RogueLeader

Hal 9000 said:

Imagine a film set in post-Nazi Germany that asks the question, “How do the people affected by Hitler heal and how can we reconcile with one another after having been so polarized?”

Now imagine a film in which a revived cyber-zombie Hitler threatens world domination.

I’m hoping this comparison doesn’t end up applying to IX, but that’s the sort of thing that concerns me.

It seems like Palpatine’s return is on your mind as much as it is on mine. This is also my concern.

I was hoping IX would focus completely on Kylo Ren, the Knights of Ren, and the First Order as the villains of the film, and it would focus on the idea of reunification, and if it is possible for two divided sides to come back together through peace rather the total destruction of the enemy. This would have set it apart from ROTJ by showing why the Sequel Trilogy was a necessary end to this saga about war.
Kylo Ren’s redemption, Stormtrooper liberation, there were a few plot threads that could’ve led down this path.

We might just have to look at Sidious as more as a symbol for evil, or the shadow-self, rather than a metaphor for specific evil people. Mecha-hitler will never be a thing, presumably, but there have been and will be people who will embody the evil that Hitler was. You could just see it as an extension of the idea of fascism returning to the world.

I don’t think that is necessary. 3PO looks different from how he looked when he saw him over twenty years ago, and he 3PO never identifies himself to Owen. The only thing you can say they have in common is their voice. Maybe the protocol droid on Bespin that 3PO runs into could also have Anthony Daniels’ voice, implying that is a common protocol droid voice.

I understand why George made that change, but from my understanding, people felt the additional dialogue just made things more confusing. The opening crawl and Vader’s actions at the beginning of the film, demonstrate that he already has a personal obsession with finding Luke, which implies he already knows who he really is. Having Vader find out during the movie seems to contradict that. Is he now just obsessed with find Luke because he destroyed the Death Star and he wants revenge?

You could argue Vader is feigning surprise, but already knows and pretends because he is planning to use Luke to help him usurp the Emperor, but it arguably just makes things more complicated.

Yeah, that is a good point! So you would have BB-8 sitting outside Rey’s home, then you would pan up to the stars, maybe some kind of dissolve or something to the opening shot with the moon, star destroyer passes over, transports fly out and BB-8 sees them?

EDIT: What if Rey could somehow see the Star Destroyer looming over the moon while she was sitting outside at night? It could be like how in the early cuts of ANH, Luke entered the story when he saw the battle from space, before the audience really knew his place in the story. Though I guess that was cut for a reason.

If you can’t get flashback idea to work, here’s an idea for a non-flashback way to cut it.

So you’re on the wide shot of Rey’s AT-AT home, and then it dissolves into a night version of that same shot with some nighttime ambience. The ambience continues into the next shot, which can be the opening shot of the star destroyer passing in front of the moon, movie continues.

Then when you cut back to Rey, you could cut together a very quick montage of her going through her daily routine again. Shot of Rey speeding toward Niima Outpost (maybe use shot from first teaser), shot of Unkar slamming down another quarter portion, an altered shot of Rey scratching another day on her wall, her eating outside (or maybe just her sitting quietly with the helmet on). This is when she hears BB-8. No nighttime scene here, and then you cut back to wherever the First Order plot is at this point.

Hal 9000 said:

RogueLeader said:

I still think it’d be cool way to open your edit just to set it apart more, but how do you think you make it clear that it was a flashback that BB-8 was having?

A harp riff, obviously.

Lol. Or, BB-8 could beep a little with subtitles that say, “You’re probably wondering how I got here.” then the movie rewinds like an old VHS tape back to the opening scene.

I still think it’d be cool way to open your edit just to set it apart more, but how do you think you make it clear that it was a flashback that BB-8 was having?

Some edits have actually done this, but it’s sort of like we said, it seems like the first time we see him at all should be when he enters Jabba palace.

ziggyonice said:

Visually, I didn’t like the shot of Chewie, Poe, and rando Resistance member that interrupts BB-8 rolling forward. It just felt choppy or too quick or something. Would the shot of Rey looking at the map be a better fit here? Or would that be too awkward after having seen her in the Luke/dream sequence?

I actually felt this as well.

An idea for Bib’s dialogue.

