I will replace the facial scar on Kylo (which looks different in TLJ) and remove Chewie from the scene where he should have been hugged by Leia, so those shots will be completed some time in the foreseeable future.
Doin’ the Lord’s work.
Yeah, it’s definitely more pulpy than poetic, I think. But that isn’t a bad thing either.
I’m not 100% on the “consumed in dark meditation” part, but I think Nev’s crawl is pretty solid though. I think segueing from Leia to Luke is pretty smooth, and a good hook to end on his name.
The legends Wookiepedia page for slavery does say, “Another method was placing transmitters inside their bodies. Any attempt to escape caused the transmitter to explode, killing the slave. However, this method had the drawback of resulting in the destruction of the slave and loss of property.”
Not sure if that is just referring to the slave itself or surrounding property!
Ooo, that’s good.
If you replaced “Luke Skywalker” with “Princess Leia” in the second paragraph, should you change “young Skywalker” to “Luke Skywalker” or “young Luke Skywalker”?
EXACTLY.
The best part of the MCU.
Thank you for this.
It’s given a passing mention in AOTC as Anakin goes to see Watto, who has long since sold her to Cliegg Lars, who freed her.
Whether anyone besides Oola, (and her royal replacement) in Jabba’s palace is a slave is up for debate.
Oola, and slave Leia to a degree, are good examples too. I think they’re definitely slaves, (hence Slave Leia) but it definitely doesn’t seem like they have slave implants. Which backs up Frank’s point.
EDIT: Though if a junk dealer like Watto could afford implants for his slaves, you’d think Jabba could too. Unless he just didn’t like them for whatever reason.
@Dom
It’s funny because I knew you were going to say that. I noticed that too, but it didn’t bother me as much. I get what you’re saying though.
It would sort of be like if the ANH crawl ended like:
Pursued by the Empire’s sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans…
When it’s actually
Pursued by the Empire’s sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy….
It’s just missing a little something extra maybe. If you really wanted to add a little extra maybe you could do something like
The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with capturing Luke Skywalker, dispatches thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space until the Rebel Alliance is found…
-rebel base/outpost
-Alliance
Not sure if it’s grammatically correct.
I agree about the TLJ. That makes sense. I’ll experiment with them a little bit more, but let me know if you guys prefer any of those new alternatives or have any other ideas.
The pedanticism in this discussion’s so high it belongs in a stoner flick.
We’re using this thread as sort of a writer’s table for the Clerks 3 script.
@Nev
I think it is implied that he did buy her. I definitely don’t think she had a slave implant since Unkar never used it on her. She’s not Unkar’s property, though, more like an employee.
So she isn’t a slave, technically, but she lives in slave-like conditions. That’s what I think at least.
@SilverWook
Haha, exactly. Some people seem to forget that!
Even if freeing her was against the Jedi’s rules, why didn’t Padmé go back and free her? She’s a queen! She has the means. Plus, Shmi was the one who gave Anakin consent to be in the podrace, so she really should be thanking her too. Just buy her and set her up in a nice apartment in Theed. Thanks a lot Padmé!
I would be surprised if they revealed anymore about her parents in IX. I honestly think that story is done. Although I still think that line about them being buried somewhere in the Jakku desert seemingly contradicts Rey seeing a ship fly away from Jakku in her vision. It would be nice for that discrepancy to be clarified.
@Frank
That’s very true! Just because one instance shows that doesn’t mean it’s the same across the galaxy.
This is probably a Tomato/Tomahto situation, but you could think of her as more of an indentured servant rather than a slave.
It seems like most “slaves” in the galaxy have implants that slave-owners can detonate if they try to escape. Anakin and Shmi mention having them in TPM, and it could be another justification for why Finn and Rose couldn’t really do anything to help the slave children escape on Canto Bight for the very brief time they were around them.
Obviously Rey doesn’t have one of these implants because Unkar Plutt never retaliates. Now, I think most of the people who live at Nima Outpost are practically slaves of Unkar Plutt, since he is there only means of food on Jakku, but he doesn’t own them. So they’re more like slaves to the system rather than being property of Unkar Plutt himself. They don’t have to collect scrap for food if they don’t want to, but they’ll probably starve if they don’t.
So I’m guessing Unkar just bought Rey so she was stuck at Nima Outpost, and then had her become dependent on his junk for food system.
Thanks for the feedback guys. I appreciate the different perspectives.
@Nev
I think you raise a good point about the First Order’s goals.
While clearly the First Order officers wish to restore the Empire to its former glory, it is interesting that the crawl decides to focus on their mission to destroy Luke Skywalker. I personally think this is because this is Supreme Leader Snoke’s first priority. Because it is, it has become a part of the First Order’s main objective.
