RogueLeader

I personally think the perspective people have on the B Plot, with Canto Bight and everything, is going to depend if those lessons carry over into Episode IX. How will we see Poe handle being a leader, will Finn act on the lesson of “saving what we love”, and will there be some kind of resolution to this original sin of war that TLJ sort of paints? Will they break the cycle? As the second act in a trilogy, I wonder if these things could be set ups that have pay offs in Episode IX.

And if they do, it could add value to all of those scenes. I could change my mind after Episode IX comes out, but atm that is personally why I disagree with cutting any important scenes of the B Plot.

I understand that the space chase feels slow (I’ve heard others suggest looking at it more as a siege rather than a chase), and the Fathier chase feeling pointless. Maybe the chase would’ve been more visually interesting if they were jumping in and out of hyperspace, or I can understand wanting to trim or cut the Fathier chase. I just think a lot of the conversations between characters add value to the story, and it might be important for what’s to come, too.

Gotta agree with Dom. I think after TFA, a lot of us felt that Kylo, after killing Han, would be transformed into a fully-realized villain. But TLJ just hammered down the fact that killing Han did not have the effect he was hoping for. Kylo is broken, just like his new mask illustrates. I personally think the Kintsugi-vibe with the red lacquer looks badass. Kylo is exactly where he thought he wanted to be this whole time, but he is not happy. He’s just doubling down on his mistakes like a sunken cost fallacy.

With Finn, his character arc has gone like this:
TFA: Wants to save himself —> wants to save Rey
TLJ: Wants to save Rey —> wants to save the Resistance
IX?: Wants to save the Resistance —> wants to save the Resistance AND the soldiers of the First Order (save the good guys and the “bad guys”)

Regarding Rey, in TFA, she was under the delusion that her parents would come back for her. In TLJ, she understood that they weren’t coming back, but she now was wondering why they weren’t coming back? Why did they abandon her? Did something happen to them? That, to me, is why she wanted to see her parents, and why it hurt so much to accept they didn’t actually care about her. Like Dom said, I think she had this fixed idea of who she was supposed to be in TFA, but she realized that wasn’t who she was meant to be. In TLJ, she is lost and trying to figure that out, and asking questions about her identity, like what is it that is awakening in her, and why her parents left her, are apart of that self-actualization.

I feel like people take Hux’s abuse so personally! It is really interesting. I felt that Hux actually had an iverse arc to that of Poe. Poe gets slapped, thrown across a room, and shot. Hux gets smacked to the floor, choked, and thrown against a wall. Hux is young and a little overconfident in his abilities, but by the end of TLJ you can see that he might be aware of his mistakes, like Poe, when he tries to stop Kylo Ren from taking Luke’s bait, and that might translate to him growing into a more competent enemy in IX. I mean, just look at the face he gives Kylo Ren at the end. I can’t really say too much about him, but if in IX Hux is eager to betray Kylo, then TLJ really helped set that resentment up.

Haha, Snoke being “half the character he used to be”! That is true literally, but to me Snoke was who he always was meant to be. Him being a red herring, a stepping stone for Kylo’s growth, is the best way they could have used him. The son of Han Solo and Princess Leia being the new Emperor of the Galaxy is such a great set up, and also being the head of a war against his own mother.

I honestly think some, not all of course, but some of people’s disappointments honestly come from expectation, as much as we don’t want to admit it. 10 years from now, when kids watch these movies back to back an don’t have to speculate for a year and a half who Snoke is, or what Luke is doing on that island, they won’t digest these films the same way a lot of people are now. I think it is the same reason why people seem to be coming around to the prequels now, in my opinion.

Just because we think a character’s arc is supposed to go a certain way doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be open minded about the direction they are deciding to take these characters, don’t you think? We can try to understand them and what the filmmakers are trying to say.

I mean, I hate that some people don’t enjoy these films. Not saying people are wrong for their own opinions. Just sharing my own because I want people to enjoy them like I do! That’s all.

nl0428 said:

There’s no way Ben would go back to wearing a mask. The way he destroyed it in The Last Jedi perfectly shows how he is ditching the Darth Vader impersonator he’s been acting like and becoming his own force.

That is one interpretation. If Rey had joined him, I doubt he would’ve gone back to the mask. But after she rejected him, he is more alone than he has ever been. It is understandable that he would regress to constructing a Vader-esque identity as the new “emperor of the universe”. It’s like he finds comfort and purpose hiding his emotions behind that mask. And if his mask is has been put back together, with cracks all across it, it is a great visual metaphor for his internal struggle. I think Kylo Ren will appear more evil than he ever has, initially, before his possible redemption occurs.

His technique of creating a background plate could also be used to put in any character there. If Ackbar was unconvincing, you could even film a new shot with an actor in Resistance garb.

The rotoscoping and Ackbar being in his ROTJ outfit just doesn’t make it 100% convincing for me.

