became some kind of legend for this is absurd to me. So I absolutely prefer Kylo’s redemption over the cockamamie “Vader was really just a nice dad and you should always support your dad” thing of ROTJ.

I’ve never seen someone who hates Vader’s redemption before, so this take seems really bizarre to me.

S/he’s not the only one.

I was going to mention you, but I wasn’t entirely sure.

Shopping Maul said:

Well why the hell did Vader deserve redemption? At least Kylo had layers, some obvious conflict. The great thing about the TROS version is that Kylo’s redemption was a by-product of what was going on. Rey was on mission (both in the DS wreckage and on Exegol) and Kylo’s turn around came about as a consequence of their interactions (and Leia’s death) - not just a matter of Rey throwing everything aside to win his heart. Luke’s entire focus on DS II was saving Vader when he should have been fighting the Sith with every last breath. The idea that Luke became some kind of legend for this is absurd to me. So I absolutely prefer Kylo’s redemption over the cockamamie “Vader was really just a nice dad and you should always support your dad” thing of ROTJ.

I’ve never seen someone who hates Vader’s redemption before, so this take seems really bizarre to me. If you don’t think Vader had any conflict in the OT, did you even watch those movies? Throughout the trilogy, Vader just seems tired of being the Emperor’s lapdog. When he finds out his son is alive, that becomes his only focus. He was already in a position to be redeemed by Luke, he just needed the push of seeing the Emperor torturing his son. So I don’t think it’s some kind of “support your abusive dad” message, and I feel like the idea that Luke should be religiously focused on fighting the Sith goes against the principles of the saga. The old Jedi were wrong because they were focused on fighting the Sith, and they couldn’t see the manipulation occurring right under their noses. Luke managed to see through the darkness and redeem his father, ending the Sith once and for all.

I 100% agree with Broom Kid’s excellent post above. The Last Jedi is at its core a movie about improvisation. It’s about preparing for the future and making the best choice at the right moment, and that type of message is very hard to nail thematically. I feel like that’s the reason many people, including me, were put off by the movie. It wants to convey a complicated message in the run time of an average blockbuster, and it results in some plot points and character arcs feeling unearned.

DominicCobb said:

Glad we’re back to talking about Rose saving Finn again, it’s been awhile.

Johnson’s Law: “As an online discussion about The Last Jedi grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Rose saving Finn approaches 1.”

Some of my thoughts on the script, now that I’ve read the whole thing:

-The opening scene is great. It really helps reintroduce our characters and show how much they’ve changed.

-I love how the First Order is portrayed in this movie. You really get a sense of their oppressive control of the galaxy.

-Rose is great in this movie. She felt too boring and preachy in TLJ, but she’s really fun here.

-I love how this movie adds value to Canto Bight and the broom boy scene, showing people across the galaxy rising up against the First Order.

-Kylo’s arc is decent. I didn’t like some of the things Trevorrow did to his character, but it’s certainly better than his arc in TROS.

-I’m surprised at how well Rey and Poe’s relationship was handled. I thought it would be forced and shoehorned in, but it’s actually built up throughout the movie.

-I love Luke’s role in this movie. He appears throughout, giving guidance to Rey, Kylo, and Leia. It makes me wish we got more of him in TROS.

-The climax is amazing. The Coruscant citizen uprising is a great conclusion to Finn’s character arc, and Rey and Kylo’s duel on Mortis wraps up both characters’ arcs much better than TROS did. I really love the visual of the empty well, and I love the idea of a blindfolded Rey using the force to guide her actions.

-The ending is a great conclusion to the saga. Finn telling the Canto Bight kids the story of the movies, and Rey returning to teach a new generation the ways of the force, wraps up the saga in a really satisfying way.

There are some parts I didn’t like, but most of it is really good. I wish we got this movie instead of TROS.

NeverarGreat said:

So in the first instance heroic sacrifice is bad (wasting life and equipment on bad odds), even when it is later revealed that this sacrifice saved everyone.
In the second, heroic sacrifice is good, even when it wastes life and equipment on even worse odds.
In the third, heroic sacrifice is again bad, and I don’t even need to know the odds because they are surely better than rolling a thousand natural 20’s on a total enemy kill.

The theme of TLJ is that noble sacrifice is bad when it isn’t worth the cost. Great. It’s just too bad that the text of the film contradicts and muddles that message at every turn.

Thank you, you hit the nail on the head. I think most people would be fine with TLJ’s message regarding sacrifice if the movie played it straight the whole way through. But since every moment of sacrifice in the movie muddles and confuses the message, it seems like Rian wasn’t sure what he wanted to say.

snooker said:

About the Dreadnought destruction:

In the moment it isn’t heroic. There’s a shot of Poe looking at Paige’s bomber falling into a fiery inferno and he does a sad face.

And then while everyone’s celebrating on the cruiser, Leia looks at the death toll and sighs.

Stuff like that is only apparent in retrospect. In the moment, it seems like Paige’s sacrifice was tragic, but necessary to destroy the Dreadnought. Because of that, when Leia slaps Poe in the face for it, it feels jarring.

Finn’s self sacrifice wasn’t needed because it wouldn’t have changed anything.

But Finn had no way of knowing Luke was about to show up, and neither did the audience. When Finn tries to slam his skimmer into the cannon, it seems like the only way the Resistance can win. So when Rose stops his suicide run and tells him to “save the things you love,” which is what he was trying to do in the first place, it feels jarring. Unless Rose has the ability to predict the future, there’s no way what she did was heroic.