I think one thing you have to decide is whether or not to make that their stated objective in the crawl, or that they want to return to power, like your crawl does and Hal’s restructured crawl also does.
I’m not saying I really prefer one or another, but I wanted to make some points why focusing on the FO wanting to find Skywalker might be important.
First, in the first scene of the film, they are also after the map to Skywalker. Pretty much their whole mission in the film revolves around getting that map. Destroying the Republic, at least for Snoke, is merely a means to an end in order to prevent Skywalker from returning to the fight.
Also wanted to point out Snoke’s line the film:
“The droid will soon be delivered to the Resistance, leading them to the last Jedi. If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise… Our strategy must now change.”
I also wonder if making their stated goal, to return to power, would hurt the audience opinion on the Republic since they would find the First Order’s goals obvious, so they would wonder why the Republic wasn’t doing anything about it. If the crawl focuses more on their hunt for Skywalker, well, the Republic might not be as concerned if they think the First Order’s focus isn’t on them. Does that make sense?
Though if we do decide the “return to power” angle is better, I think the way you have it worded, “with ambitions to restore their fallen Empire” is one of my favorite variations yet. You’re basically saying that the phrase “restore their fallen Empire” helps get the idea across that FO wants to return the Empire to its former glory, which is why their tech seems upgraded, clearly militarizig, and of course be building a super weapon to fit in with the philosophy of the Tarkin Doctrine. That does make sense. Still prefer “uncharted space” though!
But I think my obsession with making the crawl’s have a focus on Luke/the Jedi is because Luke is sort of the thesis statement of these new films. Luke Skywalker has vanished, but we need him to save/unite the galaxy. So tying the stakes of the conflict with finding Luke emphasizes why that is important.
In the theatrical crawl, it says Leia wants Luke’s help to restore peace/freedom to the galaxy, but I want it to feel like finding Luke is critical to their mission’s success. Everything is riding on this.
While I don’t think hope needs to be restored just yet in the story, if you have a phrase like I had, “Convinced that the Jedi are their key to victory” or some variation of it, you would still be emphasizing Luke’s importance while still setting up the FO goal of restoring their power. Since Luke is crucial to a Republic/Resistance victory or advantage, of course the FO would be trying to stop that. And a line similar to, “Leia has sent her best pilot to find Luke before their new enemy reaches him first” would still establish finding Luke also as the FO’s current objective while still having the broad goals mentioned in the first paragraph. I think it also helps create a sense of urgency even before the movie really starts. Who will find Luke first?
@Dom
I appreciate your perspective about the “First Order spies” angle, I feel I kept bugging Nev about how that angle was perfect and should use it for his crawl, but I’ve been reading different opinions and have slowly been coming to a similar conclusion as you. And I think Nev said the same thing to me. "If the Republic has already been compromised, is it already a lost cause?” is another point I’ve heard. While it has been compromised in canon, maybe it wouldn’t be best to emphasize that angle.
And like you said, it is a little bit truer to that theme in the new films.
"With the New Republic unwilling to start another war, General Leia Organa mobilizes a private/covert Resistance to counter the rise of this growing Imperial remnant.”
Another reason I like this phrase is that allows you add a little extra info that the First Order is an Imperial Remnant, if the first paragraph is too wordy and felt you need to cut/move a bit of FO information.
So, you have could have a first paragraph like,
"Luke Skywalker has vanished. The mysterious FIRST ORDER has emerged from uncharted space and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.” or sort a variation of Nev’s, “In his absence, the mysterious FIRST ORDER has emerged from desolate space with ambitions to restore their fallen Empire.”
To TLJ
Intersting perspective. I don’t necessarily hate, but I am surprised how highly you think of it! Also curious what your issues are with the Empire crawl. I aways felt that it should have said “led by Princess Leia” rather than “led by Luke Skywalker” but didn’t really have any problems outside of that.
I totally get what you’re saying. The first paragraph is meant to emphasize the dire situation the galaxy is in. I think for me, I just don’t want it to feel like the Republic is completely gone with a snap of a finger, back to square one. I kind of think the Republic should still be at least mentioned beyond being “decimated". I also don’t like how D’Qar is referred to as a “rebel base”. Personally, I don’t like how they were so quick to revert to calling themselves “rebels” before the fight has barely even started. So let me propose a version with very light changes, rather than be totally overhauled.
The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the Republic capital, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.
Only General Leia Organa’s band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against this rising tyranny, certain that Jedi Master Luke Skywalker will return and restore hope to the New Republic.
But the Resistance has been exposed. As the First Order speeds toward their vulnerable base, the brave heroes mount a desperate escape….