I agree totally with your perspective on it, that’s how I see it too, I’m just saying that the writers probably wrote their interactions with a possible romance in mind, and the actors also took that into account into their performances. Like that deleted scene, they didn’t know it was going to be deleted, so that scene still informed the rest of their interactions in that film.

I don’t blame anyone who sees it, because that was always in the back of their minds during the production of these films and that can’t be denied, I just personally choose to view it as a close, platonic relationship like you do, too.

Inbreeding crap? Hahaha. I don’t think the criticism should be taken that seriously.

But to make a counter-argument, Ray, I definitely think it is there

Look at this deleted scene from ESB. Luke and Leia were clearly written with some romantic interest.
https://youtu.be/w7IDByqnP1A

Leia also kisses Luke after they rescue him from Cloud City, when he is laying on the bunk in the Falcon. I mean I agree you can kinda write it off as her just really caring about Luke, but you can’t blame anyone for feeling the love triangle was apparent.

Also you can’t forget this little interaction in ANH when Luke asks Han what he thinks about her, and Luke is clearly a little jealous. Yes, you can write it off as platonic, but it is there.

Also, gotta say I feel Mark was playing up this interaction to be a little flirty.
https://youtu.be/lWYtpdcbLEM

Again, I don’t think it is a big deal. I wouldn’t say it is ever really blatant enough to be INCEST, but there is definitely enough there for it to be ironic and a little awkward in retrospect. It doesn’t diminish my enjoyment of these movies whatsoever. You can easily write it off as them instantly having a close relationship. They didn’t know what it was at first, but I think their relationship evolved into being like family, being caring and protective of one another.

If you can rationalize it if you want to and still enjoy it, but I definitely think they weren’t sure if Luke and Leia would end up as a couple until they got to writing Return of the Jedi. If Harrison decided not to come back for ESB or ROTJ, the option was open.

That is true, too. And at a minimal, you could just hear the sounds of the ocean, maybe they could drown out the overwhelming sounds of Plutt and Teedo.

I think it is just a matter of experimenting until you hit something that feels right.

Also, not as relevant, we’ve talked about this before, but I like the idea of the Force whispers guiding Rey to the tree. I kind of feel something like this could’ve also been used in TFA at one point or two, to help get the idea that the Force is actively pushing her onto this destiny, which would also help explain her resistance to accept it. I think it also would give another explanation for Rey’s quickly growing abilities. The Force literally will have awakened, and it almost becomes a character of its own. The Force voices could be unknown like the whispers, or elements of Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Qui-Gon dialogue could be used and distorted somewhat. But I also like the sound of the female voice used in TLJ, and if you kept it female you could argue that it is Rey’s “inner Force” as well.

Yes, EddieDean, that idea is in the context of Restructured! So it is Restructured, plus those additional ideas.

NeverarGreat said:
In this new narrative the Resistance has essentially sacrificed the Republic capitol to find Luke and turn Kylo.

I had considered that, and I think there are two simple ways you could alleviate that implication.

Option 1) You cut out the “Han did it! Send them in!” scene and just have Black Squadron show up to Starkiller a little later. So the implication that they waited for Han and Finn to get the map would be removed. (The Falcon is just faster than a squadron of X-Wings).

Option 2) Do Option 1, plus, slightly move forward Black Squadron’s arrival to decrease the gap of time between Han/Finn and Black Squadron’s arrivals.

So this would, I think, remove the implication that they essentially sacrificed the Republic for the map to Luke, since Black Squadron no longer waits for them to get the map. Also, I think keeping that brief scene isn’t necessary for a few other reasons, but it also would remove having to explain how the Resistance knows Han/Finn got the map. Now they’re just hoping they can get the map before they blow Starkiller up.

But, you would still keep the implication that is made in Restructured, that Han chose to kill time in order to try and save his son, which we have brought up and you also highlighted in your commentary, Hal.

Regarding the Chewie and Leia mourning shots, I don’t necessarily want to see them go, but I really don’t think they’re necessary. We saw Chewie scream out in pain when Han died, we saw Leia’s shock and later she embraces Rey in shared sorrow. I don’t think anyone would’ve questioned their absence if they weren’t there originally, and it kind of slows down the resolution of the film. But, if most people felt they were essential, then all you have to do is keep the shot of Chewie mourning where it is, and then have the Leia shot right after, but cut way before she turns to R2 and 3PO (unless someone can think of more relevant dialogue for 3PO). Simple as that, and I wouldn’t be against that either.

I do like the idea of Rey completing the map in her mind to get to Luke, too. It would take a little extra work to get that implication across, but I think it could work. For this, I just tried to come up with an idea to keep the primary map plot that drives the first two acts relevant to act three, with the least amount of changes necessary.

