RogueLeader

From a fan-editing perspective, I feel like I see two strong directions people tend to lean in.

1. People who want to keep the gist of how TROS played. Just try to improve the movie that is there, even if you don’t agree with every decision.

2. People who liked TLJ tend to hard disagree with TROS’ story decisions more, so they have a stronger inclination to change the film more drastically.

I think the community has done a great job with Ascendant, and imo, it will most likely be seen as the definitive edit that generally keeps most of the story decisions the same. There will eventually be a Rey Nobody version, but the main version keeps Rey Palpatine. The biggest divergence from canon in Ascendant is arguably Leia’s saber color. Since we already have a great edit almost complete that generally sticks with how TROS played out, I think that reason alone makes more drastic changes worth discussing. Changes like having Ben Solo live, or don’t have Palpatine “return” somehow. I actually think a “Solo Lives” alternate ending would be a great topic for EddieDean’s idea of monthly community-driven projects.

With that being said, I would still love to see suggestions for smaller changes that make TROS’ story decisions work better or make more sense.

“The Fuhrer and his army have been hiding in the Southern Hemisphere, in a country called Argentina.”

HumanShield said:

What if the sequels took place after a Cold War type stalemate? The remaining Empire on the fringes and Republic exist with a DMZ boarder.

The fleet at the end is the fleet that always existed.

Starkiller base isn’t a new super weapon in itself and is never used. It breaks the peace treaty by manufacturing death star weaponry to be equipped on their fleet.

Leia’s group isn’t the only force in the galaxy, just the most forward operating group that is allowed by treaty.

I’ve suggested something similar to this. Basically, the New Republic and the First Order have a truce, and most of the action in the trilogy takes place in First Order space.

The First Order in TFA is focused on finding Luke, which doesn’t violate their treaty, but Leia is against this. So, since the Republic can’t take action, she forms a Resistance movement within First Order territory.

Starkiller Base is not a super weapon, and no planet gets destroyed. Then, in TLJ, the Republic can’t help Leia and the Resistance because it is outside of their jurisdiction. First Order territory, First Order rules.

I actually think that you could make it to where the First Order doesn’t really violate the treaty until IX, when it seems like the First Order are going to try and invade the galaxy using their newfound fleet.

It could be cool if you could imply that the First Order attacks the Republic and there is a war going on off-screen, but I feel like you would need new scenes to really make that work.

The pro is that the Republic isn’t destroyed. The con is that the stakes might not be as high since First Order hasn’t taken over the entire galaxy. But since that “war” is never really shown on-screen, you could argue there may as well not even be a galactic scale war.

I’ve been here long enough to know these conversations will never end regardless how much you explain your perspective. I still think these convos are worth having, and I can tell you’ve thought about the series a lot, and I agree with a lot of your opinions. That’s basically all we do here. Share our opinions.

I do generally agree with you somewhat, but I don’t really agree with your tone as people who feel the other way are objectively incorrect on their opinion. It definitely isn’t an explanation. Like you said, maybe audiences can infer it, but there was no attempt to really explain it. It is intentionally a mystery. We’re talking about JJ Abrams after all.

I actually prefer the idea that TFA presents that you laid out, of Snoke being another Force-sensitive being just biding his time, sort of like how Mother Talzin is presented in the Clone Wars. Another Force-sensitive being waiting to fill the vacuum of power.

I think one reason people had issue with Snoke because he just appears to be a copy of the Emperor. Essentially, they’re both just old, pale men in bath robes. At least TLJ gave him golden robes, implying that he has a taste for opulence, which kind of sets him apart from Palpatine. I guess you could argue he was intentionally emulating the Emperor in order to fit that role people would expect of a Supreme Leader. But again, a lot of this is implication, and there is little effort to really explore it at all.

I get that, but I just feel it was totally unnecessary and redundant for her story.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Yup, that’s why I feel it should either be removed or suggested that she knew something was up with her lineage but didn’t know exactly what.

I’d stick to the latter because otherwise the line, “Rey, never be afraid of who you are” doesn’t make much sense, because as far as she is aware Rey is nobody.