3PO: We bring a message for your master, Jabba the Hutt.

Bib: De Jabba wanga?

R2 beeps. Cut to wide shot of droids, cut 3PO mentioning gift. Keep R2 beeping, cut to a close up shot of R2 beeping. Even add a reaction shot of a Gamorrean if you wanted it to last longer, but the idea is R2 is telling Bib the message, so R2 needs to beep a little longer than usual.

Bib: Ne Jabba no bodda. Jabba won’t bargain.

Bib: Eez ai ota. He has what he wants

Bib: Kiz ata u mudi. But we do need droids…

Bib: Me chadda so gudi. So we’ll accept this gift!

C-3PO: Gift? What gift?

Bib: Lu cha! Take them!

[Insert C-3PO panicky dialogue here]

These are some great thoughts, Dom!

Honestly, I think ROTJ is in this weird place between being a part of the “holy” trilogy, but also being considered the weakest of three. Yes, you could edit it dramatically, and it has been before, but imo I feel like there isn’t really a definitive fan edit of ROTJ, just a few good ones that introduce some cool ideas. How much can you alter without something feeling missing?

In this case, I think all of these different options just have to be tested, and see what still feels coherent, or seamless, even.

So, you’re suggesting opening with the Emperor scene, which honestly is a solid idea. I think the one think you lose is a slightly ominous opening for Vader, since the first time we see him in this version of events would just be in a wide shot of him kneeling down (unless you inserted a new first shot of him somehow). I like your IX related idea by the way! We definitely need to keep that in mind.

I think Bib Fortuna speaks enough in this scene to where you can add enough subtitles to provide enough context for what is happening.

I think the droid torture room could still be kept so we can know that 3PO and R2 have been given new jobs within the Palace.

You could easily add an insert of Han frozen in carbonite in the Lapti nek scene, but you actually get glimpses of him already in it. But still, I think an extra shot would make that clear (I don’t think anyone would complain if you cut out an extra Sly Snootles shot). At first I also felt it would be a scene where nothing happens with that the Chewbacca/Boushh scene, but you can transition it in a way to where it feels like it leads right into Leia sneaking into the Palace. And it still functions as an introduction to Jabba’s character through 3PO’s point of view.

Originally this sequence is the beginning of the Bounty for a Wookiee scene, but you instead could cut to the sunset Palace establishing shot, maybe still hearing some muffled laughter and screams. I think it would be cool if you turned this into a night shot, as well.

You could then wipe to scene where Boushh sneaks into the main palace room. Show Leia freeing Han, all that jazz. Leia and Han get captured. Han hears snarling in his cell and it turns out to be Chewbacca! This being Chewie’s introduction is an interesting idea.
(Also, what if Jabba was hiding behind a holographic wall rather than just some curtains?)

If you cut the first Boushh scene, I think Leia & Wicket should be kept, at the very least to not make this film less than two hours long.
The deleted scenes would be cool to add, but it just seem infeasible to add them seamlessly. And I think Luke’s introduction in the film is great as-is, and putting Dagobah stuff earlier would just ruin that mystique.

Good idea putting the first throne room scene in place of where the Emeror’s first scene originally was. I also think graphics could be added to those weirdly blank view screens that could be relevant to some potential ST-foreshadowing as well, but not sure what exactly that could be yet.

Again, I feel this is something you just gotta experiment with. Try it without the first Boushh scene, and try it with it, then compare and see which works better. I get why you are suggesting that though. I would like to see without it, but if keeping felt necessary you could just cut out 3PO mentioning Chewbacca earlier in the film.

I’m going to think about what Bib could potentially say to them in that first scene.

Sort of unrelated but regarding Leia in ROTJ, I think I’ve seen this suggestion before, but it would be interesting if Boushh had some kind of breathing sound effect that sort of made you think of Darth Vader. Like a subtle foreshadowing to their relation. Even a very slight, choking sound for when Leia strangles Jabba to death. Like father like daughter.

Really? I like the Boushh scenes. So the first time you see Boushh/Leia, she’d just be sneaking into Jabba’s palace at night?

As far removing Luke’s message, i’d probably play around with potential subtitle options for Bib and/or Jabba, depending on how far the droids get. Because I could see them reaching Jabba and him rejecting them there.

