StarkillerAG

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

Hal 9000 said:

Let’s not call people Trump, please.

I know, it was an exaggeration. I shouldn’t have said that.

“Exaggeration” doesn’t quite capture the jump from “I don’t like the change in colour because it doesn’t make story sense” to a homophobic white supremacist that’s killed over 210,000 people this year… 🙄

I know, it just hit me at the time. It was a bad comparison. Trump is not a good person. You’re 5 million times better than him. Please don’t take it personally.

Hal 9000 said:

Let’s not call people Trump, please.

I know, it was an exaggeration. I shouldn’t have said that.

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

This is about as productive as an average political debate.

I’d go further: It’s about as productive as the Trump vs Biden debate.
JakeRyan is Trump in this scenario.

Because THAT statement is productive. 🙄

I’m only disagreeing about concepts and content, I’m not actively trying to be an asshole to you.

But we’re just saying stuff like “I think it looks cool” while you’re saying “BUT ACTUALLY, there’s never been any red lighting in the movies before, so you can’t just show it without any explanation, OBJECTIVELY WRONG!”

Completely ignoring the fact that new Force powers have shown up all the time without explanation in these movies, and that’s how Force lightning became part of the franchise in the first place. That’s why I made that comparison, because it just feels like you’re sucking the fun out of a potentially neat idea.

And i didn’t resort to attacking you as a person, I talked about storytelling techniques and why introducing something that impacts the plot is different to changing something that had already been established. It’s not a new power, and if it is… it should be presented as a new power. But it isn’t.

You’re countering that with “it looks cool, and you’re like Donald Trump for disagreeing!” 🙄

But I already established that new powers can show up in Star Wars with no explanation. Force levitation showed up, and no one treated it like it was anything new. Force lightning showed up, and no one treated it like it was anything new. Force running showed up, and no one treated it like it was anything new. The list goes on. Red lightning isn’t really a new power anyway, and it doesn’t affect the plot, it’s just an aesthetic choice to highlight Palpatine’s power.

And the Trump comparison was a bit too extreme. But AniStar had just mentioned political debates, so it was right there.

JakeRyan17 said:

StarkillerAG said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

This is about as productive as an average political debate.

I’d go further: It’s about as productive as the Trump vs Biden debate.
JakeRyan is Trump in this scenario.

Because THAT statement is productive. 🙄

I’m only disagreeing about concepts and content, I’m not actively trying to be an asshole to you.

But we’re just saying stuff like “I think it looks cool” while you’re saying “BUT ACTUALLY, there’s never been any red lighting in the movies before, so you can’t just show it without any explanation, OBJECTIVELY WRONG!”

Completely ignoring the fact that new Force powers have shown up all the time without explanation in these movies, and that’s how Force lightning became part of the franchise in the first place. That’s why I made that comparison, because it just feels like you’re sucking the fun out of a potentially neat idea.

Anakin Starkiller said:

This is about as productive as an average political debate.

I’d go further: It’s about as productive as the Trump vs Biden debate.
JakeRyan is Trump in this scenario.

ray_afraid said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

somebody please explain to me why it’s seemingly universally considered the best in the Saga?

You’ll understand when ya grow up. Kind of a pointless conversation right now.

Gotta love the blatant ageism. Empire is great, but it isn’t the kind of movie where you can only truly appreciate it as an experienced adult. At its core, it’s still a blockbuster action movie.

JakeRyan17 said:

It’s a name that was created for that storyline. Palpatine, much like the term Sith, was used for the OT and its marketing materials. Sidious was treated as his truer name, with Palpatine being more of the disguise.

Not to get too technical, but the name Palpatine was actually first used in the 90’s EU. Before then, he was just called “the emperor”. Either way, the name was much more prominent in the prequels, so I don’t see why using Palpatine can be seen as ignoring the prequels. Those movies never hinted that Sidious was his true name, it was just the nickname given to him by the Sith order. Either name is fine in my opinion.