EDIT:
Word of the day: Implication

Okay. So I’ve thought about it some more, and before we try to tackle a very radical edit like removing Starkiller Base completely, let’s try to take some baby steps.

Personally, I wanted to come up with a way to keep the third act of TFA still relevant to finding Luke Skywalker. As Dom has said as well, we can still have the super laser, but we can also have them go to Starkiller to get the map. ROTJ and TPM both had multi-objective climaxes too so it can work.

So I’m going to suggest a way to make the map relevant to the third act, but still be compatible with TFA: Restructured. Think of it as a possible additional change for a Restructured V4, for example.

Let me lay out the necessary changes:

• First, while not necessary, you could have Kylo Ren tell Poe that they have the rest of the map, recovered from the archives of the Empire, during his interrogation. Take the line from Rey’s interrogation, add the sound effect, and stick it in between two of Ren’s lines, around when he lifts his hand to dig into Poe’s mind. Like I said, not necessary but it is an option.

• The next big change would be to the Resistance briefing. Basically, we will be removing the shield-lowering objective and replacing it with getting the map. I also want to mention that a few scenes prior, we would have heard Kylo tell Rey they have the rest of the map, so we would know it is on Starkiller.

• Keep everything up to and including Poe’s line, “We’ll go in there and we’ll hit that oscillator with everything we got.”

• First necessary cut would be Ackbar’s line, “But they have defensive shields our ships cannot penetrate.”

• Cut Han’s line, “So we’ll disable the shields.”

• Insert OTS of Han looking at Leia, who turns left to look at someone offscreen. We will be cutting this shot where it originally was, so we can reuse it here. During this shot, we will insert a new voiceover line of a Resistance officer asking, “Can we get [rest of] the map?” or simply, “What about the map?”

• Han looks at Finn and says, “Kid, you worked there, what do you got?” Finn, “I can do it.” Han, “I like this guy.” Finn, “[CUT I can disable the shields] But I need to be there, on the planet.” Han, “We’ll get you there.”

• Cut Leia’s line, “Han, how?” and cut Han’s line, “If I told you, you wouldn’t like it.”

• Cut shot of Leia looking toward Poe (reuse for earlier), and cut Poe’s line, “So we disable the shields, take out the oscillator, and blow up their big gun.”

• Keep shot of Chewbacca roaring in agreement. (With new context, he is agreeing with Han saying “We’ll get you there.”)

• Keep shot of Poe saying, “All right, let’s go!” End of briefing scene.

• Later when Han, Finn and Chewie are in hyperspace, cut Finn’s line, “How are we getting in?” and Han’s line about the shield having a fractional refresh rate. Start scene mid-conversation with, “We’re making our approach at lightspeed?” Later, Han says, “If we get any higher they’ll see us!” which provides the needed context: they did it to stay hidden.

• Cut Han’s line, “Then how do you know how to disable the shields?” and Finn’s, “I don’t.” Instead, it goes from, “Sanitation?!” to “I’m just here to get Rey.” or, Finn could cut Han off around, “Then how do you know how-“ “I don’t…”

• When they enter the base, Han says, “The longer we’re here, the less luck we’re going to have. The shields?” I’ve watched this a few times and Han barely opens his mouth when he says “the shields”, and he turns as he says it, so I honestly think if you just changed the audio to remove that piece of his line, people wouldn’t notice. Worst case, vfx could be use to deemphasize his mouth movement.

• Once they capture Phasma, change the on-screen graphics to display the larger galaxy map with the small chunk missing from it for two or three shots. This will probably be the only major VFX work needed. Another benefit to this change for Phasma is that giving them an old map seems less offensive than lowering the entire planet’s defenses.

• Cut Finn’s line, “Lower the shields!” You actually don’t see Finn’s mouth when he says this, so it should be as simple as removing the dialogue with no visual cuts necessary.

• Replace line of Resistance officer saying “General, their shields are down!” with new voiceover of, “General, they’ve retrieved the map!” Which continues with, “Han did it! Send them in!” assuming Leia didn’t want to blow up Starkiller until they got the map. OR, this scene could be cut altogether and just start with Black Squadron jumping out of lightspeed. No communication between D’Qar and Black Squadron. Which would also remove the question about if they were just sitting in lightspeed. The one benefit to redubbing the officer is that we get an additional indication that Finn and Han now have the map, since we can’t see them grab a data drive without a brand new shot, but I don’t think it is 100% necessary. Could also start scene with “Han did it!” Han just sent Leia a text, I guess.

• I don’t think an additional change is needed until they’re back on D’Qar. When Finn is being put on the gurney-tram, have a new voiceover for a Resistance Officer say, “He has the map!” or “Get the map to yada yada” Just another indication that the map made it to the Resistance, implying that Finn has a digital copy of the map on his person. You could even add a little Chewie growl if you wanted to imply the Officer is just translating, but not necessary.

