RogueLeader

That is exactly it! While I do think more people will come around to the film overtime, as people move on and then look back at it in retrospect, I can’t help but wonder if some things had been made a little clearer from the beginning that there wouldn’t be as much criticism.

I’m not saying I’m against radical changes, there are some more radical changes that I like for the prequels, and I would argue TFA: Restructured itself is a pretty big departure from the theatrical, but I don’t think a lot of people understand what TLJ was going for. I think the ideas of the film work, but maybe more people would’ve understood it if the film had spelled some things out just a bit more for the audience. You have to admit that for a two and a half hour film, there is a lot to digest.

And I’m not necessarily saying even certain small changes are necessary to improve the film, but I think they would be at least worth experimenting with to see how people respond to them. If I, or someone else, could make an edit that could make fans come around to TLJ more, then I would be pretty happy with that.

Eh, it is hard to say.

A lot of the common issues people bring up didn’t really bother me when I watched it initially. But over time I’ve read/heard fair arguments for why certain things didn’t work for them. But I think that a lot of those people would’ve been okay with those things if there was bit more clarity or restraint.

But I guess you can say it is in a way trying to please crowds, but a lot of people still might not be pleased with my restrained approach if they have their mind already set on certain things they don’t like about the movie.

One example is Rose saving Finn. I knew from my first screening that a lot of people wouldn’t like it, and I’ll admit it is a little cheesy. There have been a lot of edits that have tried to address this, but I try to go back to the original question of why it didn’t work for people. The most common answer I hear is that it wasn’t clear enough that Finn wouldn’t have stopped the cannon. So, what would be the smallest change that would have the biggest impact on addressing this issue?

That is really what an editor’s job is. Trying to make what is there, work. An editor needs restraint just as much as a director, and understanding their vision can help keep you grounded.

And there is also something satisfying about finding simple/clever solutions to problems rather than having to move mountains in order to address them.

Yeah, arguably one of the biggest themes of the entire saga is redemption. And I think with redemption also comes to question of forgiveness.

Both Darth Vader and Kylo Ren have done terrible things, but I think a big part of Vader’s atonement was his son forgiving him for what he did. Leia struggled with ever being able to forgive her father for what he did, and now she is ironically having to come to terms with that in the form of her own son.

I think an optimistic theme of these films is that it should never be too late for someone to do the right thing. To turn back. Obviously the question of forgiveness has been debated for ages by politicians, philosophers and religious leaders. But I think for Star Wars, it definitely does take the route of even the most evil people are capable of being forgiven for their sins.

And regardless of your own opinions regarding forgiveness, we have to acknowledge that the evil acts committed by those who are later redeemed in these films are sort of exagerrated for drama. Darth Vader murdered countless people, even children, but this is a fairy tale, so we shouldn’t equate his atonement to that of a mass murderer in real life. These horrible acts within the story are meant to be analogous to the common mistakes people make in everyday lives.

I don’t know exactly how they will portray Ben’s redemption, but I definitely see it happening, and I think Rey will play a part of it. It was romantic love in the prequels that tore the galaxy apart. And I think it will be romantic love that puts the galaxy back together.

I disagree with that. It definitely feels like they’ve been setting it up to be endgame. And just because we can’t see how it will come about based off the last two movies doesn’t mean they haven’t come up with a way to make it work that we haven’t considered.

Thanks for the input.

Hmm, that is an interesting thought. You could pull “awaken” from Snoke’s dialogue from TFA. Although I think the whish of Luke’s lightsaber activating probably woke Kylo up.

Thanks. I think this is how I want to approach edits for TLJ. Try to address the issues a lot of people had with the movie without fundamentally changing the director’s vision.

Did you have any thoughts about showing/not showing Han and Leia “dying”?

Another question,

Regarding the third flashback scene in The Last Jedi. If you didn’t change anything about, but added very quick flashes of Ben becoming Kylo Ren and killing people, do you think it would improve that scene or detract from it?

I’ve had some conversations with people who have said they might have understood Luke more if they were shown was look saw. Do you agree or disagree?

If one were to do this, I think very quick, almost subliminal, flashes on the beat of the score would be the most effective way of doing this without covering Mark Hamill’s performance. And as far as the flashes go, what shots would work well with this idea?