JakeRyan17 said:

A lot of Luke’s motivations were solidified by the conversation where he uses Sidious’ name: and describes the plot of the prequels. Abrams did everything he could to ignore as much of the saga as he could. He remade A New Hope, gave some nostalgia, didn’t complete any character arcs, then four years later strings together something that references his movie and a scene from RotS. He prioritised looks over story at every turn, and the films are so shallow because of it. Johnson told a story, even if people didn’t like the story he told. There are layers and connections to evolving the saga as a whole.

But what does that have to do with Palpatine’s name? You implied that using Sidious is somehow an indicator that Rian cared about his story, and that using Palpatine is somehow an indication that JJ didn’t care about telling a good story. I don’t really understand how that makes sense.

Also, TFA isn’t a remake of ANH. I have no idea how that idea became so common. Besides a few surface-level callbacks, the movies are nothing alike. And I don’t think that not resolving character arcs in TFA should be considered a criticism, given that it was intended to be the first installment of a trilogy.

JakeRyan17 said:

Last Jedi used Sidious and Rise of Skywalker used Palpatine based on the desire of one filmmaker to tie into the entire saga, and the other to just make a sequel to his film from four years prior and tie into his childhood toys.

That’s some major reaching. Just because Rian used Sidious doesn’t mean he wanted to bridge together the saga, and just because JJ used Palpatine doesn’t mean he only cared about toys. I feel like your whole “Rian is a true auteur, JJ is a lazy hack” thing sometimes causes you to make unnecessary assumptions.

David__B said:

Also, has it been already suggested to making the Sith Eternal Acolytes chant “Sidious” instead of “Palpatine” (them calling him by his Sith name makes more sense)?

I don’t think they were actually chanting any real words. It was just vaguely evil sounding gibberish.

That’s a big wall of text, Birdwatcher. I personally think that if you need to do some insanely complicated metatextual reading in order to explain why a certain scene is bad, then you’re reaching a bit too far. I’m not a big fan of the Plinkett-style long-form criticism, I prefer to just look at what’s in the movie. And when I watch the movie, I still think the throne room part is great. It’s hard to put into words why, though.

Broom Kid said:

StarkillerAG said:

Yes, you did.

No. I really didn’t. My posts are all right there, man. I’m not gonna keep doing this.

Sorry.

I’m not going to either. Do we really need to keep doing this childish “No you didn’t, yes you did” sort of thing? I was already done with the argument, I said I didn’t want it to get this hostile.

macesmajored said:

One thing that stood out to me was Hux going from a frantic “OPEN FIRE” to being calm and collected just a couple shots later. It’s one of the only things that stood out as a potential “acting continuity” error. Not much to do there if you are keeping with all comedy removed in that scene though- so I do understand.

That was in the original version, though. All the trimming occurred before the “OPEN FIRE” line.

Broom Kid said:

StarkillerAG said:

You were the one who started with the whole “what we need in Star Wars right now” thing

No, I didn’t. Please stop doing this. It’s not a large thread, the posts aren’t hard to find, they’re all right there.

Yes, you did. I just said something about how political leanings aren’t a factor in my opinions. You’re the one who started with the comparisons to Nixon, and saying that we need a movie like the one you want in these times. Like you said, the posts are literally right there, anyone can check to see I’m telling the truth.

I just don’t see why redemption stories are always bad, or why villain characters shouldn’t be allowed redemption.

I never said either of these things either. Just that I would like a Star Wars movie where this wasn’t a key aspect for once. There was never anything on my part that said “redemption stories are bad” or “villains shouldn’t get redemption.” I’m not dismissing redemption stories entirely, I’m saying I, myself, would like to not see one in Star Wars for awhile, even just for the novelty of not having that aspect play such a big role.

But you implied that ROTJ and TROS were bad because the villains got redemption, and you described the idea of a redemption arc as “uplifting idiotic genocidal fascists”. That’s pretty loaded language, and it gave me the idea that you don’t like redemption stories at all.

But we should probably stop now. I never intended this argument to get so heated.

The Pimps of Ren.

