RogueLeader

I like the attempt at the subtitles! I think the direction you’re taking is definitely a clever way to try to improve or support what is already there in the film. I do wonder if the audience would be confused by the Stormtrooper calling him a janitor, since it isn’t really touched on again until the third act. The way I understand it, Finn was a First Order/Stormtrooper ensign who was assigned to maintenance duty until he was promoted by Kylo Ren for whatever reason. Before the First Order was in any kind of conflict, I imagine a lot of their child-soldiers were being used as labor, so the logic makes sense to me. I just wonder, to a first-time viewer, if these additions would be more confusing than clarifying, you know? Like, is there enough context yet that connects all these little details? Because you’re still left wondering why Ren promoted him.

I wonder if Kylo’s line, “The one from the village, FN-2187” could be changed since in this version of events, Kylo would’ve been familiar with Finn before the village attack. You’re obviously pretty limited by available dialogue, but there might be a way you can alter this line to also help support this idea you have.

As far as the dialogue you’ve written, I think it sounds really good though. I can imagine hearing it and it fitting well.

EDIT: Maybe he could say, “Ren should have left you with the trash, like the captain wanted.” since, “let you rot in the trash” might be more ambiguous, like they wanted to kill him or something.

MalàStrana said:

I missed when Star Wars (from 1977 to 2005) were serious movies without irony that break the fourth wall.

This is why I think studios listening to fans can sometimes be a problem. Kennedy, Iger and Abrams were probably reluctant to use George’s treatments because of how poorly fans received the prequels (yeah, people still hated the prequels as recently as 2012), so they wanted to go in a different direction. But sentiment has changed and fans apparently love George Lucas and the prequels now, so after Carrie passed away and they had to scrap Trevorrow’s script entirely (assuming) to rewrite the story without Carrie, Abrams and Kennedy may have seen this as an opportunity to work with George and reestablish some of his ideas in order to please the new fan consensus and add legitimacy to the trilogy in the eyes of detractors. Personally, I don’t know how much they really care about this, but I can see a number of reasons why they would want to consult with George. But from an optics perspective it definitely wouldn’t hurt them either, not the same way it would’ve been seen only seven years ago.

I’ve started wondering if resurrecting Palpatine might have been in George’s original treatments. There is one particular piece of concept art in the TFA book that shows Darth Talon posing with a dark, ethereal figure standing over her (pg. 27). I wonder how much the artists knew about this “Uber” character beyond the him/it being powerful in the dark side that and pulling the strings from the shadows. It could be similar to how I think the Jedi Killer might have always been Han and Leia’s son, but it was kept secret for sometime before they told the artists, which has led some people to speculate that young Solo and Jedi Killer being different characters at some point during development.

Maybe the Talon-character was a servant of Palpatine, and was ordered by him to seduce the son of Han and Leia (Seduction 001-005, pg. 35). If IX reveals that Snoke was somehow a pawn of Palpatine, then Snoke may have been the merger of the ‘Uber’ and ‘Seducer’ characters, since Snoke functioned like Talon by seducing young Solo to the dark side.

There is another piece called Jedi Killer Contemplation, with this quote from one concept artist, Alzmann. “This was back when the MacGuffin was the melted helmet of Vader…” (pg. 79)

There’s also several pieces of the Death Star II submerged underwater, which we know they are bringing back into IX. Regarding one piece, Ian McCaig says, “So when the adventure is over, Kira finds a hidden map inside the Emperor’s tower of the second Death Star. And the map tells you where the Jedi are and where Luke is hiding.” (pg. 34). While the MacGuffin clearly evolved by this point, I can’t help but wonder if the importance of Vader’s helmet and the site of the Emperor’s “death” may have played some role involving Palpatine himself.

So let’s say that Abrams, Johnson and Kennedy weren’t 100% sure about bringing back Palpatine when producing TFA and TLJ, if the idea was at least there from the beginning, in the form of George’s treatments, then that might be why she is saying it was in the plans from the start (even though they obviously decided to diverge from his treatments while developing TFA).

But would George actually bring back Palpatine? It isn’t impossible. Tom Veitch, the writer of the Dark Empire comic, said the original antagonist of the story was going to be a Vader imposter, but George himself had him change it to the clone of Palpatine. So clearly Palpatine’s resurrection wasn’t blasphemy to even the creator.

While clearly context has changed significantly from when he first had the idea of Episodes 7-9, before 6 was released, he had the idea of 6 culminating in just a confrontation with Vader, and 7-9 being about Luke finding his long-lost sister and finally confronting the Emperor in Episode IX. It makes me think of early drafts of Star Wars, where the climax was reminiscent of ROTJ, where natives (Wookiees) helped play a role in destroying the Death Star. George realized it was too much for one movie, and while not entirely accurate, I think this is where George says he split the one movie into three movies. But instead of inventing a new climax for the third movie, he brought back the natives idea, as well as another Death Star that must be destroyed. So if this is George’s idea, he’s basically done the same thing, but with Palpatine.

