Smoking Lizard

So, Rey finds Luke and offers him his lighsaber. What happens next? Let’s take a look at how the conversation must have went:

Luke: “What’s that?”

Rey: “It’s your lightsaber, sir.”

Luke: “My lightsaber? No, there must be some mistake. I’ve got mine right here.”

Rey: “No, sir, I believe this is your original lightsaber.”

Luke: “Whaaaaat?!? Let me see that! Well I’ll be a gundark’s uncle…it is my lightsaber! How did you get it? I mean, I lost this, like, 33 years ago. I dropped it onto a gas giant planet. Gas giant planets have a solid core, don’t they?”

Rey: “Yes, sir. I think so.”

Luke: “Wow! Well, but the solid surface would be under so much gravity and so much tremendous air pressure, you’d be crushed! I wonder how you got it? And look! There’s not a scratch on my lightsaber! It fell for, like, miles and miles and didn’t even get dented when it landed!”

Rey: “Um, I guess so, sir. I wouldn’t know anything about that. Some short orangish or yellowish lady gave it to me.”

Luke: “Ah, OK. Well that explains it. So…I see you solved my little ‘Where’s Luke’ puzzle. Tell me, how did you do it.”

Rey: “Oh, yeah! That! Well there was this old man on my home planet Jakku. He had the map.”

Luke: “Ah, yes! My old buddy Lor! How’s the old guy doing?”

Rey: “Um, he’s dead, sir.”

Luke: “Dead?! What do you mean dead?!”

Rey: “Well, you see, sir, evidently your nephew…”

Luke: “Ben?”

Rey: “Well, he calls himself ‘Ren’ now, sir.”

Luke: “Ren. OK, go on…”

Rey: “Anyway, so your nephew Ren showed up with a bunch of stormtroopers, looking for your map. I guess he’s looking for you, sir.”

Luke: “Oh, OK, but how did Lor die? That’s what I asked about.”

Rey: “Oh, that. Yes. Well, your nephew Ren killed him.”

Luke: “Awwwwww…is Ren still doing that kind of crap? Killing people and stuff?”

Rey: “Well, yeah. In fact, he wanted the map to find you so bad, he set this village on fire and then murdered all the innocent villagers.”

Luke: “Oh…”

Rey: “Yeah. And then Ren tortured a Resistance pilot to get the location of your map out of him.”

Luke: “Tortured? Oh…”

Rey: “Yeah, well, then as luck would have it, I found the Resistance pilot’s droid, who was carrying your map.”

Luke: “Oh. A droid? I like droids. How’d you like that little gimmick I did with R2 being asleep? Ha ha! I bet that got you guys going! The other half of the map was inside R2 all along!”

Rey: “Um, yeah. It was…interesting, I suppose. Um, why did you make R2 go to sleep for all that time?”

Luke: “Well because I didn’t want him to give away his half of the map! You see?”

Rey: “Oh. R2 isn’t trustworthy?”

Luke: “Of course R2 is trustworthy! Why do you think I trusted him with the map?! Wow…I’m beginning to have my doubts about you.”

Rey: “Oh, well it’s just that if you trust R2, why did you put him to slee…oh, never mind. Anyway, so I had the droid with your map and then I bumped into this stormtrooper guy who had defected from the First Order. So we hopped aboard the Millenium Falcon and took off and then we bumped into Han Solo.”

Luke: “Cool! My old buddy Han.”

Rey: “Yeah, well Mr. Solo told us we had to talk to that orange or yellow lady I told you about earlier. He told us she could help us get the droid carrying your map to the Resistance planet.”

Luke: “Why didn’t you just fly to the Resistance planet?”

Rey: “Um, you’d have to ask Mr. Solo that, sir. Anyway, the orange lady gave me your lightsaber. I think the stormtrooper guy asked how she got it from the surface of a gas giant planet, but she told us she’d tell us later.”

Luke: “Oh. Well I’m really excited to hear that story!”