• I would suggest cutting the sad shots of Chewie and Leia mourning, which ties in to my next change. If you think about it these shots kind of drag out the ending anyway, and these little moments aren’t totally necessary either. And also, in this version they know they have the map, so they’re not sitting around waiting for R2 to wake up. They gotta move move move.

• The last and other tough change is how to handle R2. This version doesnt use Nev’s great idea to visualize R2’s memory search, so we don’t see that in his first scene or his second. Instead, we see BB-8 roll up to still-sleeping R2, say something exciting which spurs R2 to wake up. Now, the implication is that BB-8 tells R2 they have the rest of the map, R2 wakes up all excited. C-3PO enters and says “R2! You’ve come back!”
  Cut, “You found what? How dare you call me that!” and “Find Master Luke how? Come, R2! We must go tell the others at once!”

• Or, possibly rearrange that last line a bit to say, “Come, R2! We must find Master Luke.” Depends on if it sounds right. Earlier in the film, when they first get to D’Qar, 3PO does say, “locate Master Luke.” So the tone of that might work better too.

• Cut the scene with Leia mourning and R2 and 3PO approaching her about “good news”

• Now, we go from Rey and Leia’s hug, to BB-8 waking up R2, to R2 and BB-8 putting the map together. It would be nice to see R2 have the map inserted into him, but honestly I don’t think it would be something the audience would have even questioned if we didn’t see it theatrically, either.

Aaaaaaand, I think that’s it. So, to make this change work, you would just need 2-4 VFX shots, 2-3 new voiceovers, and some clever cutting and sound mixing.

I would like some second opinions, and I may have missed something, but I honestly think this is totally possible, and something I could see a lot of people wanting to use for their own edits. We don’t really lose anything from removing a planetary shield that we never even see in the movie, and this change has a lot more importance to the overall narrative while also removing deus ex astromech.

Whew, I’m going to sleep.

I’m struggling to give very constructive feedback on this scene. I like the idea of it, but I’m still not 100% sold on it being able to work though.

Something I noticed you didn’t use in this version is Unkar Plutt dialogue. I didn’t like it at first, but I get why you used it, especially after going back to the Rey interrogation scene.
“You’re so lonely. At night, desperate to sleep.”

I think you could have a hard cut transition from the Poe interrogation scene to BB-8 outside Rey’s house. Then go into the AT-AT, to the various interior shots and hear echoes of Plutt that she’s imagining, but possibly also some alien jibberish like you suggested, like Teedo, maybe the junk cleaning alien, etc., but you can overlap them to the point that they’re really overwhelming to Rey and us, and then a hard black. Relief. After a beat, fade back onto a peaceful shot of the island.

I also feel this part really needs to feel more dreamy. The imagery could be quicker, more vague, weirder. I’m not sure. Maybe have just a few random shots of the island before you get to the foggy tree shot. I also kind of like using the shot of it panning to Luke in the threshold of the tree, but maybe you could speed up, and cut “Who are you?” line, and just as we get a glimpse of the figure, it hard cuts back to the ext. shot of the AT-AT. Almost like that figure made Rey wake up from the dream, and us too. Maybe a music swell could emphasize that quickly.

I also wonder if you could try it without the Jedi Steps, or possibly make the Jedi Steps a little less discernible, if that makes sense. Slow it down, possibly? It’d also be interesting if you could use the music from the point when she gets to the tree in TLJ. Although, it’d also be kind of be cool if it was just ambient sound, and then we could hear the Force whispers that she hears before she gets to the tree. If she had heard the whispers in her dreams, it would also help explain why she falls to her knees in surprise when she hears them again on Ach-To. It would also give the vibe that the Force is literally calling her to the island, to the tree. Maybe the whispers could be slowed down too if needed.

It is hard to say what really works for a dream sequence in Star Wars, since the only one we’ve really had is Anakin’s dream-vision of Padmé in Revenge of the Sith.

I do have to say I also think the digital zoom on the wide shot of the tree is a little too noticeable as well, I don’t know if that can be adjusted at all.

Also, not related to the dream, but I wonder if you could try quicker cuts for the Starkiller vision shots used in the interrogation, maybe matching closer in length to the later BB-8 map shots, at the longest. If the shots were quicker, more subliminal, I think the would have more of an impact, with quick intense spikes in the sound, with the crowd roar, the charge, the explosion, etc.
I also would suggest toning the music down a little because it is hard to hear Poe say “the Resistance will not be intimidated by you.”

EDIT: I could also picture hearing the ring and hum of a Tibetan meditation bowl during the island sequence. https://youtu.be/Nb3okem4OCk

Okay, so Rey says “Luke” at the very end? I thought she was saying “Jakku” at first!

Haha, feels like a face-palm moment. So you could have used that to remove the smoke and it would’ve been a lot easier than doing it from scratch, right?

