I wasn’t disagreeing with what you’re trying talk about in this scene, just trying to talk about the phrasing. But honestly it’s not a big deal.
I feel like this phrasing just feels strange. You have that first sentence, “Nobody has claim to those the Force made” followed by, “That choice belongs to you”. What “choice” are you referring to? I feel like the preceding sentence needs to reference some kind of choice. Your origin isn’t something you can choose. Something like “our past doesn’t determine our future, that choice belongs to you” could work better and not be as wordy.
A lot of the dialogue you have written is good, but I do feel some lines feel more verbose/wordy while a lot of Star Wars dialogue feels simple/poetic. Don’t know if that makes sense.
Thanks, Snooker!
@Starkiller
I mean, it would basically imply that the same amount as Ascendant does. But no version of the movie makes it 100% unambiguously clear that he won’t return. I mean he basically spelled out he won’t but even then it isn’t 100%.
I like the idea that Nev had to make it clear that it’s Exegol itself, and specifically the Sith Throne (maybe acting as a conduit for this powerful nexus of the dark side), is Palpatine’s secret to cheating death. So if an edit were to accomplish that vision of having Rey deflect Palpatine’s lightning at the throne and destroying it, it would make that clear. I think the Force ghosts appearing in Ascendant helps with that too, but that it would make a difference in keeping Palpatine from returning again is still just implied. And honestly, the potential of Palpatine just returning again seems like a logical question people in-universe might ask if he apparently has learned how to cheat death.
But the point is that it doesn’t matter if Palpatine comes back again or not. Palpatine coming back was worst-case scenario. This isn’t trying to say the exact same thing is gonna happen every 30 years. Some bad thing will eventually threaten peace in the galaxy again. Palpatine is the embodiment of evil, so he just kind of represents that for the Skywalker Saga. And this is the end of the Skywalker Saga so I agree this should be the end of Palpatine too.
@Nev
I think something vague like, “forging a new destiny” could be good.
Kinda speaking toward your idea of making Rey’s potential death a part of the visions, I like the idea of the visions centering around the concept of either Rey or Kylo dying. Only one can survive, one can rule, according to Palpatine (Maybe speaks to the selfishness inherent to the dark side). And it makes their duel on the Death Star feel inevitable, fated even.
So, it pits Kylo’s two desires against each other. Does he wants to rule/win, or does he want to be with Rey? In TLJ, he tries to have it both ways, but Rey refuses him. So what if this time, he is explicitly telling Rey that he would rather be with her than to rule? This might surprise or shock Rey, but Rey still refuses him, because she would essentially be abandoning her friends and her mission. And even though it is still a selfish choice for Kylo, it is a step down from wanting to be a dictator, which helps ease the audience into his redemption and the kiss him and Rey share at the end of the film. Because saying he wants to run away with her is a stronger hint to the audience that his desire to be with her is more romantic than political. Him saying something like, “we can rule the galaxy together”, “forge a new destiny”, “nothing will stand in our way”, still implies to the audience that his interest in Rey may have more to do with the power their alliance could bring rather than being interested in Rey herself. I feel like this is why a lot of general audience members felt their kiss came out of left field. There wasn’t enough explicit dialogue about them actually wanting to “be” together in a romantic way.
The dagger stuff is interesting. I’m gonna have to think about it more/read more of your thoughts about it. I will say initially it feels like could be a complicated plot point to have to explain, but I’ve come around to your ideas a lot! It might work well for Palpatine lying about Rey being a Palpatine though.
I kinda lean toward the least amount time we spend talking about the MacGuffins, the better. And just accept Exegol, the Sith Throne, the Wayfinders, the Sith Dagger as all ancient Sith relics designed to hide Exegol from anyone who wasn’t worthy/a dark side user.
@Hadrian
I could see having to explain Abeloth would be really exposition heavy for audiences, and Abeloth wouldn’t really mean anything to anyone outside of Legends fans. But I don’t think Palpatine is necessarily obsessed with possessing Rey. I think he would have been more than fine if Kylo had killed her, but since she defeated him and found her way to Exegol, she proved herself a worthy enough vessel. But that could play differently depending on what angle an editor chooses to take.
@Eddie
This is something I’ve thought about a lot, and I think a lot of people, including myself, have felt the ST should have concluded in a way that makes it clear that something new will come along and this cycle is finally broken, but that’s not exactly where I’m at right now. For starters, I don’t know if there is enough content in the film to really paint that picture. And two, I don’t know if a potential future Rey film would contradict that, although I’m not letting myself be overly worried about stepping on the toes of a hypothetical future movie.
I don’t think the solution is that Rey breaks the cycle. I mean maybe she did, by destroying Palpatine, but it’s kind of left ambiguous. No one ever says, “the Sith are finally dead for good”. The solution, at least to me, is that the cycle is an inherent part of the Star Wars universe. Even if the Sith are gone for good, do you really think future Star Wars content won’t have other dark side users, or Jedi that will fall to the dark side?
The answer has to be that Rey, Ben, future Jedi, etc., have to accept that as long as people exist, there will always be good people and bad people. A perfect system that stops bad things from happening will never exist. There will always be selfless people and selfish people. But despite this constant struggle, the good in the universe is worth fighting to protect.
I feel like this Qui-Gon from the canon novel Master and Apprentice embodies this idea well, and maybe it could even be adapted in some form for the Jedi voices scene at the climax of the film.