Rey: “Well, yeah, anyway, your nephew showed up again on this planet and he and his troops blew up the orange lady’s castle and killed just about everyone inside it.”

Luke: “Heavens! All those innocent people? Why did he do that?!”

Rey: “Well because he wanted your map!”

Luke: “Oh…”

Rey: “Yeah, I didn’t think that made much sense, either. I’m not sure why he blew up the castle if he thought we were inside. I mean, your map would be buried under all the rubble or get burned up in the fires. I’m not sure why he did that. He’s not the sharpest knife in the drawer.”

Luke: “So…um…all those people died because Ben, er, um, Ren wanted my map?”

Rey: “Pretty much.”

Luke: “Oh…that’s so…terrible. All those people…dead. My old friend Lor, dead, too. Man, at least it’s good to hear Han’s still alive and kicking.”

Rey: “Oh, no. He’s dead, too.”

Luke: “WHAT?!?”

Rey: “Yeah, see, Ren wanted your map so desperately, he captured me and took me to this planet where they had this thing that blows up planets. So Mr. Solo, Chewbacca, and that stormtrooper guy I was telling you about landed on that planet to save me. While trying to save me, Ren killed Han.”

Luke: “Ohhhhh…my…heavens…that’s…this is the worst day of my life…”

Rey: “Well, yeah. Anyway, at least I’m here. So, um, what did you want?”

Luke: “What’s that, now?”

Rey: “Oh, um, you know – what did you want? Why did you hide the map and all that jazz? I’m here after all of that, so what’s the big, monumental thing you want to reveal to me?”

Luke: “Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh, yeah! Ha ha, yeah, um, that.” Scratches back of neck “I, um, you know, just wanted to test to see how, um, you know, good you are at the Force and, um, stuff…”

TV’s Frink said:

Again, you are arguing on-screen only in one case and allowing off-screen in another.

But you aren’t inconsistent, your arguments are.

Deductive Fallacy is a deductive argument that is invalid. The argument itself could have true premises, but still have a false conclusion. Thus, a deductive fallacy is a fallacy where deduction goes wrong, and is no longer a logical process.

TV’s Frink said:

So you’re ignoring ROTJ Luke and Leia but defending your position with a ROTJ script and novel.

I’ve already conceded that the ROTJ timeline – particularly the tripe about Leia being Luke’s brother and the Emperor knowing that Luke is Vader’s son – is contrived.

I’m not defending my position – I’m just explaining that the TESB has a plausible story. Granted, you make a good point that the evidence that Luke was brought to Tatooine by Obi Wan and given to his brother is out of the ROTJ script, but even without that, it’s still perfectly plausible: Luke grew up on Tatooine under adoptive parents that may or may not have been his blood relatives. Obi Wan took up residence nearby to watch over Luke.

The “watching over” part is out of the original “Star Wars” radio drama and might be referenced in the novel. I could be wrong about the novel part, as my memory is sketchy on that. Either way, the radio dramas are/were considered original G-canon.

Furthermore, if you are going to allow scripts and novels in order to defend your position, you better check those for TFA as well.

My critiques of TFA are of stuff I saw on the screen. I don’t need any more supporting documentation because I’m referring to what was presented on screen. In our discussion of Luke’s background and the TESB timeline, a lot of the backstory is not stated on screen and left open, so it’s helpful to go to supporting canon documentation to fill in those gaps.

Even so, in my defense, I was the one who went to the now-canonical “Before the Awakening” book (or whatever it’s called) to offer up the story about how Rey found a flight simulator to explain how she can fly the MF.

Yeah, you’re quite consistent.

Ad hominem - an argument directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

hydrospanner said:

That’s wonderful… I thought we were discussing the films here and not early drafts of the script or novels.

Sorry. I was discussing the original canon, not just the movies. Is there a rule here on this board that discussion is to be confined to only the movies?

hydrospanner said:

Wait… What? So Owen was Obi-Wan’s brother? I don’t remember that from the movie.

