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RogueLeader

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11-Jun-2015
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23-Feb-2019
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Post
#1270809
Topic
Proof of Lucas’ revisionism in Rinzler’s making-of book?
Time

Yeah, Rian’s doc was pretty transparent when it came to Rian and Mark’s disagreements. JJ’s doc does feel a lot more censored in that way.

Another thing I would worry about in a fan-made “exposé”, would be the writer’s own bias. Even now, a lot of interviews and information are being used by certain detractors as being evidence of “Disney/Lucasfilm’s SJW agenda”. So I could easily see a hypothetical book being used as way to frame “Disney” Star Wars in the most negative way possible.

Post
#1270803
Topic
Proof of Lucas’ revisionism in Rinzler’s making-of book?
Time

Maybe I am a bit too harsh on the “George” revisionism claim regarding Rinzler, but apparently that modified “midichlorian” quote is around page 398 of the Making of Star Wars book.

Yeah, actually I think what you said is exactly on point. Rinzler mentions in that interview that he had actually finished the manuscript, and that there really wasn’t anything “juicy” in it per se. He said he felt if it was ever released, fans would probably be disappointed. But he thinks the reason it was cancelled was because Lucasfilm didn’t want to bring back up certain things from production, things that the public already knows, like Lucas saying they didn’t use his treatments, Brad Bird being in talks to direct early on, Harrison Ford’s injury (which Rinzler describes as “Harrison almost dying”). Like you said, it might be a long time before we get any official Behind the Scenes book outside of the Art of books, I would say at the earliest 10 years from now, if not longer.

That’s why I think it would be really interesting for a fan-made book were to be made that would compile as much known information regarding the development as possible. Sources like books, interviews, blogs, behind the scenes videos, etc. But something in the vein of Secret History might be the only “making of” book we might get for a very long time.

Post
#1270798
Topic
Proof of Lucas’ revisionism in Rinzler’s making-of book?
Time

I know Lucas’ own revisionism has been discussed ad nauseam here on this site, and it definitely deserves the debate because despite it feeling like most Star Wars fans know Lucas is a little guilty of this, I also believe that Lucas has sort of “won” in some regard to that. It’s hard to explain, but if you were to develop some kind of test that was able to determine how “aware” someone was of Lucas’ revisionism, I believe most fans would score lower than you might think.

And for me, I guess that leads to the question of how it affects the fanbase’s everyday perception of the franchise, overall? I don’t know if this exactly fits, but one think I have noticed is how on a lot of sites it feels like the discussion regarding the prequels has really changed in the past ten years. I am a Prequel kid myself, but I seem to recall a lot of talk about George ruining the franchise, but nowadays you often hear defenses of the Prequels as George’s “vision”, and how it was all planned out by him (fans nowadays seem to have an obsession with the idea “overarching” plans), but if you read The Secret History of Star Wars, it paints a very different picture. Usually George Lucas and his vision become weapons to use against the Sequel Trilogy.

While I am a fan of the new movies, I actually think Disney/Lucasfilm have a closet full of skeletons very similar to George’s. While George is guilty of his own revisionism, we really don’t have the same level of “behind the scenes” looks at the new films like we did under George. It’s that transparency that has partially allowed fans to discover that revisionism in the first place.

But since the Disney acquisition, there have been a lot of questions about what the development process has been like for the new films. What were George’s treatments like that he gave to Kathleen Kennedy? How much was kept/thrown away from those as Episode VII was evolving? To what extent does the new trilogy have an overall plan, and what does that mean exactly?

Some info has been gleamed from interviews, but oftentimes those interviews can appear contradictory. Ironically, one of the best sources of behind the scenes information for the new trilogy that we have gotten so far are from the Art of series of books, since story development has often gone hand-in-hand with the Art Department for Star Wars films. Fortunately, you can find some great posts on sites like Reddit and theforce.net that gather various sources, but even with collected sources, you’ll often see heated debates regarding the sequel trilogy regarding the validity of this information.