First of all, which system do you guys use when playing D&D? 3.5? 5e? If you guys are on 5e, I would say they would probably be okay learning Fantasy Flight Game’s system for their Star Wars RPGs. If you guys are old school, you might want to consider checking out your other two main options.

The Saga Edition came out in the 00s, and it basically uses the d20 system. From what I understand it is similar to 3.5 or Pathfinder. If you’re really old school, you find some online resources for the old '87 West End Games Star Wars tabletop game, which was a d6 system.

But honestly, the new FFG system has the most resources, as far as books on planets, crime syndicates, ships, quests, yada yada. I personally just love reading through them. I think the thing that is intimidating for new players is the unique dice that come with the game. It doesn’t use traditional dice, rather there are different types of dice that have symbols on them, and those symbols either represent success/failure and advantage/disadvantage. Some people who are used to just the d20 system might not like it, but on the other hand I’ve heard long time D&D players say they like it because it encourages creativity within the game and keeps the focus on storytelling.

Here is a brief webcomic that illustrates the way the dice work. https://www.uptofourplayers.com/comic/edge-empire-rulez-pt-1/
Here is a video that goes over the system as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC-ch0Yckp4&feature=youtu.be&t=12m3s
I feel like once you get used to it, it actually simplifies things. I think it depends on the person though. There are definitely pros and cons to each version.

Another thing I’d recommend would be to check out some videos of people actually playing the FFG system so you can see it in action.

At first I felt having three different books felt a little gimmicky, but then I realized how much content was in each of them. So picking one up depends on what kind of game your group wants to play, either criminal underworld, rebels vs empire, or Jedi/Force stuff. What setting do you think you guys would go for?

Exactly. We could generate a shot where there are two or three of them, then have a shot focusing on the guns charging, maybe firing, then cut to the shot of the Hosnian surface.

The only little gripe would be the intensity of the approaching laser of the Hosnian shot seems a lot larger than what the Dreadnought shoots, but if we cut it in a way were it seems all two/three dreadnoughts are firing together (either single rounds like in TLJ, or maybe a laser beam like the Death Star or the Battering Ram Canon instead) I think it would help justify that intensity.

And you wouldn’t necessarily need a shot of the laser impact the surface, because as the laser is approaching the camera and you hear the screams, you could hard cut back to Leia as she is reacting to the deaths.

I think your idea to focus on the tree is a cool idea! It definitely make it feel more mysterious, and also make Luke mysterious as well.

Were you also going to have a second dream before Rey wakes up in the interrogation room?

Also wanted to add, if you wanted to keep the weapon-aspect of Starkiller Base, you should be able to trim the Resistance briefing to remove any mention of the shields. You possibly could use a shot of 3PO, and possibly come up with some dialogue, where he says something regarding the map after they have discussed the Oscillator, like, “And the map?”. Han looks at Finn and says, “Kid?”, then Finn says something like, “I can do it… but I need to be there, on the planet.” Han, “We’ll get you there.”

So Finn, Han, Chewie and Black Squadron would sort of have two separate objectives. Once Han and Finn get the map (or don’t) Black Squadron comes in to blow Starkiller up.

I think I personally prefer the idea of it not being a weapon, but I think another challenge of removing the weapon aspect would be creating shots for the First Order fleet attacking Hosnian Prime. I think it is possible to reuse and manipulate certain shots from TLJ to make it work (maybe even include a shot of Captain Cannady saying “Fire” or something).
Not only that, but it also needs to feel cohesive with the everything going on at Starkiller Base. With Restructured, at least blowing up Starkiller is tied to saving the Republic. If they don’t destroy it in time, the Republic is destroyed.

In my suggested version, the fleet leaves to prepare for their invasion before the Resistance mission even starts, and their only objective is to find Luke. I think we could see the fleet leave Starkiller right after Hux gives his speech, but we wouldn’t see that fleet again until they arrive at Hosnian Prime to destroy it. Even then, if we cut to that right after Han dies, will it have the same impact?

You get what I’m saying? They are sort of disconnected. I mean, they want to get the map to find Luke because they think he can stop the First Order, but this makes the Resistance feel like they’re two steps behind rather than just one. On the other hand, another benefit of the Fleet idea is that it would explain why Starkiller feels so empty when the Resistance arrives. And you could argue they are still tied together, since Hux can still decide in this version that they must attack the Republic AFTER the Resistance gets the crucial piece of the map, a step closer to Skywalker. Maybe a shot of the Star Destroyer(s) in hyperspace could be generated to intercut during the Starkiller battle. Maybe one of the pilots could jokingly say, “Where is everybody?” I guess the key might be to have a moment or two that reminds the audience that the fleet is on its way, and to create tension. Possibly redubbing that Resistance alien officer to say the Republic is assembling their fleet to help.