Or, you could throw the lineage junk out the window, and just have Leia know she is dealing with that inner darkness. Everybody’s got it. You don’t have to be the descendant of a bad guy to have the potential for evil.
Heck, maybe Leia could have also saw that vision of her on the throne. It doesn’t have to be because she’s a Palpatine.

What? I’m not say Leia trusted Vader. Haha.

What I’m saying is Leia didn’t have an existential crisis about her inner darkness because her father was Vader. Or if she did, she was able to learn to live with it, which could have been advice Rey could have used herself if Leia apparently knew she was a Palpatine.

Yeah, Leia knowing Rey was … sighs… a Palpatine is honestly just dumb. It can be justified however way, but it’s lazy writing.

You would think that if Leia knew this, and that Palpatine was somehow still alive and Rey, his granddaughter, was going on a mission to stop him, that it would be better to find out from Leia, her master and someone she trusts, rather than Kylo or Palpatine, who would use that information to manipulate her.

Imagine Kylo being like,
Kylo: You… are a Palpatine.

Rey: I know.

Kylo: Wait, what?

Rey: Yeah. Leia sat me down and told me already. She really understood what I was going through, since her own father literally tortured her and destroyed her home planet. Despite that, your mother is one of the greatest people in the galaxy, and her heritage didn’t affect who she was and what she stood for at all. So, Palpatine being my grandfather has zero effect on me whatsoever. If her dad being Vader didn’t effect her, Palpatine being my grandfather doesn’t effect me. If anything, it solidifies my resolve to stop Palpatine, because that’s what Luke/Leia did already 30 years ago.

Kylo: Oh… well… I guess you know what you need to do then.

Rey: I do.

SparkySywer said:

RogueLeader said:

For fan editing’s sake, I think it is interesting to think about possible alternative to TROS’ ending.

One option is to have both Rey and Ben live. I can see how this would be an issue for some, because it might not feel right if Ben could literally resurrect Rey without sacrificing his own life. If things were to play out the same way up to this point, I kinda of agree with the sentiment.

Honestly, Rey’s death kind of comes out of absolutely nowhere. I bet it would be easy to justify her just kind of not dying.

That is true. Perhaps one can edit it to where she isn’t dead, or at the very least, on the verge of death. I could see a version of the sequence that plays out really similarly to what we got, but maybe we can hear Rey’s faint heartbeat during the sequence. Ben heals her like she did him, her heartbeat goes back to normal, and she wakes up.

Okay, that sounds like it will work just fine! Thanks for answering that.

Since you added Rey having a little sketch of the island, I sort of think the day dream (at least at this point) is sort of redundant. It is cool, but I also like how the opening doesn’t explicitly show anything that would signify Rey is special, or predestined for anything.

Those are really fantastic thoughts, Burbin! It definitely felt like Rian noticed the narrative repetition when he read the TFA script, so he carried that repetition further, to an extent, in order to get it out of the way and allow the final film to go in a new, fresh direction. But then, TROS repeated a lot of the same story beats as Return of the Jedi anyway.

For fan editing’s sake, I think it is interesting to think about possible alternative to TROS’ ending.

One option is to have both Rey and Ben live. I can see how this would be an issue for some, because it might not feel right if Ben could literally resurrect Rey without sacrificing his own life. If things were to play out the same way up to this point, I kinda of agree with the sentiment.

If you went for a Palpatine-less edit, you could have two options. One, after Rey stabs Kylo, she could leave him to die, and his conversation with Han could be him atoning at death’s door, or in the afterlife.
Or, Rey does heal him and he abandons the dark path. Then, maybe they could meet at the end, with the hint that they may forge a new kind of future together. I actually think Acbagel’s ending is rather interesting, where Rey gives her life to stop Palpatine, and Ben/Kylo’s future is left ambiguous. The Jedi/Sith feud ends on Exegol, and Ben, who is neither, is left to roam the galaxy.