Here are some ideas:

• Reverse shot of Kylo taking his mask off so he is putting it on.
• Kylo swinging saber down on Lor San Tekka
• Shot of Kylo from TFA teaser
• Poe screaming during interrogation
• Kylo stabbing Clan Leader from Rey’s vision.
• Kylo and the Knights of Ren from Rey’s vision.
• Kylo on the Finalizer looking at Starkiller laser.
• Starkiller destroying Hosnian Prime.
• Evil-looking shots of Adam Driver’s face.
• Kylo slicing up Finn.
• A close-up shot of Luke’s dead students in front of the burning temple (possibly remove R2).
• Kylo stabbing Han.
• Leia apparently dying on Raddus bridge or dead in space, or killed on a transport or on Crait.
• Possible deleted/BTS footage.
• Possible Episode IX footage

I think around 6-8 shots would be enough. 7 might be the sweet spot. Personally, I think showing Han and Leia “dying” might seem weird, especially if Luke foresaw their deaths specifically and still decided to go into hiding know that possible future.

But here is what Luke says during that scene to get an idea of what Luke might’ve saw:

I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become, and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow, and I was left with shame and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him.

It definitely seems like Luke was getting glimpses of Ben’s future when he looked into his mind. And the line “everything I love” would likely include Han and Leia, but I definitely think that at least includes his Temple and all of his students.

What are your thoughts on this?

I think it would be simply enough to desaturate the wide shots of the sun from space to a near-white, and even the sun already looks pretty white from the surface of Starkiller, so you wouldn’t necessarily have to change it. You could just argue the atmosphere makes the sun appear a little yellower from the surface.

If you’re using Restructured as your basis, you might also want to desaturate the reversed shots of Hux looking at the draining as well maybe?

Hahaha, yeah you have definitely have thought this through more than JJ or Kasdan!

If you made it a white dwarf, would you change the the color of the sun to a whiter color as well?

My guess is that maybe George felt Nute Gunray needed to die onscreen, since he has been a baddy over all three films. But I don’t think most people would have cared. They would have rather seen Anakin kill some Jedi I think!

Yeah, so when Palpatine tells him to go to the temple and then to Mustfar, it cuts to Anakin around when he starts saying to wipe out “Nute Gunray and other seperatists leaders”. You could change that dialogue to something about a Jedi outpost, or you could just have him not mention Mustfar here, and/or keep him saying the remaining Jedi “will be dealt with”.

When Anakin speaks to Padmé, you could trim the dialogue to just say, “The Chancellor has given me a very important mission…on the Mustafar system.” Or add some dialogue about the Jedi if it can fit.

Then if one were to reshoot the Mustafar bits, you could just have one of the Jedi briefly explain why they’re there. I would just say that a group of Jedi regrouped there, and maybe they think Anakin is another survivor. And then Anakin uses the Force to close the doors.

This idea has actually been discussed before. Since Anakin is shrouded in his robes, this is something that could possibly be reshot if some plates were created of the rooms and then actors in costume films in front of a green screen. You would also need to rework some character dialogue to remove mention of the Separatists on Mustafar, and possibly add some to get that info across.

And you could just trim Obi-Wan’s Utupau mission to have Obi-Wan jump down before the Separatist leaders leave. That way we could just assume they get captured by the Clone Army before they can escape.

Is that a shareable link? It says I have to request access.

I agree with you oojason, I see that as very likely.

I know for some time Lucas acted like theatrical reels of the the old films didn’t exist, and now that we have things like the 4K projects is a pretty big comfort. Because of that, what I’m most curious about now is a possible upscaling process for AOTC and ROTS. It would be a bit of a shame if those movies couldn’t stand up to the quality of the rest of the films.

How exactly would that work? Would it be necessary to redo any vfx?

Are there any examples of 2K films that have been upscaled to 4K? And if there are, how do they look?

I had some ideas regarding Holdo, Canto Bight, and the B Plot in general, and I wanted to share them here and get some thoughts.

This first post is going to be able most of the Poe/Holdo stuff specifically.

A lot this is going to be sorta stream of consciousness, because really it is just notes I’ve written down over the course of a few days in my spare time, so apologies in advance.

So to start off, I think a lot of these ideas go with the idea I’ve mentioned before of having additional insert shots during the battle of D’Qar that shows the First Order “slicing” into the Raddus’ navicomputer. I think this would do a lot for the movie. When Poe decides to stay and destroy the dreadnought, that gives the First Order enough time to complete their connection and track them, and this way their tracking tech feels less like it came out of nowhere.

