I just feel like we relented and are just trying to see the positives of the story they gave us, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But I guess I wish there was more recognition of the fact that maybe this wasn’t the best direction they could’ve gone in.
It’s so convoluted, though. Why make it so much more complicated than it had to be?
EDIT: Referring to how TROS decided to complicate her backstory.
People can rationalize it all they want and say how it is beautiful storytelling, but I genuinely feel it was because they felt they had to explain Rey’s power to the people in the audience who just couldn’t handle that she didn’t have a special origin.
I think you guys are just trying to rationalize a lazy storytelling decision.
If they wanted to bring him back, maybe they could have set it up better, but it clearly was a decision they didn’t make until the last movie.
You guys talk about how it ties everything in, and good for the poetry and rhyming, I suppose. But I think bringing him back actually hurt the development of the new characters. It gave them less time and agency to come into their own. By the end of it, the new characters are still just overshadow by the legacy characters. I mean, good for you guys to see the silver lining, and maybe there could’ve been a good way to bring him back, but this wasn’t it imo.
Nev, you beautiful bastard. That little island drawing is brilliant! I mean, it is totally seamless, and something that easily could’ve been in the theatrical film. With this little detail, you wouldn’t even necessarily have to have a daydream sequence, tbh. Is that something you drew yourself and stuck into the shot?
Returning to the daydream itself, I’m not sure if still fits the moment completely. I mean, I do think it works as is, but I don’t know if the desert background, music choices, or the addition of porg calls are the best options for this moment. I feel like Ridley’s take on it, which was based on yours, feels a bit closer to something I could’ve pictured in the theatrical version of the film. I do like the softer build-up, having the background dunes match the one’s she was looking at earlier, using music from the film itself, and the dissolve effect that almost gives it a nice mirage-look.
Granted, the use of the trailer music gives us this nice dramatic build-up and drop-off that sort of snaps Rey out of the daydream (which, if you keep it generally as-is, I think it would work even better if you could cut back to Rey just a handful a frames sooner). But, I do think the more subtle approach that Ridley went with fits well with the rest of Rey’s introduction sequence, which generally showed a lot of tasteful restraint, especially for a JJ Abrams film.
Another, unrelated, question I had for you. I was reading back through your change list, and it made it seem like there would be two Kylo prayer sequences. Is that correct? I’m curious how you’ll approach that without it seeming like you’re reusing a lot of material.
I really like your thoughts on the matter, Sherlock!
Instead of the father saving the son, you would have the son save the mother.
I agree that IX would’ve been more interesting to focus solely on Kylo trying to be the big bad as everything fell apart around him. I feel like this could still be accomplished somewhat in a “Palpatine-less” edit, like joshuabri’s edit. I think simply removing Palpatine’s influence naturally gives Kylo a lot more agency in the film. Hopefully joshuabri’s work can lead to more edits that are even more polished.
If I were to do it, I think I would have Kylo not kill Rey out of a brief moment of self-reflection, rather than Leia calling out to him to basically say, “Don’t do that.”
Has anyone done an edit where Leia lives? I’m not really sure how you would manage to do it, though.
I felt like what made Return of the Jedi’s ending special was, when you boiled it down, it is about the atonement between a father and a son. This big, epic legend of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader made it fun to watch, but the father-son dynamic made it personal and relatable by the end of it.
So, if you try to boil down the sequel trilogy and TROS, I think you have to ask yourself what it’s trying to say about family. What lessons does it have that can be applied to our own families?
I think a big thing is the idea that family can be more than blood, and how Rey was kind of adopted into the Skywalker family.
At the same time, we see a reversal of the Luke-Vader dynamic with Ben and his parents. Vader didn’t necessarily deserve Luke’s love and forgiveness, but he still gave it to him. Ben didn’t necessarily deserve his parents love and forgiveness, but they still gave it to him. I think there is a nice message there, where parents and children can make amends despite the mistakes they’ve made, whether they hurt each other or something else.
On the other hand, I can see the value in wanting a story where you have Kylo die not redeemed, with the message that it’s okay to not try to help someone anymore after a certain point if they’re being toxic. As a parent, I don’t know if George would’ve gone that route had he done the Sequel Trilogy, but it definitely comes down to one’s own personal values and philosophy. With Kylo’s story being a reverse Vader story, where he starts conflicted and becomes full-blown villain, it does make sense that he wouldn’t be redeemed in the end. But I also like the idea of a villain having to live and atone of his sins, fighting his wrongs, or living in exile.
To me, the Skywalker Saga isn’t a story about some epic, godlike bloodline. It’s about our own families. And they’re lessons that should be applicable to our own family relationships.
EDIT: With all that said, I think edits with different endings would be cool to see. I’d love to see an edit where Kylo dies without redemption, or one where he lives. I even like Acbagel’s ending, where Rey dies and Ben lives.