There are several things you could do with the Rey/Ben story, but I feel like the Resistance/First Order subplot can’t really play out much different. Maybe the people’s fleet could recontextualized as the Republic fleet. Or, we could see the First Order actually turn on the Final Order, but I’m not sure how you would be able to get that across. I think it would be interesting if you could imply in TFA and TLJ that other Imperial Remnants exist that the First Order also conquered, and maybe we could see Star Destroyers from these Remnants help defeat the Final Order. These additions might just complicate things though.

I think one of the most inevitable things to me, after watching TFA and TLJ, was Finn leading a stormtrooper rebellion. We barely get this with Jannah, but their impact seems very limited. I wish that idea could be expanded somehow in a fan edit, but I don’t see how.

I just feel like we relented and are just trying to see the positives of the story they gave us, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But I guess I wish there was more recognition of the fact that maybe this wasn’t the best direction they could’ve gone in.

It’s so convoluted, though. Why make it so much more complicated than it had to be?

EDIT: Referring to how TROS decided to complicate her backstory.

People can rationalize it all they want and say how it is beautiful storytelling, but I genuinely feel it was because they felt they had to explain Rey’s power to the people in the audience who just couldn’t handle that she didn’t have a special origin.

I think you guys are just trying to rationalize a lazy storytelling decision.

If they wanted to bring him back, maybe they could have set it up better, but it clearly was a decision they didn’t make until the last movie.

You guys talk about how it ties everything in, and good for the poetry and rhyming, I suppose. But I think bringing him back actually hurt the development of the new characters. It gave them less time and agency to come into their own. By the end of it, the new characters are still just overshadow by the legacy characters. I mean, good for you guys to see the silver lining, and maybe there could’ve been a good way to bring him back, but this wasn’t it imo.

Nev, you beautiful bastard. That little island drawing is brilliant! I mean, it is totally seamless, and something that easily could’ve been in the theatrical film. With this little detail, you wouldn’t even necessarily have to have a daydream sequence, tbh. Is that something you drew yourself and stuck into the shot?

Returning to the daydream itself, I’m not sure if still fits the moment completely. I mean, I do think it works as is, but I don’t know if the desert background, music choices, or the addition of porg calls are the best options for this moment. I feel like Ridley’s take on it, which was based on yours, feels a bit closer to something I could’ve pictured in the theatrical version of the film. I do like the softer build-up, having the background dunes match the one’s she was looking at earlier, using music from the film itself, and the dissolve effect that almost gives it a nice mirage-look.

Granted, the use of the trailer music gives us this nice dramatic build-up and drop-off that sort of snaps Rey out of the daydream (which, if you keep it generally as-is, I think it would work even better if you could cut back to Rey just a handful a frames sooner). But, I do think the more subtle approach that Ridley went with fits well with the rest of Rey’s introduction sequence, which generally showed a lot of tasteful restraint, especially for a JJ Abrams film.

Another, unrelated, question I had for you. I was reading back through your change list, and it made it seem like there would be two Kylo prayer sequences. Is that correct? I’m curious how you’ll approach that without it seeming like you’re reusing a lot of material.

I really like your thoughts on the matter, Sherlock!

Instead of the father saving the son, you would have the son save the mother.

I agree that IX would’ve been more interesting to focus solely on Kylo trying to be the big bad as everything fell apart around him. I feel like this could still be accomplished somewhat in a “Palpatine-less” edit, like joshuabri’s edit. I think simply removing Palpatine’s influence naturally gives Kylo a lot more agency in the film. Hopefully joshuabri’s work can lead to more edits that are even more polished.

If I were to do it, I think I would have Kylo not kill Rey out of a brief moment of self-reflection, rather than Leia calling out to him to basically say, “Don’t do that.”

Has anyone done an edit where Leia lives? I’m not really sure how you would manage to do it, though.

I felt like what made Return of the Jedi’s ending special was, when you boiled it down, it is about the atonement between a father and a son. This big, epic legend of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader made it fun to watch, but the father-son dynamic made it personal and relatable by the end of it.

So, if you try to boil down the sequel trilogy and TROS, I think you have to ask yourself what it’s trying to say about family. What lessons does it have that can be applied to our own families?