I would also suggest cutting Hux being visibly shaken after they escape, and maybe even cut him being reprimanded by Snoke. I think it would be better if the opening battle still felt like a victory for Hux. That way, it helps justify his overconfidence and hubris during the rest of the movie. Hux’s hubris, imo, is really the most logical excuse for why the FO doesn’t try to flank the Resistance or swarm them with TIE fighters. Hux is merely overconfident and wants to relish in his victory, so any change that helps support that premise makes that idea clearer.

Later when the FO fleet shows up, Leia says, “They’ve tracked us through lightspeed.”
Cut Finn’s “that’s impossible” and cut Leia’s “yes, and they’ve done it”, and just start with Finn’s next line after that about if they jumped again they’d be screwed. Now, it makes it seem like the Resistance is a little more aware of the technology, which helps set up something for later. (ALSO, you would think Finn, of all people, would know that it might be possible)

First Holdo scene -
No ideas for any big edits yet. Maybe cut the shot of Poe looking around after she dismisses everyone. But otherwise, I don’t really see a good way to cut it. Plus, if the Resistance seems to be more aware of hyperspace tracking, then Holdo would possibly know that not only is Poe responsible for the deaths of the many Resistance pilots, but also for giving the FO enough time to track the Raddus. That, plus other reasons, like Poe immediately lying about his rank to a superior officer, and his attitude in general, you can sorta understand why Holdo would be mad. I also think the audience is meant to not like and distrust Holdo at this point, so we shouldn’t feel like she is being fair to Poe initially. In my head, I also feel that Holdo is still figuring out the details of her plan at this point. But, more of my following ideas are meant to try to make Holdo more relatable in the following scenes of her. Maybe some other people have ideas for this scene though.

In the scene where the first ship runs out of fuel, I want to add a new voice over.
Maybe in between Holdo watching the other captain die saying “Godspeed Rebels!” on the hologram, and when Connix asks what to do next, you could have an offscreen Officer say “Transports have arrived undetected.” This helps set up that Holdo knew what she was doing and was testing out her theory to see if transports could go undetected by the First Order.

I just went back and watched this scene, and Connix actually says, “Admiral, six hours of fuel left.”
I’ve mentioned this before, but I also think that any specific mention of time (like a certain amount of hours remaining) should be cut. I think how much time passes should remain ambiguous. So instead, maybe her line could be just cut down to, “Admiral…” as if she were awaiting orders, which Holdo then responds to appropriately.

Something like that might not be immediately recognized by the audience, but once her plan is revealed to Poe, it would be nice for the audience to internally go, “Ohhh, that’s what she was doing” when looking back at it.
Speaking of which, I kinda want to cut Poe’s line, “That could work” when Leia explains it to him.

Poe Makes a Scene -
*Poe barges in.
*Poe: Tell us, that there’s a plan. *[cut “that there’s hope”]
*Cut “hope is like the sun” line
*Cut Poe finishing quote
*Holdo then responds to Poe’s question with a calm “Yes”
*Cut to the shot of the computer screen with the transports on it.
*Over that shot, have Holdo start saying, “When I served under Leia, she-“
*Poe cuts her off: You’re fueling up the transports?
*Cut to Holdo, but make the shot slightly shorter, so Poe walks away before she can really say anything, instead of just staring at him.
*Poe walks up to the terminal, starts his rant. As Holdo enters the bottom of Poe’s frame, have her say “Captain” taken from the first scene, as if she is trying to talk, but Poe keeps going. By the end, when he calls her a traitor, she kicks him off the bridge for going too far.

I’d have to see it to know if it would work for sure, but this scene is meant to show Holdo trying to be a little more reasonable with Poe. Now, when Poe asks if there even is a plan, she calmly says yes. And while her next line would be the start of the whole “Hope is like the sun” line, now it can be up to interpretation. She might’ve been just saying that in this version too, but one also could interpret it as Holdo about to tell Poe that Leia told her about Crait. But, Poe being paranoid, jumped to conclusions and doesn’t give her a chance to explain. I just think this would help bridge that gap between not liking Holdo and finally liking Holdo by the end, if at this point she seems a little more reasonable.