I wonder if that scene with Bib could end early, before they tell Bib they have to tell Jabba directly. So when they enter the main palace and Bib whispers in his ear, maybe he is telling Jabba what they said. Then Jabba could respond with his refusal.

Maybe after Bib whispers in his ear, Jabba can ask, “Who is your master?”

C-3PO: Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight.

Bib: [Huttese jibberish] Heh, he’s no Jedi.

Jabba: The Jedi are all dead. Captain Solo belongs to me now, and for this insult so do you…

EDIT: Or, “I will not bargain with a false Jedi…”

I might try to make an example later and see what it might look like.

If that doesn’t work or seems too different, another option could be to remove a few segmented panels out of the dish itself, which might achieve a more subtle change that it could still make it feel incomplete. Although it might be less effective than completely removing the dish, it’s a potential middle ground.

Regarding the Luke hologram, I think how you handle it sort of depends on your interpretation of Luke’s plan. Do you want to keep the fact that Luke gifted the droids to Jabba, since it implies he wanted to get R2 in there? Or maybe he was betting on Jabba just keeping the droids for himself.

Could the message just be R2 beeping a bit to them (maybe with 3PO chiming in with surprise that they’re the gift, rather than the hologram. Then, you could add/change Jabba and Bib’s subtitles to provide the context: Luke wants to bargain for Solo’s life and he is gifting the droid’s as a token of good will.

Interesting ideas! I had never thought about that but that would make it more surprising if the laser dish didn’t even look complete.

I was trying to think of what could fill its place, and after some googling I stumbled across this art station post from a concept designer who helped model the Death Star in Rogue One.

Maybe something like this could fill that gap instead. The one thing I like about this idea is that it doesn’t really take away from the Death Star II’s iconic silhouette, and instead it could actually add to its ‘incomplete’ look, as well as differentiate it more from the first Death Star’s design.

Are you wanting to remove Luke’s hologram in order to save our first look at him for when he actually appears later in the film?

I’m excited about IX but tbh I’d definitely be glancing a lot from another table too.

Looking good! Your music transitions are seriously seamless, especially how you go back out of the TLJ piece back into the TFA piece, very nice. I think you could pull off something similar with the shot of Leia reacting to Han’s death earlier in the film if you found two pieces that worked well together.

Did you add a guassian blur effect to Luke? I liked it more after rewatching the clip a little bit it initially stuck out to me. It felt a little noticeable, but subsequently it felt as if Luke was almost appearing on the cliff’s edge, which is kinda cool, and I’m guessing you were sort of going for that. What you could make him come into focus slower, I don’t know if he is already coming into focus as soon as the shot starts or only the last second or two. Ehh, anyway it’s just my first impression. Nitpicky really.

Also, I noticed that the fade-to-white sort of fades back in to Luke barely for just like a frame or two before it completes fades back onto the Resistance.

Anyway, I’m glad you made this change!

Honestly I don’t think it is necessary! I don’t think Padmé has to say it for us to know he misses his mother. I think the way you’ve cut it is great as-is.

Yes! This is so much better. I honestly think the original dialogue makes little sense anyway.

Ani: I care for you too, but I…

Padmé: You miss your mother.

What? You can’t care for one person and miss another person at the same time? It’s just a confusing thing to say.

Vladius said:

I think you’re right unfortunately, that cuts out most of the best parts of ROTS.

I agree, and like I said, I’m fine with ROTS telling that story, but from a fan-editing perspective, it would be interesting to see if such a thought experiment was actually possible.

BedeHistory731 said:

I: You mention the idea of making Obi-Wan a full-fledged knight - I think that you can make the element of doubt work through redubbing the council to hint that they’re aware of Obi-Wan’s failure with “Vader” and are reluctant for him to teach again. Heck, Maul/“Vader” could be evidence that “too old” apprentices go bad. It would be Qui-Gon vouching for his former pupil instead.

Good thoughts, Bede! I don’t have many specific ideas yet for TPM redubbings, but I think there is a lot of potential for some solid ideas, like you mentioned. I’ll have to rewatch some of those scenes again!