Abrams has said they consulted George for this film, which gives some credence to the idea that bringing back Palpatine is somehow related to Lucas. Also, if bringing back Palpatine is an idea that came from George himself, it would give legitimacy to this plot point that could be controversial to some fans. It wouldn’t be the first time fans have been perplexed by George’s ideas (midichlorians, Ahsoka Tano, etc.), but if the man who invented the Chosen One prophecy doesn’t think resurrecting the last Sith undermines that idea, then I think some fans who feel skeptical are more likely to eventually accept it.

I really like her videos, and I think it is a good example of an interesting perspective on the films that we typically don’t see on this forum!

ChainsawAsh said:

RogueLeader said:

That vid actually makes me think of something that would’ve been in Petrovelly’s Star Wars Remastered project.

Did you see the username of the video’s uploader?

Lol. No wonder it looked familiar. 😅

But I do agree that even just replicating the original shots with new CG shots with X-Wing models with unique markings would be a great update for the film.

That vid actually makes me think of something that would’ve been in Petrovelly’s Star Wars Remastered project.

Yeah, I think one of the most common hopes I see people have is that Anakin’s Force ghost will show up. I know some people wouldn’t want that, but I think if Anakin, as a Force ghost, somehow took part in purging the last remnants of Sidious from the galaxy, it would help keep that prophecy/story element from George in tact.

It would actually make a lot of sense. If Sidious was in a corporeal form, and can’t physically be destroyed, it would present a great challenge for Rey, whose physicality is one of her strengths. If she was shown to struggle to tap into her spiritual side throughout the whole movie, and then at the climax she completely let’s go of her own fears and puts all of her faith in the Force, maybe that would be the way she has to defeat Sidious.

I’m going to ramble on somewhat of a theory regarding Force ghosts. In ESB, Obi-Wan tells Luke that he can’t interfere in his confrontation with the Vader, but maybe that is because someone on the spiritual plane can’t physically harm with someone on the physical plane, and vice versa.

I also think it is possible that living Force users have to act as conduits for Force ghosts to manifest themselves, so Force ghosts can’t just appear on their own alone. So imagine Rey being unable destroy the spirit of Palpatine on her own, and in her most hopeless moment, she finally let’s the Force flow through her completely, and suddenly the Force ghosts of Luke, Leia, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon (and Ahsoka?) appear and join forces to try and purge Palpatine’s spirit. Then finally, Anakin appears and delivers the final blow, destroying the last remnants of the last Sith Lord from galaxy.

I know I’m just setting myself up for disappointment, but it could be a good way to tie into Rey’s characterization, make the Force ghost ability that Qui-Gon apparently discovered in Episode I suddenly very important to the overall narrative in Episode IX, and also maintain Anakin’s role as Chosen One.

I think Hal and I both have expressed some concern about it.

I know early on there was a lot of speculation regarding who Matt Smith was/is going to play, because it seemed he was in the movie, then he wasn’t. He still might be, but maybe it is still heavily guarded.

I know there were rumors that he might’ve played a young, rejuvenated Palpatine. I don’t think I’m the only one that has had this theory, but I think it is possible that in an earlier version of the film, Matt Smith played a Sith acolyte that allowed the spirit of Palpatine to possess him, and this would’ve been the person Rey and Kylo would’ve fought in the climax of the film. Maybe we would’ve seen McDiarmid briefly, but only as a spirit that was attached to some kind of object or phylactery, possibly Vader’s helmet. But after the warm reception McDiarmid received at Celebration, they might’ve have changed that to give Ian more screen time, and thus now he appears physically throughout the whole film without a satisfying explanation for those of us who care to know how.

This might be a stretch, but I don’t think it is impossible either. Alternatively, maybe Palpatine was only in physical form, and Matt Smith just played his rejuvenated self, but that was changed in reshoots for the reasons stated above.

I would have preferred the Sith spirit angle, because at least that makes some sense. Hell, at this point I wouldn’t be too upset if they went full-on Dark Empire and said it was a clone vessel. I just don’t understand how Palpatine could have physically survived being thrown down a reactor shaft and then the Death Star’s destruction.

Another possibility (that I’m 90% sure wouldn’t be explained in the film itself) could be that Palpatine was somehow saved by someone who was able to pull him into the World Between Worlds that Rebels introduced. Ahsoka was saved by Ezra in a similar manner, so it’s possible the same thing happened to Palpatine, and since then he has been in hiding in the Unknown Regions, becoming older and weaker, but biding his time for the right moment to return. It feels pretty convoluted to me, but to not even give a semblance of an explanation in the film would be pretty head-scratching to me.

