RogueLeader

You’re doing the Lord’s work, fido!

Lucasfilm Sound Designer Matthew Wood was on a podcast today or yesterday where he said he went to Adam Driver’s house in New York and recorded new lines for Kylo in his closet, the same night as his interview with Seth Meyers. People seem to be speculating that this likely was to make Palpatine Rey’s grandfather. Some have speculated that the dyad angle had a stronger focus and was likely what Palpatine was after from the start, rather than being surprised by their connection.

I wonder if we could revert Palpatine’s goal to this somehow. He realizes that Rey and Kylo are the Dyad, through Snoke. Then his mission is to bring them both to Exegol in order to resurrect himself (“Your coming together will be your undoing…”). Maybe his back-up plan was to body-hop if necessary, but draining the life-force of the dyad was his primary goal.

To stray topics a little, I was wanting to have a conversation about how to handle the conclusion of the political subplot of the film. At the end of the movie, we see First Order Star Destroyers inexplicably fall apart across the galaxy. It really just repeats ROTJ, where the Empire was seemingly defeated and everyone was celebrating across the galaxy (and look how that turned out). I’m wondering what people think might be the strongest approach to conclude this story.

Some seem to like the idea of emphasizing the cycle of war and resistance by showing the Resistance forces chasing down a Star Destroyer, as sort of a reversal of A New Hope, basically to say that whenever tyranny rises there will always be those who will rise to fight it.
Alternatively, I think it would be also interesting to see a unification or peace between the First Order and the Resistance, to signify that the Republic that broke apart in the Clone Wars is finally coming back together. There is some symbolism there of healing old wounds that I think can be found throughout the film. Any other ideas? Would like to know what you think. Most of these would be theoretically achieved through some new CG ship model shots rather than entirely new filmed footage.

Also, just kind of wanting to gauge people’s interest in a fan edit where Ben Solo lives at then end of TROS. You can vote here to help give me a sense if people would like to see it.

Also, I like to think of the opening flute as a motif for the beginning of a “Star War”. In ANH, the movie starts at the beginning of the civil war basically, right after the rebels first victory and their subsequent escape.

In TLJ, we follow up the immediate aftermath of the first real battle of the war, the attack on Starkiller Base, and then the movie starts with the subsequent escape of the Resistance.

What I think would be rather fitting is if the flute motif was added to Attack of the Clones, and we hear it after the Battle of Geonosis, the first battle of the war, specifically when Dooku’s ship is escaping the planet.

It isn’t the slow mo shot, but during Kylo’s first swing, when it briefly cuts to Kylo’s reaction.

So would you also cut Luke catching the saber in TROS? I think we’re better off just to leave Force ghost rules a mystery rather than try to rationalize it in a fan edit.

I totally get what you’re saying, NFB. The way the show treats the young bounty hunter vs the old crew is a really good example of that. The show goes out of their way to show that Mando didn’t kill any of these people who are clearly bad people, but Mando shoots Calican dead with little reaction, despite Calican being more sympathetic than any of the old crew. Calican wasn’t anymore deserving of death for betraying Mando because the old crew betrayed Mando too. Obviously this isn’t stuff that breaks the show, but I think from a writing perspective the show is still finding its footing. Being critical of the show isn’t saying it’s a bad show, though.

Their connection is something I’ve been giving thought to as well.

Something I had considered was that maybe after Luke and the Jedi were out of the equation, “Snoke” would have sent Kylo to kill Palpatine, thus tricking Kylo into becoming his new vessel. That was the original plan. In this approach, only a fragment of Palpatine is in Snoke, puppeteering him. So, Kylo killing Snoke wouldn’t be enough to transfer his spirit. Instead, Kylo would have to “kill” Palpatine directly. Obviously this all is conjecture, we could make it however we wanted considering what little information we have, but I think that might be clearer than having to kill Snoke when he is dark enough. Kylo already seemed pretty dark, and Rey wasn’t dark when Palpatine tried to have her kill him.

Basically, I think Snoke’s function was as a buffer between Luke, the Jedi, and Palpatine. He would be a “phantom menace” once again and destroy the Skywalker family from within. Primarily by seducing Ben Solo to the dark side, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Palpatine was also responsible for the vision Leia had that her son would die if she were to complete her Jedi training. But once the Jedi were finally gone, he would return.