-Having decimated/destroyed the Republic capital/the Senate/Republic Senate/Republic homeworld/Republic leadership
-to seize military control of the galaxy/New Republic/Republic
-restore hope to the crippled New Republic.
-to what remains of the New Republic
-return and reunite the shattered/fractured New Republic.
I actually think I would prefer something like this with minimal changes.
I remember the whole idea of cost-effectiveness being another rationalization for the base, especially since the new canon seems to imply that Starkiller Base is Ilum, the planet the Jedi would go to to get their lightsabers crystals. After the Jedi Purge, the Empire basically mined Ilum for its kyber crystals to the point where you could see the planet’s molten core from space. This makes it seem like the Empire had already dug the hole for the First Order, and they just had to fill it in.
But yeah, when Poe is like, “this was the Death Star… THIS is Starkiller Base!", were they expecting the audience to be like, “Woah! It’s so big!” It’s like they thought Starkiller Base could work if we can make it even bigger and badder than the last two Death Stars!
I almost wish Poe had said, “This was the Death Star… and this was the SECOND Death Star… but THIS is Starkiller Base!”
I almost feel like pointing out the size just makes it worse, like they’re trying to make it seem like a bigger threat by literally making bigger, which feels like lazy writing. I wonder if the size had not been as drastic, or if there was just one massive hole in the base rather than a giant semicircular trench, it would be a little bit more acceptable. I think editors would be better off just cutting some of those lines and just go from “It’s another Death Star!” to “How is possible to power a weapon of that size?” More skilled editors could insert a gas giant or planet near Starkiller Base to establish the base as a moon to help deemphasize its scale, but it’s probably not that big of a deal.
OPENING CRAWL IDEAS FOR TFA AND TLJ
So recently I have been messing around with the opening crawls for TFA and TLJ some more, but I’m at a point where I could use some outside advice. I feel like one of the more universally agreed upon complaints for the new movies is that there is not enough context for the political situation.
Regarding The First Order
There’s no explanation of the First Order outside of “risen from the ashes of the Empire”, which sounds cool, but leaves a lot of unanswered questions:
-How big is the First Order?
-Where did they get their resources?
-Is the Republic aware of them?
There just feels like a disconnect because the First Order in TFA seems better equipped than the Empire was in ROTJ. Didn’t the Empire lose? How have they continued to advance their technology?
You can’t really change those things without making some radical changes, so they need to be addressed, preferably in a concise way.
So maybe we can set the the First Order up better by trying to say something like “they’re a mysterious Imperial remnant hiding in uncharted space that is secretly being funded by Imperial sympathizers and/or crime lords.” This is pretty close to the canon explanation.
The only other thing I could think of that you could say would be something referring to Snoke, depending on if we ever get more info about him. I’ll make a few Snoke-related suggestions just for the sake of it.
So What About The Republic?
First of all, I want to refer to them as the “New Republic” because they are only referred to that once in the whole film. I think explaining the Republic is kind of difficult without the Republic feeling incompetent, but I will list a few options:
-In the theatrical, we get “With the support of the Republic, General Leia…” Hux also claims that the New Republic is secretly supporting the Resistance. But with the lack of information, it seems like the Republic is just choosing to ignore the problem. Like they are complacent to the First Order’s rise. Maybe that is the point, but it seems frustrating to most people. According to the canon, though, it seems like the Republic government is not really supporting Leia’s actions. Maybe a few senators back it, but not the Republic as a whole. Also, the deleted scene where Leia says, “Not all the senators think I’m insane.” Seems to corroborate this, so the theatrical crawl is a little misleading. If the Republic is supporting Leia, then it must be explained why the Republic doesn’t engage the First Order themselves.
-I originally suggested the phrasing, “Failing to convince the New Republic to combat this emerging threat” for Hal’s Restructured crawl. I do think this works, but overtime I do still think it makes the New Republic seem incompetent.
-Another option could be to emphasize that Leia forms the Resistance because she believes First Order spies and sympathizers have infiltrated and compromised the New Republic. Canon seems to agree with this idea, with there being a number of senators trying to undermine the Senate in service of the First Order. This would add a hint of espionage in the backstory, as well as justify why a separate faction outside of the Republic was necessary. Though some might argue that this might put the New Republic in an even worse light.
Though there are bits of info in the film to back this idea up. The criminal Tasu Leech, the Gauvian Death Gang leader, clearly is a First Order informant. So is the woman at Maz’s Cantina, and Finn asks Han if there would be First Order sympathizers in her cantina as well.
-A final option, maybe you could say that while the New Republic is seeking a diplomatic solution, Leia forms the Resistance on her own to prevent the First Order from growing any further. It seems like the New Republic is aware of the First Order, so there is probably some truth to this. And I know other have suggested similar ideas to this.