Awesome, I didn’t know this. Thanks, Jay!

Mocata said:

“R2, you’re facing the wrong direction… Can you turn, just, never mind let’s just take the picture”

Do you think the artist thought the back of R2 was actually the front, or what? Artistic choice?

Thanks, Hal. I’m sure there will be a way it can be spun to make sense narratively, but its effectiveness won’t be clear until we actually see how exactly the movie pulls it off.

On an unrelated note, I was trying to get cleaner audio of C-3PO saying his line from the trailer, but I’m having trouble with it. Does anyone think they could do a better job of it?
I do know in this TV spot, 3PO actually says, “I’m taking one last look, at my friends.”

Hal 9000 said:

Imagine a film set in post-Nazi Germany that asks the question, “How do the people affected by Hitler heal and how can we reconcile with one another after having been so polarized?”

Now imagine a film in which a revived cyber-zombie Hitler threatens world domination.

I’m hoping this comparison doesn’t end up applying to IX, but that’s the sort of thing that concerns me.

It seems like Palpatine’s return is on your mind as much as it is on mine. This is also my concern.

I was hoping IX would focus completely on Kylo Ren, the Knights of Ren, and the First Order as the villains of the film, and it would focus on the idea of reunification, and if it is possible for two divided sides to come back together through peace rather the total destruction of the enemy. This would have set it apart from ROTJ by showing why the Sequel Trilogy was a necessary end to this saga about war.
Kylo Ren’s redemption, Stormtrooper liberation, there were a few plot threads that could’ve led down this path.

We might just have to look at Sidious as more as a symbol for evil, or the shadow-self, rather than a metaphor for specific evil people. Mecha-hitler will never be a thing, presumably, but there have been and will be people who will embody the evil that Hitler was. You could just see it as an extension of the idea of fascism returning to the world.

I don’t think that is necessary. 3PO looks different from how he looked when he saw him over twenty years ago, and he 3PO never identifies himself to Owen. The only thing you can say they have in common is their voice. Maybe the protocol droid on Bespin that 3PO runs into could also have Anthony Daniels’ voice, implying that is a common protocol droid voice.

I understand why George made that change, but from my understanding, people felt the additional dialogue just made things more confusing. The opening crawl and Vader’s actions at the beginning of the film, demonstrate that he already has a personal obsession with finding Luke, which implies he already knows who he really is. Having Vader find out during the movie seems to contradict that. Is he now just obsessed with find Luke because he destroyed the Death Star and he wants revenge?

You could argue Vader is feigning surprise, but already knows and pretends because he is planning to use Luke to help him usurp the Emperor, but it arguably just makes things more complicated.

Yeah, that is a good point! So you would have BB-8 sitting outside Rey’s home, then you would pan up to the stars, maybe some kind of dissolve or something to the opening shot with the moon, star destroyer passes over, transports fly out and BB-8 sees them?

EDIT: What if Rey could somehow see the Star Destroyer looming over the moon while she was sitting outside at night? It could be like how in the early cuts of ANH, Luke entered the story when he saw the battle from space, before the audience really knew his place in the story. Though I guess that was cut for a reason.

If you can’t get flashback idea to work, here’s an idea for a non-flashback way to cut it.

So you’re on the wide shot of Rey’s AT-AT home, and then it dissolves into a night version of that same shot with some nighttime ambience. The ambience continues into the next shot, which can be the opening shot of the star destroyer passing in front of the moon, movie continues.

Then when you cut back to Rey, you could cut together a very quick montage of her going through her daily routine again. Shot of Rey speeding toward Niima Outpost (maybe use shot from first teaser), shot of Unkar slamming down another quarter portion, an altered shot of Rey scratching another day on her wall, her eating outside (or maybe just her sitting quietly with the helmet on). This is when she hears BB-8. No nighttime scene here, and then you cut back to wherever the First Order plot is at this point.

Hal 9000 said:

RogueLeader said:

I still think it’d be cool way to open your edit just to set it apart more, but how do you think you make it clear that it was a flashback that BB-8 was having?

A harp riff, obviously.

Lol. Or, BB-8 could beep a little with subtitles that say, “You’re probably wondering how I got here.” then the movie rewinds like an old VHS tape back to the opening scene.

I still think it’d be cool way to open your edit just to set it apart more, but how do you think you make it clear that it was a flashback that BB-8 was having?

Some edits have actually done this, but it’s sort of like we said, it seems like the first time we see him at all should be when he enters Jabba palace.

ziggyonice said:

Visually, I didn’t like the shot of Chewie, Poe, and rando Resistance member that interrupts BB-8 rolling forward. It just felt choppy or too quick or something. Would the shot of Rey looking at the map be a better fit here? Or would that be too awkward after having seen her in the Luke/dream sequence?

I actually felt this as well.

An idea for Bib’s dialogue.

