Sign In

RogueLeader

User Group
Trusted Members
Join date
11-Jun-2015
Last activity
17-Jul-2019
Posts
958

Post History

Post
#1279504
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Going back to IX, I had some other thoughts regarding Snoke’s function in the ST.

All of the speculation surrounding the Palpatine has made people wonder if Snoke was a servant, vessel, or rival to him.

Looking back at some early concept art from the TFA book, you can see three antagonists appear pretty early in the book: Jedi Killer, Uber, and another character that appears to be Darth Talon.

George was a big fan of Talon when she appeared in the Legacy comic series, and he wanted LucasArts to somehow shoehorn her into a Darth Maul that was subsequently cancelled during the Disney acquisition. In the Art of book, there are four storyboard panels titled “The Seduction”. The first panel shows a young Jedi saving a female twilek from cantina thugs, the second shows them walking together, the third they are sharing a bed after having slept together, and the fourth shows the twilek standing in the threshold of the bedroom while the Jedi appears to be under some kind of duress (possibly Force-induced).

I had assumed Talon was just an early version of the Jedi Killer, but I’ve also been wondering if that Jedi is actually the Son of Solo, and this is how he became evil. He was literally seduced by the dark side. Art of Talon appears a few times in the book.

There is another image of Darth Talon standing in front of a dark, ethereal creature who we can assume is Uber. The piece is titled “Darth Talon, Dark Side of the Force”. The description McCaig gives is, “The tattoos [of Talon] are a lot simpler. They follow a rhythm and they flow. And that’s the evil thing puppeteering her from behind.”

I’ve just always assumed this Talon was cut from the story and the Uber character ended up becoming Snoke, and I think that’s partly true. But, do you think if Palpatine returning was in fact intended from the beginning as Kennedy suggests, is it possible this ethereal Uber “puppetmaster” character was actually disembodied Palpatine, and Snoke served Darth Talon’s function as the “seducer”?

Snoke clearly played a big role in Ben’s fall to the dark side, but instead of literally seducing him, he became much more like a Palpatine type of manipulator. I believe I read somewhere that Snoke was at one point considered to be a female character, so maybe this is what they meant by that.

If Snoke was truly intended to never be the big bad, it would also explain why pulled imagery from the Wizard of Oz, a larger than life hologram in TFA, the Man Behind the Curtain symbolism with the red curtains burning down after Snoke’s death.

This is all wild speculation and obviously things change so much over the course of story development that trying to connect the dots is like playing pin the tail on the donkey, but it is fun to think about. If Sidious is back and not just a haunt or hologram, I’m still not sure if Snoke was knowingly serving him, or was a vessel for his spirit, or something else. I still believe it is the simplest answer: Snoke was his own guy, and if Palpatine is manipulating Kylo Ren, he merely positioned him to become his apprentice and eliminate this rival before he came back physically. (Snoke is just another rival, like Mother Talzin in the Clone Wars)

I’m still a little nervous about how they pull this off because resorting to another Big Evil Guy was not what I was originally hoping for. But it could work.

Post
#1279495
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

And from what I understood they only had concept art for Grievous to go off of, so they had to invent his personality on their own.

But to be fair, I understand why George wanted to make this General character a mustache-twirling villain that runs away and gets beat over and over. It fits into that villain archetype of old serials. I don’t think people would have been as disappointed if Grievous had just been set up that way in the micro-series as well.

Growing up I always rationalized the characterization difference as Grievous being pretty powerful right after his transformation, but slowly became weaker as his remaining organics struggled to exist within his cyborg body.

Post
#1279470
Topic
Star Wars flaws (a to do list for fan edits)
Time

You should hop over the Prequel Radical Redux Ideas thread, Pan! I know versions of your idea have been suggested before.

Basically, the Clones aren’t a mystery, and Obi-Wan just goes to inspect them in AOTC instead of just discovering them.

You would have to change a few things, since Padmé was voting against the creation of a Grand Army of the Republic. But if the army is already being created, you would need to make it where she is trying to do something else. Maybe she is just a leading voice in trying to find a diplomatic solution to the Republic/Seperatist arms race?

