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RogueLeader

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Post
#1578300
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

I think it would make sense to have Dooku still be a member of the Order during TPM.

There is also another issue you run into by trying to introduce Dooku in TPM. Sure, you could tease him, but I feel like it would be strange to show him (like appearing ominously at Qui-Gon’s funeral), but to not give the audience information as to who he is. It could work well at misleading the audience into assuming that he’s the Sith Lord, only to reveal in the second film more details of who he is and why he was there. This would especially work well if Dooku is briefly seen overlooking Qui-Gon’s funeral after Mace Windu’s line, “Then who was destroyed? The master? Or the apprentice?” Snooker made a nice test of this idea forever ago and I know others have made similar things. Plus, it would be simpler to de-age him just for one shot.


This would go against canon, but I feel like this idea would pair well with Dooku not actually being a Sith Lord, but simply a fallen Jedi. Then in AOTC we are kind of on the same page as the Jedi as far as not knowing who or what to believe. We don’t have the additional context of Palpatine’s machinations.

It would also add to why the Jedi are skeptical of Palpatine in ROTS. Anakin killed Dooku, who they thought might be the “Sith Lord”, but things still don’t feel right. The Force still feels out of balance.

But simply removing the scene of Palpatine and Dooku at the end of AOTC would help this idea even if Dooku is actually a Sith and working with Palpatine.

This would also go against canon, but I could also imagine a version of TPM where Dooku was on the Jedi Council as a voice of opposition against the majority opinion that spoke out in favor of his former apprentice. But I feel like it would be difficult to make such a scene work with the material available. No real way to make it clear who Dooku is, so in a way the mystery angle that I mentioned above might be best.

Post
#1578288
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Omg that is hilarious. 😂 I was like, “Any prequel edit idea imaginable has been suggested in this thread so I know it’s been mentioned before” it’s come full circle.

Yeah, having face be totally obscured and voice distorted could definitely help. Though if one were to try and set up Dooku as a sort-of red herring, I feel like the voice would need to be obscure enough that it could be confused for either Palpatine or Dooku. Potentially layering their voice using AI? (Ironically kind of like how Gandalf and Saruman’s voices are layered when Aragorn and crew encounter the White Wizard for the first time).

Just to clarify, I’m not saying “Oh I believe this MUST be done!” Just spitballing ideas for fun.

Post
#1578259
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

I think this has been suggested in other ideas people have shared here over the years, but by showing Dooku in TPM you could also play around with the implication that he is the “master” Mace and Yoda speculate about. It would be interesting if Sidious=Palpatine could be more of a twist, where we actually never see Sidious until Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin.

A Pro would be that Anakin could blame Dooku for indirectly causing Qui-Gon’s death if he thought Dooku was the master of his killer. And, the prequels could play out in an interesting way if “Who is the Sith Lord” was more of a mystery.

On the other hand, you would have to cut a not-insignificant amount of runtime to cut all of Sidious’ scenes. He has quite a few with Nute Gunray in TPM, but only one in AOTC (but his one scene is important because it reveals Dooku’s Sith name, which helps add clarity to the cloning mystery) and one in ROTS with Grievous.

Post
#1577750
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

I don’t think any of your thoughts really contradict my point either. Maybe the Sith in particular were the cause of this major unbalance that needed to corrected. I don’t think that fact really goes against the idea of there being a cycle of war and peace that just inherently exists in the universe, both ours and Star Wars. And, like I said, you can’t deny that cycle has existed up until the Skywalker Saga, and maybe ultimate balance is achieved by the end of TROS, but it still would make sense for the characters within the story to address that cycle. Especially if they thought balance HAD been restored and the cycle broken. So history repeating itself would make them question everything: if this war will ever end, if balance can truly be restored. Even the idea of there being a second chosen one raises the question of how often has the Force produce such beings? Regardless, maybe all of that ends up does end up happening by the end of the Saga. Both of those facts can be true. That the Sith cancer was destroyed, the Force has been healed, ultimate balance has been restored, but that doesn’t mean there will never be enemies to fight again. I think addressing it kind of future-proofs the franchise by pointing that out. I definitely agree with you that it would be nice for the Rey movie to be small scale and I hope for that too, but I honestly doubt there will never be a large-scale threat that takes place post Skywalker Saga.

Also the whole idea behind addressing this idea of the Star Wars cycle was to twist the way the ST just riffs off the Original Trilogy by making it a strength rather than a weakness. Or at least by making it sort of the point. I mean, all of the elements are already there. This just connects the dots.

It felt wrong to a lot of people that the happy ending of the original trilogy was replaced with the happy ending for the sequel trilogy. I just think a lot of that can be mitigated when the story addresses the fact the Clones Wars, the Galactic Civil War, and the First Order-Resistance War are all a series of wars that are inherently a part of life in the Star Wars universe. There are all just civil wars. Even the Jedi/Sith conflict is arguably a civil war if one religion split from the other.

I think if that was kind of the theme an edit were highlighting, it can help justify repetitive decisions like Starkiller Base, another Jedi Purge, Palpatine returning, etc. Because it emphasizes this idea of the cycle. History repeating. The wheel spinning. Generations forgetting and then making the same mistakes. It makes those story decisions feel more necessary because it adds to the point that the story is trying to make. If the events of the ST were what achieved the ultimate happy ending, then it still feels like it just stole that happy ending from the original trilogy. The ORIGINAL happily ever after.

