RogueLeader

DrDre said:

Moving away from the whole ST debate, I think the bigger question is, whether Star Wars will be able to move beyond the Skywalker Saga? For over four decades Star Wars and the Skywalkers have been more or less synonymous in the movieverse.

This is a really great question. I think content like Knights of the Old Republic was extremely popular, and it featured no Skywalker’s, so I definitely think the franchise can survive without them.

Just create an interesting world with relatable characters with just a hint of those familiar elements, like weird aliens, droids, the Force, etc. and I think the franchise could really evolve in interesting ways. Really Star Wars has to evolve beyond that to survive into the future.

Yeah, I think the wording of the TLJ crawl (and the TFA crawl) could have been done a little differently to clarify the situation better.

I like to think that even though the FO is only a fraction of the size of the old empire (and looks like putting a lot of their money into projects, like SKB and the Supremacy, and upgrading old Empire tech rather than just being at the same unit size of the Galactic Empire), they’re extremely organized and have planned for this moment for years.

With the New Republic, I picture it as if the attack on Pearl Harbor was more successful.

The whole issue with the New Republic was that they didn’t want to create a large standing army like the Galactic Republic had at the outbreak of the Clone Wars, because they felt it gave the centralized government so much authority that it allowed the Republic to become a totalitarian regime in the first place. They understandably feared that happening again, and thought their biggest threat was long gone.

The New Republic did have their own defense force, but nowhere near the scale of the Clone Wars era Republic or the Empire. The New Republic was set up to rely more on the defense forces of the different planetary systems within their government, rather than have its own huge military.

And although they did take out a significant portion of the New Republic fleet, the most important thing was that they also destroyed their leadership.
So while all of combined defense forces of the different Republic worlds might be larger than the FO, they are disorganized and now more worried about defending their own worlds against this military junta that’s united and prepared. It’s a divide and conquer strategy.

That’s why Leia and Luke are such a threat to them. The idea of the Jedi could reunite the galaxy, and Leia knows that.

So I kind of wish that was more of the wording of the opening crawl, not that all of the ships in the entire Republic were destroyed, but the destruction of the Senate basically divided whatever forces were left into disarray.

So to me, I think the elements are there, but them being afraid of delving into politics really hurt the clarification of the situation. And I think proper opening crawls, a deletion of a line or two, and maybe the addition of one or two deleted scenes of Leia could’ve helped address some questions people had.

And from what I understand, actually making Luke the McGuffin of TFA wasn’t JJ’s idea.

I get what you’re saying Collipso, but in that moment Leia has lost all hope, which make Luke coming back to reignite that hope makes it so powerful.

So they did it to deprive fans of fan service?

When people say TFA was all fan service?

Definitely agree with you guys. I think post-IX Star Wars will be a really interesting time for fans. I’m excited to see where things go.

I definitely think “new” is what the franchise needs. Get away from the OT timeline and characters and explore new things.

I honestly don’t think the franchise is as in as much crisis as people think it is.

Once we get past IX, and into new brand new territory, I think the majority of the fan base will be more positive about the franchise in general.

I just think more people have a relationship with Star Wars that is unlike any other fictional universe. People revere it, so going against preconceived notions regarding it (which Lucas did with the prequels and now is happening with new films) can be blasphemy to some people. Some people just have higher expectations for these films than anything else.

But like I said, once we get into Favreau’s tv series, D&D’s movie series and Rian’s trilogy, things that are likely separate from the OT and those characters, people hopefully will be more open-minded about the new content.

You can’t equate Marvel and Star Wars and say if there is no Marvel controversy then Lucasfilm must be doing something wrong. I understand why people compare them, but they’re not the same

Yeah, I noticed the FX weren’t done as well unfortunately.
I also had the same thought, he does explain what happened. I think it is a little unfortunate that he would be telling them what happened rather than us seeing it, you know, show don’t tell. And there are a few shots during the tribunal where can see blue screen in the background too.

I do know he had some pretty big ideas. He was planning to work at them all simultaneously in case certain elements were carried over into the other films. General color correction. Fixing lightsabers. He spoke about voice dubbing. C-3PO wouldn’t appear until ROTS.

He mentioned before that he wanted to change it to where the Vader reveal would be saved until ESB, so it definitely would’ve required radical changes. Padme also would’ve survived ROTS, so that probably would’ve been something similar to what Hal did.