Qui-Gon: It matters which side we choose. Even if there will never be more light than darkness. Even if there can be no more joy in the galaxy than there is pain. For every action we undertake, for every word we speak, for every life we touch—it matters. I don’t turn toward the light because it means someday I’ll ‘win’ some sort of cosmic game. I turn toward it because it is the light
You could even potentially expand on this issue further with Luke in TLJ. You could give him new dialogue where he says he thought that he had fixed the flaws of the old Jedi Order, but despite that Ben still fell. This fits with Legends too, because Luke did change a lot of the rules with his New Jedi Order, but many of his students still fell to the dark side. You could even explore the idea of Luke and Ben/Kylo coming to the same conclusion, and both wanting to break the cycle in different ways. Luke thought if the Jedi ended, he could snuff out the Sith’s fire and thus break the cycle, then maybe something pure can be reborn from the ashes. Kylo felt he must destroy the Jedi, and then the Sith, in order to start a new order in his image. But in the end they were both wrong. You can’t break the cycle, you can’t stop change, whether it be good and bad. That is a part of life. But that doesn’t mean people must sit back and do nothing about it.
Not super related but it makes me think of this quote.
Anakin: I don’t want things to change.
Shmi: But you can’t stop the change, no more than you can stop the suns from setting.
The dark side will always exist. Evil will always exist. And in times of peace dark forces will eventually rise again. But that doesn’t mean there is no point in fighting against that evil. So in my mind, that is why Rey proclaims herself a Jedi at the end of the film. Calling herself a Jedi is an act of rebellion against this absurd cycle. It’s saying, “I don’t care if I can’t stop the cycle, I’m going to resist it regardless”. She’ll fight for good because it’s worth fighting for, no matter how impermanent peace is. And that not only speaks to the issue of the Sith and the Jedi, but also with the New Republic/First Order.
But regardless, the movie is open ended enough to make the audience wonder if the cycle is broken, or has changed the state of the galaxy for good. Maybe it has, but whether or not evil will rise again doesn’t matter, because Rey and our heroes have accepted the fact that they will face whatever threats may rise, because it’s the right thing to do.
Does any of that make sense?
Yes, I think most of the changes would be the dialogue in those scenes. At the very least the final half of the hangar scene, when he asks her to join her. It isn’t to join him and rule the galaxy, but to come with him and run away. And if you listen to his dialogue on the Death Star in kind of flows into that idea. He wants to run away because he thinks he’s too far gone, and he’s trying to convince Rey is too.
And I think their Death Star duel would be more motivated by Rey wanting to fight Kylo rather than Kylo wanting to fight her. I kind of imagine a version of the story that leans more into Rey slowly being corrupted by the dark side (through the visions, the dagger, etc.) over the course of the movie.
Kylo’s motivations could be like this:
Plan A - get Rey to run away with him
Plan B - if Rey refuses, kill her so he can claim the Sith throne/fleet.
At this point he may be accepting his fate, but sees Rey as his only escape. And if you’re going with a Rey Nobody edit, perhaps this is because he sees that Rey was never part of Palpatine’s plan. A variable he didn’t account for, couldn’t see.
I also always liked the idea of cutting Kylo’s line, “The only way you’re getting to Exegol is with me”, and just have him destroy the Wayfinder because it makes you wonder why he does it. To protect his new fleet or to maybe protect Rey?
And it could be interesting if, through the visions, Rey and Kylo were more directly pitted against each other. Like Kylo could tell Rey, “either you will take the throne or I will, but one of us will kill the other”. And Kylo is leaning into Rey inevitably giving into her darkness, into power, to get what she wants/save who she loves. It’s inevitable like Palpatine returning was inevitable. Power corrupts. Join the Sith and save your new family vs Be a Jedi and sacrifice your life or theirs.
Again, I think you could spin it several ways depending your version of Rey’s origin. If it was Rey Nobody, then Kylo would basically be like, “Palpatine is the conclusion of a plan a thousand years in the making. My family was a product of the Force itself and were still corrupted by him. You’re no one, how do you think you can resist him?” In my mind the dark side/Palpatine/the Throne is very much like a Sauron/the Ring situation. This powerful corrupting force. Like a black hole that drags down any good intentions. But it being representative of our negative qualities like greed and selfishness that we must always live with and struggle against. And Rey being representative of how anybody can be consumed by those things. None of us our immune.
(Speaking of black holes, I think it would be interesting to depict Exegol as a planet orbiting a black hole to make it more visually distinct and to add something to the idea of why Exegol is such a powerful nexus of the dark side.)
Ever since your idea about the Sith Throne, I like the idea of a big theme to carry through this movie is Selflessness vs Selfishness, and I think this would play into that well. Kylo wanting to just get away from it all also kind of makes me think of how Han is in ANH, only to show up and save the day in the end.
Also, sort of unrelated, but if you didn’t want to use the “dyad” term you could use a “vergence in the Force” as a more generic term for some special for thing. When Palpatine says “dyad” his mouth is out of Focus so it could be modified without it being super noticeable.
Speculation because it’s fun:
When Luthen’s bolsheviks are inevitably split from Mon and Bail’s mensheviks, I think Mon will do so in part by leveraging religion as the basis of the Alliance.
We know that the younger generation of Chandrilans (esp on Coruscant) are more conservative than Vel and Mon’s generation, and the Empire is starting to stamp out local customs in the wake of Aldhani. Leida’s mystic tradwife fixation - as negatively as that is portrayed - is still a rebellion in this context (wouldn’t be exempt from PORD), and I think Mon will begin to take advantage of that. The Force and other fundamental mysticism could become a political tool for a religious [or more broadly, cultural] revolution against a coldly secular Empire; rebellion gaining favor and involvement from younger generations like the Chandrilan youth, even students (similar to Nemik) opposed to Imperial seculonationalist hegemony - sorta like the Iranian revolution.
“May The Force Be With You” becomes a common rebel refrain. A wider populace is definitely onboard by Rogue One, not just the convicts, criminals, or tragically displaced that we [mostly] started with in Andor.