Do you get what I’m saying? Return of the Jedi was THE happy ending. The only way retconning that really feels earned is if the Sequel Trilogy was trying to say that there really is no absolute happy ending. There are a series of bad beginnings and happy endings. If TROS is just replaced ROTJ as THE happy ending, then you’re kind of like, “What was the point of going through all of this again?”. The cycle theme kind of addresses that there will always be wars (external and internal) to fight, but even fleeting peace is worth fighting for. It just gives the ST another strong, coherent theme that connects each film that, upon release, we’re criticized for being a little disjointed.

But I definitely agree with your hopes that now the Sith (or at least the Banite Sith) are gone for good, and we will have a new and improved Jedi Order for future stories to explore new ideas. Regardless, I think this theme would probably always be relevant because of how universal it is. And like I said, the theme is arguably there already in the movies. You could emphasize them with new AI dialogue but you probably could still manage it without it.

But I def agree that they should start getting into Old Republic stuff! Crazy that they still haven’t.

Post
#1577713
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

I really like this Jolee Bindo quote from Knights of the Old Republic.

“Malak is a tyrant who should be stopped. If he conquers the galaxy, we’re in for a couple of rough centuries. Eventually it’ll come around again, but I’d rather not wait that long. So we do what we have to do and we try to stop the Sith. But don’t start thinking this war, your war, is more important than any other war just because you’re in it.“

I do think the Skywalker Saga is the definitive conclusion of the war with Palpatine, but I think it is naive to think that future stories won’t deal with conflicts between good and evil, good guys and bad guys, the dark side and the light. Hopefully they take a different form than the Sith, but I’m sure the new Rey movie will deal with the New Jedi Order addressing some new type of conflict or enemy, and that’s what I’m talking about.

A franchise called “Star Wars” is likely never going to have a happily ever after that is permanent. There’s always going to be some conflict or war that has to be fought. I mean, you say, “ there should really be another sequel trilogy if that is the case, and on and on into infinity.” That’s sort of what is happening though. We’re getting at least one movie that is forward in time that is 100% going to deal with some type of conflict or dilemma. And, the franchise is already going back in time to show countless other wars and conflicts that happened before the Skywalker Saga. 25,000 years cycling through war and peace. And even if Episode IX is the end of that and there is never a dark side wielding enemy ever again, there clearly has been a cycle of war between the Jedi and the Sith for literally a thousand generations. You can’t argue that. But maybe it is over now, but the point that I would suggest trying to make in this hypothetical type of edit is that regardless of whether or not the cycle is broken with Palpatine’s death, that peace and balance is worth fighting for even if it isn’t permanent. But maybe it is!

At one point in time I was really hoping that there would be some kind of resolution to the flaws of the Jedi Order, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the new Rey movie addresses that in some way, but I think from both an in-universe and narrative standpoint it’s unlikely the Jedi will make some fundamental philosophical change that avoids Jedi from falling to the dark side. Even in Legends, where Luke more clearly shook up the old Jedi ways and made it something grayer, plenty of Jedi still fell to the dark side. And good guys being corrupted or bad guys being redeemed is such a huge theme in Star Wars that making some big storytelling decision that the Jedi are “fixed” now and no Jedi will ever fall again just is unlikely. Where’s the fun in that? The Jedi can be better but that internal conflict will always exist and need to be confronted by future Jedi.

It also speaks to reality as well. Sure, we don’t have Jedi/Sith, the Force, galactic wars, but humans are imperfect, and so is civilization. We’re always fighting for peace in our communities and also within ourselves, and it is a constant struggle. Just because those things aren’t permanent doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight for those things. That’s just what I’m speaking to. Star Wars might not have a happily forever after, but there’s plenty of happily afters for every new adventure they decide to tell.

Post
#1577464
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Yeah, you could just say something like, “When she started her training, she felt darkness grow within her. Leia feared what she could do with that power. To give into hate. So she left the Jedi path. Throughout her life, Leia lost everything, and everyone, but in the end, she still chose love.”

Something like that. I don’t think room for dialogue is a big issue, there’s a lot of dead air that could be filled in that scene. And I also think the whole “surrendering her saber to me” stuff isn’t really necessary so could be replaced. I think what you’ve written is already way better than the theatrical. I feel like the original feels very lore-focused than character-focused if that makes sense. Like it’s gotta answer questions, justify stuff. I like the idea of this tying to Luke reassuring Rey that Leia felt the same things she is feeling, and yours hits on that well too!

Post
#1577436
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

This is a random thought that I may do nothing with, and it has been discussed before but I could see some potential of expanding on the idea that Rey can use Force psychometry, like Cal Kestis in Fallen Order/Survivor. There’s several instances where she has visions when she touches objects. You could lean into that and use it to explain why she seems to quickly gain powers. Maybe you could take these moments and add some kind of vision effect on top of them to make it clearer that they are things Rey is seeing in her mind.

In TFA, the Skywalker Saber
In TLJ, the the stone surface of the island during Luke’s first lesson, the glass wall in the Dark Side cave and Ben’s hand in the Ahch-To Hut
In TROS, the Dagger, the Wayfinder, and Leia’s Saber

The only time she has a vision that really isn’t trigger by touching an object is the vision she has at the beginning of TROS, but you could imply it’s triggered by Kylo Ren touching Vader’s helmet or the Mustafar Wayfinder, if you have that happen simultaneously.

Post
#1577431
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Darth Raditz said:

Not necessarily connected to any of my previous ideas, but there’s a bit of dialogue from the DotF script Leia had that I’d love to see inserted back in. After Rey decided to go off alone, Luke & Leia have a discussion concerning her & the Jedi Order. Luke says the reason the Jedi Order lived in isolation is because the pain of loss leads to the dark side. Leia has a response that perfectly encapsulates her character:

“I’ve lost everything, and everyone. But I’d still choose to love.”

Not to spend a ton of time going into detail, but I was actually thinking about this line the day before you made this post!