I feel like we’re missing the point here. In my opinion, the biggest problem with TLJ’s themes is how some actions are portrayed as heroic at first, then unheroic later. Poe’s dreadnought attack and the bomber run are portrayed as a brave sacrifice in the moment, but just a few scenes later Leia slaps him in the face for it. Holdo is portrayed as an incompetent idiot for most of the second act, until it’s revealed that she actually had an amazing plan all along, and all that work getting the audience invested in Poe, Finn, and Rose was useless. Finn’s suicide attack is portrayed as heroic, with dramatic choir music and slo-mo, up until Rose slams into him and tells him that sacrificing himself to save the Resistance is actually a bad idea. Rian’s storytelling style is thematic whiplash and slapping the audience in the face, and I feel like that doesn’t work when you’re supposed to get the audience invested.

Mocata said:

But conversely…

• Luke learns the error of his ways and becomes a true hero
• It’s not whether you buy from a black market but what you choose to do
• Poe learns the error of his ways and becomes a true leader
• Rey is tempted by the darkside and rejects it and becomes a true hero
• Finn tries an act of stupidity and a hero saves him
• Holdo is a gruff unlikeable character trope, the kind who has their heart in the right place all along

Personally the stakes are irrelevant, small or big, the overall movie is what matters. Which is … a mixed bag.

Yeah, it’s all a matter of perspective how you interpret the messages of TLJ. I feel like that’s the reason why people have such opposing views on this movie. It’s like the cave on Dagobah, it only shows what you take with you.

yotsuya said:

idir_hh said:

Full Colin Trevarrow script:
https://mega.nz/#!MegFDK7Y!dK6dhZsRXTmIgZ39l9719Macz1TQCZQtlhSCz0EdmOI

Thanks. I’ve added it to my script collection and I’ll give it a read when I have a chance. Again, I think having Kylo so conflicted for three films and it not ending in his redemption is a mistake.

It does end with his redemption though. At the end of the movie, Kylo learns how to drain the life force out of people, and uses it to drain Rey’s life force. Just when he’s about to kill Rey, Leia talks to him through the force, convincing him to give some of his life force back to Rey, sacrificing himself to save her. It’s a last minute redemption, but it’s still a redemption.

I would highly recommend checking the script out when you have a chance. You may disagree with some of the choices Trevorrow made, but the quality of writing is very high.

I have been every leak…

YOU HAVE EVER READ…

About Trevorrow’s script! Vader breathing

I’m pretty sure this is the real script. It’s too well-written to be fake.

I’ve just started reading it, and so far it seems really good. The First Order is portrayed as an actual menacing force, the main characters are written very well, and the themes of TLJ are expanded upon in a really satisfying way. If this was the movie that was released in theaters, I think I would mostly enjoy the sequel trilogy.

Since this thread is still open to discussion, can I throw out some ideas that have been rolling around in my head for a while?

-If the extended opening is released on Blu-Ray, I’d really like for you to insert it in the movie. It sounds like it fleshes out Kylo’s emotional state and the First Order power struggle more, rather than the context-free montage of Kylo killing people we got in the theatrical version.

-Some of Leia’s scenes deserve a slight trim. They clearly wrote the dialogue around the limited Leia footage they had, and it’s really awkward. The scene of Leia telling Snap to be more optimistic definitely needs to be cut. He wasn’t even being pessimistic, so the conversation makes no sense.

-This might seem arbitrary, but I’d really like to replace the audio in the beginning of the Fury Road chase scene with the audio from this promotional clip. The theatrical version replaces the music with tracked in music from Rey’s training montage, and the older music fits better in my opinion.

-If anything can be done to make Leia’s death less confusing, that would be welcome. She senses something in the Force, goes off to another room, says Kylo’s name, and then dies. Maybe you could intercut the Han vision scene with Leia’s death, to imply Leia created that vision to redeem Kylo?

I’m just grasping at straws here. I don’t have any concrete plan for editing this movie, and it seems like you don’t either, but there are some serious problems that need to be fixed in order for me to accept TROS as part of the saga.

snooker said:

What are you talking about TNT???

My reaction to everything he posts.

But you wouldn’t know that from watching the movie itself. Fan edits typically ignore supplemental material, so I don’t think it’s necessary to provide an alternate explanation in the movie.

I also completely agree. It’s fine to not like some aspect of a movie, but you should at least acknowledge what the people who made it were trying to do. Deliberately misinterpreting the themes of the movie (which I have unfortunately done sometimes) only makes you look like an idiot.

That’s kind of the point though. Luke is worried he’ll make the same mistake he made with Vader, so he exiles himself to Ach-To. But Yoda convinces him to learn from his mistakes, that past actions don’t define you. Luke thinks he’s regressing, but he realizes that he isn’t. Han being a smuggler in TFA was a true regression, since it was only done to make Han more recognizable to the audience. Luke’s arc in TLJ seems like a regression, but it actually serves a storytelling purpose.

Yeah, like I said, it’s not a dealbreaker, and I understand Rian’s intentions. I personally don’t like it, but I can live with it.

I agree with the decision to keep the flashback scene as is. I don’t really have a problem with most of Luke’s character arc in TLJ. Having Luke go into exile was a great choice that really humanized his character. I do have a problem with Luke trying to kill Ben, but it’s not a dealbreaker for me, and I understand the arguments of the people who like it. The other elements I don’t like (the record scratch as Luke tosses the saber, the lack of a scene of Luke mourning Han, Luke drinking the green milk) were fixed in Rekindled, so I’m mostly happy with Luke’s portrayal in this edit.

Indeed. This discussion was probably better for General Star Wars Discussion, although it is somewhat relevant to fanediting.