I think a major difference is obviously that now that Lucas is gone, you can really look back at his tenure in a historical sense, but the Sequel Trilogy development is still an ongoing thing. Eventually I hope that they will release a book that gives us more information about the making of process. Interestingly enough, J.W. Rinzler was still with Lucasfilm when the acquisition happened up until TFA was released, and was actually documenting it for another eventual book, but it seemed like Lucasfilm wasn’t ready for that, since they halted the development. Rinzler was even going to start a blog on his own called “The Rise and Fall of Star Wars”, but it appeared he may have been asked to not continue that.

On one hand, I sorted of don’t blame Lucasfilm for not wanting to reveal too much of the behind the scenes information before the Sequel Trilogy is complete, to avoid spoiling anything for subsequent films. On the other hand, I will be a little disappointed if we never get anything like that. And even if we did, it kind of makes you wonder how much will be “redacted”, per se. While Rinzler himself seems a little salty about the changing of the guard, we also know we was himself responsible for helping George’s revisionism. Eventually, I would like to see a spiritual sequel to The Secret History of Star Wars that covers the development of the Sequel Trilogy following the Disney acquisition, written by a third party, such as unaffiliated fans.

EDIT: I actually found an interview Star Wars News Net did with Rinzler at the end of January. They ask him a question regarding the TFA book around the 58 min mark. I have that timestamp in this link https://youtu.be/B9p6naiDwzQ?t=3469

Post
#1270726
Topic
Proof of Lucas’ revisionism in Rinzler’s making-of book?
Time

Rinzler himself makes a note on that quote in this article about midichlorians.

[Please note: While we were preparing the text for The Making of Star Wars, Lucas added a note to this passage about midi-chlorians, bringing his original words in line with his later thoughts and the events of the prequel trilogy.]

https://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians

So, the original quote was apparently from an archive recording of an interview he had with Carol Titelman in 1977, who was the author of the first Art of Star Wars book, but she also was apparently a member of his staff who was asking him a series of questions that could be used to guide future Star Wars novel/EU material writers.

The quote, as it is in Rinzler’s The Making of Star Wars goes:

”It is said certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different; they have more midi-chlorians in their cells.”

But, based off what Rinzler said in that article, it probably was:

”It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different.”

This info is taken from this Q&A site.
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/7510/when-did-george-lucas-make-up-the-stuff-about-the-sith-and-midichlorians/7527#7527

Post
#1270579
Topic
General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread
Time

SilverWook said:

There was also a glimpse of a version of the Mace/Palpatine duel where Anakin is present from the beginning.

Oh yeah, I remember reading about this. This was a change I agree with, though. I think it works a lot better with Anakin coming in at the last moment.

DominicCobb said:

The fact that the scene was, in fact, filmed. I think it’s maybe one of the top SW cut scenes that should have been in the movie (well, depending on how it looks when played out).

Agreed. Honestly I’m sort of surprised they didn’t even put it on the DVD. It’s seems like it would’ve been a sweet little interaction between Natalie and Ewan, and honestly we don’t get many scenes with the two of them. Maybe the fact that Obi-Wan mentions that he knows even that early on in the film about their relationship would’ve hurt the tension Anakin felt about keeping it a secret from the Jedi. Not sure. Still weird they would choose not to put it on the DVD.

Honestly if they release a Skywalker Saga Collection after IX is released, a great selling point would be if they added some never-before-seen material for all the films, because we know more material exists.

Post
#1270570
Topic
General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread
Time

Hey, that’s a bargain!

I bet some, if not all, of the webisodes can be found on YouTube, too. It’s just a matter of watching through them all. I also believe you can spot a few other deleted moments in BTS footage as well. I found a few gifs of Obi-Wan arriving to Padme’s apartment after the purge starts, 3PO mentions the Jedi Rebellion. The latter half of that scene is still in the film, when Obi-Wan tries to get Padme to tell her where Anakin is.