3PO: We bring a message for your master, Jabba the Hutt.

Bib: De Jabba wanga?

R2 beeps. Cut to wide shot of droids, cut 3PO mentioning gift. Keep R2 beeping, cut to a close up shot of R2 beeping. Even add a reaction shot of a Gamorrean if you wanted it to last longer, but the idea is R2 is telling Bib the message, so R2 needs to beep a little longer than usual.

Bib: Ne Jabba no bodda. Jabba won’t bargain.

Bib: Eez ai ota. He has what he wants

Bib: Kiz ata u mudi. But we do need droids…

Bib: Me chadda so gudi. So we’ll accept this gift!

C-3PO: Gift? What gift?

Bib: Lu cha! Take them!

[Insert C-3PO panicky dialogue here]

These are some great thoughts, Dom!

Honestly, I think ROTJ is in this weird place between being a part of the “holy” trilogy, but also being considered the weakest of three. Yes, you could edit it dramatically, and it has been before, but imo I feel like there isn’t really a definitive fan edit of ROTJ, just a few good ones that introduce some cool ideas. How much can you alter without something feeling missing?

In this case, I think all of these different options just have to be tested, and see what still feels coherent, or seamless, even.

So, you’re suggesting opening with the Emperor scene, which honestly is a solid idea. I think the one think you lose is a slightly ominous opening for Vader, since the first time we see him in this version of events would just be in a wide shot of him kneeling down (unless you inserted a new first shot of him somehow). I like your IX related idea by the way! We definitely need to keep that in mind.

I think Bib Fortuna speaks enough in this scene to where you can add enough subtitles to provide enough context for what is happening.

I think the droid torture room could still be kept so we can know that 3PO and R2 have been given new jobs within the Palace.

You could easily add an insert of Han frozen in carbonite in the Lapti nek scene, but you actually get glimpses of him already in it. But still, I think an extra shot would make that clear (I don’t think anyone would complain if you cut out an extra Sly Snootles shot). At first I also felt it would be a scene where nothing happens with that the Chewbacca/Boushh scene, but you can transition it in a way to where it feels like it leads right into Leia sneaking into the Palace. And it still functions as an introduction to Jabba’s character through 3PO’s point of view.

Originally this sequence is the beginning of the Bounty for a Wookiee scene, but you instead could cut to the sunset Palace establishing shot, maybe still hearing some muffled laughter and screams. I think it would be cool if you turned this into a night shot, as well.

You could then wipe to scene where Boushh sneaks into the main palace room. Show Leia freeing Han, all that jazz. Leia and Han get captured. Han hears snarling in his cell and it turns out to be Chewbacca! This being Chewie’s introduction is an interesting idea.
(Also, what if Jabba was hiding behind a holographic wall rather than just some curtains?)

If you cut the first Boushh scene, I think Leia & Wicket should be kept, at the very least to not make this film less than two hours long.
The deleted scenes would be cool to add, but it just seem infeasible to add them seamlessly. And I think Luke’s introduction in the film is great as-is, and putting Dagobah stuff earlier would just ruin that mystique.

Good idea putting the first throne room scene in place of where the Emeror’s first scene originally was. I also think graphics could be added to those weirdly blank view screens that could be relevant to some potential ST-foreshadowing as well, but not sure what exactly that could be yet.

Again, I feel this is something you just gotta experiment with. Try it without the first Boushh scene, and try it with it, then compare and see which works better. I get why you are suggesting that though. I would like to see without it, but if keeping felt necessary you could just cut out 3PO mentioning Chewbacca earlier in the film.

I’m going to think about what Bib could potentially say to them in that first scene.

Sort of unrelated but regarding Leia in ROTJ, I think I’ve seen this suggestion before, but it would be interesting if Boushh had some kind of breathing sound effect that sort of made you think of Darth Vader. Like a subtle foreshadowing to their relation. Even a very slight, choking sound for when Leia strangles Jabba to death. Like father like daughter.

Really? I like the Boushh scenes. So the first time you see Boushh/Leia, she’d just be sneaking into Jabba’s palace at night?

As far removing Luke’s message, i’d probably play around with potential subtitle options for Bib and/or Jabba, depending on how far the droids get. Because I could see them reaching Jabba and him rejecting them there.

I wonder if that scene with Bib could end early, before they tell Bib they have to tell Jabba directly. So when they enter the main palace and Bib whispers in his ear, maybe he is telling Jabba what they said. Then Jabba could respond with his refusal.

Maybe after Bib whispers in his ear, Jabba can ask, “Who is your master?”

C-3PO: Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight.

Bib: [Huttese jibberish] Heh, he’s no Jedi.

Jabba: The Jedi are all dead. Captain Solo belongs to me now, and for this insult so do you…

EDIT: Or, “I will not bargain with a false Jedi…”