II: I’m not sure what exactly you’d cut from the Anakin stuff on Tatooine (easing PT-OT inconsistencies. It would likely depend on what you do with TPM.

II: It is really hard to change much about TPM to help with the Lars stuff. The simplest idea I have so far is to imply Anakin has made trips back to Tatooine to visit his mother inbetween films. So when they go to Tatooine, they go straight to the Lars homestead. 3PO will immediately recognize Anakin instead of thinking he is a stranger. You then cut all the introductions, and go straight to their conversation at the dinner table. Maybe it would confuse people at first, but I think people could pick up on context that Anakin actually may have gone back and freed his mom like he said, and she married a moisture farmer. Since Anakin might actually have some kind of relationship with Owen and Beru now, Anakin’s line, “These are good people, you’ll be safe with them” actually makes more sense. Maybe this would contradict with the Jedi’s rules of attachment, but I’m sure something could be worked out.

III: I would suggest showing Grievous or Palpatine looking at a bacta tank at some point. If it’s clouded enough to hide the person inside it, you can imply that it’s either the apprentice or Grievous’ empty tank. That way, it keeps up the mystery. I like the idea of calling both Dooku and Grievous “Darth Tyranus” and Maul/Anakin “Darth Vader.” It does prove to be an issue with the “Rule of Two,” but removing said rule really isn’t a problem for editing (compared to the redubbing and some visual changes).

III: Why do you think showing the empty tank preserves the mystery more than just seeing the cloudy silhouette of a figure inside? In my mind you would cut the shots of the tank draining, so we don’t know if the figure is human or alien. Sorry if I misunderstood you!

JEDIT: Perhaps Mace goes to face Palpatine, cutting to Anakin’s flight to the office once we see Palpatine draw his lightsaber. We keep the ruminations scene in, as it’s an important emotional beat.

Are you saying keep Anakin going back to Palpatine’s office? I think it is important that the last place we see Anakin is in the temple.

Thanks for your reply!

I didn’t even think about the lightsaber… Maybe that shot where Obi-Wan bends down to look at the dead Jedi, you could add Anakin’s saber on the ground there?

TL;DR towards the end of the post.

I’ve been stressed out lately and too busy to really type this out, but I finally got some time so I wanted to share some edit thoughts I’ve been having. So just consider this a rambling essay on…

“Saving the Reveal”

It seems like an age old question regarding some prequel edits is if the reveal of Anakin=Vader should be saved, since laypeople will assume they should watch these films in chronological order. Personally, I think the best way to deal with this problem is to tell people to just watch the films in release order. I like that ROTS explores Anakin’s fall, so I never felt it was a mistake to show it in the film. [Alternatively, I think watching ROTS in-between ESB and ROTJ as a sort of a flashback standalone film is also a simple way handle the issue. I think a ROTS edit that removes any references to TPM and AOTC, and keeps contradictions with the OT to a minimum would be a great project as well.] But, for curiosity’s sake, I wanted to brainstorm on ways the prequels can actually be changed to “Save the Reveal”, and see if there’s anything left of the film after all that cutting that would still make it worth watching.

Unfortunately, trying to save the reveal, but keep all three prequels relatively in-tact leaves you very little substance in ROTS, since that film is all about Anakin’s fall. I think many people who have taken the “Save the Reveal” approach have kept Anakin turning to the dark side, but removed him being called “Darth Vader”, and kept his survival ambiguous. While this does work, I think it still has it cons. Mainly, assuming the films are being viewed in chronological order, a layperson would still know Obi-Wan is lying to Luke, and that Luke’s father turned to the dark side. I kind of think this defeats the purpose of wanting to edit the prequels to save that reveal in ESB in the first place. Sure, maybe the audience might think Vader might say ”Obi-Wan killed your father”, like cast and crew, save for a select few, actually thought the twist was back when they made ESB, but I still don’t think the impact would be as hard-hitting as if the audience thought Anakin was actually killed by Darth Vader and Obi-Wan was telling the truth. Again, there are merits to this approach (keeping the bulk of the plot in-tact), but it has its drawbacks (audience still knows Obi-Wan is lying to Luke).

