So…do you think they’ll have a logical explanation for why Mon Mothma appears in this movie when her character didn’t appear until ROTJ? And maybe an explanation why she’s wearing the same clothes all these years?
TV’s Frink said:
I have heard this many times here, and always from people who have zero sense of humor, or at least fail to demonstrate any here.
Or perhaps you just fail to comprehend it.
I have never wondered if you have any sense of humor.
I do, but only when someone says something that’s actually funny.
Movie, script, or novel version?
I have begun to wonder if you’re even capable of framing an argument that does not contain a logic fallacy.
TV’s Frink said:
And again, are we allowing the novel for TFA into evidence?
Absolutely! In fact, let’s admit some into evidence right now!
From the TFA novel:
“Kylo Ren, I watched the Galactic Empire rise, and then fall. The gullible prattle on about the triumph of truth and justice, of individualism and free will. As if such things were solid and real instead of simple subjective judgments. The historians have it all wrong. It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire. You know too well what did.”
Ren nodded once. “Sentiment.”
“Yes. Such a simple thing. Such a foolish error of judgment. A momentary lapse in an otherwise exemplary life. Had Lord Vader not succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment — had the father killed the son — the Empire would have prevailed. And there would be no threat of Skywalker’s return today.”
So there we have it. The “Snoke Lied to Ren About Darth Vader Turning Back to the Light” theory goes down the drain.
This is not truly a topic of great concern in my view, but a thought did occur that perhaps R2 programmed the capsule prior to its departure? After all did he not appear to be in control of its launch, etc…?
The matter, as I said, is settled by the novel: R2 piloted the pod. There’s no debate remaining. Sure, folks here can argue, if they want to, but they can also argue that the sky is green.
The ultimate nerd defense of anything is to say “it was in the script!”
Are we allowing the script defense for TFA as well?
My defense came out of the novel, not the script. Evidently your speed reading class did not serve you well!
Fine, your debate class has served you well…
Indeed, my education has served me well. Finally you and I agree on something.
- R2 and C3P0 happen to land somewhere conveniently on the side of the planet where Luke is
R2 piloted the escape pod to the location Leia told him to go. The escape pod was navigable, unlike the TIE fighter Poe and Finn were in in TFA
That was never established in the film. Nice rationalization though.
Sorry to come back to this point so late. Here it is, straight from the official 1976 novelization of the original script:
Artoo’s seemingly random manipulation of the pod controls promised anything but a smooth landing, however. Threepio regarded his squat companion with concern. “Are you sure you know how to pilot this thing?”
There you have it. From an official original canon source. Sorry it took so long, but I had lost my copy of the novel, but as luck would have it, Walmart had a copy for $7.48 (the entire trilogy in one volume…great deal)!
So my assertion that R2 piloted the escape pod was correct. Now, I’m sure some folks will attempt to stick to their guns and try to save face by insisting something like, “Yeah, OK, fine, but they didn’t show that in the movie!”
In that’s your argument, fine. Don’t waste your time replying. You can maintain that position if you want to, but clearly the evidence leans very much in my favor and the notion that R2 piloted the pod is no where near a “rationalization.”
SilverWook said:And gas giants don’t have a fiery surface. If you’re taking a vacation of Jupiter, better pack your winter underwear, not that it will help much.
From our friends at NMSU: “Jupiter’s outer layer is primarily composed of molecular hydrogen. At greater depths the hydrogen starts resembling a liquid. At 10,000 kilometers below Jupiter’s cloud top liquid hydrogen reaches a pressure of 1,000,000 bar with a temperature of 6,000 K. At this state hydrogen changes into a phase of liquid metallic hydrogen. In this state, the hydrogen atoms break down yielding ionized protons and electrons similar to the Sun’s interior. Below this is a layer dominated by ice where “ice” denotes a soupy liquid mixture of water, methane, and ammonia under high temperatures and pressures. Finally at the center is a rocky or rocky-ice core of up to 10 Earth masses. The central pressure of Jupiter is 80 Million Bars, and the temperature is 25,000 K.”