You also would have to figure out what Obi-Wan will do for the majority of AOTC, since you would have to rework the mystery plot.

Maybe the general structure of the film could remain the same, but alter the Kamino scenes so the Clone army isn’t a mystery to him. Basically, the death of Zam/the saber dart could lead him to Kamino, where he finds out that the bounty hunter he is after is actually the template for the Clone Army. Maybe the connection between the Clone Army, Jango and Dooku would be less suspicious since the Clone Army isn’t a secret.

I’d definitely suggest continuing this conversation to the Prequel Radical Redux Ideas thread. https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Prequel-Radical-Redux-Ideas-Thread/id/9911/page/1

There are general idea threads for all three trilogies, but maybe we should make a general Skywalker Saga Ideas thread too!

Post
#1279465
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Yeah, I think Filoni was initially reluctant to bring Maul back, but it came from George.

I also am not sure if George wanted the Jedi Killer to copy his look from Vader, but it does seem like the Jedi Killer was meant to be the son of Han and Leia (which was revealed to the Visualists in Summer of 2013). It is possible though that was a Michael Ardnt idea. But the Jedi Killer being the grandson of Darth Vader at least rationalized the character’s desire to emulate Vader, even in appearance.

Post
#1279460
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Here is a part of the interview with the Dark Empire author.

TOM: Our original proposal was to bring back Darth Vader’s costume and mask, with somebody else inside it. We felt the Empire would want to maintain the fearsome image of Vader and wouldn’t much care who was wearing the armor and breathing mask. George vetoed that idea (although he did allow us to have Vader appear in dreams and memories). He said, no, you can’t bring back the Vader costume…but if you can figure out how to bring back the Emperor, that’s o.k.

The obvious way to bring back the Emperor was with cloning, which George immediately approved.

Now, Zahn has said in an interview that bringing back the Emperor goes against the story of Return of the Jedi, where we see the Emperor destroyed by Darth Vader. But Zahn misses something essential about that scene: When the Emperor dares Luke to “strike me down”, he seems utterly indifferent to his own death! He feels that whatever the outcome of this confrontation with Luke, he, Palpatine, will conquer.

http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2016/08/interview-with-dark-empire-writer-tom.html?m=1

Post
#1279455
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

MalàStrana said:

DominicCobb said:

MalàStrana said:

Grievous figure, i.e. the new charismatic vilain

We just going to ignore this?

Oh yeah sorry, I wrote it in French: I meant to write “villain”, with two “l”. “Vilain” is the French spelling.

I think he meant how you referred to Grievous as a compelling villain!

Post
#1279452
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

TiddySprinklesPimpBillion said:

Episode IX = Dark Empire XV.

That’s sorta the reason this makes me think George had some part in this idea. Originally when Tom Veitch was writing Dark Empire, the antagonist was going to be someone impersonating Vader. George came in, though, and suggested making it Palpatine reborn.

I do agree with Hal and some others in that I do feel bringing back Palpatine could take away from Vader’s sacrifice in ROTJ if not handled properly, but what is ironic is that the idea of Palpatine coming back from apparent death is a Lucas idea. Not saying that makes it a good or bad idea, but it is interesting. The idea, when taken at face-value, seems to undermine the narrative, but the idea has come from the creator himself, and isn’t an element of fan-fiction.

Post
#1279247
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

You’re right. It is his Episode I: Return of the Sith edit. I’m sure it isn’t the only one either. So unless there were any issues with that edit that probably proves that it could work.

Another thing this reminds me of, I think if/when I eventually do edits of the saga films, something I would really like to try and do is keep the runtime at 2 hours. A lot of prequels edits sit at 90 minutes or even less, and I’m sure there better films for it, but I guess I don’t want them to feel too short.

I guess that just might be a rule I want to follow, so it inevitably will force me to cut only the most egregious things. So at least my case I may have to keep those scenes in order to remove other bits and pieces to maintain a 2-hour runtime. Unless I kept the bulk of those scenes and somehow swapped out Sidious with Maul.