I actually think an edit could potentially paraphrase this line, but have someone else say it in reference to Leia, rather than Leia herself.

For example, you could totally change Luke’s dialogue during the Leia’s training flashback. If the previous convo between Rey and Luke was about Rey being afraid of the darkness in herself, and the need for Rey to confront that fear, then this scene could continue that topic. Instead of Luke talking about Leia having a bad vision to explain why she stopped her training, maybe he could say something like: As the Force grew stronger in her, she felt darkness within herself too. Leia feared what she could do with that power. To give into hate. Throughout her life, Leia lost everything, and everyone, but in the end, she still chose love. That’s what she wanted to teach you. A thousand generations live in you now. But this is your fight. Your trial to face.

You could be more specific, that she stopped her Jedi training because she was afraid of the darkness she felt within herself. And after she started training Rey, she realized she shouldn’t have stopped, and wanted Rey to learn from her mistake.

Post
#1576972
Topic
The Last Jedi: Stoic Edition (WIP)
Time

Here was the outline of ideas I had regarding it.

During the Maz Hologram:

Maybe Maz could say “there’s only one guy I KNOW” rather than one guy she “trusts”.

When 3PO says, “oh my” before his close-up, perhaps you could add a line from Maz saying that he is wanted in twenty systems. Something about him being a wanted man could explain why he chooses to sleep in a prison for safety or something, and why he keeps a low profile.

New C-3PO line: How do we find this Master Codebreaker?

Cut the line/shot of Maz saying, “Oh yes, he can.”

Keep the shot of Rose and Finn giving each other that look, but have put a Maz new line over it.
New Maz line: He’ll find you…

Briefly keep following shot of Maz just saying, “In the casino-“ and continue scene as-is. So nothing about the red plom bloom.

Maybe cut the scene of cops looking at Finn and Rose’s ship, unless you can think of a new line that would fit the alien here. Maybe something like, “Our client is looking for two humans who landed their shuttle here. They likely went up to the casino.”

Cut the shot/line where Rose mentions looking for the red plom bloom.

Replace Finn saying, “Zero red plom blooms” with something that matches his mouth movements. Something like, “We’ve covered this whole casino, no luck/zero luck/nothing, etc.”

When BB-8 rolls up to them on the balcony, have Finn or Rose off screen say, “Security?”

Then when they are running back into the casino, cut around all of the red plom bloom/Master Codebreaker stuff. Maybe have Finn say, “We gotta get out of here” as they are running. Then, they get caught. The alien can say, “There they are! Put them with our friend in cell 4EB!” (You don’t have to do these lines exactly, just depends on how obvious you want to make it)

Then, when they’re in the cell, replace DJ’s line, “Uh, I can do it” with something like, “Looking for me?”

Replace Finn saying, “Did he just-?” with “Is he the-?”

There’s opportunity to change other lines but I think these would be the big needed changes at least. And then, later when Poe asks if they found the Master Codebreaker, Finn needs to say yes.

Post
#1576946
Topic
The Last Jedi: Stoic Edition (WIP)
Time

Yay! Happy to see you here.
I’d totally help with Jar Jar on cleaning up/making some lines for your project.
Also, revisiting the DJ stuff, do you think it is possible that you could solve the DJ=Master Codebreaker problem through AI voice lines?

Awhile back I was actually making edit notes for TLJ an expanded on the idea of making DJ the Codebreaker, inspired by you, and I think I came up with another approach. I may have to go back and look for it and see if it could possibly work for you if you’re interested.

Post
#1576766
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker: Chosen One Edition (WIP)
Time

I feel like this phrasing just feels strange. You have that first sentence, “Nobody has claim to those the Force made” followed by, “That choice belongs to you”. What “choice” are you referring to? I feel like the preceding sentence needs to reference some kind of choice. Your origin isn’t something you can choose. Something like “our past doesn’t determine our future, that choice belongs to you” could work better and not be as wordy.

A lot of the dialogue you have written is good, but I do feel some lines feel more verbose/wordy while a lot of Star Wars dialogue feels simple/poetic. Don’t know if that makes sense.

Post
#1574627
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Thanks, Snooker!

@Starkiller
I mean, it would basically imply that the same amount as Ascendant does. But no version of the movie makes it 100% unambiguously clear that he won’t return. I mean he basically spelled out he won’t but even then it isn’t 100%.

I like the idea that Nev had to make it clear that it’s Exegol itself, and specifically the Sith Throne (maybe acting as a conduit for this powerful nexus of the dark side), is Palpatine’s secret to cheating death. So if an edit were to accomplish that vision of having Rey deflect Palpatine’s lightning at the throne and destroying it, it would make that clear. I think the Force ghosts appearing in Ascendant helps with that too, but that it would make a difference in keeping Palpatine from returning again is still just implied. And honestly, the potential of Palpatine just returning again seems like a logical question people in-universe might ask if he apparently has learned how to cheat death.

But the point is that it doesn’t matter if Palpatine comes back again or not. Palpatine coming back was worst-case scenario. This isn’t trying to say the exact same thing is gonna happen every 30 years. Some bad thing will eventually threaten peace in the galaxy again. Palpatine is the embodiment of evil, so he just kind of represents that for the Skywalker Saga. And this is the end of the Skywalker Saga so I agree this should be the end of Palpatine too.

Post
#1574563
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

@Nev
I think something vague like, “forging a new destiny” could be good.

Kinda speaking toward your idea of making Rey’s potential death a part of the visions, I like the idea of the visions centering around the concept of either Rey or Kylo dying. Only one can survive, one can rule, according to Palpatine (Maybe speaks to the selfishness inherent to the dark side). And it makes their duel on the Death Star feel inevitable, fated even.