TV’s Frink said: And for someone who bends over and around so severely to point out the flaws in TFA and defend the OT for the same flaws…
False equivalence: “Both Ryan Mallett and Tom Brady throw interceptions; therefore, they are the same.”
- The Starkiller sucking out the sun…
Yeah, these villains are brilliant. Suck out the star’s fuel so that it collapses and becomes a black hole and sucks their own planet up into it. I mentioned “Get Out of Jail Free” cards; this one is a “Get Off Death Row Free” card. Good God. Fortunately at this point in the movie, your intelligence has been so badly insulted, your brain is numb to it.
TV’s Frink said:
For most of these situations there are many plausible explanations (see the lightsaber on Cloud City discussion),
Indeed. Because it is entirely plausible that Luke’s lightsaber fell down the main shaft at Bespin; got sucked into one of those, what, dozens of exhaust ducts; got caught up somehow, thereby preventing it from falling out and down to the fiery surface of the gas giant; was then found by someone or some thing in the duct (or wherever the duct may dump out or collect); recognized by that someone or some thing as something worth not throwing in the junk pile; then taken to – out of literally millions of planets in the galaxy – Maz Kanata, where she put it neatly in a box. In a box, to be given, someday, to someone, whom she met literally 10 or 15 minutes earlier.
Indeed, that is, in your words, an entirely “plausible explanation.”
IT’S HARD TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY
You keep saying this. But then you respond to my posts. You are clearly taking me seriously, even by your own admission that I frustrated you and that my critiques bother you the most, so clearly I am in your head and you are taking me seriously, so you are relieved of having to type the words, “It’s hard to take you seriously…”
And like I said before it’s more likely that he would tell his close friends and his students at the academy then telling the entire galaxy. Also seeing as how the Galaxy can’t decide who Han Solo is there’s no saying as to whether the entirety of the galaxy in it’s totality would accept Luke’s news.
The galaxy’s opinion isn’t the subject; the subject is whether or not Luke would have shared the good news of Vader’s redemption with his nephew Ben Solo (Kylo Ren).
EDIT:
Also maybe Kylo Ren is in denial over Vader turning to good. I remember bringing that up too.
At some point Ben Solo was good, yes? Otherwise Luke would have felt Ben was evil and not attempted to train him as a Jedi. So I think it’s safe to assume that before Ben became Ren he was a good, or mostly good person…yes? And then at some point, as Leia said in the movie, Snoke turned him to the Dark Side.
OK PAUSE RIGHT THERE! At this point…at this juncture…as Ben is transitioning to Ren, WHY WOULDN’T ANAKIN’S GHOST APPEAR TO BEN TO TALK HIM OUT OF IT?!
There are only two answers to this question: He did or he didn’t.
If he DID, then why is Ren “praying” to Vader’s helmet?
If he did NOT, WHY NOT?! Did Anakin lose the power to appear as a Force Ghost?!
TV’s Frink said:
And how do you know Luke told anyone what really happened anyway? He could have easily wanted to keep the whole thing to himself.
That’s been suggested somewhere before, but in my mind, it’s absurd. To understand why it’s absurd is a bit complex, and many people won’t take the time to digest it, but it is absurd.
Here’s why: Vader’s redemption is probably the happiest, greatest thing that has ever happened to Luke and a shining example of how GOOD TRIUMPHS OVER EVIL.
With Yoda’s passing, Luke is now the only champion of the Jedi Knights. He’s the only one. It is his duty, his calling, to tell a whole new generation about the Light Side of the Force and warn them away from the terrible dangers of the Dark Side.
So as the new Head Chief Jedi, Luke’s job, Luke’s duty, would be to spread the message of the power of the Light over the Dark. As Yoda said, the Dark is not more powerful, but it’s easier and seductive and must be resisted.