I definitely think it would be better if Kylo killing Snoke wasn’t part of Palpatine’s plan. If it was, I feel it would take away from the agency Kylo earns by killing his master. Then in TROS, we could have Kylo Ren and Palpatine more at odds, rather than Kylo running around seemingly doing what Palpatine wants.

Or, maybe it was Palpatine’s plan to use Kylo’s conflicted heart against him in order to bring the dyad together, then he would call them to Exegol and drain their life force. But it seems like Palpatine wasn’t aware of them being the dyad, so you would have to change things to fit that. I just think I prefer the idea that Palpatine wanted Ben to be everything Vader failed to be, to be the perfect vessel. But the unknown variable that is Rey throws off his plans. But once he realized Rey was powerful too, I think he decided either Rey or Ben could be a suitable candidate, and whoever survived and reached him on Exegol would win the prize of being possessed by the literal devil for the rest of their lives.

Agreed, Pearce! I haven’t read the whole conversation, but I do think the best approach is to lay the seeds of Palpatine’s return in 7 and 8, not to make it overtly obvious, but when he is finally revealed in 9, a hypothetical first time viewer would go, “Ahhhh, it makes sense now.” Rather than, “That was not set up at all…”

Don’t make it overt, but don’t make it feel out of left field. Allow room for mystery, like a good crime novel. Mystery surrounds the crime, but when the truth is revealed, you can think back to all the hints that pointed to the truth.

Lol, yeah, it really could apply to both. But I think the biggest Specter, Palpatine, could be removed from the ST by mostly just not having TROS for that Epilogue.

This is an interesting idea. Maybe the wayfinder could be a holocron (the Emperor’s holocron?), and Rey discovers a clue about it in the Jedi texts. Maybe Rey thinks it will reveal the key to defeating the First Order, maybe show her a weakness. While Rey is training for her mission, Kylo connects with her and discovers what she is planning to do. So she has to rush and get it before he does.

Although in retrospect I like the idea you have with ghosts and the foreshadowing there. Maybe after Ben throws his lightsaber away, you could even have an edited montage of the Star Destroyers being destroyed across the galaxy. You could maybe even have the Resistance celebrating. You could end with Rey looking at the forest and Finn asks her what she is looking at, and she says, nothing. But maybe it could be edited to where we see that she is looking at Ben through the Force bond. Maybe we could edit some footage of him on Pasana, but make it look like he has exiled himself to the Lars Homestead. Or, maybe Rey goes to exile herself on Tatooine after that, and it could seem more solemn, but at the end we see Ben has come there too, maybe with the implication that he’ll change her mind and they’ll restart the Jedi order together.

Saying all of this, I personally don’t like the idea of Saga ending with just a duology. So you’d have three prequels, the three originals, and then just two sequels?
After reading your comment, I had this idea that you probably could take the prequels and the sequels and turn them into one prologue and one epilogue for the original trilogy. The prologue could mostly be Revenge of the Sith, excising most contradictions with the OT. Either you could show Anakin’s fall, or keep it ambiguous in order to watch it chronologically and save the reveal. The the epilogue could just be TFA and TLJ, but keep the story to Rey and Kylo’s perspectives, and end it with Broom Boy. You could pull a Hal and name the edits after Legends books, Star Wars: Prologue - Specter of the Past and Star Wars: Epilogue - Vision of the Future.

This is something I wanted to see done myself, so I think it is great to have someone on here who has a more focused goal of changing one element before getting too ambitious like many of us here do, including myself!

I think a good place for you to start while you’re waiting on VAs or debating on the subtitles would be to work on the sound for those clips, so it has all the music and sound effects, but without his dialogue. Then, you could experiment and place whatever voices you want on top of that.

Regarding the dialogue, I don’t think either of them wear a visible Resistance insignia. Rose has the ring, but it is a secret ring she can open and close.

Yeah, you could assume they’ve contacted the First Order and they’ll be picked up eventually. But you could also have radio chatter regarding the First Order coming to retrieve them be heard while the guards are playing cards, or you could hear one of the guards mention it offscreen.

Another option to consider besides a voice actor: Battlefront has a collection of alien voice lines for that species, so you could redub him with alien dialogue and then add appropriate subtitles.

Maybe he could say something like, “I’m confident that is a Resistance ship! I think I saw them head towards the casino!” And maybe as they’re being carried off, we could hear him say offscreen, “Do I get that First Order bounty?”