So, it pits Kylo’s two desires against each other. Does he wants to rule/win, or does he want to be with Rey? In TLJ, he tries to have it both ways, but Rey refuses him. So what if this time, he is explicitly telling Rey that he would rather be with her than to rule? This might surprise or shock Rey, but Rey still refuses him, because she would essentially be abandoning her friends and her mission. And even though it is still a selfish choice for Kylo, it is a step down from wanting to be a dictator, which helps ease the audience into his redemption and the kiss him and Rey share at the end of the film. Because saying he wants to run away with her is a stronger hint to the audience that his desire to be with her is more romantic than political. Him saying something like, “we can rule the galaxy together”, “forge a new destiny”, “nothing will stand in our way”, still implies to the audience that his interest in Rey may have more to do with the power their alliance could bring rather than being interested in Rey herself. I feel like this is why a lot of general audience members felt their kiss came out of left field. There wasn’t enough explicit dialogue about them actually wanting to “be” together in a romantic way.

The dagger stuff is interesting. I’m gonna have to think about it more/read more of your thoughts about it. I will say initially it feels like could be a complicated plot point to have to explain, but I’ve come around to your ideas a lot! It might work well for Palpatine lying about Rey being a Palpatine though.

I kinda lean toward the least amount time we spend talking about the MacGuffins, the better. And just accept Exegol, the Sith Throne, the Wayfinders, the Sith Dagger as all ancient Sith relics designed to hide Exegol from anyone who wasn’t worthy/a dark side user.

@Hadrian
I could see having to explain Abeloth would be really exposition heavy for audiences, and Abeloth wouldn’t really mean anything to anyone outside of Legends fans. But I don’t think Palpatine is necessarily obsessed with possessing Rey. I think he would have been more than fine if Kylo had killed her, but since she defeated him and found her way to Exegol, she proved herself a worthy enough vessel. But that could play differently depending on what angle an editor chooses to take.

@Eddie
This is something I’ve thought about a lot, and I think a lot of people, including myself, have felt the ST should have concluded in a way that makes it clear that something new will come along and this cycle is finally broken, but that’s not exactly where I’m at right now. For starters, I don’t know if there is enough content in the film to really paint that picture. And two, I don’t know if a potential future Rey film would contradict that, although I’m not letting myself be overly worried about stepping on the toes of a hypothetical future movie.

I don’t think the solution is that Rey breaks the cycle. I mean maybe she did, by destroying Palpatine, but it’s kind of left ambiguous. No one ever says, “the Sith are finally dead for good”. The solution, at least to me, is that the cycle is an inherent part of the Star Wars universe. Even if the Sith are gone for good, do you really think future Star Wars content won’t have other dark side users, or Jedi that will fall to the dark side?

The answer has to be that Rey, Ben, future Jedi, etc., have to accept that as long as people exist, there will always be good people and bad people. A perfect system that stops bad things from happening will never exist. There will always be selfless people and selfish people. But despite this constant struggle, the good in the universe is worth fighting to protect.

I feel like this Qui-Gon from the canon novel Master and Apprentice embodies this idea well, and maybe it could even be adapted in some form for the Jedi voices scene at the climax of the film.

Qui-Gon: It matters which side we choose. Even if there will never be more light than darkness. Even if there can be no more joy in the galaxy than there is pain. For every action we undertake, for every word we speak, for every life we touch—it matters. I don’t turn toward the light because it means someday I’ll ‘win’ some sort of cosmic game. I turn toward it because it is the light

You could even potentially expand on this issue further with Luke in TLJ. You could give him new dialogue where he says he thought that he had fixed the flaws of the old Jedi Order, but despite that Ben still fell. This fits with Legends too, because Luke did change a lot of the rules with his New Jedi Order, but many of his students still fell to the dark side. You could even explore the idea of Luke and Ben/Kylo coming to the same conclusion, and both wanting to break the cycle in different ways. Luke thought if the Jedi ended, he could snuff out the Sith’s fire and thus break the cycle, then maybe something pure can be reborn from the ashes. Kylo felt he must destroy the Jedi, and then the Sith, in order to start a new order in his image. But in the end they were both wrong. You can’t break the cycle, you can’t stop change, whether it be good and bad. That is a part of life. But that doesn’t mean people must sit back and do nothing about it.

Not super related but it makes me think of this quote.

Anakin: I don’t want things to change.
Shmi: But you can’t stop the change, no more than you can stop the suns from setting.

The dark side will always exist. Evil will always exist. And in times of peace dark forces will eventually rise again. But that doesn’t mean there is no point in fighting against that evil. So in my mind, that is why Rey proclaims herself a Jedi at the end of the film. Calling herself a Jedi is an act of rebellion against this absurd cycle. It’s saying, “I don’t care if I can’t stop the cycle, I’m going to resist it regardless”. She’ll fight for good because it’s worth fighting for, no matter how impermanent peace is. And that not only speaks to the issue of the Sith and the Jedi, but also with the New Republic/First Order.

But regardless, the movie is open ended enough to make the audience wonder if the cycle is broken, or has changed the state of the galaxy for good. Maybe it has, but whether or not evil will rise again doesn’t matter, because Rey and our heroes have accepted the fact that they will face whatever threats may rise, because it’s the right thing to do.

Does any of that make sense?

Post
#1574485
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Yes, I think most of the changes would be the dialogue in those scenes. At the very least the final half of the hangar scene, when he asks her to join her. It isn’t to join him and rule the galaxy, but to come with him and run away. And if you listen to his dialogue on the Death Star in kind of flows into that idea. He wants to run away because he thinks he’s too far gone, and he’s trying to convince Rey is too.