Post
#1279215
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

TK42-WAN said:

This above is more or less how I intend to represent Dooku in my edit (though he won’t be a Sith). He’s aware of Palpatine, and his machinations, obviously certain things will have to be inferred due to the material available. I thought by adding Dooku to the Senate scene in TPM it draws a link between him and Palpatine, and the fact that he turns and walks away will show his disillusionment with the Senate.

He would be wielding a blue sabre in my edit.

Yeah, that is cool. This has been a common idea and luckily it doesn’t require major changes (cutting some lines, a scene, and changing Dooku’s saber color). This totally works for a radical edit, but it does contradict any non-film material, like the Clone Wars show. I guess I’m trying to figure out a way to maintain some of that added depth, but not blatantly contradict other material.

If there was a way one could add a line for Dooku about having joined the Dark Lord or something along those lines, but still keep him saying “we can destroy the Sith”, might help get that idea across. I think even deleting/altering Dooku’s lines about the Viceroy coming to him for help could help with this idea a little. If anyone has any ideas regarding line alterations or other usable Christopher Lee lines that could help, I’d appreciate the input!

On another note, I always felt Obi-Wan should be wielding Qui-Gon’s green blade at the start of Attack of the Clones.

This would be a cool idea too. Anakin and Obi’s Episode 2 sabers really could be any color since they end up losing both of them by the end of the movie.

Alternatively, I’ve always liked the idea that Luke uses Qui-Gon’s saber that Obi-Wan kept to build his green lightsaber. You could imply this by changing the ignition sound of Qui-Gon’s saber in TPM to the sound Luke’s makes in ROTJ.
If one were to also reinsert the scene of Luke building his saber in ROTJ, maybe someone could insert a brand new shot of Qui-Gon’s dismantled saber on the ground.

Another idea I wanted to discuss, and I believe this has been done in some edits before, is the idea of removing all of the Darth Sidious scenes in The Phantom Menace. I think there are some pros to this idea. One, it keeps the Sith more mysterious, because the only Sith we’ll ever see is Darth Maul. It allows the question Mace poses at the end, “But which was destroyed? The master, or the apprentice?”

It also allows Dooku’s exposition to Obi-Wan in AOTC be a little more revealing since that information wouldn’t be as obvious in TPM. At that point we wouldn’t know if Dooku was lying or if he was the “master” during the events of TPM. Then at the end of AOTC, the persona of Darth Sidious appears on screen for the first time and we realize Dooku was telling the truth.

It also would parallel A New Hope, since the Emperor is mentioned but never seen. In this version of TPM, we may hear reference to a Sith Master and feel his influence, but we would never see the Sidious persona.

Obviously there would be some cons, but I’m wondering if people think the film would be worse off without those scenes.
Do you think we would lose context that would make the film more confusing? I just think it would be interesting if we knew just about as much as our protagonists know.

If necessary, you could replace Sidious in some of those scenes with Darth Maul, and either add new VO or use existing dialogue from the film or of Sam Witwer voicing Maul. This would be a lot more work, but you would be giving Maul more to do in the film, though.

What do you guys think?

Post
#1279125
Topic
The Original Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

I think the unfortunate thing about the deleted scenes is how their quality doesn’t really match the rest of the film. I think it would be cool to insert it to see if it would work logically, but I think it could only be seamless if you made the whole edit appear lower quality, like grindhouse, VHS or just standard definition.

And maybe you could add some com chatter during Falcon interiors of a rebel commando updating Lando on the ground battle.

Post
#1279118
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

I’ve always liked the idea of Dooku being just a rogue Jedi, because it makes Dooku a more complex character. I think a big issue with that though is that it would contradict Dooku’s portrayal in the Clone Wars, for those who enjoy the show.

I kinda wish there was a way to have Dooku aligned with Sidious, but imply that maybe Dooku has joined the Sith with the intention of trying to destroy it from within. Like, maybe that was his motivation for joining Sidious initially and he thought he would be strong enough to resist the temptations of the dark side, but as the war goes on, we see Dooku becoming more and more cruel.