Broom Kid said:

StarkillerAG said:
But I could also argue that in a time of such heated political debates, with both sides seemingly willing to start a second US civil war at the flip of a switch, I don’t know if a movie that says “your enemies are beyond all hope, kill them all” is what we really need right now.

This is twice you’ve tried to make what I said into a completely separate thing and I still don’t understand why you’re doing it.

You were the one who started with the whole “what we need in Star Wars right now” thing, I was just going along with it.

Lord of the Rings and other fantasy related stories get away with it because they’re good stories executed well, which is all any story needs to “get away” with almost anything. I legit don’t understand why a Star Wars fan would immediately, automatically, reject the notion that it would be nice for a new Star Wars movie to NOT be so hung up on a redemption narrative.

I’m not rejecting it, you’re misinterpreting me. I just don’t see why redemption stories are always bad, or why villain characters shouldn’t be allowed redemption.

And yes, Darth Vader’s Redemption in the OT was mostly unsatisfying dramatically. The satisfaction in the OT’s end wasn’t Vader’s redemption, but Luke’s success. Return of the Jedi is the least satisfying of the three and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that it’s the one that became a story about saving Darth Vader. Luke’s success is what made it work, not Vader’s redemption. The two are interlinked, but they’re not the same thing. Kylo’s arc was bad because it was poorly written, executed poorly, and in the end, the focus on his arc at the expense of almost everyone else’s story made that story unsatisfying. Which is why I said It’d be nice if there was a new Star Wars movie that wasn’t so focused on redeeming the genocidal idiot bad guy for once.

That’s completely subjective. I personally thought that ROTJ was mediocre because of the first two acts, and the part where Vader gets redeemed is actually the best part of the movie. I also thought that TROS was disappointing because the story was rushed and Palpatine’s resurrection was contrived, both of which had nothing to do with Kylo’s redemption. They could have still had a redemption for Kylo without creating any of the movie’s issues.

I don’t get how your argument ever really addresses my suggestion that a Star Wars movie not focused on a “redeem the bad guy” narrative could be fun to watch, and that giving the “redeem the bad guy” narrative a rest is a valid option they could pursue. I simply would like to see that again. It worked pretty well back in 1977, for example. Star Wars doesn’t only have to be the one kind of story, and I’d like to see a more simple good v. evil story in this fantasy movie.

I don’t see what’s so wrong with that.

I agree with that, and I can see why a simplistic good-vs-evil story would be appealing. Avengers Endgame had that kind of story, and it made insane amounts of money at the box office. I just don’t see why you should dismiss the redemption story entirely either. In my opinion, it can definitely be executed well.

That feels like a lot of nitpicking, and I’m not sure if it’s really valid. The whole point of that scene is that the audience can’t be sure if Palpatine is telling the truth. He’s manipulative, what he says to one person can be different from what he says to another. He acts like he doesn’t care about Luke, but in reality he’s afraid. He knows the light is more powerful than the darkness, and tries his best to eliminate the closest threat to his power. But he didn’t realize that the closest threat to him was his own second-in-command. Him not realizing that Vader will betray him is a key plot point, it’s not a hole in the story or anything like that. He claimed that Luke had a lack of vision, but in reality he was the one who couldn’t forsee his own demise.

Broom Kid said:

The sympathetic Vader/Kylo figures are ultimately THE focal point of all 9 Skywalker Saga movies. There might be something between that focal point and why ultimately the saga is unsatisfying dramatically and emotionally, is all I’m saying.

If you’re saying that Darth Vader’s redemption in the OT was “unsatisfying dramatically and emotionally”, I’m afraid we weren’t watching the same movies. Kylo’s character arc was bad because they wrote his character badly, not because he was a “sympathetic fascist”.

Star Wars came out shortly after the country (barely) survived a Nixonian hellscape (and it can be argued it wasn’t defeated, it just metastacized into its current form) and that simplistic take on good and evil is historically cited as one of THE biggest reasons it was a feel-good four-quadrant success. In that instance, it WAS very good to simplify one side.

We could use that now, is what I’m saying. Instead of yet another iteration on the “redeem the bad guy” narrative.