And I think their Death Star duel would be more motivated by Rey wanting to fight Kylo rather than Kylo wanting to fight her. I kind of imagine a version of the story that leans more into Rey slowly being corrupted by the dark side (through the visions, the dagger, etc.) over the course of the movie.

Kylo’s motivations could be like this:
Plan A - get Rey to run away with him
Plan B - if Rey refuses, kill her so he can claim the Sith throne/fleet.

At this point he may be accepting his fate, but sees Rey as his only escape. And if you’re going with a Rey Nobody edit, perhaps this is because he sees that Rey was never part of Palpatine’s plan. A variable he didn’t account for, couldn’t see.

I also always liked the idea of cutting Kylo’s line, “The only way you’re getting to Exegol is with me”, and just have him destroy the Wayfinder because it makes you wonder why he does it. To protect his new fleet or to maybe protect Rey?

And it could be interesting if, through the visions, Rey and Kylo were more directly pitted against each other. Like Kylo could tell Rey, “either you will take the throne or I will, but one of us will kill the other”. And Kylo is leaning into Rey inevitably giving into her darkness, into power, to get what she wants/save who she loves. It’s inevitable like Palpatine returning was inevitable. Power corrupts. Join the Sith and save your new family vs Be a Jedi and sacrifice your life or theirs.

Again, I think you could spin it several ways depending your version of Rey’s origin. If it was Rey Nobody, then Kylo would basically be like, “Palpatine is the conclusion of a plan a thousand years in the making. My family was a product of the Force itself and were still corrupted by him. You’re no one, how do you think you can resist him?” In my mind the dark side/Palpatine/the Throne is very much like a Sauron/the Ring situation. This powerful corrupting force. Like a black hole that drags down any good intentions. But it being representative of our negative qualities like greed and selfishness that we must always live with and struggle against. And Rey being representative of how anybody can be consumed by those things. None of us our immune.

(Speaking of black holes, I think it would be interesting to depict Exegol as a planet orbiting a black hole to make it more visually distinct and to add something to the idea of why Exegol is such a powerful nexus of the dark side.)

Ever since your idea about the Sith Throne, I like the idea of a big theme to carry through this movie is Selflessness vs Selfishness, and I think this would play into that well. Kylo wanting to just get away from it all also kind of makes me think of how Han is in ANH, only to show up and save the day in the end.

Also, sort of unrelated, but if you didn’t want to use the “dyad” term you could use a “vergence in the Force” as a more generic term for some special for thing. When Palpatine says “dyad” his mouth is out of Focus so it could be modified without it being super noticeable.

Post
#1574476
Topic
<em><strong>ANDOR</strong></em> - Disney+ Series - A General Discussion Thread
Time

NFBisms said:

Speculation because it’s fun:

When Luthen’s bolsheviks are inevitably split from Mon and Bail’s mensheviks, I think Mon will do so in part by leveraging religion as the basis of the Alliance.

We know that the younger generation of Chandrilans (esp on Coruscant) are more conservative than Vel and Mon’s generation, and the Empire is starting to stamp out local customs in the wake of Aldhani. Leida’s mystic tradwife fixation - as negatively as that is portrayed - is still a rebellion in this context (wouldn’t be exempt from PORD), and I think Mon will begin to take advantage of that. The Force and other fundamental mysticism could become a political tool for a religious [or more broadly, cultural] revolution against a coldly secular Empire; rebellion gaining favor and involvement from younger generations like the Chandrilan youth, even students (similar to Nemik) opposed to Imperial seculonationalist hegemony - sorta like the Iranian revolution.

“May The Force Be With You” becomes a common rebel refrain. A wider populace is definitely onboard by Rogue One, not just the convicts, criminals, or tragically displaced that we [mostly] started with in Andor.

Importantly, Mon Mothma’s vibes between BBY 5 and BBY 0+ are very different. If the old ways of Chandrila are the deal with the devil she makes in season 1, I think she will continue to make that deal as a political face of this rebellion. The frumpy modesty of her ROTJ look might now read as martyrdom in old Chandrila’s tradcatch ideology; she’s renouncing the materialism of an Imperial Senator, re-committed to the Old Ways.

My theory is that this will be a big source of the sectarian rebel tensions in the lead-up to the Alliance. Like I alluded to above, Luthen is basically a bolshevik accelerationist. Revolution on his terms is dirty, brutal, and spearheaded by a professional vanguard of gangsters and spies. Mon’s canonical call for Open Rebellion is the inevitable clash with that clandestine exclusivity, but I think what’s added to it with the development of a culture and religion rally, is that for once there might be a tangible, coherent ideology to the so-called “Alliance to Restore The Republic”, one that addresses what exactly makes The Empire more evil than the Old Republic.

It’s always been a fandom talking point that Palpatine’s Clone War Republic was already The Empire, but this route would clearly define “A Republic” as an intergalacticist aspiration, not just a misguided return to what failed before. The Force unifier as culture commonality, not just faith in Jedi or magical will. Empire dilutes and destroys heritage and identity, that’ll be the populist throughline of the rebellion, pre Death Star.

Andor’s already made a really solid examination of imperialistic genocide in real terms (displacement, culture loss / limit) and not just overt violence with everything that happens on Aldhani and Ferrix. My hope for season 2 is that those threads are picked up in a real way further, the pieces are all there.

Surprised no one responded to this. Great write-up! The way Mon’s wardrobe “downgrades” by the OT is something I had thought about and this is an interesting way to explain it in-universe. Also, like you said, “May the Force be with you” being a rallying call for the rebellion with a capital R.