Importantly, Mon Mothma’s vibes between BBY 5 and BBY 0+ are very different. If the old ways of Chandrila are the deal with the devil she makes in season 1, I think she will continue to make that deal as a political face of this rebellion. The frumpy modesty of her ROTJ look might now read as martyrdom in old Chandrila’s tradcatch ideology; she’s renouncing the materialism of an Imperial Senator, re-committed to the Old Ways.
My theory is that this will be a big source of the sectarian rebel tensions in the lead-up to the Alliance. Like I alluded to above, Luthen is basically a bolshevik accelerationist. Revolution on his terms is dirty, brutal, and spearheaded by a professional vanguard of gangsters and spies. Mon’s canonical call for Open Rebellion is the inevitable clash with that clandestine exclusivity, but I think what’s added to it with the development of a culture and religion rally, is that for once there might be a tangible, coherent ideology to the so-called “Alliance to Restore The Republic”, one that addresses what exactly makes The Empire more evil than the Old Republic.
It’s always been a fandom talking point that Palpatine’s Clone War Republic was already The Empire, but this route would clearly define “A Republic” as an intergalacticist aspiration, not just a misguided return to what failed before. The Force unifier as culture commonality, not just faith in Jedi or magical will. Empire dilutes and destroys heritage and identity, that’ll be the populist throughline of the rebellion, pre Death Star.
Andor’s already made a really solid examination of imperialistic genocide in real terms (displacement, culture loss / limit) and not just overt violence with everything that happens on Aldhani and Ferrix. My hope for season 2 is that those threads are picked up in a real way further, the pieces are all there.
Surprised no one responded to this. Great write-up! The way Mon’s wardrobe “downgrades” by the OT is something I had thought about and this is an interesting way to explain it in-universe. Also, like you said, “May the Force be with you” being a rallying call for the rebellion with a capital R.
I almost don’t want to think about it too much in case this doesn’t come to fruition! Love hearing your thoughts on this.
Was reading some of the recent threads and had a thought that I wanted to throw out there. Try to erase preconceived ideas that you might have and really try to consider some of my reasoning. Even if that reasoning takes you to a different conclusion I’d love to hear it.
I feel like a theme that edits of the ST can emphasize is this idea of the “Star Wars” cycle. That the forces of good and evil, the dark and the light, perpetually rise and fall. Edits like Nev’s Starlight do a great job at turning TFA’s weaknesses into strengths by making the movie’s repetition of ANH feel more purposeful. Obviously fans watch it and think, “wow, this is all happening AGAIN?”, but I think the movies can be strengthened if it feels like that’s an intentional point rather than a consequence of not having any better ideas.
With Kylo, for example, I think it would be interesting if in TFA, Kylo’s motivations are illustrated either through a vision from Vader’s mask, or through the voice of Vader’s “ghost”, telling him if the Jedi are not destroyed, there will be a “civil war without end”. So Kylo believes he could bring peace to the galaxy by ending the endless conflict between the Jedi and the Sith.
In TLJ, this is already expanded upon by Kylo without necessarily having to add anything (but I think it could be expanded on more by Luke but that’s for another post). Clearly Snoke sees Kylo as the heir to Vader, the continuation of the Sith, but we discover Kylo has other plans. After he kills Snoke, he makes his motivations clear to Rey in that he wants to end both the Jedi AND the Sith in order to bring a new order to the galaxy. This is presumably in hopes of stopping the endless Force war that has plagued the universe. Maybe Kylo is just tired of being tied to that destiny/legacy and wants to start over. After Rey rejects him, it is unclear if his plans have changed. On Crait, it still seems his goals are to end the Jedi.
With TROS, I have been thinking about Kylo’s motivations more in regards to this idea. Both the theatrical movie and many edits play it so Kylo is going through the motions of being allied with Palpatine, but clearly has goals of his own. In some ways this feels like a repeat of TLJ, with Kylo offering Rey basically the same thing he did in the last movie. Why are we to believe Rey would accept it now? It also isn’t clear how Kylo’s vision of galactic dominance is different from Palpatine’s. Really, they are just two slightly different versions of the same flavor without any additional context. Kylo walks like a Sith and talks like a Sith. Again, maybe that’s the point, but Rey nor anyone else addresses this really.
It made me wonder, what genuinely would be Kylo’s reaction to discovering that his whole life has been manipulated by Palpatine? The guiding voice of his grandfather, his mentorship from Snoke and Kylo’s apparent victory over him, were all just a part of Palpatine’s plan. We never really see Kylo reflect on this revelation. In reality, you would think he would be hit even harder by this discovery than Rey would be by her own revelation. Palpatine’s lies has made Kylo do terrible things, kill people he loved. You could argue Kylo is just in denial, or just trying to be stoic in the face of the truth. Maybe he’s desperately holding on to what semblance of control he has left, but this isn’t really explored much.
I also considered what this reveal of Palpatine means for the audience? Obviously, a lot of people were like “what? Really?” It also made people question what the point of Anakin being the chosen one was. Did he not bring balance to the Force? If he gets killed again would it even matter since he came back before?
With that in mind, I wonder how it would look if Kylo embodied those questions the audience would naturally have. I think the film tried to have their cake and eat it too by having both Palpatine back as a big bad, but also try to still give Kylo agency. But it feels muddled. What if they just leaned into it and had Kylo react the opposite way? When Kylo learns the truth, what if Kylo just loses all hope in his goals and submits to fate? He’s trapped and his destiny is to be Palpatine’s successor. It’s what he has been groomed for his whole life. He can accept or die. Accept, or all he did was for nothing. Sunk cost fallacy.