There simply would be no better story, no better evidence, no better shining example of how GOOD TRIUMPHS OVER EVIL than the story of Luke’s very own father.
That is not something he’d just keep to himself.
I didn’t need to bend over to see what I actually saw on the screen…
Correct. I’ll only speak for myself, but the observations I’ve made are not difficult to make. They’re right there on the screen. There was no bending involved. All that was involved was a simple matter of paying attention.
Well seeing you and Smoking Lizard have verged into not only having a less than rudimentary understanding of the film itself…
So, now, again, this is just unnecessarily hostile, as I’ve pointed out before. While I understand that you fairly disagree with me, to say that Bosk and I have “less than a rudimentary understanding of the film” is an ad hominem and unfair. Trying to imply that we’re too stupid to understand a very simple movie.
Again, it’s not that we don’t understand the explanations provided, it’s that the explanations provided are silly. You need to understand the difference.
I have seen people on here who don’t like TFA but didn’t resort the methods you and Smoking Lizard tried to employ.
You mean, as in pointing out the flaws in the plot and story?
Especially as it pertains to the nitpicking.
What is this nitpicking thing? Like I said, the Star Wars fan base keeps use this word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.
But even so, Bosk started the thread, and he labeled it, What didn’t you like about TFA?. Notice he did not put any size condition on his thread. So regardless of what you did not like about TFA, whether it’s large or small, feel free to list it here in this thread and then we’ll have fun civilly discussing why you disliked those things.
Thus, if someone says something along the lines of, “I didn’t like Rey’s costume,” or, “I don’t like the new stormtrooper armor,” saying to that person, “That’s nitpicking!” is irrelevant in a thread where you’re asked to simply list the things you didn’t like.
which I may add are now echoed all over the net so it’s not just me
There’s a lot of merit in this. I’ve noticed that the general sentiment at other forums like TheForce.net is not as positive about TFA, and the list of critiques I posted here I posted there, and people were far more receptive.
Interesting. I suspected that the demographic here, in a forum seemingly devoted to the OT, would be a bit more receptive to critiques of TFA. I am also surprised to have been called an “OT fanboy” on an OT forum. But, hey, stranger things happen all the time.
And let me not even go into how you guys tried to twist and bend the OT to make it seem as though they didn’t share some of the same flaws.
This is a flawed argument that’s been floating all over this thread. People are not applying any sort of logical discernment. Really, it’s just a false analogy. Folks just aren’t getting that it’s OK to stretch the imagination, but not OK to insult the intelligence. Yes, the OT leverages poetic license at points, but TFA turns poetic license into an all out license to kill.
It’s like this. Suppose you’re on the interstate and the speed limit is 70MPH. If you pass a state trooper going 75MPH, that trooper probably isn’t even going to look up from his paperwork. But now if you pass that trooper going 100MPH, you can bet your bottom dollar you’re getting a ticket.
That’s the difference between ANH & TESB and TFA, really. ANH and TESB exceed the speed limit a bit here and there. No biggie…you just give it a pass for the sake of the story or the fantasy. Heck, it may be so inconsequential, you don’t even notice you gave it a pass.
But TFA, on the other hand, not only completely disregards the speed limit, it mows down the speed limit sign while it’s at it.
And then people here are like, “How can you complain about TFA going 100MPH when TESB goes 75MPH?! You’re inconsistent! You’re a hypocrite! You’re an idiot! You’re bending over backwards!” Yada, yada, yada.