The thing is, there is truth to all of these options. In canon, it does seem that Leia tried and failed to convince the Republic to go to war with the First Order, who preferred trying to deal with the situation through diplomacy. Leia also came to the conclusion that First Order sympathizers had infiltrated the Senate, so forming a private military force was necessary not only because the Republic refused to engage them, but also to avoid being spied on by First Order spies within the larger Republic.
I think it is just deciding which part of that is the most important to focus on.
I should also note that I currently think that Starkiller Base or a superweapon should be mentioned in the crawl. Yes, mentioning it allows for you to set up its existence at the beginning of the movie. But, I think by mentioning it in the crawl, it makes the New Republic seem even more incompetent because to the audience, we know that the First Order has a superweapon so why aren’t they doing anything?
But if the weapon is revealed to the audience within the film itself, then I think the audience will realize that it must be a secret. If we didn’t know about it, the Republic probably doesn’t know about.
And honestly, I feel like Starkiller Base is so inconsequential to the big picture that I would rather not give it anymore attention than it already has.
So basically with this crawl, I’m trying to address the politics a little more, as well as emphasizing that finding Luke is important to this fight.
I will first list a full possible crawl, then bullet points some alternative phrases or wording.
THE FORCE AWAKENS
Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, a mysterious Imperial remnant, known as the FIRST ORDER, has emerged from uncharted space and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.
Fearing that First Order spies have infiltrated the New Republic, General Leia Organa mobilizes a covert Resistance to prevent their corruption from spreading further into the galaxy.
Convinced that the Jedi are their key to victory, Leia has sent her best pilot to find her lost brother, Luke, before their dangerous new enemy reaches him first…
-a remnant of the Empire known as
-has emerged from hiding
-In his absence, a remnant of the Empire known as THE FIRST ORDER, secretly supported by crime lords and Imperial sympathizers, will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.
-secretly funded by Imperial sympathizers
-secretly supported by rich Imperial sympathizers
-an Imperial remnant known as the First Order has made a rich/resourceful/influential dark side master from the Unknown Regions/uncharted space their leader and
-First Order has allied with a powerful master of the dark side
-First Order, led by an arcane master of the Force from uncharted space, will not rest…-Convinced that the First Order
-have infiltrated/compromised the New Republic
-Believing that the Jedi are
-With the New Republic unwilling to start another war, General Leia Organa mobilizes a private/covert Resistance to counter the rise of this growing Imperial remnant.
-While the New Republic seeks a diplomatic solution,-this/their dangerous new enemy/new threat
-reaches the last Jedi….
-reaches the last Jedi first…
Moving On…
So with the Last Jedi, there are two major things I want to focus on:
The Last Jedi crawl begins with “The First Order Reigns”. Technically this isn’t really true yet, since Rey says that it will still take weeks for the First Order to seize control of all the major systems.
It also makes the New Republic feel even more pointless because the crawl makes it sound like they are completely gone. The thing is, this makes it sound like Hosnian Prime and the Senate were the entirety of the Republic. If Washington DC and the US’ largest military base was destroyed on the same day, would the United States cease to exist? Of course not!
I know the New Republic was much smaller than the Galactic Republic, but after 30 years of rebuilding they must have had hundreds, if not thousands of member worlds by now. While the New Republic did not have a standing army anywhere near the scale of the Empire or the Grand Army of the Republic during the Clone Wars, they did still had a defense force probably comparable to the Old Republic. And even if the majority of their fleet was at Hosnian Prime (maybe ordered there by First Order sympathizers right before the attack?), surely there still would be a few Republic vessels out there.
Not only that, but the reason the New Republic felt that a large standing army wasn’t necessary was because they also could call on the defense forces of various Republic member-worlds.
In my personal opinion, while the militaries of individual planets probably are no match for the First Order, if they were united, they could probably stand a chance against them.
But, that is exactly why Hux knew it was crucial to take out the Senate. They’ve cut off the Republic’s head, and now the body doesn’t know what to do. It’s a divide and conquer strategy. While some systems might prepare to fight, others might surrender first. But without the Senate’s leadership, most Republic worlds will probably choose to fortify their own systems rather than join forces with others against the First Order because there is no clear leader to unite them.
This is why Leia is so desperate to find Luke. Not only is he the only person who could stand toe-to-toe with Snoke and her fallen son Kylo Ren, but also the Jedi symbolize hope, and their legendary status could be enough to unite the galaxy against the First Order.
So that is the purpose of this crawl rewrite, to make the rest of the galaxy feel a little more important and active instead of just this one small corner of it, and also to help tie the Resistance/First Order and the Jedi plot more closely together. Yes, we hear Rey say, “The galaxy needs the Jedi back”, but why?? Hopefully this explanation makes the “why” a little clearer.