In a way, fans became pessimistic/nihilistic about Star Wars and the future of the franchise with the ST, some after TLJ but definitely most after TROS. I feel like a part of that had to do with Palpatine’s return, among other things, so it could be interesting if Kylo reached his lowest point in this episode, becoming totally nihilistic in a similar way after discovering that his whole life and purpose was basically a lie, and that nothing he really does matters because evil can’t be destroyed.
I like the idea that after seeing how Kylo chose Rey over Snoke, Palpatine would try to get Kylo to join him in a different way by saying that he can turn Rey if he brings her to Exegol, but I dunno if that would present problems or not. Otherwise, he could tell Kylo that she isn’t just his enemy, but his competitor, and that if she reaches Exegol she will turn. But, only one of them can rule. And if she makes it, she’ll kill Kylo.
One downside of Kylo “sort of” serving Palpatine is that this makes Kylo similar to Vader in Return of the Jedi, but again, maybe that is the point. Arguably that similarity already exists in the film as-is. And he could still be made different in other ways. Perhaps in the hangar scene, he could tell Rey that only one of them can rule, and to save her friends, she will kill him and take the throne. One of them will have to kill the other (or maybe they’ll both inevitably join Palpatine if you go the other route) But when Kylo offers her to join him, he could be actually say something like, “Palpatine cannot be stopped. If we kill him, he may just return again. But we could run away, together, and be free from all of this.”
I feel like that would be a surprising thing for Kylo to say, but it makes sense. Kylo has discovered his whole life has been orchestrated. He has been a slave to Palpatine’s plans, like his grandfather. But he sees a way out with Rey. At this point you could understand that all he might want is freedom. “I want to be free of this pain”. He wants to be free from these machinations, fate, destiny, ideas that have haunted him and his family for generations.
It also parallels Padmé and Leia. In Ep3, Padmé wanted Anakin to run away with her when she confronted him on Mustafar. In Ep6, when Luke reveals to Leia their family connection, Leia urges Luke to run far away and leave so he doesn’t have to confront Vader.
So basically, Kylo’s motivations go like this across the trilogy:
-> Destroy the Jedi to break the Jedi-Sith Cycle
-> Destroy the Jedi AND the Sith to break the Jedi-Sith Cycle and bring a new order to the galaxy
-> Once he realizes his motivations have just been lies, he rightly says, “Fuck this shit I’m out.” (Ironically, introducing Palpatine as the man behind the curtain of Kylo’s past made Kylo lose a bit of his agency. If Kylo’s new plan was just to totally escape and get away from Palpatine, it would kind of give Kylo some of that agency back in a way that isn’t just repeating what he did with Snoke.)
-> After his duel with Rey, potentially considering death when looking out over the roaring waves below the Death Star wreckage?
-> After Leia saves him, he realizes that his mother was right, and freedom for everyone is worth fighting for no matter how impermanent it may be.
Speaking of Leia, I also like how this would highlight what Leia represents. To me, Leia represents hope (like Luke). At this point in the story, Kylo would be totally hopeless, believing that Palpatine cannot be outsmarted or defeated. The ultimate Sith. The embodiment of evil. But when Leia sacrifices herself and gives a part of her life to Ben (if you go with Nev’s/SherlockPotter’s idea for the scene) that hope shifts to him. I think this idea would fit well in an edit that features Kylo being haunted by memories of his father’s words from TFA, and maybe “hearing” him being the thing that stops Kylo from killing Rey.
I also think that if his motivation shifts to wanting to run away with Rey, it sort of would make his redemption feel more like a natural progression. Because at that point, he has realized everything he thought was for the greater good was actually wrong. He was actually wrong. He has accepted that his whole identity, his entire purpose and the sacrifices he made were all a lie. Which feels like it should’ve been the obvious thing for Kylo to conclude and ponder on after realizing Palpatine was behind it all. And then his whole conflict with Rey is more about Kylo trying to force Rey to realize her inner darkness and accept that if she confronts Palpatine, she would inevitably fall too. Palpatine used him, and he’ll use her too. If Kylo thinks he can’t even overcome Palpatine, then what chance does Rey have? And I think this all would speak to what he says to Rey on the Death Star, at this point he is just trying to convince Rey that she can’t go back. They’re too messed up to go back.
And I think, big picture-wise, but I think the angle that the story of the ST could be more clearly focused on is about how evil persists, but despite that fact good people persist too, and the good in this world is worth fighting for. So the question of whether or not Palpatine will return again, or if balance is temporary or permanently restored, doesn’t matter and fine left as an ambiguity because the point is that good people will always rise to face evil.
And I think this angle for Kylo’s story could work for any version of the Rey backstory you might want to go with.
Voice lines turned out great!
I like this draft of the dialogue. Provides some ambiguity to keep the audience guessing, but hits the same beats.
In some of my versions of the first Rey and Kylo Force bond scene that I’ve written, I have Kylo say this.
Kylo: Palpatine wants you dead.
Rey: Serving another master?
Kylo: He lies. I have other plans.
Something like that could potentially benefit this type of plot. Kind of hammering in Palpatine as a deceiver, one who lies to manipulate.
It would if you just had Kylo remembering Han’s words in TFA. You could potentially have Kylo hear both of their voices, like stream of consciousness.
I think removing Rey’s parents actually being good is more than worth cutting the whatever shots/lines necessary to do so. I just think it totally disrespects the audience to go back on that story decision. Guess that could be an endless subjective argument though. But I think you could keep more than one would initially think if you can get creative.
Well, if you wanted Rey to hate Palpatine there are plenty of reasons besides making her parents good people. If Palpatine intentionally left Rey there, she could hate him for the life he made for her. She could hate him for just making her in the first place. For trying to be the master of her fate. Or, if you kept it simple and just focused on future visions, she could hate him for being a threat to her new family. Or just projecting her fears of herself onto him. He’s what she could become. She fears he is right. Sure, if you want to keep it simple you could just make it because he killed her actually good parents. I just don’t think that is the most compelling reason, and felt that was one of the reasons for fan editing this film in the first place.