I guess implying that the First Order has put a bounty on Resistance members. This might actually help explain why Finn and Rose wouldn’t want to park like normal people, hoping their ship wouldn’t be recognized from the beach.

I don’t think there is a point, really. I also don’t like how it sounds like the feminine version of Solo.

You know, I had heard people speculate before about Rey killing her parents, but I actually think that could be an interesting angle to make Rey doubt her inherent goodness. I think you could actually do this idea and keep Rey as a nobody.

Since a lot would have to change to keep Rey Nobody, that reveal would be a good way for certain things like Rey blowing up the ship, or Kylo revealing something to Rey that shocks her to match the level of her reaction.

Like you said, it could be used in different ways:

1. Keep Rey Palpatine, but make Rey’s parents people who didn’t care about her.
2. Make Rey a nobody, but allow Rey to have one final reveal about her parents that ties into her self-doubt about her inner darkness.

I think I would prefer the movie not revealing any new information about her past, but if that would be challenging to achieve, this could be an interesting reveal to work with. Either way, I think the big thing you’d have to change would be to make the ship in Rey’s vision be a different ship than Ochi’s.

EddieDean said:

If Rey’s a clone of anyone she should be either a clone of Palpatine or Vader, since they’re the lineages that Palpatine is known to value. Probably Palpatine himself, since Kylo is already a Vader child under his thrall.

I get this idea but I don’t think this fits the definition of a clone. A clone is genetically identical to the original. If it isn’t, then it isn’t a clone, it is something else.

snooker said:

I get an overwhelming sense of dread whenever you say that, FreezingTNT2

Whenever I go back and watch that part of the movie I always think of TNT.

Honestly I love this idea! It would fit well with recontextualizing “We don’t serve droids here!” to him hating droids. I’m pretty sure the book From a Certain Point of View says he lost his family in a droid attack during the Clone Wars, so it fits. Maybe in his younger years he killed some droids and then used their parts for the Cantina.

Speaking of what Palpatine wants, I also think Palpatine’s motivations need to be changed.

If Palpatine was Snoke, presumably, then Palpatine already knows that Kylo won’t kill Rey. And Kylo would also know that Palpatine knows that. If Palpatine as Snoke couldn’t get Kylo to kill her, then this guy Kylo just met definitely won’t. If Palpatine asked Kylo to bring Rey to him, it might be something more reasonable for him to ask. Then you could use Kylo’s masked dialogue to fill in that gap of why Palpatine wants him to bring Rey there. Maybe it is to kill her himself, maybe he tries to convince Kylo that he can help turn her to the dark side, or maybe he never tells him why and the truth is that he knows about the dyad and needs them both there to drain their power.

Whatever the reason, I think Kylo would look smarter if he knows it is probably a trap, and his goal is to find Rey and keep her from reaching Exegol, because he knows that is exactly what Palpatine wants.

EDIT: I suppose my motivation for this is that I still want to keep this idea that Kylo has overcome what Vader couldn’t to some extent. Vader was a pawn of the Emperor up until he threw him down that reactor shaft. I think Kylo Ren should stop being Palpatine’s pawn when he kills Snoke. So even though Palpatine is “alive”, Kylo sees past Palpatine’s machinations and tries to work against them. I think this would help keep Kylo’s character regressing too much from where we left him in TLJ.

I went back and read over the leaked plot points of Trevorrow’s Episode 9 and I noticed a nice little easter egg. The very last scene of the film would have shown Finn and the crew help Rey make a sanctuary on a ranch-like planet for Force-sensitive children (including Broom Boy), presumably to train them as the new generation of Jedi. What I thought was a nice touch was that the name of the planet was MODESTA, which I think is meant to be a reference to Modesto, California, George Lucas’ hometown.

Yeah, I think it would be hard to really show enough that would be a satisfying answer to that question, I just thought it could be the initial motivation for why Kylo connects with Vader’s helmet.

I had totally forgot about that scene between them. That definitely would need to be changed, but like you said, if you can change it appropriately it could help show the two villains at odds. I think another scene I would like to change somewhat is the First Order meeting.
These scene goes like this:

First Order Officer Quinn speaks up, dismissing the Sith Eternal as “a cult, conjurers and soothsayers.” Pryde refutes these concerns, stating that the resources of the First Order will be increased ten thousand fold by the incorporation of the Sith fleet into their own ranks. With a spiteful glance at a glowering Hux, Pryde notes that the influence of this ancient power will “correct the error of Starkiller Base.” Unconvinced, Quinn wonders aloud if the ships are truly a gift, and what Palpatine might demand in return. In response, Ren brutally chokes the general through the Force and lifts his body to the ceiling. The fallen Jedi then commands his officers to prepare to crush any worlds that will defy the Order, and that he and his acolytes will be hunting the scavenger.