If it really couldn’t work there, you could possibly move the Hosnian destruction back to the second act (but keep what Restructured has, where Kylo’s Star Destroyer is above Takodana.) The only downside is that you would lose that deleted scene with Kor Sella and Leia, losing more political context in the film.

I really think the First Order fleet destroying Hosnian Prime would be a really cool sequence though if we can just figure out the structure of it.

Also, if we see the Dreadnought’s destructive force in TFA, it makes the battle of D’Qar feel more important because we know what these things are capable of.

Ah, you’re totally right! I forgot about that.
Here is the leaked shooting schedule for those interested. http://millenniumfalcon.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=9790
Definitely more focus on “the sword”, is the map even mentioned? I know there were rumors that the map was somehow in the lightsaber as well. But maybe Leia thought she could use the lightsaber to find Luke through the Force. I guess sort of like a search hound can find people by the scent of their clothing? Hahaha.

EDIT: There is one item in the schedule that reads:
INT DAY - 337 - RESISTANCE BASE - MAP ROOM • C3PO, R2-D2, and BB-8 solve the puzzle together.
But I think that is the only hint that there might’ve been a map during this point in the process.

Also if you want avoid Episode IX Spoilers I would suggest not reading through that either.

I actually went back to look at that leaked shooting schedule when I was thinking about this, there’s a lot of interesting stuff in there.

And that idea does make sense. I think you could probably do either version (they get the map, or they fail and Rey figures it out on her own), and it would only require a small amount of changes if you were to go the route I suggested. But I think to accomplish that, the focus of the movie really needs to be just on the map. The more I think about it, having Starkiller be a super weapon or star forge muddies the focus and makes the objective less clear. At least if you were to remove the briefing scene, which might be necessary if you want to make it clear to the audience that they’re going there to get the map. Having it be that they are going to get the map AND blow up their base might make their goals a little less focused, especially if we don’t spell out both goals for the audience, which we can’t really do without the additional dialogue. Just my initial thoughts though.

You would just need to replace any space shots of Starkiller with brand new shots (would probably be easier than painting it out I think).
Possibly a new shot or two of the Falcon and the X-Wings leaving Starkiller base, but you could still use the latter half of the shot of them jumping to hyperspace if you wanted.
The only other issue would be trying to hide the planet collapsing, during the duel. Though if you couldn’t, I don’t think it is a stretch that blowing up a tractor beam generator might have a pretty destructive effect, so it could just be the initial shockwave of it blowing up. I think it could work.

EDIT: Another little idea, during the battle there is a cutaway to the Resistance, and one of the alien officers says, “Two more X-wings down, that’s half our fleet destroyed.” That could be another possible location where dialogue related to the tractor beam could be placed.

To make that work with your idea, Nev, just have Phasma not give them the map, and change the screen graphics to reflect that. It plays out as is, but they still have to destroy the tractor beam to get off the planet, which we could remind the audience one or two times with the pilot VO or subtitles.

OutboundFlight, after I wrote my long post I went back to the first page of this thread and saw you suggest the very same thing, in a briefer way. I thought, “Outbound might like this!” Keep up with our conversations about it if you want because we could always use an extra perspective for problem solving!

The thing is, if we go the route of Starkiller just being a base, then the only thing we know they might be after would be the map.

Poe would tell Leia that Finn worked on the base, Finn tells Leia his friend was taken and that he has to get back to there. Leia asks him to tell them everything he knows. With an edit I mentioned earlier, Poe would know the First Order has the rest of the map already from his interrogation. When 3PO inserts BB-8’s portion of the map, he says it is incomplete and they don’t have enough information to find Luke.

The next scene is the R2 scene, where 3PO says he probably wouldn’t have the rest of the map in his back-up data (in this version he wouldn’t, but this scene would reiterate the objective). Next, Leia and Han talk, and a Resistance officer tells her the recon on the First Order base has come in (they know where the base is now).

The next scene is Rey’s interrogation, where Kylo could remind us again that they have the remaining portion of the map. If we cut the briefing scene, the next Resistance scene would be them getting ready for their mission, everybody running around and such. With no mention of a weapon or that they need to blow up anything, the audience is left to assume they are going to get the missing portion of the map, because that is what the movie has been telling us they are after.

When they hold Phasma hostage, we could simply change the screen to show a starfield map, and we would know that they are getting the map and they wouldn’t even have to say, “the map”!

And like I have mentioned before, we could rearrange some of the X-Wing dogfight shots when necessary, but we could add pilot VO that simply says, “We have to disable their tractor beam!” That’s really all we need to know about the “oscillator”. And the tractor beam has a stronger narrative purpose than just being a convenient weak spot of the weapon.

All of this is with the idea that Starkiller is just a normal planet.

Also, that would be a cool idea for your edit! They fail their mission, but if Rey has “seen” where Luke is, it would also help justify why Rey of all people has to find him.

What if you just cut that briefing scene altogether?