Also don’t mean to throw off y’all’s flow. Just popping to give some food for thought. I just did like you coming to the angle of Rey as a dark creation, and maybe not blatantly a clone. Could be a clone still though. I still think the clone idea is better than Rey as Palpatine’s granddaughter. But I will say I do think the angle of her parents maybe being bad, having second thoughts and then getting killed for it does make sense.
I think something that feels like a contradiction or requires an explanation that is narratively bending over backwards for is her good parents leaving her with a scumbag like Unkar Plutt to “protect her”. It doesn’t really make sense. And trying to explain it feels like a complicated fan theory.
I think if you make Anakin and Rey both Palpatine’s creations, then it sort of makes her and Kylo related in a weird way? So the romance aspect would be a little awkward. I don’t think you would have to explain it. I actually an issue with a lot of these write ups is feels like too much exposition and not enough character stuff, imo.
I actually wrote up a post sort of touching on this idea but I didn’t share because y’all were on a role with the clone stuff, but I share it now since it is sort of on-topic. Some of this will be redundant I’m sure.
Since TROS heavily references Palpatine’s Darth Plagueis story, and how Palpatine continued his work on “cheating death”, I could see the benefit of Rey being the final product of his work to “create life”.
“Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life. He had such a knowledge of the dark side, he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.”
“To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.”
Just to reference, here is the wiki article that discusses the Legends book Darth Plagueis, specifically his experiments to create life:
The Grand Experiment was conceived by the Sith Lord Darth Plagueis’s desire to create a life form by gaining control of the midi-chlorians, the sentient microscopic organisms that enabled certain beings to wield the power of the Force. Not only did the Dark Lord deem the project a failure, his efforts ultimately backfired and caused the midi-chlorians to create Anakin Skywalker, the prophesied Chosen One of Jedi legend who was destined to restore balance to the Force by destroying the Sith.
During the final years of the Galactic Republic, the Sith Lords Darth Plagueis and his apprentice, Darth Sidious, conducted the Grand Experiment on the moon Sojourn in 42 BBY. Utilizing Sith alchemy and the dark side of the Force, Plagueis intended to create the living embodiment of the Force. In order to do so, he tried to influence the midi-chlorians in his attempt to create life. But when his efforts bore no success, and instead wiped out his other experiments, Plagueis deemed the project a failure. Years later, during the Crisis on Naboo in 32 BBY, Plagueis was surprised to discover the existence of Anakin Skywalker, a young Human boy born without a father. Plagueis concluded that not only had the midi-chlorians resisted his will, but they had also retaliated by engineering the conception of the Jedi Order’s long-awaited Chosen One, a Jedi destined to restore balance to the Force by destroying the Sith.
Unlike his master, however, Darth Sidious saw the discovery of Skywalker as an opportunity; the chance to use the Jedi’s own legend to the Sith’s advantage. After he assassinated Plagueis, Sidious—under the guise of his public persona as Supreme Chancellor Palpatine—befriended the young padawan, and intended to slowly corrupt him over the years until Skywalker submitted to the dark side—a goal in which he ultimately succeeded.However, Anakin was eventually redeemed and, turning his back on his Master and the dark side, slew the Emperor before he himself perished.
So if you were going off this version of the lore, if Anakin/the Chosen One was a reaction by the Force itself to Plagueis’ failed experiment, what if Palpatine succeeded at his experiment, and that experiment was Rey? There’s been a lot of fan theories that Anakin was made by Palpatine, even an earlier draft of ROTS said as much, but according to canon he isn’t. So what if Rey was instead?
If you wanted to say the Force reacted to this second experiment, perhaps that’s what the Dyad was.
My problem with a lot of these rewrites is that they’re still overly complicated in my opinion. And I wonder if instead of trying to make a complicated backstory as for why she ends up on Jakku if her parents were good or bad, what if Palpatine intentionally wanted her to be raised on this harsh, violent environment with no family? If she couldn’t survive this harsh environment, she wouldn’t be worthy or strong enough to be a Sith, or his vessel. It would explain why she was left with a crappy guy like Unkar Plutt, which doesn’t make sense in any version of the story where her parents are trying to protect her.
She would sort of be like Darth Bane. Bane lived in a harsh environment and had a terrible father, but that shaped him into who he became. Palpatine was trying to replicate those factors so both nature and nurture would push her toward the Dark Side. And this would give her all the more reason for her to hate Palpatine, which he wants so he can possess her.
This would still give you similar parallels to what Abrams and Terrio tried to do. Anakin was the literal Force messiah, a kind boy, but he was twisted by greed into a terrible person. Rey could be his opposite, the Force Anti-Christ, growing up in a rough environment with terrible parents, but despite all of that she became a kind-hearted person. And maybe the bond between Rey and Kylo Ren formed because they are both connected to the Force in a unique way. Yes, Kylo is the grandson of Anakin, but through him he is still a product of the Force, just like Rey is.
“Why did the Emperor come from me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”
“He didn’t. He learned how to create life, but knew that what didn’t kill it would make it stronger.
You, were made by Palpatine, to take the throne.
My family came from the light, and you, the dark side. But what Palpatine doesn’t know is that we’re a dyad in the Force, Rey. Two that are one. Together, we’ll bring true balance to the Force.”
What I like about something like this is that the implication here is that it is sort of vague enough that the theatrical Rey Palpatine still sort of fits. The main difference being that Palpatine/Ochi leaving her on Jakku was intentional, and her parents were truly nobodies. So all of that bullshit makes more sense. Rey was made by Palpatine, but she isn’t his grandchild in the biological sense (she could be, or even a clone, but it’s left vague) The one question would be if Palpatine picked out Rey’s parents in particular, or Palpatine performed some ritual or whatever but didn’t know where his experiment ended up. I’m leaning towards the former, since Jakku kind of is a great environment to raise a survivor. Seems like Palpatine may have chosen the location. But I also think it is boring if you try to bog the movie down in lingo and exposition.