I think a big thing is the idea that family can be more than blood, and how Rey was kind of adopted into the Skywalker family.

At the same time, we see a reversal of the Luke-Vader dynamic with Ben and his parents. Vader didn’t necessarily deserve Luke’s love and forgiveness, but he still gave it to him. Ben didn’t necessarily deserve his parents love and forgiveness, but they still gave it to him. I think there is a nice message there, where parents and children can make amends despite the mistakes they’ve made, whether they hurt each other or something else.

On the other hand, I can see the value in wanting a story where you have Kylo die not redeemed, with the message that it’s okay to not try to help someone anymore after a certain point if they’re being toxic. As a parent, I don’t know if George would’ve gone that route had he done the Sequel Trilogy, but it definitely comes down to one’s own personal values and philosophy. With Kylo’s story being a reverse Vader story, where he starts conflicted and becomes full-blown villain, it does make sense that he wouldn’t be redeemed in the end. But I also like the idea of a villain having to live and atone of his sins, fighting his wrongs, or living in exile.

To me, the Skywalker Saga isn’t a story about some epic, godlike bloodline. It’s about our own families. And they’re lessons that should be applicable to our own family relationships.

EDIT: With all that said, I think edits with different endings would be cool to see. I’d love to see an edit where Kylo dies without redemption, or one where he lives. I even like Acbagel’s ending, where Rey dies and Ben lives.

Regarding the Corruption episode stuff with the drinks, maybe they could be referred to as “T” because they’re full of liquid Tibanna gas.

Also, I enjoyed you rant on the order of watching the series. I think you’re absolutely right. Since Palpatine=Sidious is sort of treated as a reveal in the context of the prequels, then it makes sense to try to preserve that reveal for ROTS.

I guess this is sort of different, but I also feel like Vader tease in Mortis is a bit too much. Yeah, we all know Anakin is Vader or whatever, but in the context of the prequels, that reveal still doesn’t come until Revenge of the Sith. So, I guess I’m saying I feel like trimming out other forms of blatant foreshadowing should also be considered.

I think I’m in a similar boat as both of you, personally.

I think there are two major themes or ideas that run through the Sequel Trilogy. One is this idea of Found Family, which we get with Rey’s story. The other is a Prodigal Son tale, which we get with Ben. I understand why some people feel that there is no way Ben could have lived, but I think him surviving would have been a more interesting and appropriate conclusion.

Wanted to spur a little bit of discussion.

I feel like the ways both the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy end feels sort of inevitable. Perhaps time has added to this feeling, but Anakin falling to the dark side, and then him being redeemed by his son, feel like these are the only ways these stories could’ve gone.

When it comes to the story of the sequel trilogy and the way they end, I feel like those are harder to pin down. I know George said the sequels were about the “grandchildren” and the torch being passed to them, per se, but I can understand the struggle the writers had when trying to figure this out.

I guess I am curious to hear if people feel like the ending of TROS felt like the right or inevitable ending to them. And if not, what do you think that ending should have been? Could you potentially edit TROS to get closer to that ending you imagined?

CMMAP said:

NeverarGreat said:

https://mega.nz/file/rdMD0KLA#jdDvpvnGc2nIesQbszpXc9MWue8V1qN09hunDjAwWQU

The Kylo Prayer scene with ‘I will finish what he started’.

I think it would be a more difficult line even for Adam Driver, much less my audio-cobbling skills, but maybe it sounds good enough.

If someone wants to send me the ‘Vader’ line from TROS, I can see if that works.

i like it very much! Nearly impossible to hear this is added, especially if someone doesn’t know.
Also i think „he“ works better than „vader“, because ben is reverent towards vader.

Do you mean that his reverence would make him not want to say “Vader”? I’m not sure what you mean.

But yeah, I think the “he” in that test sounds pretty good! I could send you “Vader” later if you want to play around with it.

Honestly, when it comes to fan editing, there is never a reliable ETA on anything.

To be honest, at first I couldn’t tel if you were joking or not.

D-O is the key to all of this.