It’s in the original ROTJ script and in the original ROTJ novelization.

TV’s Frink said:

Of course it’s contrived in 1980.

No, it is not.

In ANH, Vader just happens to chase Leia to the planet where his son and her brother lives…

Leia was not Luke’s sister in 1980.

and he just happens to take possession of his sister’s droids…

See above.

one of which just happens to be carrying the stolen plans his father is trying to retrieve?

Yes. According to the original storyline (forget the prequel sh!t), Obi Wan took Luke to Tatooine to live with his brother, Owen Lars. Obi Wan remained on Tatooine and lived nearby, often checking in on Luke as Luke was growing up and oftentimes coming to Luke’s aid when Luke got into trouble.

So, these are the key takeaways from this so far: Obi Wan had a small boy to care for. He logically took the boy to his brother and his wife, so that Luke could have a mother and father figure. Tatooine is a remote, dead, completely unimportant planet that virtually no one knows about and no one cares about. Perfect place for Obi Wan to go into hiding. And the perfect remote, hidden, unknown place for Luke to grow up.

Leia programmed R2 to deliver the plans to Obi Wan. She gave R2 the rough coordinates to Obi Wan’s home. R2 was on his way to deliver the plans directly to Obi Wan when he was caught by Jawas, who then sold R2 to Owen and Luke, who happened to live right there in the neighborhood.

Perfectly plausible story.

Admittedly, the story gets contrived with ROTJ and then goes to complete sh!t with the prequels.

You aren’t being consistent in your complaints.

As you can see above, I am.

TV’s Frink said:

I didn’t post that, but whatever.

Good point. I apologize. A consequence of poor quote-tree editing on my part.

Because Luke being Vader’s son is the most contrived thing in all of Star Wars.

According to the original 1980 timeline, it’s not contrived at all. Admittedly, it becomes contrived with the ROTJ timeline and then becomes absurdly contrived with the prequel timelines.

You really need to go back and watch the film.

Finn gets to the crashed TIE , approaches the cockpit shouting for Poe, moves the jacket so he can look inside the cockpit, but the moment he tries to look inside the ground begins to give way and the TIE sinks. He doesn’t get a chance to climb inside. This all happens within a few seconds. Finn shouts out for Poe as it is sinking. He believes he was trapped inside the ship and dies. So why the hell would he go off in search of someone he believes is dead?

You really need to go back and read my post. This time for comprehension. Perhaps get a refund on that speed reading course you took! Ha ha. Joke, joke.

But, no, seriously, nothing of what you wrote above in any way conflicts with the points I made about Poe, Finn, and the jacket. Go back and read closely.

TV’s Frink said:

I’m sorry, I must have missed the part in the original trilogy where they show how quicksand in a desert is against the rules.

Oh, no. It’s OK. You didn’t miss that, as there wasn’t any contrived quicksand in the OT.

But as explained elsewhere in this thread, the “dry quicksand” element is contrived because the planet Jakku is literally littered with junk from previous battles that has not been eaten up by any quicksand. So here we have a case where a fantasy isn’t bothering to follow its own rules.

I know, I know. Let me say it for you so you don’t have to waste keystrokes: Poe & Finn’s TIE fighter just so happened to land on a spot of dry quicksand…and it’s sort of “delayed-acting dry quicksand.” That is, it only activates at the key moment a main movie character comes upon a vessel sitting upon it that needs to be conveniently gotten rid of to move the contrived story along.

So what we really have is this: If the TIE fighter is crashed, logically (again, here we go, trying to apply logic to this mess), Finn would climb into the wreckage to find Poe, the guy who just helped him escape certain death. Upon not locating Poe’s body, Finn, a decent human being, would be compelled to, you know, go look around the desert some to try to find Poe – after all, maybe he’s still alive somewhere and desperately in need of help. But no. We don’t want to waste valuable screen time with all that logic mess, so we’ll just have the desert swallow up the TIE fighter and “explain” it away by having another character babble something about quicksand earlier.