Some of these lines were originally written by Noodle Flinger.
THE LAST JEDI
-Chaos reigns.
-A dark force rises.
-A galaxy in chaos!
War rages across the galaxy. Without their leadership, what remains of the fractured New Republic struggles to fight back as countless systems fall to the decisive First Order.
Holding on to hope, General Leia Organa and her brave Resistance believe that only the power of the Jedi has a chance at uniting the galaxy against this great threat.
But the Resistance has been exposed.
As the First Order speeds toward their vulnerable base, the fate of the galaxy rests on their escape…-A galaxy in chaos! Both the evil FIRST ORDER and the brave RESISTANCE have been catastrophically decimated, each desperate to snuff out the other and fill the power vacuum left by the extinction of the Republic.(Noodle Flinger’s original opening paragraph)
-A galaxy in chaos! Both the evil FIRST ORDER and the shattered NEW REPUBLIC have been catastrophically decimated, each desperate to snuff out the other and fill the power vacuum left by the destruction of the Senate.
-each fighting for control of countless worlds and fill the power vacuum left by the destruction of the Senate.
-each fighting for control after the destruction of the Senate.
-each desperate to fill the power vacuum left by the destruction of the Senate.-Believing that the Jedi are their key to victory, Resistance General Leia Organa lives in hope that her brother, Luke Skywalker, will return to reunite the galaxy against this great evil.
-uniting/reuniting the Republic against this rising evil.
-her loyal Resistance
-only the Jedi have a chance at
-base, the brave heroes mount a desperate escape…I should also note that I want to try to use the word “galaxy” only once in this crawl.
I like Noodle Flinger’s crawl because it reminds the audience that the First Order also suffered some losses in the last film. But the Resistance really didn’t lose anything besides a few X-Wings, so that’s why I listed a few alternatives to it. Regardless, do you thinking referring to that would still gel with the idea that First Order will be able to take over all the major systems within weeks, as Rey says to Luke? Genuinely curious on your thoughts.
I’m seeking any advice or opinions on the crawls or the alternatives I have listed. I’m not trying to set up a major story restructure or anything like that, I’m just trying to clarify and improve the political situation through the crawls. I’m also trying to have crawls that don’t necessarily contradict the canon if I can help it. The only exception being the stuff I mentioned about wanting the New Republic to not just be totally gone after the Hosnian Cataclysm. Because personally, I do think if the First Order just pressed one button and completely erased the Republic from existence, it makes the conflict in the OT slightly pointless, or at least undermined, if we’re right back at Rebels versus Empire. At least this way, the galaxy is in complete chaos and war has erupted all across the galaxy, which is pretty different from the OT scenario.
I don’t think any of these changes will contradict Episode IX, especially if there is going to be a time jump. But knowing us, we’re all probably going to make fan edits of the next film anyway!
PLEASE share any thoughts or opinions you might have, and thanks for reading this far. Any lines or phrases you liked the most? I would really like to figure out solid crawls for future edits so any notes would be appreciated.
Haha, never expected to see a Fiddler on the Roof reference here.
While I already own TFA digitally and on Blu-Ray, I actually listened to it again recently on soundclooud so I could listen to it while I ran errands.
I think the commentaries for the new movies are a must for anyone that might have some issues with the films. I really liked hearing his perspective on Finn and his reasoning behind certain decisions. He does like to talk about “REAL sets, PRACTICAL effects” a little too much, but he also praises the army of CGI artists a lot too so it is pretty balanced.
I agree. I think Restructured, with the additional deleted moments regarding Leia and the Republic, and maybe a really solid opening crawl, is as good as we’re gonna get without some radical changes that or may not even be possible.
I haven’t seen Mute, paja, but I think that is a cool idea. You should definitely go for it! What music were you considering to use?
Anakin, I like the idea of using a hit song from 2015 for when he is in the future! In my head I always pictured that he was in an alternate timeline of 2015, and all of the crazy stuff they did changed it again, but I think just adding in a little reference or two would be cool little touches.
Well, we can’t change what has happened now, so you have to look on the bright side.
You have probably gained a lot of experience from all of the edits you have made already, so when you eventually are able to get a new laptop and get back to editing, not only will you have that experience under your belt, but you’ll also be able to return to your projects, or just start brand new one’s, with a fresh perspective.
And you’ll also have a back up drive. Right? RIGHT?
That’s a good point. You’re basically saying that even if Starkiller Base was better set up, it still doesn’t address the fact that it barely has any relevance to the characters. So by repositioning the destruction, you could have it tie in more to the characters’ motivation.