Why Kylo chokes that guy makes so little sense to me. If anything, he probably agrees with Quinn more than anyone else in that room. He’s probably bringing up points that Kylo has already thought about. Like you said, I’ll have to go back and watch it again, but I would really like to be able to end this scene without Kylo choking that officer.

Agreed, I think these are all really great.

DominicCobb said:

Yeah I was thinking you could add something in Luke’s pep talk, I remember a lot of his dialogue was offscreen (weird considering they reshot it). You probably could add something in the voices scene. That actually reminds me, I had the thought awhile back that perhaps you could even add the voices of people like Maul and Dooku? They were wronged by Palpatine as well. You could potentially make the argument that while Palpatine = pure evil, Maul and Dooku were more complex and didn’t see the dark side that way.

This isn’t a bad idea. And since other Jedi that seemed to died normally seem to have “come back” from the netherworld like Qui-Gon did, I don’t think it is out of the question that former Sith could’ve been shown the light in the netherworld as well, although that might be confusing to the audience with no explanation. People might think the Jedi and Sith are arguing in her head like little angels and devils on her shoulder, if you’re not careful about their dialogue choices.

Some Force ghost line ideas -
Anakin: Love is essential to a Jedi’s life.
Yoda: Anger is a natural part of life.

Since the film has come out, I’ve been keeping a notepad of ideas of sort of “how I would have done it.” Silly, sure, but I’ve found it a healthy way to work through my feelings on the film.

Not silly. I started writing my own version of the film earlier this month, but when I go down that rabbit hole so far I try to bring it back to ideas that could be doable for a fan edit.

One of the ideas I had, is that you could have accomplished something interesting if Kylo spoken to the ghost of Anakin. But, what if it wasn’t just Anakin, it went back and forth between Anakin and Vader, like in the TFA concept art? And Anakin/Vader talks about how both the darkness and the light lives within him, just as it does in Kylo, and that ultimately the choice is his to make.

So what if we have something like this when Kylo touches Vader’s mask? Make it a scene by itself. Kylo touches the mask, then we cut back and forth to ethereal images of Anakin and Vader fading in and out of black. Hopefully between the two versions there’d be enough dialogue to work with. You could then follow this scene with Kylo repairing his mask, as if the choice he’s made is the dark side (for now).

In my mind, what would have made this work well is if the ghost makes it clear Snoke is the one he had been previously talking to, but now he’s actually talking to his grandfather. With TROS, obviously it’s tricky because of the “every voice inside your head” line. Maybe just cut that?

It’s very funny that you had this idea! I have mentioned before the idea of making the scene of Kylo touching the helmet a scene of its own, but last night I made a note that it could be a vision from a Force ghost. I had the thought that it could be Luke trying to show Ben the truth. Trevorrow’s script also had this idea of Luke’s ghost haunting Ben, which I liked since Luke in TLJ said “See you around, kid” but we never get a pay off to that in TROS. But in his version, it feels like Luke has given up on Ben, but I like the idea that Luke is trying to right his own wrongs by doing what he can to help him still.

My idea was that Kylo connects with the helmet to try and confirm what Palpatine told him. So we could see flashes that could hint to how Palpatine survived and manipulated Ben his whole life. Maybe it could start out more like a dark side vision from Palpatine, but then Luke/Anakin/Old Ben take(s) control and try to show Ben the truth. The content of the vision is still kind of nebulous in my head, though. But it could be a good opportunity to help show that Ben is in opposition with Palpatine, something I really want to do. I want to make Kylo seem more aware that Palpatine is up to something, and is trying to figure out how to go against his plans rather than follow them.

I agree, Trevorrow’s script at least had a moment where Rey acknowledged how she would be a different Jedi, when she says to the Force ghosts, “Our master’s were wrong. I will not deny my anger and I will not reject my love.” I think generally that was on the right track. Jedi can’t shun their natural human emotions, they have to acknowledge their feelings and handle them appropriately.