Regarding the Corruption episode stuff with the drinks, maybe they could be referred to as “T” because they’re full of liquid Tibanna gas.
Also, I enjoyed you rant on the order of watching the series. I think you’re absolutely right. Since Palpatine=Sidious is sort of treated as a reveal in the context of the prequels, then it makes sense to try to preserve that reveal for ROTS.
I guess this is sort of different, but I also feel like Vader tease in Mortis is a bit too much. Yeah, we all know Anakin is Vader or whatever, but in the context of the prequels, that reveal still doesn’t come until Revenge of the Sith. So, I guess I’m saying I feel like trimming out other forms of blatant foreshadowing should also be considered.
I think I’m in a similar boat as both of you, personally.
I think there are two major themes or ideas that run through the Sequel Trilogy. One is this idea of Found Family, which we get with Rey’s story. The other is a Prodigal Son tale, which we get with Ben. I understand why some people feel that there is no way Ben could have lived, but I think him surviving would have been a more interesting and appropriate conclusion.
Wanted to spur a little bit of discussion.
I feel like the ways both the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy end feels sort of inevitable. Perhaps time has added to this feeling, but Anakin falling to the dark side, and then him being redeemed by his son, feel like these are the only ways these stories could’ve gone.
When it comes to the story of the sequel trilogy and the way they end, I feel like those are harder to pin down. I know George said the sequels were about the “grandchildren” and the torch being passed to them, per se, but I can understand the struggle the writers had when trying to figure this out.
I guess I am curious to hear if people feel like the ending of TROS felt like the right or inevitable ending to them. And if not, what do you think that ending should have been? Could you potentially edit TROS to get closer to that ending you imagined?
https://mega.nz/file/rdMD0KLA#jdDvpvnGc2nIesQbszpXc9MWue8V1qN09hunDjAwWQU
The Kylo Prayer scene with ‘I will finish what he started’.
I think it would be a more difficult line even for Adam Driver, much less my audio-cobbling skills, but maybe it sounds good enough.
If someone wants to send me the ‘Vader’ line from TROS, I can see if that works.
i like it very much! Nearly impossible to hear this is added, especially if someone doesn’t know.
Also i think „he“ works better than „vader“, because ben is reverent towards vader.
Do you mean that his reverence would make him not want to say “Vader”? I’m not sure what you mean.
But yeah, I think the “he” in that test sounds pretty good! I could send you “Vader” later if you want to play around with it.
Honestly, when it comes to fan editing, there is never a reliable ETA on anything.
To be honest, at first I couldn’t tel if you were joking or not.
D-O is the key to all of this.
Lego TFA Kylo Dialogue
0:13 = Even if Lor San Tekka is not, someone here will know where he was going.
0:27 = He means nothing to me.
During the Force Bond duel:
“It was Palpatine who had your parents taken. He was looking for you, but they wouldn’t say where you were. So, he gave the order.”
During the hangar scene:
“Because he saw what you would become.”
Also, “My mother was the daughter of Vader…”
I can’t recall how different the camera movement of the two shots are, but it would be nice if he could just swap out the background footage in that project file. It probably wouldn’t be that easy, knowing our luck.
You can just crop it in a way where you just crop the bottom of the frame instead of the top.
I would say cut it and replace it with this one. Two similar establishing shots back-to-back might seem weird. I also liked the idea someone had to make the entire sequence redder, matching more closely with the color palette of Mustafar from ROTS.
EDIT: Although the new shot is pretty short, so having both might actually work.
Damn, that is impressive work, Nev!
This could work if you only used it in a couple spots. Could do with the Leia change to drive that point home. I think another spot that could help would be after 3PO recounts the events of the trilogy. Always thought this was kind of an odd sequence but I think the point is that the Ewoks hearing their stories inspired them to join their mission to fight. Could add a subtitle or two there to make that clear.
Agreed. I would say the only two places I would put Ewok subtitles would be there, when they chief says they’ll join their fight, and when the chief speaks before/after Leia asks them to release her friends.
Somehow I remember the quality being way worse than it actually is. That could be cleaned up pretty easily. I think between that and some trims (would cut the scene where she falls into his lap) you could patch the issue for the most part.
I guess the first step would be to try and download the best quality version of this video.
If we couldn’t clean it up seamlessly, I think it would be cool to use for a more grainy, Puggo Grande-like version of the film using deleted scenes and alternate takes. I actually think it would be cool to do something similar for all three Original Trilogy films. Like how the Revisited trilogy are “What the Special Editions should have been”, these could be “what the Original Trilogy could have been.”
Luckily the scene doesn’t have to be colorized, since we got that clip from the 40h anniversary BTS reel on the Star Wars YouTube channel.
In that clip, George’s voiceover continues into that scene, but the clip itself seems to begin on the tail end of Han’s line, "You like me because I’m a scoundrel. There aren’t enough scoundrels in your life."
Here is how the scene goes:
CLOSE-UP OF LEIA
LEIA: Afraid?