Here was one of his biggest quotes regarding that:

2008-12-05, ESBR Thread:
“When i first planned on doing the saga i wanted to bring the saga together as a whole and not have the PT >ruin many of the surprises in the OT, namely Leia being Lukes sister and Vader being Lukes father. I want >them to be able to be watched in chronological order. So in ROTS you will not have Anakin named as Vader or >even see him don the costume. The last we see of Anakin is being led away in the life support chamber after it >leaves the shuttle. Leia will not be named either. Palpatine has Maul, Dooku & Grievous in the PT, so when we >see Vader in ANH we will just think that he’s just another henchman. We will hear mention of Vader in ROTS but >not connected to Anakin. And also the problem with Leia remembering her real mother but Padme dies in ROTS >will be fixed in the PT, so no changes are needed in ROTJ.
“There will be probably more work done on the PT than in the Revisited OT. I have so many ideas for the PT but >a lot of new FX need to be done to achieve this. I’m hoping that a new version of TPM is released before i get >to that movie with the new CG Yoda because the abomination that is the PT puppet Yoda just cannot exist in my >edit. I’m even thinking of building my own mechanical puppet Yoda to replace the one in that movie.”

But as you can see from the date, a lot of what he said was from 10 years ago, and I’m sure Ady had come up with new ideas and changed old thoughts since then. But you can tell he really wanted to change the Prequels to remain consistent with the OT. Obviously don’t blame him for not wanting to do it. He’s already put so much time into the OT: Revisited, and the amount of work his Prequels would need probably would be even more than what he has done with the OT. But he has inspired a lot of the people in the fan-editing community, so maybe others can take his ideas and run with them.

I’m curious about which characters he was planning to dub. I’ve always felt like dubbing is really difficult to pull off seamlessly.

While I think the most interesting thing would be to hear his ideas on improving characters/plot, I’m also curious if he had any ideas for aesthetic/music changes. Also, for some reason I thought I remembered reading somewhere the possibility of him adding characters. So yeah, definitely a lot of VFX work in general. But like I said, I imagine his plan was pretty dynamic when thinking about it after a decade.

BiggsFan44 said:

You didn’t address the first point you quoted.
Lucas didn’t hit the reset button in his version.
It wasn’t Empire vs Rebels 2.
It was Empire vs a functioning New Republic.

I agree with you that TFA played it safe and used OT imagery and story beats because they wanted something to ease fans back into Star Wars. I wish they had a little more creative imagery, and over on the fan edit thread we’re finding ways to add more political context to the film that we wish it had. But we still like The Force Awakens, though. I think the political situation makes sense in these new films, but I wish it had been made a little clearer in them. And I think in the long run, Resistance/Republic would have served the same function with differences mostly in name. Since a superweapon existed in George’s version I imagine the Republic would have had a similar fate to what actually happened in TFA. And I don’t think people would have had as much issues with the situation if they wouldn’t have been afraid to explain it more.

I just think you are at the point of thought that this a terrible movie even though there is still a lot to love about this film. Like others have said, I feel like you made this thread to find people to agree with your opinions rather than be open-minded about anything else.

EDIT: Especially when you say stuff like, “You know I’m right about TFA.” You have already made your mind up.

He has touched on little things, and doubleofive had listed some things he said about them over the years on the Revisited blog. I think they mentioned he was eventually going to talk about his ideas for the prequels, but I don’t think he has yet.

BiggsFan44 said:

Empire vs Rebels 2.0 was not in Lucas’ story. Sorry.

"The important thing to know was this, throughout the entire guided imagery phase, Lucas was involved.

And what ideas were born in the guided imagery phase?

Kira (Rey/Thea) as a scavenger on a desert planet.

Skylar/Finn/Sam as Kira’s friend.

Kira finding a “map” to Luke Skywalker by the end of the film.

Luke being in hiding somewhere and dealing with some heavy emotional issues.

The nebulous concept of the Jedi Killer (Talon as Jedi Killer is just one possibility, the earliest Jedi Killer art really changes the appearance up, from non-human to human to Talon to Knight of Ren looking dude, to perhaps even Snoke himself.

Han Solo was back to his smuggling ways.

Leia was in a position of power.

The Neo-Empire was a thing (just not called First Order yet).

There was a “shadowy puppeteer” behind Talon/the Jedi Killer.

A final confrontation between Rey/Thea/Kira and the “Jedi Killer” on an snow planet.

The Neo-Empire having a superweapon.

A Yoda-like creature to move the story along (eventually Maz).

A graveyard of imperial stuff on various planets, including Jakku.

A forest planet w/ a castle (what eventually becomes Maz’s stronghold).

A green planet with a WWII style “Republic base.”

Kira/Rey/Thea living in an AT-AT.