I wish it could come from Rey, but the only ideas I can think of to make a more explicit way to get this concept across would be to either, a) Give Luke some kind of dialogue that is along those lines when he gives Rey her pep talk, or b) have one or more of the Force ghosts (Luke, Anakin, Ahsoka) say something to Rey along those lines. Maybe we could do both to reinforce that idea. I think it would definitely make sense for Luke to be the one to have came to this conclusion, and pass that truth onto Rey. We would just have to dig around for lines that would fit in well with this idea. There might be a lot more weight to this idea than them just telling her to “Rise, rise, rise” over and over again.

Your new videos are good! Some great additions in there. Let me give you some technical/editing advice.

For your Mustafar confrontation:
When Anakin says, “I’m becoming more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of, and I’m doing it for you. To protect you. Only my new powers can do that. Trust me.” I would suggest cutting the shot of Anakin and place it over the shot of Padme backing away, and if “trust me” doesn’t fit, just cut it. The shot feels a little odd, since Padme starts backing up, but then in that shot she isn’t moving. Either use “trust me”, or “only my new powers can do that”, but I think it would be better to just remove that shot.

I feel like there is a lot of quick cuts when Anakin and Padme notice Obi-Wan is at the top of the landing ramp. I wonder if certain shots could be removed to tighten that up a little.

The added line, “You weren’t there! I did what I had to do!” doesn’t really fit imo.

The pre-Mustafar stuff:
You cut quickly to Obi-Wan to remove Yoda calling Anakin “young”, but honestly I think you should consider keeping it in this instance because this cut is just way too quick.

I understand why you cut Obi mentioning “the death of Count Dooku” to Padme, but I think we lose some of the time we get to see of Padme as the reality of the situation slowly begins to sink in for her. It feels like the scene moves by rather quickly.

I do like how you were able to keep Obi-Wan realizing Anakin is the father. That works pretty well I think.

I don’t think it is necessary to show Obi-Wan hiding in a small room aboard Padme’s ship, because in your version she knows he is with her, right? I understand why he would need to sneak on the ship so no one else sees him, but once they’re on the ship he shouldn’t be hiding from anyone.

I’ll try to be brief but I wanted to talk a little about the characterization. I understand why you wouldn’t want to make it seem like Obi-Wan isn’t going there to kill Anakin, but by removing this, now it seems really weird that Padme claims that she brought Obi-Wan there to kill him. So she is mad and is lying to him that her and Obi came to kill him? But she just told him she loved him still, so why should she try to trigger him like that?

It just feels really out of left field for her to say that now, especially if Obi-Wan didn’t give her the impression that he might have to kill him. I also think some tension is lost if Yoda doesn’t pose that dilemma to Obi-Wan. It is similar to Yoda and Obi-Wan telling Luke that he must kill Darth Vader. There is conflict in the task Luke must face and his own morals. You get a conflict with Obi-Wan, who doesn’t want to kill Anakin, but Yoda tells him the Sith must be destroyed. The moral dilemma creates interesting drama. So I think there is some benefit to Obi-Wan telling Yoda he can’t kill Anakin, then Padme asking if he is going to kill Anakin, and Obi-Wan not knowing how to answer. Maybe when Obi-Wan and Padme go, they want to try and save Anakin, but they don’t know if they can. It provides this through line that would lead up to Padme realizing Anakin has changed and admitting they came to stop him.

Right now it feels like this.
Anakin: You brought him here to kill me!
Padme: Because of what you’ve done, what you plan to do!
Obi-Wan: Whoa, wait, that wasn’t the plan!

I think you also have this issue of removing Anakin telling Padme that he brought peace to the Republic and that they can rule the galaxy, but as soon as Padme is out cold he starts talking about his new Empire. I guesss it is supposed to be that since Padme has turned against him, he changes his focus to the Empire? I feel like it would work better with what you’re trying to do if all that talk could also be changed, because even if it is pushed back to after Anakin chokes Padme, the change is rather sudden. Based on the way you’re portraying Anakin, I feel like Anakin wouldn’t be talking like that until after Padme is dead and has lost everythng else.

I have some ideas for some of these changes but I’ll see what your thoughts are first. Again, not trying to say there is a right or wrong way to approach this. Just trying to logic through the characterizations to make sure they hold up.

snooker said:

Snooker, you’re a wonderful human being!

Those are cool ideas Anakin, but definitely would be near impossible to achieve. I think the best we can do is show it briefly, like Snooker’s test image.