I would definitely be interested in seeing that. That could work, but on the other hand maybe it is disconnected to “the story we care about”, as JJ calls it in the TFA commentary, because they didn’t want Death Star 3.0 to be very integral to the fresh part of the story, if that makes sense. Like, if you can’t get those two thing being connected to work, then they’re better off being separated.
Han just sort of looks at it
Accurate.
Haha, it’s so funny you brought this conversation to another thread because I was just thinking of doing the same.
I do agree with you. I think the “space wizard” argument is used to remind people that this isn’t a hard science fiction story, I think the issue isn’t that people are trying to put science into a space fantasy, but that a fictional universe tends to follow it’s own set of rules for what is and isn’t possible, etc.
It’s like what Dom says. How it works isn’t as much of an issue, but how it fits into the plot is more of an issue for most people I think.
I think the purpose of these kind of rules is to create consistent obstructions to goals in your universe, which allows the stakes to maintain a certain value. It serves to make the plot engaging. It’s hard to explain, but when those “rules” lose consistency, it tends to lower the stakes of previous stories and makes it harder to suspend one’s disbelief. Otherwise soft magic or science answers to narrative problems can be used as a deus ex machina. And people really can suspend their disbelief in any story if it is set up properly, I believe. I think the debates between hard and soft magic systems as well as hard and soft science fiction would fit in well with this topic.
And this is where we get into the “science” debate of Star Wars. Now, I don’t think everything “science” related needs to be explained, like Leia surviving the vacuum of space for short period of time, for example. I don’t think Han and Leia reaching Bespin from Hoth is a major issue. If you can explain it in two words, like “backup hyperdrive”, I think it still works. Also, the time it takes to get there isn’t defined, which I think helps. It helps keep it in the “soft science fiction” range.
But, I do agree that Starkiller Base is my least favorite aspect of TFA. With Starkiller Base, while it is definitely soft science fiction, I personally think the problem is that it isn’t set up very well in the story, like you said.
The Death Star was made at the height of the Empire’s power. But Starkiller Base is extremely more powerful than the Death Star ever was. Not only that, but it is built by an Imperial remnant faction that has been in hiding, but somehow has the resources to build something exponentially stronger than the old Empire’s greatest superweapon. I know a lot of you on here have seen this discussion a dozen plus times already so I apologize for that, but I do think that Starkiller could have worked if it had just been set up better than it was, if a superweapon was so necessary.
I mean, they have had 30 years to develop the technology in secret, and they could have set up that criminal groups were funneling money to the First Order or something like that.
We sort of get a glimpse of that when Poe Dameron sees the First Order Star Destroyer for the first time. He looks around in awe, probably wondering where the hell they got the money to build it.
Regardless, I do think seeing the Hosnian destruction from the across the galaxy feels “plot convenient”. For all we know it is just a bigger Death Star laser, and now we’re scratching our heads as to why our heroes can see it from wherever they are. This is something I’m very glad that Restructured fixes. It’s a lot more effective in that edit, in my opinion.
I don’t know, I think for me it’s that it makes the Death Star feel a little less special. I think there is a decent argument that if the First Order is trying to emulate the Empire, then of course they would try build their own death star, and it is the perfect weapon to destroy the Republic, the Resistance, and Luke Skywalker without losing one soldier. There is also this nice irony that if Starkiller Base is Ilum, then the First Order has turned a sacred Jedi world into an evil machine, but that is not made obvious in the movie whatsoever.
From what I understand there was a superweapon even in George’s treatment for Episode 7, and I’m sure JJ thought it was necessary to make TFA feel familiar. I just think there were other alternatives to this. Just have Starkiller be a Base, and have a big First Order fleet destroy the New Republic capital. Or make Starkiller Base like the Star Forge, and it would help explain how the First Order got their resources. Maybe the First Order had an Eclipse-like ship with a superlaser, which might’ve been a bit more believable.
I know that even as late as March 2014 that they were still throwing around the idea of the Resistance having a large ship called the Warhammer, which would’ve been used to break through the First Order planetary shield. It would’ve been interesting if that had been a New Republic ship, maybe used to break through planetary shields of the few Imperial holdouts across the galaxy, or be a literal fleet-buster. Maybe the First Order could have sneaked on board and used it to destroy the New Republic capital that way.
Of course you can “what-if” endlessly, and while I still really enjoy TFA, Starkiller Base is one thing I just sort of tolerate for the sake of the story.
There are canon (or at least common headcanon) explanations for these two things.
The ESB one has been debated for years. But basically, the Falcon has a secondary, albeit extraordinarily slow, backup hyperdrive. It’s like a spare tire for space travel. This also explains how the Empire and Boba Fett got there before they did once they knew where they were going.
As for why everyone can see the destruction of Hosnian Prime… it’s definitely a hand-wavy explanation but this is what Wookiepedia says.