It’s nice because the audience isn’t left with the question, “Palpatine fucks?!”, but it’s also different than what Luke or Anakin faced. If it is just a question of her having Palpatine’s blood, well it’s not really compelling in a new way because Luke faced the dilemma of blood and overcame it. It’s not really interesting to see Rey answer the same question.
You also don’t have to directly reference the Chosen One prophecy, if you prefer prequel edits that don’t refer to it, but the parallel is still there. Kylo Ren is just explaining it and referring to it in a general way.
Later on Ahch-To, Luke could say, “Because you’re from Palpatine?”
And Luke’s line “some things are stronger than blood” can reference Leia and Rey having a strong bond despite not being blood-related, rather than referring to her being blood-related to Palpatine. But that suggestion can still sort of be there, or relate to being a product of the Dark Side.
Yeah, you could just change all of his lines and give him a new voice. It’s not like he has a ton of lines.
I think if we are trying to find the most agreeable version of Rey Nobody for Ascendant, making Rey a clone of Palpatine doesn’t make sense. To me, Clone Rey should replace the standard Rey Palpatine, not be the version of Rey Nobody. Because Clone Rey still defeats the idea and theme of Rey Nobody. Imo, in a Rey Nobody edit, Rey should have zero previous connection to Palpatine or anyone else.
But I think something like Rey Clone or Rey Anti-Chosen One (Sith’ari) could replace a straight up “You’re Palpatine biological granddaughter”. Because you end up with the same point (the Skywalkers vs Palpatines if you’re into that) but avoid the whole idea of “Palpatine Fucks”.
Maybe I’m playing the role of pessimist but I feel like if I heard this Rey Clone dialogue in theaters, I would’ve rolled my eyes at it just as much as I did with the theatrical Rey Palpatine reveal. Sure, it’s different, but it still betrays the point of the the Rey Nobody reveal in TLJ.
Again, I guess this is just me voicing my point of view, but I believe the most inoffensive version of Rey Nobody would be one that just focuses on her visions of the future and Rey’s sense of self-worth, and doesn’t try to reveal more about Rey’s backstory. This way, Rey Palpatine could technically still be canon to that version, but it just isn’t brought up or mentioned in the film.
I feel like there are tons of movies and stories are out there where our hero has to confront the villain and be tempted to join their side and they’re not related to the villain.
Happy holidays Sherlock!
Great work on what you have done so far for you edit! I have posted much but I’ve been keeping up with yours.
This version of the hangar scene is nice! I’m curious how you got some of the lines for Kylo. Some work but there are some that feel a little off. I wonder if his last masked line could be “Save the galaxy” or something so you get a little less redundancy with the word “everyone”. It still fits with saving everyone, but maybe speaks a little to Kylo’s motivations.
Also, this is more of a thought I’ve had in general about the scene, but I think a rescore of this scene, plus slightly trimming the “reveal” moment, would go a long way to help make new dialogue like your fit more seamlessly. It still feels like the way the camera dollies in on Rey, her reaction, and the swelling music, really feels like it is building up to some big moment of impact. I don’t feel like Kylo’s current dialogue (which I like) totally fits the way the scene plays out with the editing and the music, if that makes sense. I might be wrong, but it could be interesting for someone to play around with.
Anyway, good work Sherlock!
Congrats NFB! Very well-deserved.
I like the ideas. Granted, it does give Kylo less of a reason to reforge his mask which Ascendant fixes pretty well. Then again, I never had much of an issue with that to begin with. I’d be curious to see what else you can come up with here.
Sure, Ascendant gives us flashbacks to ‘a creature in a mask’, but I don’t think that is a reason for Kylo to reforge it. If anything, I’d think Kylo would want to connect with Rey without the mask to interfere, so that Rey would view him as more of a person.
I think the most coherent reason for the reforging (other than rule of cool) is simply that he’s ‘serving another master’ but with an ulterior motive, so the helmet would mask his expressions while also visually signifying that he’s taking the role of Vader in Palpatine’s orbit. I don’t think we can get a deeper character reason, so to go from meeting Palpatine to the mask reforging would strengthen that concept.
Ascendent already does give a motivation with the Knights of Ren voices. Wearing the mask could partly be due to obligation toward his Knights. Perhaps the emergence of Palpatine, or this new mission to hunt down Rey, is sort of why he is doing it now and not sooner. But it could be a combo of the Knights of Ren, and like you said, signifying his role in Palpatine’s orbit, as you said.
Honestly, what the Knights are exactly are kept pretty vague, but I feel like you could elaborate here and there a little.
For example, when the helmet is being reforged, you can have one of the Knights say, “May our bond never again be broken” (I think broken would sound better than shattered, which I think is currently the word used in the Ascendent version). And then, as he is putting it on, the Knights could chant something like, “Long live the Sith”. Which I think would demonstrate that although they are loyal to Kylo, they worship the Sith. So when Palpatine reappeared, they are also loyal to him and would explain why the Knights fight Kylo on Exegol.
I’m pretty sure a new line does exist here in Ascendant, but when the Knights of Ren pass the stormtroopers in the hallway, I think it could be nice for the second stormtrooper could say, “Jedi hunters”, just to clarify what exactly their job description is. Sort of like the Imperial officer in Empire Strikes Back saying, “Bounty hunters. We don’t need that scum” to clarify to the audience who these guys are exactly.