But I could also argue that in a time of such heated political debates, with both sides seemingly willing to start a second US civil war at the flip of a switch, I don’t know if a movie that says “your enemies are beyond all hope, kill them all” is what we really need right now. Lord of the Rings and other related fantasy stories got away with it, because their villains were literally inhuman embodiments of evil. But when the villains are living flesh-and-blood humans, the whole “kill all the villains” plot line seems a bit wrong.

Trevorrow’s Duel of the Fates script, despite all its flaws, did do one thing right: the idea of a stormtrooper rebellion. It portrays these normally faceless villains as being helpless puppets of an evil regime, and allows them to get a second chance and fight for good instead of evil. That’s downright inspiring, and I’m incredibly disappointed we didn’t get it in the final movie. That sort of stuff is what I want to see in Star Wars, not another simplistic story were everyone on the wrong side suffers horrible deaths.

Umm, this isn’t a PM.

I know, but you could have linked to a YouTube rant that wasn’t made by a noted member of the alt-right. There are a bunch of YouTube rant videos about this movie out there, surely it wouldn’t be that hard.

But we’re getting off topic here. I agree that Hal’s edit fixes most of the issues I had with the movie. The only thing I still don’t like is Rey being a Palpatine, so I’m still waiting for the nobody version to fix that.

Broom Kid said:

I’d like a movie by any set of storytellers about good people learning how to be better people at while triumphing over bad people who are doing bad things for their own benefit.

God, I’d love to see a story like that in Star Wars.

Hasn’t that been literally every Star Wars movie ever made? I think the sympathetic Vader/Kylo figures you describe are the exception, not the norm. Either way, I think it’s overly simplistic to say that no one in a fictional fascist state should be allowed to have any sympathetic motivations whatsoever. Regardless of your political leanings, I don’t think it’s very good to simplify one side into being a bunch of complete monsters who do evil things just for shits and giggles. That’s not how real life conflict works.

Hal 9000 said:

Muffy, I’ll check that video out sometime.

Don’t, it’s by some Neo-Nazi idiot I know about. I remember his Steven Universe review decayed into a deranged anti-Semitic rant halfway though, so I would probably avoid him.

EddieDean said:

Will you use any of the edits/ideas from Hal’s or Neverargreat?

I’m honestly not sure. I mostly want this trilogy to be my own edits, without taking any clips directly from other peoples’ work. I’ll still take inspiration from other edits, but I want these versions to stand on their own.

After thinking over it for a bit, here are some ideas that I want to try in TFA:

• Cut Finn seeing the death of his stormtrooper friend. It introduces a weird subplot with humanized stormtroopers that’s never really continued throughout the rest of the trilogy, and Poe killing Finn’s best friend makes their relationship afterwards feel really awkward.
• Cut Kylo freaking out when he hears about Finn and Rey for the first time. It’s a pointless comic relief scene that makes Kylo feel like a joke, and it implies a past between Rey and Kylo that was never really expounded upon.
• Cut the whole deal with the Rahtars and Kanjiklub. It adds nothing to the movie, and just drags the pace down. Because of this, Kylo’s first conversation with Snoke has been postponed to after the heroes are spotted in Maz’s cantina, and the scene with Vader’s helmet that was originally there has been postponed a scene later.
• Starkiller Base still destroys the New Republic in that scene’s theatrical place, but the reaction shots of the heroes observing it are gone. It completely destroys any sense of internal consistency with how far apart things are from each other.
• Cut Kylo freaking out when he realizes Rey escaped, for the same reason I cut his earlier freakout moment.
• The First Order no longer discovers the Resistance base’s location in this movie. It was always a lame attempt to add tension to the final act, and removing it helps the time skip between TFA and TLJ feel more believable.
• Like I said already, Artoo doesn’t give the map to the Resistance, leading to Rey going on a one year search to find Luke. The credits roll after the Falcon jumps to hyperspace.

And Obi-Wan and Darth Vader are listed under “teams”. Because as we all know, they were best friends in that movie. 😉