I almost don’t want to think about it too much in case this doesn’t come to fruition! Love hearing your thoughts on this.

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#1574470
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Was reading some of the recent threads and had a thought that I wanted to throw out there. Try to erase preconceived ideas that you might have and really try to consider some of my reasoning. Even if that reasoning takes you to a different conclusion I’d love to hear it.

I feel like a theme that edits of the ST can emphasize is this idea of the “Star Wars” cycle. That the forces of good and evil, the dark and the light, perpetually rise and fall. Edits like Nev’s Starlight do a great job at turning TFA’s weaknesses into strengths by making the movie’s repetition of ANH feel more purposeful. Obviously fans watch it and think, “wow, this is all happening AGAIN?”, but I think the movies can be strengthened if it feels like that’s an intentional point rather than a consequence of not having any better ideas.

With Kylo, for example, I think it would be interesting if in TFA, Kylo’s motivations are illustrated either through a vision from Vader’s mask, or through the voice of Vader’s “ghost”, telling him if the Jedi are not destroyed, there will be a “civil war without end”. So Kylo believes he could bring peace to the galaxy by ending the endless conflict between the Jedi and the Sith.

In TLJ, this is already expanded upon by Kylo without necessarily having to add anything (but I think it could be expanded on more by Luke but that’s for another post). Clearly Snoke sees Kylo as the heir to Vader, the continuation of the Sith, but we discover Kylo has other plans. After he kills Snoke, he makes his motivations clear to Rey in that he wants to end both the Jedi AND the Sith in order to bring a new order to the galaxy. This is presumably in hopes of stopping the endless Force war that has plagued the universe. Maybe Kylo is just tired of being tied to that destiny/legacy and wants to start over. After Rey rejects him, it is unclear if his plans have changed. On Crait, it still seems his goals are to end the Jedi.

With TROS, I have been thinking about Kylo’s motivations more in regards to this idea. Both the theatrical movie and many edits play it so Kylo is going through the motions of being allied with Palpatine, but clearly has goals of his own. In some ways this feels like a repeat of TLJ, with Kylo offering Rey basically the same thing he did in the last movie. Why are we to believe Rey would accept it now? It also isn’t clear how Kylo’s vision of galactic dominance is different from Palpatine’s. Really, they are just two slightly different versions of the same flavor without any additional context. Kylo walks like a Sith and talks like a Sith. Again, maybe that’s the point, but Rey nor anyone else addresses this really.

It made me wonder, what genuinely would be Kylo’s reaction to discovering that his whole life has been manipulated by Palpatine? The guiding voice of his grandfather, his mentorship from Snoke and Kylo’s apparent victory over him, were all just a part of Palpatine’s plan. We never really see Kylo reflect on this revelation. In reality, you would think he would be hit even harder by this discovery than Rey would be by her own revelation. Palpatine’s lies has made Kylo do terrible things, kill people he loved. You could argue Kylo is just in denial, or just trying to be stoic in the face of the truth. Maybe he’s desperately holding on to what semblance of control he has left, but this isn’t really explored much.

I also considered what this reveal of Palpatine means for the audience? Obviously, a lot of people were like “what? Really?” It also made people question what the point of Anakin being the chosen one was. Did he not bring balance to the Force? If he gets killed again would it even matter since he came back before?

With that in mind, I wonder how it would look if Kylo embodied those questions the audience would naturally have. I think the film tried to have their cake and eat it too by having both Palpatine back as a big bad, but also try to still give Kylo agency. But it feels muddled. What if they just leaned into it and had Kylo react the opposite way? When Kylo learns the truth, what if Kylo just loses all hope in his goals and submits to fate? He’s trapped and his destiny is to be Palpatine’s successor. It’s what he has been groomed for his whole life. He can accept or die. Accept, or all he did was for nothing. Sunk cost fallacy.

In a way, fans became pessimistic/nihilistic about Star Wars and the future of the franchise with the ST, some after TLJ but definitely most after TROS. I feel like a part of that had to do with Palpatine’s return, among other things, so it could be interesting if Kylo reached his lowest point in this episode, becoming totally nihilistic in a similar way after discovering that his whole life and purpose was basically a lie, and that nothing he really does matters because evil can’t be destroyed.

I like the idea that after seeing how Kylo chose Rey over Snoke, Palpatine would try to get Kylo to join him in a different way by saying that he can turn Rey if he brings her to Exegol, but I dunno if that would present problems or not. Otherwise, he could tell Kylo that she isn’t just his enemy, but his competitor, and that if she reaches Exegol she will turn. But, only one of them can rule. And if she makes it, she’ll kill Kylo.

One downside of Kylo “sort of” serving Palpatine is that this makes Kylo similar to Vader in Return of the Jedi, but again, maybe that is the point. Arguably that similarity already exists in the film as-is. And he could still be made different in other ways. Perhaps in the hangar scene, he could tell Rey that only one of them can rule, and to save her friends, she will kill him and take the throne. One of them will have to kill the other (or maybe they’ll both inevitably join Palpatine if you go the other route) But when Kylo offers her to join him, he could be actually say something like, “Palpatine cannot be stopped. If we kill him, he may just return again. But we could run away, together, and be free from all of this.”
I feel like that would be a surprising thing for Kylo to say, but it makes sense. Kylo has discovered his whole life has been orchestrated. He has been a slave to Palpatine’s plans, like his grandfather. But he sees a way out with Rey. At this point you could understand that all he might want is freedom. “I want to be free of this pain”. He wants to be free from these machinations, fate, destiny, ideas that have haunted him and his family for generations.
It also parallels Padmé and Leia. In Ep3, Padmé wanted Anakin to run away with her when she confronted him on Mustafar. In Ep6, when Luke reveals to Leia their family connection, Leia urges Luke to run far away and leave so he doesn’t have to confront Vader.