Poe’s Mutiny -
Two options

Either keep it the same, except cut Holdo saying “I hope you know what you’re doing” and Poe’s “Yeah”. Again, not giving Holdo much of a chance to say anything. Poe just tells them to guard them and then walks toward the bridge, or just cut away from the scene before Holdo says that line. Next time we cut back to Poe, he’s walking to the bridge.

Or, don’t have Poe hold Holdo (heh) at gunpoint at all. Just cut that scene. Next time we cut to Poe, he is walking to the bridge. Cut Poe’s line “Yeah, we spoke”, probably just by cutting to the control panel shot sooner. One benefit of cutting it is that by not having Poe hold her at gunpoint, it might seem less weird for her to later say “I like him”, later after he did something so drastic.

Have him start turning off the lights in the hangar, but cut the shot of the pilots holding Holdo at gunpoint, the subsequent shoot out, Poe seeing it on the screen and telling Connix to shut the door. So now, it goes like, Hanger light #1 ‘off’, #2 ‘off’, then cut back to Connix shutting the bridge door.
Between then and when they start burning through the door, you could either add knocking on the door, or maybe some kind alarm sound to show that the Resistance has caught on to Poe hijacking the ship.
Maybe use this Tantive IV alarm sound. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lq_voGkLFD8

Later on, at some point once Holdo sits in the captain’s chair to turn the Raddus around, generate a new shot using the insert of the captain’s chair screen from Poe’s hijacking scene. This time, the shot will show the Raddus pointing toward the Supremecy, but the line of the Raddus’ hyperspace trajectory is lining up with a blue blinking dot that is inside the Supremecy. So during the build up toward the ramming, we’ll see this shot, a repeated shot of the active tracker, and then show it again when she goes to lightspeed, we’ll cut back to it very briefly right as she jumps, and the tracker will flash in a bright white light.

I had made this suggestion awhile back on the TLJ ideas thread, but EddieDean recently suggested the same thing. He worded it very nicely.

EddieDean said:

Regarding the Holdo hyperspace ram and the new hyperspace tracking, maybe these could be tied together. I like the earlier suggestion that hyperspace tracking requires something hyperspatial on the tracking ship (rather than the tracked one), but maybe that could become the weakness that the Raddus uses to attack it directly. Perhaps as Holdo prepares the attack, we could cut to a Raddus screen with some imagery making it clear that it’s locked on to the FO ship’s hyperspace tracker. Perhaps even with a further shot of the tracker itself, just to hammer it home. That would neatly explain why this technique hasn’t been used elsewhere, when it seems like such a powerful but accessible weapon.

It really fits in well with the idea that the bad guy’s technology also carries the seed of the downfall. I was also thinking that you could put a version of that Supremecy graphic with a blue dot inside it (representing the active tracker/hyperspace anomaly), or maybe with a graphic of the active tracker alongside it, in an earlier scene to help imply that Holdo was studying the Supremecy. Maybe in the scene where Poe has his tantrum, you could put this Supremecy graphic on the screen next to the one that shows the transports.

And when Holdo rams into the Supremecy, you could have it where it looks like the ship began splitting halfway through the ship rather than all the way through it. This would be another little thing that helps imply that the Raddus hit the tracker, that is in the middle of the ship, rather than the ship just going right through it.

And possibly, but not necessary, you could superimpose a blue hyperspace tunnel-like effect inside the active tracker array window, to help visually infer that it is connected to hyperspace, sorta like they’ve created a hyperspace bubble inside the ship. Or you could possibly give the room a blue tone.

If you have any thoughts about these ideas please share them.

paja said:

If you had a chance to go to any of three planets where would you go?

I would love to experience the cityscape of Coruscant, enjoy the view from Cloudy City on Bespin, and watch the binary sunset on Tatooine.

I think he meant that instead of showing flashes of the First Order and Starkiller Base, Kylo Ren shows flashes of himself being intimidating. I’m guessing stuff like him killing Lor San Tekka, showing off his saber/force abilities, etc.

Huh, that is a new idea! So even though Finn and Han don’t rescue Rey directly, they still help by buying her more time.