Again, lots and lots of pictures of Kira/Rey/Thea wandering the junkyards of her world and being a gearhead/techie/scavenger.

Luke’s hiding spot was always either an island or a forest planet that was gorgeous.

This is all from the guided imagery phase! Where Lucas’ treatment was still being reworked by himself, Kennedy and Arndt! And before J.J. was a) officially announced as director, and b) even really that involved!

This phase went up until June of 2013."

Much of this information comes from the Art of the Force Awakens.

And I don’t have sources on hand, but I’ve seen convincing arguments on TFN for Luke in TLJ not really jiving with Campbell.

Then bring them when you get the chance.

The rest I just disagree with. Also Rey has less reason to fall for Kylo than Padme did Anakin, AKA basically none.

Star Wars fans in the 2000s would have laughed at you if you even thought Padme had much of a reason to fall for Anakin. Now, I think she did, but most fans didn’t. And Rey and Kylo’s mind literally became one, feeling all of their own hopes, fears and insecurities in a single moment. I think they know each other on a deeper level than anyone else knows them.

Man, you think it is but it isn’t.

The Neo-Empire, one of Han and Leia’s kids turning to the darkside, a young scavenger girl, a big superweapon, a new big bad, Luke in self-imposed exile, Han dying, these are all elements from George’s treatments for Episode 7. The broad strokes you are complaining about are from George Lucas.

Some sources:

1. https://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-development-of-the-sequel-trilogy.50046418/
2. https://www.resetera.com/threads/medium-pablo-hidalgo-and-young-many-of-the-ideas-for-tfa-and-tlf-were-from-lucas.15410/

The only thing I think you could complain about is how a lot of the designs are not that different from the OT, the X-Wings and TIE-fighters look pretty similar. Maybe George’s designs would’ve been a little weird, but with fans you can never win and people probably would have complained that it “didn’t feel like Star Wars” just like they did when the prequels came out.

The Sequel Trilogy continues the themes of family and love that the other films had. And actually, I think the Sequel trilogy is resolving issues that the Prequels had through the stories of Luke, Kylo Ren and Rey.

Luke recognized the flaws of the Jedi that the prequels introduced. And yes, we were meant to see the Jedi as flawed. By the end of the film, instead of thinking the Jedi need to disappear forever, he recognizes that the new generation has to learn from the mistakes of the old in order to grow into something better.

Rey and Kylo Ren’s relationship is the poetic inverse of the relationship between Anakin and Padme. It was romantic love that tore the galaxy apart, and I think it will be love between Rey and Ben that bring the galaxy back together. Just like how Anakin’s love for Padme damned him, his love for his son saved him.

I think these new films are truly building off what came before it.

They are implementing the Hero’s Journey made famous by Joseph Campbell, and they are using elements of Jungian philosophy to continue these stories. Things that Lucas used when developing the other films.

If you look at the Hero’s Journey, even though it is used heavily in film/literature today, most heroes don’t complete the entire cycle as Joseph Campbell has it listed in his work.
Luke ended his journey inROTJ around the Ultimate Boon, which is only the end of the second part of the cycle. Luke’s story in the Sequel films continue that off. Read this if you want to know more about it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/8azql2/how_the_last_jedi_explored_the_last_stages_of_the/

Looking at it this way, Luke’s story is really the perfect continuation of his journey. He’s now on the level of great heroes like Gilgamesh and King Arthur.

Luke, Rey, Kylo, all of their journeys reflect the archetypes created by Carl Jung in his life’s work, the ego, the Shadow, the anima/animus. Things that were heavy elements of the OT and the PT, now being continued in the ST. We also see the idea of the assimilation with the Shadow and Rey/Kylo Ren’s story. These archetypes can even be reflected with the political conflict in the new trilogy as well.

I just think you are looking at this new trilogy in a very surface level way, or have been watching to many of the toxic YouTubers who are stuck in a cyclical pattern that have to create videos for that community’s echo chamber. I’m not saying these movies are perfect, but these movies are thematically cohesive with the rest of the saga.

I agree with you Dom. I really like Thrawn, but I think the new films are much more tied to the themes of all of the other films than the Thrawn trilogy was.

EDIT: ROTJ to TFA would be weird if they were like 5 years apart, but it’s been three decades, longer than the Galactic Empire even existed. Things have happened in between these two films, and TFA begins in medias res, just like ANH did.

DOUBLEEDIT: BiggsFan, you mentioned for awhile how you really disliked the Prequels after watching the Plinkett reviews and reading other online opinions. I was the same way, and even rewrote the prequels. Overtime I came to accept the Prequels flaws and come to really appreciate the story it was trying to tell, and it sounds like you were just the same.
I think if you give it some time, eventually you might finds things you like about these new films too.