So basically, Kylo’s motivations go like this across the trilogy:
-> Destroy the Jedi to break the Jedi-Sith Cycle
-> Destroy the Jedi AND the Sith to break the Jedi-Sith Cycle and bring a new order to the galaxy
-> Once he realizes his motivations have just been lies, he rightly says, “Fuck this shit I’m out.” (Ironically, introducing Palpatine as the man behind the curtain of Kylo’s past made Kylo lose a bit of his agency. If Kylo’s new plan was just to totally escape and get away from Palpatine, it would kind of give Kylo some of that agency back in a way that isn’t just repeating what he did with Snoke.)
-> After his duel with Rey, potentially considering death when looking out over the roaring waves below the Death Star wreckage?
-> After Leia saves him, he realizes that his mother was right, and freedom for everyone is worth fighting for no matter how impermanent it may be.

Speaking of Leia, I also like how this would highlight what Leia represents. To me, Leia represents hope (like Luke). At this point in the story, Kylo would be totally hopeless, believing that Palpatine cannot be outsmarted or defeated. The ultimate Sith. The embodiment of evil. But when Leia sacrifices herself and gives a part of her life to Ben (if you go with Nev’s/SherlockPotter’s idea for the scene) that hope shifts to him. I think this idea would fit well in an edit that features Kylo being haunted by memories of his father’s words from TFA, and maybe “hearing” him being the thing that stops Kylo from killing Rey.

I also think that if his motivation shifts to wanting to run away with Rey, it sort of would make his redemption feel more like a natural progression. Because at that point, he has realized everything he thought was for the greater good was actually wrong. He was actually wrong. He has accepted that his whole identity, his entire purpose and the sacrifices he made were all a lie. Which feels like it should’ve been the obvious thing for Kylo to conclude and ponder on after realizing Palpatine was behind it all. And then his whole conflict with Rey is more about Kylo trying to force Rey to realize her inner darkness and accept that if she confronts Palpatine, she would inevitably fall too. Palpatine used him, and he’ll use her too. If Kylo thinks he can’t even overcome Palpatine, then what chance does Rey have? And I think this all would speak to what he says to Rey on the Death Star, at this point he is just trying to convince Rey that she can’t go back. They’re too messed up to go back.

And I think, big picture-wise, but I think the angle that the story of the ST could be more clearly focused on is about how evil persists, but despite that fact good people persist too, and the good in this world is worth fighting for. So the question of whether or not Palpatine will return again, or if balance is temporary or permanently restored, doesn’t matter and fine left as an ambiguity because the point is that good people will always rise to face evil.

And I think this angle for Kylo’s story could work for any version of the Rey backstory you might want to go with.

Post
#1571943
Topic
The Starlight Project Addendum: The Rise of Skywalker (Freeform Brainstorming Session)
Time

I like this draft of the dialogue. Provides some ambiguity to keep the audience guessing, but hits the same beats.

In some of my versions of the first Rey and Kylo Force bond scene that I’ve written, I have Kylo say this.

Kylo: Palpatine wants you dead.

Rey: Serving another master?

Kylo: He lies. I have other plans.

Something like that could potentially benefit this type of plot. Kind of hammering in Palpatine as a deceiver, one who lies to manipulate.

Post
#1571927
Topic
The Starlight Project Addendum: The Rise of Skywalker (Freeform Brainstorming Session)
Time

I think removing Rey’s parents actually being good is more than worth cutting the whatever shots/lines necessary to do so. I just think it totally disrespects the audience to go back on that story decision. Guess that could be an endless subjective argument though. But I think you could keep more than one would initially think if you can get creative.

Well, if you wanted Rey to hate Palpatine there are plenty of reasons besides making her parents good people. If Palpatine intentionally left Rey there, she could hate him for the life he made for her. She could hate him for just making her in the first place. For trying to be the master of her fate. Or, if you kept it simple and just focused on future visions, she could hate him for being a threat to her new family. Or just projecting her fears of herself onto him. He’s what she could become. She fears he is right. Sure, if you want to keep it simple you could just make it because he killed her actually good parents. I just don’t think that is the most compelling reason, and felt that was one of the reasons for fan editing this film in the first place.

Also don’t mean to throw off y’all’s flow. Just popping to give some food for thought. I just did like you coming to the angle of Rey as a dark creation, and maybe not blatantly a clone. Could be a clone still though. I still think the clone idea is better than Rey as Palpatine’s granddaughter. But I will say I do think the angle of her parents maybe being bad, having second thoughts and then getting killed for it does make sense.

Post
#1571914
Topic
The Starlight Project Addendum: The Rise of Skywalker (Freeform Brainstorming Session)
Time

I think something that feels like a contradiction or requires an explanation that is narratively bending over backwards for is her good parents leaving her with a scumbag like Unkar Plutt to “protect her”. It doesn’t really make sense. And trying to explain it feels like a complicated fan theory.

I think if you make Anakin and Rey both Palpatine’s creations, then it sort of makes her and Kylo related in a weird way? So the romance aspect would be a little awkward. I don’t think you would have to explain it. I actually an issue with a lot of these write ups is feels like too much exposition and not enough character stuff, imo.

Post
#1571898
Topic
The Starlight Project Addendum: The Rise of Skywalker (Freeform Brainstorming Session)
Time

I actually wrote up a post sort of touching on this idea but I didn’t share because y’all were on a role with the clone stuff, but I share it now since it is sort of on-topic. Some of this will be redundant I’m sure.