Some of the new canon material, like the recent Master and Apprentice novel, implies that Dooku believed he might be the Chosen One, so this would kind go along with that idea. In this way, Dooku’s conversation with Obi-Wan about wanting to destroy the Sith would actually be true.
Maybe if you were to cut/alter the portion of their conversation about the Trade Federation being betrayed by “the dark lord” and coming to Dooku for help, and maybe replace it with something that one could piece together about him finding the dark lord and joining him.

Maybe when he almost kills Obi-Wan, you could have Dooku say “I’m sorry, Obi-Wan”.

And then in Revenge of the Sith, right before Anakin kills him, maybe Dooku could start trying to say something, like wait/stop/no/he is-, some variation of that.

I kind of like the idea of Dooku joining the dark side in the belief that it was a necessary evil, but being corrupted along the way. And it wouldn’t blatantly contradict the Clone Wars, because you could still keep his red lightsaber and him working with Sidious.

Post
#1279117
Topic
General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread
Time

I think the dilemma they ran into was Michael Ardnt not feeling the script worked with Luke being reintroduced earlier in the film. Once he came into the picture, Ardnt said that he stole the spotlight, and I’m guessing it hurt the film because the new characters didn’t have enough time to really establish themselves. So, Luke became the goal they were after. But, I think even in George’s treatment, Han probably died at the end of TFA. So the way the story was set up, there were limited possibilities for the big three to share screentime altogether.

It did seem like George’s treatment for 7 may have actually portrayed the Solo son’s fall to the dark side, rather than it being the mystery/backstory as it is in the current ST (but it may have just been flashbacks). But it seems Luke was in a Colonel Kurtz-like exile even in George’s treatment.

I think we can discuss ad nauseum about what-ifs and alternate versions of the ST (people still do rewrites of the PT even now, even I have before) and if it would’ve worked or not. I think, at the very least, it would be cool if we got a flashback in IX of Han and Leia giving Ben to Luke, and it could be an opportunity to have them on screen together but still fit within the story. I’m not necessarily expecting that, but I think people would enjoy that.

I know I’m just setting myself up for disappointment, but I can picture something like that as a cold opening for the movie. Luke has a brief discussion with Han and Leia, and the last shot of the scene would be a close up on young Ben as Luke tells him he’s destined for great things, and then it would hard cut to an older, scarred Kylo Ren as Supreme Leader of the galaxy, sitting on a cold, black throne.

Post
#1278930
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I’m not saying it is a God, you can still interpret the Force as just a non-sentient system of nature that seeks to maintain balance. Force-users are conduits of the Force, and Force-users who allow the Force to act through them will naturally have the Force on their side.

I feel like you can only see the Force in two ways: either it is a conscious, dynamic entity that guides people or a unconscious, static power source that Force-users draw their abilities from. But it isn’t that black and white. The Force isn’t that simple. It can be an energy field, but also have a will of its own, but it doesn’t necessarily make it conscious or unconscious. Am I making any sense?

I think it is a bit of a mistake to think we understand the rules of the Force or what it exactly is. I think being set in one’s interpretation of the Force is exactly how the Jedi of the prequels lost their way.

My interpretation of the Force is a lot like how the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching describes the Tao.

The Way that can be walked is not the eternal Way.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of Heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of all things.

Therefore:
Free from desire you see the mystery.
Full of desire you see the manifestations.
These two have the same origin but differ in name.
That is the secret,
The secret of secrets,
The gate to all mysteries.

EDIT:
Just to add on to what I’m trying to say, check out this interview George Lucas did back in 1999. They really get into why George wanted to create the Force in Star Wars and what he wanted the audience, especially young people, to get from it.

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,23298-2,00.html

Post
#1278922
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I just don’t agree that the she has to have some kind of lineage. I mean hell, Palpatine is a great example. Palpatine came from average parents, at least in Legends, not sure in canon, but he became the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Yeah, maybe bloodline can predispose people to have an already innate connection with the Force, but it doesn’t mean incredible talent can come from nowhere. And people bring up the fact that most great Jedi in Star Wars history did not have Jedi parents, but the whole point of Rey being a nobody is to show how anyone can be a hero even among legends. So to me it isn’t the same as just having a new hero in a new story with all new characters.