Now seriously, just for the sake of the discussion, consider the following:
Does Luke want to be found at all? If yes, why not just say so? If no, why are we searching for him? If the answer is, it’s a test, why concoct such an absurd test that costs so many innocent people their lives? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
And if it is a test, who is he testing? Leia? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
Why did Leia send an X-Wing pilot to retrieve Luke’s secret map? Why not send someone in disguise, like an intelligence agent? After all, an X-Wing sticks out like a sore thumb? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
Poe and Finn escape the villains by stealing a TIE fighter, which they were able to activate by simply pressing the “On” button. The TIE fighter is shot by the bad guys but then somehow crash lands without killing or even injuring either of the two occupants…AND it crash lands within walking distance of Rey’s settlement. How likely and plausible is that? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
After Poe and Finn crash land on Jakku, why did Poe leave Jakku without the map and BB-8? Retrieving the map was the very reason he was sent to Jakku in the first place, wasn’t it? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
What is the likelihood, the probability, and the plausibility that the Millenium Falcon, the main villain’s father famous ship, just so happens to be on Jakku…in flying condition…and requires no key, PIN, fingerprint swipe, or other security mechanism to start? It’s possible, yes? But what are the odds? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
What is the likelihood that Rey would know how to fly the Falcon? Especially so well? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
Why does Han insist on taking the fugitives to Maz Kanata? Why not just enter hyperspace and take the map and the urgent intel Finn knows directly to the Resistance planet? Why waste time on this pit stop? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
What is the likelihood and plausibility that Maz would have Luke’s original lightsaber, especially considering we just had to give this movie a major pass on the Millenium Falcon being on Rey’s home planet? One “Get Out of Jail Free” card is understandable…but two? In such a short span of the movie? Yes, it’s possbile Luke’s lightsaber got hung up on some equipment at Bespin, was found, and then somehow delivered to Maz, but how plausible is that, again especially considering all the “Get Out of Jail” we’ve already had to give this movie? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
Considering the fact that the villains had an exact description of BB-8 and knew it was exactly BB-8 they were searching for – and heroes knew that fact – why did they bring BB-8 into Maz’s bar that’s chock full of sketchy characters? Considering Han, at a minimum, is so street smart, isn’t it just logical he’d say, “Leave that droid here in the Falcon while we go visit Maz”? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
How plausible is it that Rey was able to use the Force so proficiently when she had not been trained? How was she able to decide to even attempt the Jedi Mind Trick when she had not even, at a minimum, seen someone else do it before? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
Why was the stormtrooper posted inside the holding cell? Considering Rey’s hands and feet were shackled to that device, why wasn’t he posted outside the cell, outside the closed, locked door? Isn’t that typically the way prisoners are confined? Guard places the prisoner inside the cell…guard steps out of the cell…guard locks the door…guard stands guard outside the door…? THIS IS BORDERLINE NITPICKY.
Why did Ren “pray” to Darth Vader’s helmet when Luke, Leia, and Han surely would have told Ren the story of how Darth Vader was redeemed? Ren is shown asking Darth Vader to show him the way to resist the light…but Darth Vader would be the worst person in the galaxy, living or dead, to ask for advice on that topic, wouldn’t he? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
Why was Rey able to fight so effectively with a lightsaber, especially after we not long before we had to give the movie a “Get Out of Jail Free” card for her being able to pilot the Millenium Falcon? What is the likelihood that this humble orphan would be able to fly the Falcon, do the Jedi Mind Trick, and fight so well with a lightsaber? THIS IS NOT A NITPICK.
Hahahahaha.
Honestly, you guys should go make a thread in the script/fanfiction forum where your discussion belongs, and let people with rational criticism have this thread. That way you’d be ignored just like you whine about wanting.
That’s not a bad idea! But I have an even better one!
What we can do is go ahead and make our fan film, then will post it here, and then you can come on and tell us how much you hate it and how stupid we are. Then we’ll use your ad hominem attacks, logic fallacies, and pseudo-intellectual, vain attempts at condescension to defend our movie!
What do you think? Pretty swell idea, right?
You can’t have that hate living inside of you. That leads to the Dark Side.
The Prequels, TFA, and the Thrawn Trilogy are the Dark Side.