How to make this possible has been discussed ad nauseam on here, especially this thread in particular, but I wanted to take another stab at it just for the hell of it.

A lot of the ideas I’ve seen (and have had myself) have been rather ambitious, with a lot of hypothetical new shots or scenes that would need to be filmed. This idea tries to avoid any of that. I’m going to go over major changes in the three films that would be necessary to make it work.

The Phantom Menace

The biggest thing I think that would need to be changed in Episode I is to have Obi-Wan be a full-fledged Jedi Knight rather than Qui-Gon’s apprentice. Why? Because we want to set up that Maul was Obi-Wan’s first student that fell to the dark side. This would require some major changes to how the Jedi refer to Maul as a “mystery attacker”. Maybe Yoda or a Jedi offscreen can refer to the attacker as “your old Padawan” when speaking to Obi-Wan. Maybe they don’t know who he is until the duel at the end of the film. OS dialogue could be added where Maul calls Obi-Wan his old master (potentially taken from Sam Witwer’s Maul dialogue or have Maul redubbed. If you replaced Sidious’ hologram with Maul in some scenes, you could also add dialogue here where Maul could refer to Obi-Wan as his former master.) So Maul kills Obi-Wan’s friend/potential former master, they have their confrontation, and Obi-Wan knocks his former student down a pit in two pieces, presumably dead.

Does Obi seem a little young to have been a master? Maybe, but I don’t think it is a deal breaker, and I think it could be spun in an interesting way. Obi-Wan confronting his fallen apprentice, and then getting a second chance with Anakin. I would love to hear more ideas about how this could be work.

Attack of the Clones

I think there are a lot of changes that could be made even unrelated to reveal to decrease PT-OT contradictions, like the Skywalker-Lars relationship, but just for this approach I think there are only one or two key points. First, you could make changes throughout the film to make Anakin less creepy and #dark #edgy. Some darkness could be kept so Anakin=Vader makes sense in retrospect, but we don’t want it to be as blatant.

The most important, and radical, idea I have for this is the inclusion of one new scene. At the end of the film, you could insert a truncated version of Vader in the bacta tank from Rogue One. Maybe attached to the end of the “war has begun” scene with Sidious and Dooku, when they leave the hanger, a hooded figure (Sidious), and possibly Dooku, would enter this room. Sidious would look up at the tank and say something along the lines of, “they will be no match for you”, and just as the we start getting a glimpse of this mystery figure, we cut away to the next scene.

So now the viewer would end the film wondering who that person was. At this point, I would want them to think it is Maul, but it is never explicitly stated. I also know many people like the idea of having Dooku being a rogue Jedi rather than a Sith, but I think it would be important to keep that for reasons I’ll mention later.

Revenge of the Sith

So ROTS would start out mostly the same, with the climatic battle of Coruscant and the introduction of the cyborg, General Grievous. Was this the person we saw in the bacta tank?

After Dooku’s death, when Grievous reports to Sidious and Sidious mentions getting a new apprentice, it brings the audience back to wondering if the bacta tank figure actually was Maul.

I think Act 2 of the film could remain pretty in-tact. The last time we see Anakin in ROTS is either the Jedi hangar scene with Windu or the ruminations scene, but we don’t see him leave the Council chambers. The music in the scene where Anakin discovers Plapatine is a Sith could be used to make Anakin’s decision to turn Palpatine over to the Council more like this was his big character moment in the movie. I like the rumination scene, but I’m not sure if keeping it would be too much. I think Anakin still battling with his loyalties and the dark side is still important, but it should seem like Anakin made his decision and he seemingly died for it.

So when we get to the brief march on the Jedi Temple sequence, we will cut the closer up shot of Anakin, and the darken the robes and obscure the hooded face of the figure leading the troopers. I think more changes could be made to the make the figure more ambiguous as well, but this might be enough.

Order 66 happens, yada yada. The entirety of Mustafar would be cut from the film. Because the climatic battle is cut from the film, I would actually recommend keeping the Yoda vs Sidious duel and let that be treated as the big final battle of the film. I know saber-wielding Yoda and Sidious seem to contradict their portrayals in the OT, but I think this sacrifice could be made in order to preserve the reveal and not have the film feel totally incomplete.