When the Starkiller Base superweapon released the quintessence [dark energy] it had collected within its core, it was transformed into phantom energy [another state of dark energy], which would follow the line of egress that had been provided by the weapon’s technicians according to planetary rotation, inclination, etc, through a hole in “sub-hyperspace”, until it was intercepted by an object of sufficient mass. When the beam of phantom energy interacted with a planet, it ignited its core, creating a pocket nova. Large amounts of phantom energy could create temporary rips in sub-hyperspace, which allowed the Hosnian Catacylsm in 34 ABY to become visible from across the galaxy as it happened.
So basically, since the weapon made light/energy travel faster than lightspeed itself, it created a disruption in space-time, which made it so the light from the destruction was visible at hyper-light speeds across the galaxy. So not only could the people on Takodana see it, but so could everyone else if they were facing the right direction. I know in the video game Battlefront 2, the characters can see the Hosnian destruction from another planet called Vardos.
But the better answer is that it’s just Star Wars, the same galaxy where starships fly like there is air friction, where you can hear sound in space, and giant worms live in asteroids. Did I forget to mention the space wizards with laser swords?
Okay, so unsurprisingly that’s not my actual ranking. My real ranking is as predictable as you can expect, probably. Just trying to play advocate for a perspective rarely scene, for whatever value that could add to the conversation.
I do like all of the films, though. They’re not all perfect, but I think they all add something of value to the saga.
The guy I quoted, I personally think he sounds super pretentious, but I am fascinated by his own perspective on the franchise.
I appreciate you guys being so respectful of my faux opinions though! Good group right here.
Worst to Best: Explained
"I was utterly underwhelmed by “A New Hope,” impressed solely by the world-making of the script—the delivery of a ready-made but minor mythology—but neither moved nor fascinated nor at all delighted by the filmmaking. Rather, I was shocked—that the director of “American Graffiti” could have constrained himself to create such a turgid, stilted, flat, and textureless movie.” - Richard Brody, The New Yorker
The palette of Hollywood in the 70s, that had for the past few years been introducing avant-garde storytelling to a wider audience, now was doomed with the release of Lucas’ original space-fantasy. Being one of the first blockbusters, it became such a phenomenon that it laid the groundwork for all of the mind-numbing films that we associate with the term “blockbuster movies” for the next 40 years. Lucas, ironically, played a part of the banality of modern Hollywood, filled with dull stories, like seeing the same superhero plot with a new coat each year, and actions films that try to numb the mind with the overstimulation of the senses.
7 & 6. The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi
“Empire” and “Jedi” had nothing parodistic; their absurd earnestness and the bombastic banality of their direction (by Irvin Kershner and Richard Marquand, respectively) are a perfect match for the oppressive, hectoring John Williams scores that accompanied them. If there was nostalgic, faux-naïve whimsy in Lucas’s inaugural installment of “Star Wars,” it was gone from “Empire” and “Jedi,” replaced by a hegemonic bellow for devotion and belief.” - Brody
ESB can’t decide if it is a serious movie or a silly one. It is sort of a mess with no solid conclusion, making a film that can’t really stand on its own. I tend to agree with the thoughts here if you’d like to know more: http://www.simplysyndicated.com/why-empire-strikes-back-sucks-gundark-poodoo/
ROTJ, while repeating many of the same mistakes as the original Star Wars film, this is really where the idea of Vader as a sympathetic character is developed.
The only redeeming quality of these films are the elements of Darth Vader’s redemption the introduced to the saga, a twist that made the films grow beyond mere “adventure films”. They really have nothing else to offer beyond this, save for some of Yoda’s philosophical preaching.
5 & 4. Force Awakens and the Last Jedi
With The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, they’re both just okay. No strong feelings either way about them. They are not as imaginative as Lucas’ prequels, but there is considerable effort to address the legacy of a character like Vader. Even though that twist allowed for the beautiful tale Lucas created in his prequels, they did present a problem with the idea that only one family could really effect the destiny of this galaxy. But with the new character of Rey, we have a character who is clearly a nobody in Episode 7 and we get to see her come to accept that she has no destiny. But, it is a strong message that she has to make her own destiny, and Rey, just like anyone, can make a real difference. The story of Rey and Kylo Ren are the most interesting aspects of these new films, with Finn and Rose being my second favorites if they can conclude their arc in 8 appropriately in the next film. I’m sure IX will fit into the middle of my list as well, especially if they can devise a conclusion with Ben Solo returning to Leia that reflects Anakin leaving his own mother at the beginning of this saga.