BiggsFan44 said:

I think that’s a false equivelance, since the PT is clearly building off the themes and character arcs of the OT, whereas TFA is a giant regression.

Man, most Star Wars fans would’ve really disagreed with you that it built off the themes of the OT back before we ever knew we were getting more movies. I agree with you that it did, but it has taken a lot of time for more people to come around to that. But the situation with the ST is different? I don’t really think so.

The PT was my childhood. I love the OT, I love the PT, I am loving the ST.

Not trying to make you angry, just trying to help you love Star Wars for what it is and to not think it is “broken beyond repair”. People have been saying that for a long time, but I don’t think that is the case!

Haha, no worries about double posting! I just did it too.

I found what you were talking about.
“The flags are designed to drive superfans nuts with references to the earlier movies, but Abrams tells Guyett that too many of them allude to the first of Lucas’ prequels: ‘I don’t want to be too about podracers,’ he says. ‘I’d rather come up with our stuff.’”

That doesn’t really sound petty to me? I mean, he didn’t even say take them all out, he just want to do his own thing, imo.

Chiang is also a vice president of Lucasfilm as well, but I think he also respected JJ’s choices as director, if they were his own.

Now, I do agree with you that they probably wanted to stick closer to the OT designs because that is what they felt the fans wanted (and now they don’t want it), but personally I think it makes sense for things to be a little different but not that different. There hasn’t been any war in 30 years, so why would they develop extremely different fighter ships in that timespan?

And in my opinion, I think it had to be a another civil war-type situation to be a true continuation of the themes of the past six films. And outside invasion or something like would have felt really detached to me.
But you can see how subjective this gets.

EDIT: Frank is making a good point. We’ll probably just run around in circles and never convince the other on anything. Haha. I just the think the degree of cohesiveness in a movies series is really changes based off each individuals perspective. So might seem inconsistent to you and other people, but not to everyone. Just depends!

I mean the head art director for episode 7 was Doug Chiang, the same guy that did Episode 1.

EDIT: And the other prequels as well I believe.

You saying Episode 7 hates Episode 3 is just totally subjective though.

From an interview with Neal Scanlan, head of creature and droid effects.

Interviewer: The original plan was to do Maz as a puppet. How far along did that get? And when was the decision made to go full CG or…?

Neal: Yeah. There was the truth of the matter was that Maz’s role in the film was always very fluid. As the scripts evolved, as J.J.’s ideas for Maz evolved, so did our technique. So the idea was at one time, Maz’s role was quite small. And at that time, that was perfect for a puppet. We could work in a very intimate environment with this character. We could deal with it in a very confined way. And as Maz’s role expanded, we looked at the possibility of doing it as a small person in a suit and having a sort of partial CG version. And but her role grew further than that. And at that time, we decided that to give the freedom to allow her to be developed in J.J.’s mind and also developed within the film, if we went to CG it would be a fabulous, that would be the by far the smartest move. Also as well, generally speaking, animatronic puppets and other things obviously don’t have the freedom a CG character has. And Maz was one character that needed a lot of freedom to be able to move around her own world. And for that reason, CG was chosen.

https://www.slashfilm.com/force-awakens-practical-effects/

With Yoda, since the last time we saw him chronologically was in ROTJ, it makes sense that he should be a puppet the next time we see. Plus, that is how Luke remembers him.

And maybe TFA tried to harken back to the OT style more, but I don’t think they’re pushing away from CGI. Maz didn’t look bad, and Snoke in TLJ looked fantastic in my opinion. I think the Sequel Trilogy is just finding a balance between practical and visual effects.

Chewielewis said:

If you want to watch films properly you need to see past these things, separate the craft from the story and appreciate both for what they are. Suspend your disbelief.

Suspension of disbelief. That’s all it really boils down to. People either rationalize any apparent inconsistencies or just overlook them because they just enjoy the movies for what they are.

EDIT: Those are totally your subjective opinions. It might have appeared inconsistent to you but I completely disagree.

I don’t think subreddits can be deleted, but doubleofive is a mod currently, so he should be able to list it as inactive if necessary.
I’m trying to see what I can do about reporting this person. In the meantime I’ll give doubleofive any information I find on this person and see what can be done. I know he’ll be lurking on here, I’m pretty sure he has an account on OT.com, so I won’t say anymore on this thread.

Sorry to bring all of this drama up on here, Ady.

He missed those, but remembered the Ewok films, surprisingly.

We never see where the Falcon lands, do we?