The Sequel Trilogy is basically if you combined the Legend of King Arthur with the story of Joan of Arc.

Joan (Rey) is chosen by God (the Force), given a special sword, and goes on a journey to save the land. Joan was just a farm girl, but she goes on to win battles even though she has no military training. Do we call Joan a Mary Sue? If God did not have a presence in the story, sure, but Joan has been chosen by God because of her piety and faith. It is her faith that gives her her power. Rey is a great comparison, in my opinion.

And instead of Joan trying to save France, it is like Joan trying to bring back King Arthur to save the land from his evil nephew, Mordred (interestingly, Joan of Arc’s greatest gift to the French army was really hope, a theme I believe is central to the purpose of Luke and the Jedi in the ST).

I also don’t believe the rules have the Force have changed either. Now, with the OT alone the Force is described pretty simply, but within the context of the PT I believe it fits.
Not sure in canon, but in Legends Plagueis and Palpatine did NOT create Anakin. Anakin/the Chosen One was created by the Force reacting to the growing power and machinations of the Sith. In the films themselves, Mace and Yoda discuss how their abilities in the Force are diminishing. I think the Sith choose to see the Force as just a system or a tool, but I think the Jedi see the Force as alive. To me, the Force, even in the OT, is meant to be a spiritual thing where faith and belief were fundamental to its identity. The Force is much more like God, or the Tao, rather than a system of magic from an RPG. That’s what George always meant for it to be.

Regarding Snoke

For awhile I thought Snoke was some kind of servant of Palpatine, but now I believe Snoke was merely a new Force-user who filled in the power vacuum, just a dark side rival similar to Mother Talzin. And if Sidious has been influencing Ben through Vader’s helmet or something, then it is possible Sidious just helped to position Ben to become Snoke’s apprentice in order to kill his both of his rivals (Snoke and Luke). A lot of the Wizard of Oz imagery, with the larger-than-life hologram and the red curtains of Snoke’s throne room (Man Behind the Curtain) seems to suggest this idea of Snoke being a red herring of sorts.

Post
#1278878
Topic
Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's
Time

How much consideration the writers put into it is certainly up for debate (I definitely feel JJ gave more attention to some elements over others). If you read through the “Art of” books, especially The Force Awakens, you can definitely see Rick Carter, JJ, and the whole team delving back into fundamental questions about the nature of the Star Wars galaxy. How strong is the Force? Who is Luke Skywalker? What is the Force’s relevance? Does it mean anything now? They were really focused on the nature of the Force early on, it seems.

Post
#1278812
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

This guy’s is still 3 hours. I dunno, you nitpick something long enough anything’s gonna fall apart. Also, this guy’s brand seems to be all about trashing Disney, and Star Wars in particular. Just doesn’t seem super unbiased. But to be fair I haven’t listened to it yet so I’ll give it a listen sometime. Regardless, thanks for sharing Val!

Post
#1278704
Topic
Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's
Time

NeverarGreat said:

That’s why I don’t have an issue with this scene apart from the inconsistency when compared to the OT - it feels like an almost necessary change for modern audiences. The immediate Force abilities on the other hand…

Yes, and I think this goes back to my perspective that the Force plays a more active role in this trilogy. If you dropped Rey into the prequels or the original trilogy, I don’t think Rey’s abilities would be as significant as they are in the Sequel Trilogy.

I know some people don’t like the idea of a dynamic Force, some people see the Force as more of a “what” than a “who”, but I don’t think you have to think of the Force as a conscious entity. You could interpret the Force as like the immune system of the galaxy, or how an ecosystem adapts to drastic changes in the environment. Just my two cents though.

Post
#1278692
Topic
Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's
Time

It seems Rey has flown before (like the quad-jumper that blew up), but she hasn’t flown the Falcon. Despite that, she seems to be really familiar with the controls and ins-and-outs of the Falcon. From her dialogue it seems like she helped Unkar Plutt make repairs to the Falcon, and was also familiar with the modifications Plutt made that she didn’t agree with.