HAN: You’re trembling.
TWO SHOT OF HAN AND LEIA
LEIA: I’m not trembling.
HAN: You like me because I’m a scoundrel. There aren’t enough scoundrels in your life.
LEIA: I happen to like nice men.
HAN: I am a nice man.
LEIA: No you’re not. You’re-
Han kisses Leia. Cut to wide as 3PO interrupts them.
This is how the scene could go, with that alternate take.
CLOSE-UP OF LEIA
LEIA: Afraid?
HAN: There aren’t enough-
ALTERNATE HAN AND LEIA TWO SHOT
HAN: -scoundrels in you’re life.
LEIA: I happen to like nice men.
HAN: I am a nice man.
LEIA: You are not nice. You are-
Han kisses Leia. Han pulls back, unsure of Leia’s reaction.
LEIA: Okay, hotshot.
Leia kisses Han back. Cut to wide as 3PO interrupts them.
I do like the alternate take, because it does show some vulnerability to Han. When he pulls back, he almost looks guilty, worried that he might’ve been too forward. He gulps, waiting for Leia’s reaction. Leia taking charge of the situation also fits Leia’s character better, I think. Sort of like how Leia took charge of her own rescue in ANH. And it also fits well with the continuity, since in the wide shot where 3PO interrupts them, Leia’s arm is around Han’s neck. She doesn’t put her arm around him in the theatrical close-up two shot, but she does in the alternate take.
At the very least, it would be cool to have this alternate take of this scene, even if you lose a line or two. I guess it then becomes a question of if you can get the color grade to match, and get the music/audio to fit in seamlessly.
I think it would be worth playing around with a few other versions of “he” or “Vader”, because I think it will give the helmet a little more context and fit in better with Snoke and Kylo’s conversations regarding him living up to Vader’s legacy. Have you tried pulling from the Lego game and TROS as well?
I don’t think the ‘you’ in, “Show me, Supreme Leader, and I will finish what you started” would be interpreted as referring to Vader. It seems clearly referring to the Supreme Leader in this sentence. I guess ‘you’ could be be used in a plural noun in this context, as in “you, Vader and Palpatine” or whatever, but I don’t think most people will interpret it that way. I could even see some people being confused and thinking he is referring to Vader as Supreme Leader.
Also, I think Kylo saying he will finish what Snoke started brings up questions about him that are never really answered. What did Snoke start? Destroying Luke’s Jedi? Technically Kylo Ren did that.
I know I’m probably overthinking it but I think changing it, if you can, would just help clarify the scene more.
Man, it’s always a pleasant surprise to see a Starlight update from you!
Using voices instead of flashes for the interrogation is fantastic! It got me really excited my first listen-through.
At first, I wasn’t so sure about Kylo’s prayer being moved here. It seemed weird that he was “praying” to Snoke while looking at Vader’s helmet. But honestly, I think that weirdness came more from how I understood the scene. If I was watching this film for the first time this way, I probably would understand what was going on, and assume that the helmet was something that connected Snoke and Kylo in a way. Maybe Snoke gifted the helmet to Kylo or something. Perhaps if you could have Kylo say, “and I will finish what Vader started” or “I will finish what he started”, and then we see Vader’s helmet, we would still get the idea that Snoke is using Vader’s legacy to manipulate Kylo. This would allow Rey’s line “You’re afraid that you’ll never be as strong as Darth Vader” still make sense, and it also ties into Snoke’s dialogue regarding Vader in TLJ.
I also feel like the audience would be confused why Kylo is feeling the pull to the light all of the sudden. Yes, we do hear Leia’s voice during the interrogation, and I follow the logic of that potentially bringing up some memories in Kylo. I wonder if you could add Poe saying “General Leia” or “Leia” to the voices, to make it clear to the audience that’s whose voice we’re hearing. Perhaps even Kylo could even say, “Leia” or “the General” to acknowledge her. Maybe where he says, “Where is it?” the second to last time, he could mention her, or even say something like, “She gave the order” (Which you could mostly take from TROS) to show he is thinking about her momentarily during the interrogation.
I guess theoretically, we still wouldn’t know either way that Kylo was Leia’s son at this point, so why he is feeling the pull should be a bit of a mystery. Although it hasn’t been spelled out yet, the audience probably knows there is some kind of connection between the audience and the Skywalkers. And then when we realize he is her son, Kylo mentioning her in the interrogation and then talking about the pull to the light in the next scene makes total sense.
This video goes into how his performance could be interpreted as predatory.
It could be interesting to add a bit of their kiss scene back in where Leia says, “Okay, hotshot”, and kisses him back, but I’m not sure how you would cut it to fit it into the scene.
I’m assuming that once V2 is out, discussions for the Rey Nobody version will start.
I think so. If you’re interested in the progress of that, you should definitely keep an eye on the Rey Nobody thread and provide any thoughts/ideas you might have.