Since TROS heavily references Palpatine’s Darth Plagueis story, and how Palpatine continued his work on “cheating death”, I could see the benefit of Rey being the final product of his work to “create life”.

“Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life. He had such a knowledge of the dark side, he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.”

“To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.”

Just to reference, here is the wiki article that discusses the Legends book Darth Plagueis, specifically his experiments to create life:

The Grand Experiment was conceived by the Sith Lord Darth Plagueis’s desire to create a life form by gaining control of the midi-chlorians, the sentient microscopic organisms that enabled certain beings to wield the power of the Force. Not only did the Dark Lord deem the project a failure, his efforts ultimately backfired and caused the midi-chlorians to create Anakin Skywalker, the prophesied Chosen One of Jedi legend who was destined to restore balance to the Force by destroying the Sith.

During the final years of the Galactic Republic, the Sith Lords Darth Plagueis and his apprentice, Darth Sidious, conducted the Grand Experiment on the moon Sojourn in 42 BBY. Utilizing Sith alchemy and the dark side of the Force, Plagueis intended to create the living embodiment of the Force. In order to do so, he tried to influence the midi-chlorians in his attempt to create life. But when his efforts bore no success, and instead wiped out his other experiments, Plagueis deemed the project a failure. Years later, during the Crisis on Naboo in 32 BBY, Plagueis was surprised to discover the existence of Anakin Skywalker, a young Human boy born without a father. Plagueis concluded that not only had the midi-chlorians resisted his will, but they had also retaliated by engineering the conception of the Jedi Order’s long-awaited Chosen One, a Jedi destined to restore balance to the Force by destroying the Sith.

Unlike his master, however, Darth Sidious saw the discovery of Skywalker as an opportunity; the chance to use the Jedi’s own legend to the Sith’s advantage. After he assassinated Plagueis, Sidious—under the guise of his public persona as Supreme Chancellor Palpatine—befriended the young padawan, and intended to slowly corrupt him over the years until Skywalker submitted to the dark side—a goal in which he ultimately succeeded.However, Anakin was eventually redeemed and, turning his back on his Master and the dark side, slew the Emperor before he himself perished.

So if you were going off this version of the lore, if Anakin/the Chosen One was a reaction by the Force itself to Plagueis’ failed experiment, what if Palpatine succeeded at his experiment, and that experiment was Rey? There’s been a lot of fan theories that Anakin was made by Palpatine, even an earlier draft of ROTS said as much, but according to canon he isn’t. So what if Rey was instead?
If you wanted to say the Force reacted to this second experiment, perhaps that’s what the Dyad was.

My problem with a lot of these rewrites is that they’re still overly complicated in my opinion. And I wonder if instead of trying to make a complicated backstory as for why she ends up on Jakku if her parents were good or bad, what if Palpatine intentionally wanted her to be raised on this harsh, violent environment with no family? If she couldn’t survive this harsh environment, she wouldn’t be worthy or strong enough to be a Sith, or his vessel. It would explain why she was left with a crappy guy like Unkar Plutt, which doesn’t make sense in any version of the story where her parents are trying to protect her.

She would sort of be like Darth Bane. Bane lived in a harsh environment and had a terrible father, but that shaped him into who he became. Palpatine was trying to replicate those factors so both nature and nurture would push her toward the Dark Side. And this would give her all the more reason for her to hate Palpatine, which he wants so he can possess her.

This would still give you similar parallels to what Abrams and Terrio tried to do. Anakin was the literal Force messiah, a kind boy, but he was twisted by greed into a terrible person. Rey could be his opposite, the Force Anti-Christ, growing up in a rough environment with terrible parents, but despite all of that she became a kind-hearted person. And maybe the bond between Rey and Kylo Ren formed because they are both connected to the Force in a unique way. Yes, Kylo is the grandson of Anakin, but through him he is still a product of the Force, just like Rey is.

“Why did the Emperor come from me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”

“He didn’t. He learned how to create life, but knew that what didn’t kill it would make it stronger.
You, were made by Palpatine, to take the throne.
My family came from the light, and you, the dark side. But what Palpatine doesn’t know is that we’re a dyad in the Force, Rey. Two that are one. Together, we’ll bring true balance to the Force.”

What I like about something like this is that the implication here is that it is sort of vague enough that the theatrical Rey Palpatine still sort of fits. The main difference being that Palpatine/Ochi leaving her on Jakku was intentional, and her parents were truly nobodies. So all of that bullshit makes more sense. Rey was made by Palpatine, but she isn’t his grandchild in the biological sense (she could be, or even a clone, but it’s left vague) The one question would be if Palpatine picked out Rey’s parents in particular, or Palpatine performed some ritual or whatever but didn’t know where his experiment ended up. I’m leaning towards the former, since Jakku kind of is a great environment to raise a survivor. Seems like Palpatine may have chosen the location. But I also think it is boring if you try to bog the movie down in lingo and exposition.

It’s nice because the audience isn’t left with the question, “Palpatine fucks?!”, but it’s also different than what Luke or Anakin faced. If it is just a question of her having Palpatine’s blood, well it’s not really compelling in a new way because Luke faced the dilemma of blood and overcame it. It’s not really interesting to see Rey answer the same question.

You also don’t have to directly reference the Chosen One prophecy, if you prefer prequel edits that don’t refer to it, but the parallel is still there. Kylo Ren is just explaining it and referring to it in a general way.

Later on Ahch-To, Luke could say, “Because you’re from Palpatine?”

And Luke’s line “some things are stronger than blood” can reference Leia and Rey having a strong bond despite not being blood-related, rather than referring to her being blood-related to Palpatine. But that suggestion can still sort of be there, or relate to being a product of the Dark Side.