Post
#1270565
Topic
General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread
Time

I was initially curious about the same thing, but it was.

You can find photos online from the scene, but apparently there is some behind-camera video of the scene from some BTS material. Not sure which video these clips come from though. http://rubbish78.tumblr.com/post/125555608140/deleted-scene-between-padme-amidala-and-obi-wan

Post
#1270557
Topic
General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread
Time

Yeah, he kind of makes you realize that there are a quite a few deleted scenes for all the movies that we still haven’t seen, or even know about.

One scene I recently learned about was one between Padme and Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith. They talk briefly about Anakin and Obi reveals that he knows they have feelings for each other, but promises to keep their secret.

You can actually read the script for that scene (and several other scenes) here: http://starwars.rossiters.com/rots_uf91-100.html

There’s also the scene in AOTC (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, haha) where Padme puts 3PO’s rusty-looking plating on him. Speaking of which, that same blog post that mentioned the Episode 3 Padme scene shot during Episode 2 mentions that Padme was digitally inserted into the Lars dinner table scene, where they talk about what happened to Anakin’s mother. He mentions he doesn’t know why she had to be digitally inserted, since she was there for filming. But that is something I never even noticed before.

EDIT: Another thing that comes to mind is seeing Dooku using two sabers against Yoda during their duel in AOTC in some BTS footage!

Post
#1270508
Topic
Episode IX - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I don’t know if I should put my trust in JJ, but especially after the ANH similarities being a major criticism of TFA, I like to think that JJ wants to have another go at the franchise in order to do something more original.

Regardless of what anybody thinks about why reused a lot of imagery from the OT and the purpose it served, it will be nice to get more new ideas into the franchise. I"m fairly optimistic about that regarding the future of the movies and shows.
If I just had to guess, I have a feeling that The Mandalorian will be the first big thing that will start bringing both sides of the divisive fan base back together.

Post
#1270447
Topic
General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread
Time

I have never seen those pictures before, either! Thanks for sharing.

So they did film the ending for the eventual “Episode III” during AOTC’s production, but they didn’t use it and just reshot it in-studio during ROTS’ production? Is that correct?

SilverWook said:

Interesting find! Padme never returns to Naboo alive in Episode III, so what could this scene be? Was Padme’s death originally going to be a hoax to help protect Luke and Leia? Maybe someone should ask Natalie Portman about it.

See, this is what I am wondering, too. The only other known scene shot for Episode III during AOTC’s production was meant to be the ending for ROTS, which apparently Lucas’ had in his mind for a while. So, is it possible that this is something similar? Was she originally going to survive and go into hiding?

I’m probably going to try and reach out to the twitter user who posted that picture and see if he knows the source of that image. I might also go back and look at The Secret History of Star Wars and see if there is ever any mention of Padme’s fate changing during the writing process, although I do not recall anything like that at the moment. Maybe some insight could be gleamed from the Rinzler books, which I don’t have at the moment.

If it is what I think it is, it is possible Lucas originally planned to have Padme survive for a few more years offscreen (which ROTJ implies), but while writing ROTS or just further developing it, he realized that having Padme die would be a stronger ending, despite the continuity error.

Then again, I kind of want more proof that this is what he says it is, first, and that it is not just some other deleted scene for AOTC.

Post
#1270441
Topic
General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread
Time

While I was doing a bit of research for something, I stumbled upon this website that has a long list of Padme-related trivia.

One interesting thing that’s included is this little tidbit of information…

Natalie Portman allegedly filmed a scene for Episode III during Episode II photography at Lake Como, but it was never used. This behind-the-scenes image is the only evidence:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dl0nn8fV4AAQkoT.jpg

I have never heard about this before. From what I recall, parts of the final scene of Revenge of the Sith, with Owen and Beru, were also filmed during Episode II’s production with intent of later use for Episode III, so that wouldn’t be completely unheard of. I don’t have a source to back that up, just what I’ve heard in the past.

Does anyone have anymore information about this “unused” scene?