OH! But wait a minute. Finn found Poe’s jacket. This would give him evidence that Poe survived the crash and took the jacket off because it’s hot. Right? So, logically, wouldn’t Finn conclude that Poe is still alive? And, you know, probably wandering around the desert, hoping to find Finn? Nah! Let’s put the jacket on in an arid desert, forget about that schmuck Poe, go wander down to the settlement, and then tell everybody there that I meet that Poe didn’t make it – even though I have good reason to believe he did make it.

boredom3031 said:

Plausible stops being a thing when you’re watching a movie that already has magical powers and lazer swords.

We’ll have to part ways on this opinion. It’s fine for a movie to include fantasy elements, so long as the movie obeys its own rules.

For example, if I create a horror movie where the monster can travel like a ghost through walls to attack its prey, and then I end the movie by just capturing the monster that can travel through walls in a box, that would be stupid right?

The movie wouldn’t obey its own rules, right?

That would be implausible.

Arguing that, “It’s a movie about monsters that travel through walls, for f@cks sake! It’s fantasy!” would be an irrational defense of the catch-the-monster-in-a-box ending.

TV’s Frink said:

And regardless, it’s a fucking movie in space. Quicksand doesn’t have to follow Earth rules, because the movie does not take place on Earth. So no, quicksand in a desert is not impossible because it’s not an Earth desert.

Certainly anything is possible. If Abrams would have cooked up a thing where Chewbacca turned out to be Ren’s true father because the midichlorians modified Chewbacca’s wookie sperm to be compatible with a human egg, you’d be arguing that that would be fine, too…because after all, in your own words, “It’s a fucking movie in space,” and sperm on Jakku or Takodana do not necessarily behave as sperm do on earth.

Let me know when you can link to a video explaining how quicksand works on Jakku.

This is where we get into the ugly realm of what is possible vs. what is plausible. Unfortunately, it seems that some folks here aren’t able or aren’t willing to discern the difference.

TV’s Frink said:

Smoking Lizard said:

Protocol Droid said:

So you don’t like the quicksand explanation. Why? Is quicksand impossible?

In an arid desert, yes, quicksand is impossible. The concept of “dry quicksand” has never been demonstrated to exist in nature. Real quicksand, the stuff that occurs naturally, requires lots of water. Here’s a great video demonstrating what quicksand really is:

https://youtu.be/JHCW_bqWLTo

But hey, it’s a movie. Check your brain at the door, I guess. Movies aren’t supposed to make sense.

Wait…what?

Right, because The Force, hyperspace, lightsabers, aliens that live for hundreds of years, blasters, space stations that can blow up a planet, and walking carpets have all been demonstrated to exist in nature.

The question that was posed to me was, “Is quicksand impossible?”

Protocol Droid said:

The whole film is contrived. Most films are.

I have to respectfully strongly beg to differ with you on this point. There are plenty of movies that involve fantasy elements that are not contrived.

The original Star Wars, sans the ridiculous prequel-imposed timeline and prequel-imposed revised backstory, is a perfect example of a film that is not contrived. The same can be said about TESB.

Hey! Check it out! It’s the new Darth Vader with the guy from KISS!

mes1983 said:
Yes, just like Luke learned to fly an X-wing by flying a Skyhopper through Begger’s Canyon:-p

"T-16s are a lot like the snubfighters we're using."

"I know, I looked one over. I'm sure I can handle it." 

―Biggs Darklighter and Luke Skywalker

John Doom said:

So, out of all the starship models in existence, she learned to fly exactly the one she would eventually pilot? 😄

Yep.

Leia: “Han, bring our son Ren home!”

Yes. Please do. To face multiple counts of mass murder, genocide, and other egregious crimes against humanity. And then be found guilty and be executed by lethal injection.

While watching TFA, I was wondering how comes Rey can pilot ships.

As I understand it, there’s a “now canonical” short storybook called “Before the Awakening” or something along that line that “explains” this.