You two should write a fan script. Seems to be the only healthy way to get it out of your system. 😉
Ha ha. Yes. And then we’ll make a fan film. Only problem is, I don’t think we could book Daisy Ridley. She is uber famous now.
Okay it lands in a melted state and Rey finds it on her scavenging travels,not realising what it is, repairs it and makes it more powerful and then becomes intrigued with the force and the backstories and realises she has a natural ability with the saber, yet to realise that she is indeed force sensitive.
Or she just finds it one day partially buried in the dirt. We don’t know whose it was. Some Jedi, maybe, who died in the Clone Wars, or something. Its origin is unknown. She finds it one day, and it changes her life.
Cheers , I ripped off Superman
No, not that one. The idea of Rey just finding a random lightsaber one day.
Bosk said:
I think I actually preferred the leaked idea that the opening shot was a light saber spinning in space and then landing in Jakku (Superman), where Rey is scavenging and notices the impact and goes to investigate.
I actually really like your idea – Rey is still of very humble origins, she’s scavenging one day, finds a lightsaber, ignites it. She’s heard the stories of the Jedi and the heroics of Luke Skywalker…she becomes intrigued…that, actually, has the makings of a really, really good story.
The saber ending on Jakku seems less likely than ending up in the hands of a barkeep. Maz gets a lot of strangers from all corners of the galaxy passing through her establishment. Someone could have sold her the saber, if only to pay off their tab.
See Bosk’s reply above yours.
I think it would have been a better idea to have Rey find the saber whilst scavenging junk, rather than the Maz scene which was purely a device to bring a saber into the narrative, Maz giving Rey the magical gift (transference).
Agree that would be better, but still too convenient. Even better would be that Rey finds a lightsaber while scavenging. Not Luke’s.
Why? Because it’s not explained in every detail while the First Order launches an attack?
No. Because it just is.
And “because it’s not explained in every detail…”?
How about because it’s not explained at all?!
If the tunnels intention was to throw everything out, why didn’t it end at the bottom of Cloud City? Why was it necessary to have another tunnel in the wall that opens conditionally? We don’t even know what triggered the hatch to open, was it Luke’s weight or was it just bad timing (just like it was bad timing that the trash compactor starts with our heros inside)?
A lot of discussion to skirt around the obvious: That Maz having Luke’s original lightsaber is silly.
What the hell are you talking about? I only quoted that because you were doing something similar to explain what Bespin was (which I didn’t argue with, by the way).
I quoted the official StarWars.com; you quoted a Wiki page.
Apparently you have a different copy of the film than anyone else in the world.
Good point! It certainly doesn’t make any sense to assume that any of those exhaust chutes would open up and the lightsaber would fall out.
You know what would be really, really cool?! What JJ should do next is have it such that Vader’s red lightsaber gets recovered by Ren! Since we never saw what actually happened to his red lightsaber, we certainly can’t just go on assuming that it got blown up when the second Death Star was destroyed.
I got it! Check this out! Oh, boy, JJ is going to totally rip off this idea! What happened was, when the Death Star blew up, Darth Vader’s lightsaber was shot out by the explosion, it tumbled through the atmosphere, and landed right by the Vader burn site. So when Ren showed up to retrieve Vader’s helmet, voila! He got two for the price of one! He got the helmet and Vader’s lightsaber!
Now if you’re saying, “Oh, Lizard! How could that be? If Ren had Vader’s lightsaber, he’d be using it, wouldn’t he?”
No! You see, that’s part of Ren’s backstory. We’ll maybe find out why Ren doesn’t use Vader’s lightsaber in episode IX.
Wow! The possibilities! We could also have it such that Ren finds Vader’s original bent wing TIE fighter! How cool would that be?! Oh! Oh! Oh! And then Finn will find Luke’s original X-Wing and Poe will find the Tantive IV! We can also have Rey find Leia’s white dress from ANH!
The possibilities! They should totally hire me as writer for the next films.