Either A) Phasma lowers the shields and also gives them the map. Maybe you could generate a shot of the screen where we see the shield lowering, and then later when she stands, we see the galaxy map on the screen, or vice versa.

Or B) there is no planetary shield, and Phasma just gives them the map (and possibly sounds the alarm). Black Squadron is either trying to destroy Starkiller (the weapon or the forge), or they are purely a distraction for Han & Finn. The oscillator could be turned into a tractor beam generator as well that they have to destroy.

EDIT: Han might say shield during the briefing scene. He mentions the shields having a fractional refresh rate during the hyperspace scene, but that can be cut, since later he says, “If we go any higher they’ll see us!”

Han during the the “that’s not how the Force works!” scene, he says “Then how do you know how to disable the shields?” That can be cut.

The only time it might be a problem is that when they get inside the base, he does say, “The shields?” and Finn in the same shot says, “I have an idea.” Either you could use some effect to make him not say anything. Or just cut that interaction and we can assume Finn figured something out. Or move that “I have an idea” line, to later. Or possibly cut to a different shot, maybe a cutaway to Chewie if possible, to remove that “shields” line. Removing any mention of the shields is possible I think.

Haha, thanks. I was planning on being productive tonight but that didn’t happen!

Yeah, it definitely requires a lot more work, but the groundwork has already been laid down by Restructured, at least.

And if we went with the Star Forge idea, it would require a little less fx work (or an equal amount if you have to generate those Star Destroyer shots), but more dialogue regarding Starkiller could be kept. The Resistance Base discussion would still be heavily trimmed, but a little less so than if Starkiller was a regular planet.

If you just tried to cut out every instance of them saying “weapon”, “laser cannon”, “Death Star”, “gun”, you would be left with something usable.

If you kept their mission of destroying the base, their mission becomes a little more unfocused (find the map AND, ironically, destroy the planet). You could keep the layout the same, but just swap out Starkiller Weapon with Starkiller Factory, but that would defeat the purpose of wanting to keep it focused on Luke.

And you’re right, having crazy tech in Star Wars is definitely a part of its style, but the craziest thing Empire Strikes Back had was the Super Star Destroyer, and in this version TFA would still have the First Order Dreadnoughts.

I mean if you did the Star Forge idea, would you have Phasma lower the shields and give them the map? Or just have no planetary shields?

Like I said, I think making Starkiller a Star Forge alone would still be a worthy idea to try and implement. I would at least see if it is possible to have the third act still focus on the McGuffin if possible too though.

This is something that has been discussed multiple times in the past but I figured I would reiterate my thoughts on it on the radical edit ideas thread.

Of course one of the big issues with TFA is how it bears a lot of similarities with ANH. I think the existence of Starkiller Base had a big part to play in that comparison. It really is the one thing that I think made a lot of people begin to draw comparisons. I think Restructured comes as close as possible to alleviating that comparison by having the Resistance fail at destroying Starkiller Base before it destroys the New Republic.

Since TFA came out, there has been a lot of talk of try to make Starkiller Base a star forge-like device, or even a regular base for the sole reason of not wanting another super weapon. I have to admit that the idea of of Starkiller Base has grown on me over time, and it makes since for the First Order to want to emulate the Empire, but beyond not liking the repetitiveness of the super weapon plot device, I do think there is a genuine narrative reason why removing it would be an improvement.

Really, TFA is about finding Luke Skywalker. It is really what the first two acts of the film are all about. But as soon as Starkiller Base is introduced, that plot gets sidelined in order to focus on them wanting to blow Starkiller up. Not only that, but we get that weird plot-point of R2 having the other half of the map, but randomly waking up at the end of the movie and conveniently having it (which Restructured also alleviates to a degree).

While I think there would be a lot of problems to solve in order to make this work, I think a radical idea for TFA would be to make the third act be about sneaking onto Starkiller Base in order to get the second half of the map to Skywalker.

Let me try to outline some of the changes:

• Of course, all shots of Starkiller Base would need to be altered to remove the giant hole in the planet, and instead make it look like a normal planet.

• When Kylo is interrogating Poe, you could reuse dialogue from Rey’s interrogation so he tells Poe that they have the rest of the map, recovered from the archives of the Empire. By adding that, now Poe knows that the First Order has the rest of the map.

• You would want to use Restructured’s version of the Takodana attack.

• One of the hardest changes would be to restructure the Resistance base scene to remove them talking about Starkiller base being a weapon, or them wanting to blow it up. Possibly a solution could be found by redubbing Ackbar, 3PO or a random Resistance officer to give a nice, concise line regarding their objective, and make the scene much shorter.

• Slightly trim Hux’s speech to remove “this fierce machine…upon which we stand”, just something like “we will bring an end to the Senate…” instead.

• Also, replace the sequence of Starkiller draining the sun with a fleet of Star Destroyers orbiting Starkiller jumping into hyperspace in different directions, to imply they are preparing to invade the Republic.