Looking retrospectively back at the other movies, I think it would be nice if there could be some way to hint at Snoke’s affiliation with the Sith as well. Whether it be Snoke stating his goal to bring back the Sith, and/or someone else describing Snoke as a Sith cultist himself. It would make sense to do so, since he already walks and talks like a Sith. And, after Kylo kills him, Kylo explicitly says it is time for both the Jedi AND the Sith to die, which I don’t think Kylo would’ve said if Snoke did not affiliate himself with the Sith.
I think the question regarding Snoke is, if he was so powerful in the Force, why didn’t he proclaim himself as a Sith? Of course we know he was made by Palpatine, but what did Snoke tell Kylo about himself? At the very least, it did appear that Snoke saw Kylo as the heir to the Sith, or at least that is what he told Kylo. It would be nice if there was even a little clarification for this in the first two movies.
It does seem like the dagger would have been made recently by Ochi, doesn’t it? It may be easier to find one moment to state that somewhere rather than change several moments to make the blade seem older.
If the blade was made, say, fifteen years ago, then it would even make sense to keep the goonies moment in.
But why would he create a dagger with a shape resembling the death star wreck?
So we can have a Goonies moment. I’m sure it was a visual JJ realized would be cool regardless of logic.
I think these are really good points and ideas. RotJ really works at the end because Luke faces so much temptation. Rey has a tending towards the dark but that temptation could really be emphasised.
Speaking of the dagger, now that it operates by whisper rather than the absolutely contrived pointing, it’s remaining flaw as a plot device is that the good guys stumble upon it in an absolute quirk of chance. Perhaps it could be implied that it’s somehow drawn Rey to it- either through Palpatine’s machinations or its own.
Maybe after they fall into the tunnels, after Finn says, “Which way out of here?”, we could change Rey’s off screen line from “We have to hurry” to something like, “Wait, I sense something this way…” after she turns away from camera.
And like Dimitrios mentioned, perhaps we could squeeze in a line from Lando about the caves, but I’m not sure how it could/should be phrased. If Lando mentions the caves, then the audience will wonder why him and Luke didn’t check them if Lando knows about them. And I don’t think there is enough time during their scene with Lando for him to really rationalize it. Maybe he could say, “Maybe he fell in the sinking fields”. Again, may run into the same problem.
I like those write ups btw Starkiller! Really need to play around with making clean audio for those two scenes so people can play around with them.
See, but still mentioning “where the last war ended” kind of defeats the purpose of changing the inscription to feel more ancient.
You could have it where right as Babu goes “Hey-aye!” after 3PO delivers the message, the room immediately shakes and they go check to see what it is, leaving no time for comment. You could even add Poe saying off-screen “Useless…” as he walks up to 3PO as Rey goes upstairs.
Then, when they’re running in the streets, you could cut the “move your metal ass” bit and have Poe say something about trying to get dagger, or splitting up to get it. Or just having one of them saying it when they’re on the Star Destroyer. Cut the brief scene of them shooting all of the cameras and Rey saying they need the dagger and Poe asking why.
Finally, when Finn and Rey are working on the Falcon after they escape, this is where you can reinsert Finn’s line off screen, “Endor? Where the last war ended?” This tells the audience that Rey has told the others about what she heard from the dagger in Kylo’s chambers.
If we wanted to make the dagger something ancient, and the description more generic, you could give it an inscription like this:
“To be worthy of the Wayfinder,
the final test for the great Sith secret,
One must wield this blade,
Sacrifice their light,
And embrace the call to the dark.
Only this blade knows, only this blade tells.”
On the Redux thread I mentioned the idea of adding intelligible whispers to the Sith whispering, so when she picks it up in Kylo’s chambers, maybe over the Sith whispering we can also hear a faint whisper of the word(s), “Endor… Death Star…” Perhaps Rey’s eyes could turn faintly yellow just to indicate Rey is tapping into the dark.
If you wanted to just show a flash of the Death Star, you could change the word “knows” to “shows” in the inscription.
And then, when Rey is standing on the cliff edge, and when she traversing through the Death Star wreckage, we hears specific whispers like, “Come”, “Follow”, “Here”, etc. It would be a nice touch if the whispers were coming from specific audio channels depending on the direction the Wayfinder is.
Nev, does Rey really have to be connected to the dagger and Ochi and the ship? I feel like all of this can be changed, and trying to stick with it really just limits what you can do with this movie. You said you wanted to perform a full appendectomy. I think THIS is what needs to be removed here.
Why don’t we cut out all of the plot bullshit and make these scenes more character-focused conversations? To me, talking about Rey’s parents being killed by Palpatine, or some prophecy that she is tied to, is not compelling or relatable. It’s all exposition. There are no “scenes”, it’s all just plot. Set piece to set piece. I’m truly wondering if the conversation was just more general, like Kylo making an argument for the dark side, if it could be worded in a way that is actually compelling for an audience. At least more compelling than trying to communicate a complicated previously unknown origin story for Rey. Are there ways that we can make this conversation go in a way that can make people think about their own moments of weakness? To think about times we wanted to take the quick and easy path to get what we wanted? Or how we might really be bad people and we’re just fooling ourselves by trying to avoid that truth?
I just think this could be a great opportunity to put a little more meat on the bones of this movie. If you think about a lot of moments in the other Star Wars movies that we love, oftentimes the things the characters talk about or say are things we can somehow apply to our own lives and experiences. Like when Yoda talks about the Force. We might not believe in the Force, but think of the way Yoda describes it, “life creates it, makes it grow, it’s energy surrounds us, and binds us. Luminous being are we, not this crude matter”. I think a lot of people can’t help but feel something spiritual when they hear this. It’s vague enough to be applicable to us regardless of our religious views. Or this conversation on the dark side:
Luke: Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know. When you are calm, at peace, passive.
