That is an interesting perspective. I think the importance of Vader’s redemption rests on the father/son dynamic, and I don’t know if a political motivation would have resonated with people on the same level as what we got.
Sorry, I haven’t kept up with the whole conversation, but to give my opinion on the main post, I think asking if someone deserves redemption or forgiveness is a rather philosophical question. Based off a religious perspective, forgiveness or redemption isn’t a question of whether they deserve it, but if they ask for it. If someone asks for forgiveness and seeks redemption, they receive it.
The original trilogy affirms that by Vader redeeming himself and seeking forgiveness from Luke. You can say, “but he killed all these people, and he did all these bad things”, but what the person has done is irrelevant from a religious or mythic standpoint once they start down the path of redemption. People can certainly apply a real-world perspective on crime and punishment to Star Wars, but Star Wars isn’t a real-world story. It is a fairy tale meant to teach people, especially children, lessons. And the lesson of Kylo Ren to me is like a retelling of the Parable of the Prodigal Son. In that story, did the foolish son deserve to be welcomed back with open arms by his father? If you think he didn’t, why do you think the father accepted him back? What do you think that story is trying to teach people?
In my opinion, this is what the redemption of Ben Solo is trying to teach others. Lucas wanted Star Wars to be myth for a modern audience, and while the Sequel Trilogy may have stumbled a bit on the execution, I certainly think the it succeeded on that front to some extent.
EDIT: Also wanted to add that Rey and Ben Solo always felt endgame to me. I think an enemies to lovers story was a great way to end the saga. Bringing the two sides back together.
I think how the films could be edited all comes down to personal preference. Some might be fine with the ST as a single epilogue film, or as a duology, but personally I would feel like something would always feel missing. Unlike removing Rey Palpatine, which I think is doable, I believe removing Palpatine entirely from the film would be either impossible, or the amount of excision needed would leave the film unsatisfying.
I think the better option is to go in the opposite direction and add elements to the previous films to better set up his revival. Poppasketti has already done this to some extent by adding subtle hints to his TLJ edit, but I could also see future editors adding details to Return of the Jedi as well as The Force Awakens to hint at this as well. If you want to have a nine-film saga, then I think it would be simpler to retcon previous films to improve the cohesiveness of the whole story, rather than almost entirely re-edit the sequel films to better fit the original.
But I can understand why people would want to do the latter. The original films are great, and in a perfect world shouldn’t be changed to accommodate the less-than-perfect sequel/prequel films. But in terms of practicality, it would be easier to to make smaller changes throughout the nine films, including the OT, in order to improve the continuity of the entire saga, rather than attempt to make major structural changes to the sequels/prequels to better fit the sacredness of the original trilogy.
For example, I think it would be better to remove the galaxy-wide celebration at the end of ROTJ to better leave the following political situation more open ended. Maybe hints to Palpatine’s contingency or survival could be added to the various throne room scenes. Or in the case of the prequels, dialogue could be changed throughout the OT better fit what is established in the prequels. This might be distasteful for some, but I think the OT films, whether you watch the GUOT or Adywan’s, or Harmy’s, they will always work as a standalone trilogy in itself that allows you to fill in the before and after with canon, the Expanded Universe, or your own headcanon. But since we have nine films in the saga, I personally would love to eventually see edits of all nine films that makes the entire story feel as natural and cohesive as we can possibly make it.
A part of me is skeptical if the script is real, but even if it isn’t, the writer has clearly gone through great pains to match the details we’ve heard about the script already, so it being real or a well-made fan adaption doesn’t make a big difference to me. You could read this script and get the gist of what the real DOTF script is like. But this might actually be the real script, I guess we’ll see if anyone corroborates it or proves it false.
Agreed but it would be infeasible to change.
I could just edit this to be the Mandalorian Discussion thread.
It does look pretty bad, but out of all the things that work could be put into, that seems rather inconsequential and way too much work to be worth it.
Yeah Hal, I think you could just wait another year or so and you could probably piece together an edit of your liking that you can share with others. A lot less work than making all of the changes yourself.
Noice. Yeah, what Nev said, and I think it is enough to alleviate any concerns about it.
Regarding Han shooting the stormtrooper, are you just adding it back in as-is? I don’t think adding anything to it is really necessary, but I had some other thoughts of what could be implemented to it. I think I had suggested Han reacting to the lucky shot with surprised, “Huh”, but instead of that, you could add a sound of the stormtrooper’s blaster “charging”, or the stormtrooper could start saying, “Don’t move” or something along those lines, to imply Han heard the stormtrooper behind him and shot in the direction of the sound. Or have a shot buzz past Han. Anything to give Han an indication that a stormtrooper is behind him, since right now it seems like Han just “knew” a stormtrooper was there. It honestly doesn’t bother me but I could see how adding some kind of hint could improve the moment, maybe.