• When Han and Finn get to Starkiller base, Han jumps in low to avoid the scanners rather than jump through the planet’s shield. Later, they use Phasma to get the map instead of lowering the shields. Would just need to replace the graphics on screen. Using Nev’s idea, Phasma sounds the alarm.

• Add offscreen Resistance dialogue to say something about Han and Finn being exposed, or the alarm being set off, which then leads to Poe and Black Squadron to attack Starkiller Base as an distraction for Han and Finn to escape.

• During the dogfight, I was thinking some pilot chatter could be added to mention something about a tractor beam. This could be what the Oscillator is. (alternatively, the Oscillator could still be an oscillator, and Starkiller be like a factory and Black Squadron still wants to destroy it. Depends on if the ground destructions could be cut out or not.) If the Oscillator was a part of the tractor beam system, the shot of the X-Wing crashing into the ground in front of Han, Rey and Finn could be used somehow to imply this.

• Because of this tractor beam, they can’t leave, which is why they still try to go destroy it with the explosives. [Interestingly, according to some early TFA leaks, Hux originally might have had some kind of tech on Starkiller base that could pull ships to the ground, so it could be fitting].

• So when Kylo kills Han, instead of intercutting between that and Starkiller destroying Hosnian Prime, we cut to a scene of a fleet of Star Destroyers entering Hosnian Prime’s orbit. We could use footage from the D’Qar battle in TLJ to have multiple First Order dreadnoughts enter Hosnian’s orbit, then fire their cannons down onto the planet. We then could cut to the shot of Kor Sella as she watches those lasers come crashing down on them, destroying everything. This new sequence would be a combination of TFA footage, TLJ footage and some newly created shots. But structure-wise, it could play out similarly as it does in Restructured. After Han dies, cut to one half of Leia’s reaction shot, show First Order fleet destroying the New Republic, then cut to the latter half of Leia’s reaction shot, then back to Starkiller Base.

• Also instead of the sun disappearing, you could just make clouds block it out, or even a Star Destroyer.

• Chewie blows a hole in the building. Poe could fly in and blow it up but not exactly necessary. You would definitely probably want to avoid using Poe’s Death Star trench run at least. At some point you could add pilot VO about the tractor beam being disabled, or use a monitor shot from the First Order base to show the tractor beam being “drained” sort of like the shot of Obi-Wan turning it off in ANH. Some First Order VO could be used in this instance too.

• Throughout the rest of the Starkiller sequence, you would want to remove any shots of the ground breaking apart. I don’t know how feasible this is, but two possible solutions. If it is impossible to completely remove, you could have Starkiller be some kind of Star Forge device that they still destroy, my only gripe with this is how it kind of contradicts thee idea that arms dealers are selling weapons to the First Order, but I guess those two things aren’t necessarily incompatible, if arms dealers are selling them certain types of weapons, and even designs/schematics. A second option would be to make Starkiller look like it has giant cracks and rivers of lava in certain areas on the wide shots of the planet. Maybe one could add lava to that shot of the mountain on Starkiller right before Rey’s interrogation scene (it would be sort of reminiscent to some TFA concept art of a snowy planet with lava on it).

[If making Starkiller a star forge was necessary, you could keep the planets appearance similar, and the draining the sun thing, and have shot of Star Destroyers coming out of it earlier in the film, like an idea Neverar had. It would also visually explain how the Empire was able to rebuild unnoticed, and you could still have the Resistance destroy it. But wanted to try to come up with a solution that keeps the focus just on the McGuffin (aka Luke and the map) as much as possible.]

• Okay, so Rey beats Kylo, and when Chewie rescues them on the Falcon and they leave, one or two new shots would need to be made of them escaping Starkiller Base, since you can’t use the shots of the planet collapsing. You could still use the shot of the Falcon and the X-Wings jumping into hyperspace.

• Once they get back to the Resistance Base, have some Resistance VO say that Finn has the map as they’re carting him away. (Since it would be hard to create inserts of a hand holding a thing that has the map on it, we would have to stick with the implication that Finn got it when Phasma pulled it up. Then we would hear a Resistance tech or pilot confirm that he has it once we’re back at the base.)

• BB-8 could tell R2 the good news through beeps, which makes R2 wake up with excitement. Also, we would need to alter 3PO’s dialogue to tell R2 they found the map or that they can find Luke.

There probably would be a lot of smaller changes throughout as well, but I do think it such an edit could be possible. The big thing would be that there would need to be multiple shots with brand new effects, but by by removing Starkiller base and focusing on Luke, I think The Force Awakens would be a lot stronger than it already is. I think if enough people wanted to see this change and we figured out how each necessary change could be executed, then doing the fx work becomes pretty straightforward, and could be something that just gets knocked out over time.

Would be interested to hear people’s thoughts on this.