I had thought about cutting Rey’s escape to where she says the mind trick the final time, the trooper just stands there for a beat, and then it cuts to Kylo Ren walking in and she is gone. So we know she did it but don’t actually see her do it (so the first time we really see her “use the Force” is with the lightsaber pull. But, if you base it off the theatrical version, it really doesn’t matter too much the time between Rey escaping and Kylo discovering it, because we see Rey do the mind trick successfully before Kylo comes in, so we know she’ll be gone. So just extending it like in your version doesn’t really change that.

There were a few things I was initially iffy about, I thing it still works logically. Like Han and Finn still being detected even though they stayed low so they wouldn’t, but you could argue they just saw a weird “blip”, and if they had gone higher they definitely would’ve known it was a ship.

Then you wonder, why did they send Kylo to check it out and not some scouts? But honestly I don’t think this is a big deal. I mean, he is not really in a hurry to get back, as far as he knows Rey’s know going anywhere.

Also, Kylo not sending Han until he is closer makes a lot of sense too.

And you’re also suggesting to generate some Stormtrooper comm chatter of some Base disturbances, which is what encourages Rey to try the mind trick again, right? I think that would connect the scenes together as well. The cut back to her becomes more motivated.

I guess the only question would be if it all would work pacing-wise, but I think we’ll just have to see a rough cut to really get a feel for it. One thing that might seem weird back to back is Kylo discovering Rey’s escaped, then immediately being informed she hasn’t been found in the hangar. But I think it could work. I would really like to see this concept.

This is kind of unrelated, but I had an aesthetic thought regarding Starkiller. I was wondering how effective it would be if in the space establishing shots of Starkiller Base, that nebulae were added into the space around it. Basically the idea being that it would make the area of space Starkiller Base is in feel more exotic. Since we have never really seen nebulae in the Star Wars movies before, it could be used to establish a sort of visual aesthetic for uncharted space, and the Unknown Regions more specifically. If it gave the feeling that Starkiller was almost shrouded in these space clouds, it would help give the feeling of Starkiller being “hidden” from the Republic, maybe.

You could also do this with Ach-To as well, since it is also apparently in the Unknown Regions.

Paja, I’d definitely be interested in hearing you do some more of those. I especially would be curious to see the way you approach the Anakin/Padmé romance. You could even use some of the deleted scenes with unfinished effects if you wanted (since that doesn’t matter much!)

Hey man, as long as you’re having fun doing whatever edit you do, I’m totally behind it. Looking forward to hearing more.

Hmm, I think that might be my favorite one yet.

Huh, that is actually kind of cool! Interesting how the rain just adds a lot of ambience to the scene.

Technical note, the sound gets weird when the dart is supposed to hit her. You don’t hear the dart, and it sounds like somebody’s line was cut off as well.

Your edit is hot, Poppa!

That’s an interesting point.

That “Lune Lovegood” personality that disappeared in the film is actually still present in the novel Leia: Princess of Alderaan, which is about when Leia learned that her father was a part of the Rebellion and then joined it herself, around the age of 16. A young Holdo is also present in the book, and her personality is apparently pretty eccentric in there. Clearly Claudia Gray wrote it before they changed her character in the edit. I guess you could write it off as her personality maturing as she got older.

I would really like to see the alternate version of those scenes and actually see how “spaced out” she really was. I wonder exactly why that didn’t work in the edit. Did her quirks make it seem ridiculous that she would be in charge? Was it just too weird?

A part of me wonders if some pertinent info may have been lost by making that change. Would people have understood her more by the end of it with those alternate lines?

Han went onto that catwalk with a strong feeling that he would die, but he did it anyway because he loves his son.

That definitely be a bit of work since you would need to generate totally new shots.

Honestly I agree with ziggy’s pov about Rey’s connection with the Force being something the slowly reveals itself over the course of the movie, and showing too much at the beginning of the film could go against that. It reminds me that I was initially kind of on the fence about the short Reydream sequence. Even though I liked it, I felt even that might be spelling it out too much for the audience.

Instead of drawings on paper, what if you flipped the shots of the wall that she marks days on, remove the markings, and in its place you could put drawings that she had carved into the wall. At the very minimum, you could have a crude drawing of the island. Maybe that could still be foreshadowing, but not necessarily a blatant sign that she has a strong connection to the Force.

I guess a lot of it boils down to perspective. I won’t ask about TLJ, but the Jabba rescue and the Jedi in the arena both work for me. The Han rescue used to be confusing to me, but in my head at least I’ve rationalized it.