Turns out Rey found a flight simulator in the Star Destroyer while scavenging. She was bored with nothing to do, so she started practicing on the flight simulator, which, um, taught her how to fly the Millenium Falcon.

Sure. Because Imperials would certainly have a flight simulator for Han Solo’s YT-1300.

Protocol Droid said:

Smoking Lizard,

I don’t have a problem with you not liking many aspects of the film. I have a few of the same gripes as well, but the problem with some of your posts is that after saying what you didn’t like, you really don’t explain ‘why’ you don’t like them.

That’s because it should be intuitive why I don’t like them.

WHY don’t you like 2-seater TIE fighters?

Because it’s contrived. It’s overly convenient just to move the poorly written story along, that’s why. We need a spaceship…let’s take a TIE fighter…because that would be so COOL!

So you don’t like the quicksand explanation. Why? Is quicksand impossible?

In an arid desert, yes, quicksand is impossible. The concept of “dry quicksand” has never been demonstrated to exist in nature. Real quicksand, the stuff that occurs naturally, requires lots of water. Here’s a great video demonstrating what quicksand really is:

https://youtu.be/JHCW_bqWLTo

But hey, it’s a movie. Check your brain at the door, I guess. Movies aren’t supposed to make sense.

Wait…what?

Also, some of your gripes are either snarky or sarcastic to the point which makes me wonder if you even liked the film at all?

And you’d be right about this! Out of four stars, I give TFA half a star. And that’s only for Daisy Ridley’s performance. Everything else was really, really bad. At least as bad as the prequels.

WHY is this a problem? BB-8 Knows this is his master’s jacket. He is a droid and has a perfect memory of every detail of the jacket. Rey mistakes Finn is a thief or some kind of bad guy and stops him. Why is this a problem?

Because she smashed him in the face with a blunt weapon?!? Imagine a friend tells you that a guy over there is wearing his friend’s jacket. Would you go over and smash him in the face?!? No! You would say, “Pardon me, may I speak with you a moment? Can you tell me where you got that jacket?”

And let’s not even bother asking the obvious elephant-in-the-room question: Why did Finn even put the stupid jacket on to begin with…on the surface of an arid desert?! Sentimental reasons? Because he wanted to have something to remember Poe by? He was feeling sentimental about a guy he’d met 10 minutes earlier, so let’s put on his jacket and risk dying from heat stroke in an arid desert!

Get it? The reason why Finn put on the jacket wasn’t for a logical reason in the movie’s universe; he put it on because BB-8 needed some way to recognize him. That’s the very definition of contrived.

“Oh no! The First Order is on to us! They’re chasing us!”
Again, WHY is this a problem for you? The First Order is trying to capture a droid and a traitor. They will be chasing them…what were they supposed to do?

Because, again, it’s contrived. Finn has made it perfectly clear that the First Order is looking specifically for BB-8 with a perfect description of what the droid looks like. Yet they make no effort whatsoever at hiding him? Heck, we know the First Order is looking specifically for BB-8 and have an exact description of him. Let’s take him into Maz Kanata’s really, really crowded bar, packed full of sketchy characters who might just be First Order informants!

Guys, it’s sloppy, slapdash, juvenile writing, as if the script was written by an 11-year-old.

hydrospanner said:
Who said he had completed his training while he was stationed there? And where was it established that he is the First Order equivalent of the Green Beret?

I’m not sure why I’m going to attempt to apply logic to this screwball story line, but let’s try anyway.

So by your thinking, Finn was a baby, learned his ABCs from his First Order teachers, grew into a teen, and then studied the textbook, “The Art of Stormtrooping, First Order Style,” and then graduated stormtrooper high school and then put a droid out of a job on Starkiller Central buy becoming the garbage man. Then, he evidently took out the garbage so well, Captain Fantasma noticed him and selected him for her elite of the elite elite squad.