My ideas are currently vague regarding how to deal with Obi-Wan and Padme in Act 3 of the film. You could still have Obi-Wan look at the security hologram, but cut it in a way so we can’t see what he is seeing. Obi-Wan asks Yoda to send him to kill the Emperor, but Yoda says he isn’t strong enough. He could end the scene saying, “The boy you trained, gone he is, destroyed by Darth Vader.” I think you would cut the scene of Obi-Wan going to see Padme, and when Yoda fails to defeat the Emperor, have everyone leave Coruscant together on the Tantive III/IV. Maybe you could splice some shots together of Padme and Obi-Wan looking miserable on the ship (taken from when they were sitting in the Padme’s ship in different scenes). At this point, the camera can be on Padme, and Obi-Wan can ask, “Anakin is [was] the father, isn’t he?”. Padme doesn’t answer, then cut back to Obi-Wan rubbing his face. Just an idea, and I’m not 100% solid how you could handle this part of the film.

Eventually they land on Polis Massa, Padme has the babies (or baby, if you are also trying to keep that secret). I think this issue highlights just how it is almost impossible to have satisfying prequels and also save all of these secrets. If you don’t show Padme having a second baby at all, and then it turns out Luke has a twin sister in ROTJ, you’d be like, “What? They never showed Padme having two babies?!”
Alternatively, you could show a second child being born, but they’re never named. You could include the scene of Padme surviving, like in Hal’s ROTS, but it would probably be smart to change music to something other than Leia’s theme.

Another change, while not necessary, that could be helpful, would be to recolor/redub C-3PO and R2-D2 in order to make them different droids. This would alleviate some continuity issues as well as allowing some dialogue to be created that the new protocol droid can say that could help clarify story changes that the edits make.

Summary

TL;DR: So for this idea, there are basically three major edits necessary for preserving the Vader twist:

1. In TPM, make Maul Obi-Wan’s fallen apprentice.
2. In AOTC, add a new scene of a mysterious figure in a bacta tank.
3. In ROTS, cut all scenes of Anakin after he rats out Palpatine, except for the march on the Jedi Temple, where his character would be too obscured to identify.

This might be enough to create ambiguity surrounding who Darth Vader is. We are led to believe Maul survived, sacked the Jedi Temple and killed Anakin. In reality, Maul did die in TPM, the figure in the bacta tank was actually General Grievous, and it was Anakin who really betrayed the Jedi.

I know people in the past have suggested making Darth Vader a title that could be used by multiple characters. Maul could be called Darth Vader, then Anakin takes that title when he becomes his apprentice. You could demonstrate this tradition by having Sidious call Dooku “Darth Tyranus” in AOTC, and after his death in ROTS, Sidious could rename Grievous “Darth Tyranus” during their hologram conversation. Unfortunately you don’t really see how Anakin transforms from man to machine, but maybe this could be something we assume happens after hunting Jedi for two decades.

This was just something I had on my mind during a commute and I wanted to write it out. I personally don’t have a huge desire to see a set of prequels that saves the reveal, but I think it would be cool if fan edits could actually pull it off just to see how it would play out. Like I said, if you have a friend that doesn’t know “Anakin=Vader”, you’re better off just telling to them to watch it in release order. And as I also mentioned, I’ve never tried watching the films in “IV V III VI” order, but I think it has some potential, especially with some slight edits. Plus, it would be a lot less work than trying to pull off a “Save the Reveal” approach. But if anyone has any ideas regarding this saving the reveal approach, it would be interesting to hear them!

Even though that is my perspective I like that you remove the mention it TFA. The reason why being that I think Snoke doesn’t decide that he needs more training until he sees him at the beginning of TLJ, when he sees how conflicted he still is.

EDIT: I also think it is funny how Snoke starts going on this aside and Hux is thinking, “That’s great and all but I can’t stand here and listen to you monologue because the collapse of the planet has begun.”

His training doesn’t have anything to do lightsabers or Force powers. Arguably Snoke trying to have Kylo Ren kill anyone that reminds him of Ben Solo (Leia, Rey) is his training. Killing Han left him unbalanced rather than resolved, so another sacrifice was necessary to solidify his transformation.

At least that is how I interpreted it.