"The labyrinthine opening shot of “Revenge of the Sith”— of Anakin and Obi-Wan giving chase to Dooku through the space vehicles on the planet of Coruscant—is a mighty and audacious gauntlet-throw, the digital equivalent of the opening shot of Orson Welles’s “Touch of Evil.” It wheels and gyrates and zips and pivots with a vertiginous wonder that declares, from the beginning, that Lucas had big visual ideas and was about to realize them with a heroically inventive virtuosity. And the rest of the movie follows through on that self-dare.
If I had seen “Revenge of the Sith” in real time, in a theatre upon its release, in 2005, I think that, at the moment when Palpatine (Ian McDiarmid), sizzling in the blue lightning that Mace Windu (Samuel L. Jackson) reflects back at him, cries out to Anakin (Hayden Christensen), “Power! Unlimited Power!,” I would have leaped out of my seat yelling with excitement. The entire movie is filled with an absolute splendor of the pulp sublime, and that moment is its very apogee. Lucas reaches historic heights in the filming of action: the martial artistry of Anakin and Obi-Wan’s double duel versus Dooku, the gaping maw of outer space and of the airshaft into which the heroic duo drops, Obi-Wan’s light-sabre fight with the four-armed Grievous, and, above all, the apocalyptic inferno of the confrontation of Obi-Wan and Anakin (which, regrettably, cuts back to Yoda and Emperor, a much duller battle). I watched these sequences over and over—happily, with the sound off to get rid of the musical score—and was repeatedly and unflaggingly amazed by Lucas’s precise, dynamic, wildly imaginative direction.
The scripted politics of the conflicts have a grand imagination to match. What Lucas brings to the script of “Clones” and Sith” is a quasi- (or pseudo-) Shakespearean backroom dialectic of power-maneuvering. The dialogue is just heightened and sententious enough, just sufficiently rhetorical, to convey the grave moment of ideas in conflict and the grand mortal results of that dialectical clash—the making of a villain and the unmaking of a republic.” - Brody
Also, see Camille Puglia’s thoughts on ROTS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibkmh72_1pw
#1 Attack of the Clones
"This peculiar contradiction began to resolve itself with the pleasures of “Attack of the Clones.” There, Lucas’s force awakens. The movie’s rich-hued palette alone is a jolt from the start, and the movie’s action scenes have an alluring, entrancing kinetic vigor and texture. The speeder chase with the paid assassin, with its swoops and spins and drops; Obi-Wan’s fight with Jango Fett; and the serial duels with Count Dooku—all of these display balletic gracefulness and dazzling rapidity along with closely-textured compositions in depth, surprising pictorial imbalances, and angles that are as expressive as they are surprising. The colossal scale of the assembled clones toward the end of the film has an awe-inspiring power greater than anything in any of the four films that preceded it. My hypothesis is that digital technology caught up to Lucas’s imagination. Finally, by 2002, digital technology, which he had begun to use in “The Phantom Menace,” liberated him from the limits of optical effects and, by means of C.G.I., could create the fusion of live action and animation that was implicit in the project, and in his vision, from the start.” - Brody
This film is the epitome of what George Lucas always wanted, being able to tell a story that his completely his own, separated from Hollywood and with technology that was finally able to bring his wildest dreams to life. With it being the first major feature film completely shot on digital, it paved the way to the democratization of filmmaking, and now anyone can make a movie and find an audience online. Lucas was never able to successfully create his American Zoetrope he envisioned, a place for filmmakers to tell their stories away from Hollywood, but in a way, he succeeded through the breakthroughs that truly began with this film.
Best to Worst
Have you tried messaging the person about getting a copy of the original video?
Hey Biggs, which version of the deleted scene were you planning to use that is offline now?
Someone could add to this or correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought I remember seeing someone trying to polish that deleted scene so it could be usable, since as-is it is very dirty.
Maybe someone knows what I’m talking about, but I would suggest going through both the fan edit threads and the preservation threads.
I think there is someone who was fixing up the deleted scene of Luke looking up at the space battle, and I think he said he was also going to work on the Tosche station scenes. If you find those threads you could try to message those people directly about it.
Otherwise, I’d suggest going with oojason’s idea, and try to have the film match the source, giving the movie a grindhouse or discovered rough cut feel. I definitely think it would be cool to have an extended edition of the film in that sort of style.
EDIT: I also know that some people were attempting to work on recreating an earlier cut of the film that was very inferior to final version. I’m not sure if they ever finished it but I think that would be a wonderful project that could demonstrate what could have been and the power of editing.
I think we do sort of equate Star Wars to characters like Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, and Darth Vader, but if Lucasfilm begins to tell new stories in a totally different time period with fresh characters, I think that will be what Star Wars is for a whole new generation of fans.
I actually called Ebay but they just told me to make the report online. I wonder if you put your foot down enough you could get customer service to connect you with someone with a little more authority.