Uh huh.

hydrospanner said:

I don’t see why some don’t find the idea of Finn working sanitation while stationed at the base to be so unbelievable. Aren’t new recruits in real world militaries often tasked with menial jobs before they can rise through the ranks?

Do the Green Berets complete their Green Beret training and then get assigned to the Pentagon to take out the garbage?

Answer: No.

Also…sanitation in Star Wars…that’s what droids are for.

SpilkaBilka said:

This is minor, but I can’t help it. Before the briefing at the rebel base, is it ever established that Finn was stationed at the Starkiller?

Well he was the janitor of the Starkiller base! (Not making this up). Either the janitor or the garbage man. Maybe both.

It just seems to come out of nowhere at the end of the movie that in addition to being this hero, he also knows that the weakness to the thermal oscillator is in sector 45 or whatever.

Well, as the janitor, I’m sure he had a lot of sweeping to do all over Starkiller base. So I’m sure he got to see lots of stuff and overhear many conversations.

Vince Gilligan had been given the job instead of JJ Abrams. Good God, just imagine the possibilities.

John Doom said:

Usually soldiers are taught how to handle close quarter combats, and all that guy was asking for was a fair fight against the “traitor”.

Well, OK. Yes, I got that that was the “cool moment” Abrams was going for. But it was something absurdly corny that you’d see out of a cheap comic book.

Think of it this way: An American soldier is firing on an ISIS fighter. The ISIS fighter runs out of bullets. So the American throws down his rifle and calls the ISIS fighter out for a fist fight so that the fight can be “fair”?!

And the scene is even made sillier when you think of this: Why would a stormtrooper even be armed with a melee weapon that can CONVENIENTLY deflect lightsaber blades? Before you say, “So they can fight the Jedi!”, the Jedi are extinct (except for Luke). So they pose no threat. Why would your foot soldiers be armed with such an impractical weapon?

This is just yet another case of, “Let’s throw a lot of really ‘cool’ sh!t on the screen!” without any regard for whether or not the “cool” sh!t makes any sense.

SilverWook said:

My problem is you were ripping this movie before you even saw it.

With all due respect, and I’m not trying to be mean or rude, but how is it you can’t see this as completely irrational? I repeated multiple times that I was critiquing the story, not any other element of the movie.

To sit there and insist that you can’t critique the movie’s story without first seeing it is just like saying you can’t like a song’s lyrics unless you’ve heard it on the radio first. It’s irrational.

And even with your reasoning in place, how does that make me, a new member clearly interested in discussion – however heated it might be – at troll?

A troll is someone who’s intent is to simply be disruptive. Someone who expresses different and/or controversial opinions is the opposite of a troll – they’re the lifeblood of a discussion forum. They get people talking. They make discussions interesting.

Buy a ticket before you kvetch.

You do realize that’s exactly what the multi-billion dollar studio would want every sucker to do: “Disregard all critiques, don’t evaluate our product before you buy it, and just buy it, sucker! If you want to criticize it afterwards, go right ahead – we’ve already got your money, sucker!”

Come on, guys. Critical thinking is not a bad thing.

But you shouldn’t be surprised when other people around here disagree or defend a movie they happen to like.

And I’m not. Actually, that’s what I came here for – to discuss why I disliked the movie with people who liked the movie. I’ll tell you why I disliked it…you tell me why you liked it. Along the way, maybe you can tell me why or how some of the reasons I disliked the movie are wrong or unfair. And maybe I can do the same for you.

What I do not like is when a person purportedly a moderator of a forum dedicated largely to the Original Trilogy accuses me of being a troll for simply expressing a different opinion under the ruse of, “Well, you haven’t actually seen the movie, so you’re not allowed to speak.”

Really?

And then when the moderator launches ad hominem attacks against me:

Says the fellow who was harping on the movie before they finally saw it yesterday?

I guess I’m supposed to take from this statement that my viewing of the movie was “too fresh” or something, so, again, I’m not qualified to express an opinion?

Typical outlook of modern America: You are 100% free to express anything you like, so long as I agree with you.