See? There’s no lore or plot mumbo jumbo. Yoda’s not talking about kyber crystals or philosophies of the Ashla and the Bogan. It’s the good side and the bad. I feel like a lot of fans heard this conversation about the dark side and couldn’t help but relate it to their real life experience in some way. “Would I be able to recognize the difference between doing the the good thing or the bad?”
My initial pitch for the duel convo basically boiled down to Kylo telling Rey that she has power, but can’t control it. And that he could help her learn how to. But I’m wondering if it could be something that is a little more clear or consistent with how the dark side is portrayed in the rest of the franchise. So, what if Kylo said stuff about how Rey is screwing herself over by trying to bottle up the dark side within her?
No idea for specifics, just spitballing, but here are some examples of lines he could say:
You’re not ready to face Palpatine. You don’t have enough time. But the dark side can get you where you need to be.
You’re holding back.
The dark side is a part of you. If you don’t accept it, it will tear you apart. Without it, you are unbalanced. You’re losing yourself. And you will lose your friends too.
I can’t find the video, but there’s one Rise of Skywalker review that discusses the Chewie “death” scene. In it, the reviewer states that if Rey could’ve used the dark side and succeeded at what she was trying to accomplish, it would’ve made the potential of her falling more believable. Even though we can’t really change that, I think we can get a similar idea across with what we’re given. I think we (and through the film, Kylo) have to frame Rey’ hurting and potentially hurting her friends as a product of her inability to accept the dark side within her. She’s holding back, bottling it up. And because of that, it erupts at the worst moments. She can’t accomplish her goals. And during the Force bond duel, you could even have Kylo reference Nev’s version of their forest duel in TFA, where she tapped into the dark side and actually defeated him. Proving his point.
You could even frame their encounter on Pasaana all as Kylo intentionally testing her. When he is flying towards her, he could say, “Do it” or “Show me” in his cockpit. When the Knights of Ren see Chewbacca, maybe they could even say something like, “The bait.” All of it was just to show Rey how unbalanced she is. She’s strong but she’s a mess. The dark side is the quick and easy path, and Rey is out of time to train (which would tie into her obsession with training more at the beginning of the film). Even though I think the film is better off with the removal of the clearly stated time period they are racing against, I do think having the sense of a race against the clock that the movie has helps as another argument for why Rey might give in. She’s out of time to train, she’s not strong enough.
And you can even tie the McGuffin’s into this. We already kind of have with the dagger whispering to Rey, but what if the whispering started off unintelligible, but by the time she reaches the Wayfinder, we can hear actual words. Maybe some of it is actual directions, like, “Come. Follow. Higher. Closer.”, but maybe we could also hear the Sith code being recited hypnotically, or pieces of it. Or maybe words that sew more doubt into her. “Unworthy. Not ready. Unbalanced. Lost. Weak. Alone.” Stuff like that. I could even picture a version of the approach where the whispers are now a chorus of load shouting, yelling over each other, almost symbolic of anxiety or someone’s inner voices feeding into their insecurities. Just to the point of being overwhelming, Rey grabs the Wayfinder and… silence. Relief. But just as she thinks she is free, the manifestation of her insecurities appears before her. And then she fights it, and when Dark Rey sneers at her, we can have it say “Weak!” in a sneering tone to match. The whole quest and encounter should just be digging into Rey’s doubts and insecurities.
While I don’t think any new revelations should be given about her parents, Kylo could maybe even suggest that her parents may have given her up because they were afraid of her (Like his parents may have been afraid of him).
And that ties into another thought I had. What could make the new dialogue scenes even greater is if we added some subtext to it. For example, Kylo might be going on and on about Rey’s problems, not committing to the dark side or whatever, but we know that he still also struggles with that. Even after everything, he still feels the pull to the light. His parents have been like an anchor, keeping him from being pulled into the riptide of the dark side despite his best efforts.
And maybe that ties into what he is offering Rey that is different than Palpatine. If she joins Palpatine, she’ll go full dark. But if she joins Kylo, maybe he think they can achieve some misguided view of balance. She can be his anchor and he can be hers. Kylo might be thinking, “maybe that’s why I still feel the pull to the light”. If she shifts closer to the dark, he’ll shift closer to the light. They’ll find peace, he’ll finally be at peace. And that might even help set up this idea Nev is beautifully playing with m Kylo’s conscience (in the voice of Han) staying his hand the moment before he kills Rey. He thinks Rey is gonna fix his problems, but the solution to his inner peace is actually within himself.
Nev, I actually was initially surprised you wanted to drop the dyad idea, at least explicitly, but I’ve realized that his opinion on that actually perfectly lines up with what I’ve been saying on this post. So yeah, now I agree with Nev that maybe Kylo and Rey’s connection doesn’t need to be named per se. Maybe even when Palpatine first gets a taste of their Force bond, you could change his lines from “A dyad in the Force. A power like life itself. Unseen for generations” to something else. Those first two sentences are said on screen but Palpatine’s face is out of focus so perhaps it could be changed. But I like the idea that Palpatine zaps them, feels it, and is like, “What the hell is this? I’ve never seen anything like this.” I just like the idea that despite all of his power and planning, Palpatine would fail to comprehend the possibility of a bond between two people, enhanced by the Force, being so powerful.
Anyway, I’m sorry I just keep saying the same stuff over and over again. Maybe it’s just me, and I can stop if it’s getting annoying. I just feel like the solution is in simplifying things, and I worry that trying to invent a new elaborate backstory for Rey is missing what is important in order to make Rey’s journey in this movie more relatable and compelling.
I was gonna offer helping with the audio transitions but I’m so happy NFB is helping out! It’s cool that y’all are collaborating.
I also think your logic for the order of who finds out about the Aldhani heist makes sense.