Yes, especially in this case. Supposedly they’re a brand new class call the Xyston-class. They’re basically the same as the ISD I, except they’re slightly bigger and have mini Death Star lasers.
If they look exactly the same, it is arguably less confusing if you imply that they’re old models that have been modified rather than brand new ships built in secret.
Restructured already contradicts canon by having Starkiller Base destroy Hosnian later in the film, so I don’t think changing a very unimportant detail about the origins of the ships that all blow up by the end of the film matter too much.
I feel like I have an argumentative tone, but it just because this was one detail about the movie that frustrated me.
A quick example of how you can word it, based off the crawl from the first post:
“Meanwhile, Supreme Leader Kylo Ren seeks the rumored lost fleet of the Empire, determined to use it to end the war threatening his rule…”
I’m not sure how you could get this implication across in the film. Maybe in the crawl, instead of saying Kylo is searching for the source of Snoke’s power, he’s looking for the Emperor’s lost fleet. Maybe that’s what the Knights of Ren were doing during the last two films, looking for clues to the lost fleet of the Empire.
Dom had a good idea regarding ROTJ, to make Palpatine’s Star Destroyer have those same red stripes. We could even create a shot of the end of the film of it, and other Destroyers, leaving the battle. The blank screen in his throne room could be used of foreshadowing as well.
But yeah, just trying to make that change in Episode IX alone, I would say mentioning it in the crawl would be the the most straightforward way to do that. It almost might not be a bad idea to downplay its scale a little.
Apparently Walmart posted a listing for the Rise of Skywalker 3D blu ray saying that it will release on April 13, so I’m guessing it will be around then when we find out what deleted scenes we’ll get.
I think we should end this conversation on Poppa’s thread unless we’re arguing for a specific change in his edit.
Every time I see you post on your thread I get a little excited, only to see “PM sent” 😂
I mean in ROTJ Luke goes on and on about he won’t kill Vader, but as soon as he threatens Leia he almost kills him. I’m sure Luke was shocked and never expected Ben to have those thoughts or plans. If he didn’t love Ben he wouldn’t have felt so ashamed himself for what he thought about doing.
Why wouldn’t it be personal if it was all of his students? This isn’t like Luke’s 10th year of teaching high school history or something, this is the first generation of new Jedi. All of his students, all of his responsibility. He probably felt like a parent to all of them.
EDIT: Sorry to bring this up! I know this is kind of conversation just goes in circles. I’m sure there’s a good way to edit the vision to make Luke’s response be more reflexive, but honestly I think adding the Palpatine laugh allows people who aren’t crazy about the scene to interpret that as Palpatine influencing his vision and coaxing his fear/anger, just like how he saw Vader coax Luke on the Death Star so long ago.
I mean, I’m sure Luke loves all of his students, and in his vision he sees them all dying, so him turning on his saber is him acting instinctually to protect them.
I also don’t know if Luke would exile himself if he knew Han would die in the future.
To me, Luke is mainly seeing the destruction of the temple and the death of his students. So after it happens, there’s little left from his vision to prevent. Maybe in his mind trying to prevent anything else would just cause further destruction.
Is it meant to imply Luke seeing Ben kill Han in the future? If so I don’t think that is a good idea.
I recall a shot from TROS where Ben is standing on the edge of the Death Star wreckage, very reminiscent to Wanderer above the Sea of Fog, right before Han appear to him. You could possibly use that shot, and have him standing on that cliff where Luke faded away. You could have Kylo looking at the Ach-To sunset like Luke did, while Rey looks at the sunset on Tatooine (or on a different planet), and maybe there is an applied Force bond between them as they look at each other from across the stars.
EDIT: Would you prefer an ending with Ben in exile? How would you feel about it ending with Ben and Rey together?
Maybe it’s because I was a whopping one years old when it came out, and I’ve been watching the prequels since before I learnt object permanence, but that line never seemed that bad for me.
Honestly would love to see a fan comic. Regardless if it was better/worse/equal to TROS, it would just be cool to see visualized, like the Dark Horse comic for “The Star Wars” rough draft.
I’m going to save those script images when I get a chance, but it might be a good idea for you, Dom, or someone else, to do that as well just in case this user decides to delete these posts.
EDIT: Also, could someone go back and find Making Star Wars’ posts about what he thought was the Trevorrow script but then pack pedaled and said it was the Jack Thorne draft? Some of the concept art from the second draft seems to line up with what he said.
It looks beautiful! So you actually had to add the hangar to the model?