Post
#1270299
Topic
General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread
Time

I really like those kind of insights in the Rinzler books. Harrison always came off as being pretty carefree when it came to a lot of stuff, but he clearly paid attention to little details like that.

That’s one of my favorite things Ady fixed for ESB:R. The change is really seamless too, with the smoke rolling in front of it in the foreground and everything.

Post
#1270238
Topic
The Force Awakens - The Starlight Project
Time

That is pretty solid, Nev!

I know it isn’t meant to be perfect, but I did notice a few little audio burps here and there. I’ve always found this scene hard to cut. Ironically, I think the “dark chanting” music makes cuts more noticeable.

I like how you kind of see that conversation as being able to be interpreted in multiple ways. I think “He means nothing to me” on its own. Really, it helps make it feel like we’re listening in on a conversation and slowly learning things through context, rather than the original line about Han Solo almost being fourth wall breaking. Like, why did he have to word it that way, you know?

It makes me think of Once Upon a Time in the West. When Harmonica shows up at the train station and stands off against the henchmen, all he asks is, “And Frank?”
At that point, we don’t know who Frank is, but not knowing makes it more interesting by not spelling it out and letting the audience discover its significance.

Post
#1270108
Topic
Han - Solo Movie ** Spoilers **
Time

Well, Solo’s budget was estimated to be around $275-300 million, so it didn’t even make that back with the domestic box office alone.
According to here, its worldwide box office was $390 million, combined with its project home release sales, you get a total of around $445 million.

Even Rogue One broke 1 billion at the box office alone. So Solo did not really perform well, not even close to the other anthology film.

Its performance definitely requires Disney/Lucasfilm to consider a few things. Did Solo underperform based on scheduling alone? Would it have gotten closer to that $1 billion if they had just pushed it to December, or was the story just not that much of a draw? If it was the latter, they will probably be more careful about which films they want to make theatrically. Apparently they were working on a “Tales from Mos Eisley” kind of film, but if Han Solo wasn’t enough of a draw, they need to figure out what attracts audience to a Star Wars project.

That’s why I personally think the success or failure of the Mandalorian is going to be crucial to Lucasfilm’s future. I think the tech Jon Favreau is using is pioneering. It could lower the cost of production for these visual effects heavy projects, paving the way for future Star Wars projects.

I’ve heard it described this way, but we could think of this coming winter season as the end of Phase 1. Once Episode IX is released, Star Wars will be moving on to brand new stories, and the Mandalorian will be the first of many such stories that have fewer ties to the Original Trilogy, which I think is necessary for the franchise’s growth.

I think fans want to see new stories. Saying that, despite Solo’s weak box office performance, it seems critically it has done fairly well, so those characters could still have a future on Disney+ as a series, which I would be interested in. Maybe it would do better there.

Post
#1270060
Topic
Han - Solo Movie ** Spoilers **
Time

Yeah, while obviously a big portion of it did have to do with how they marketed it, it goes to show just how big of a fault it was to not it back. Even if there hadn’t been reshoots, it still would have flopped because that was always the intended release schedule. And from what I understand, they didn’t hold back on marketing because of the reshoots, but because they didn’t want it to overlap with The Last Jedi home video release advertising.

Now that we’ve talked about it, it makes me want to make a fan trailer just to try to illustrate what I mean by an unclear thesis statement for the film’s marketing. Maybe it can be the trailer for an eventual fan edit I might do, too.

Post
#1270057
Topic
The Last Jedi: Rekindled (RELEASED!)
Time

Regarding BB-8 repairing Poe’s X-Wing, I agree that having dozens of little sauters or whatever sticking out is a bit too goofy, but if you just have him come down and stop just one, it sorta just feels like, “Oh. That’s it?”

I feel like if you could somehow keep the first gag with the two or three sparks, but somehow cut the second scene to where you don’t see the multiple mandibles, we just see the arm retracting and then him smashing his head into the motherboard to temporarily reestablish the connection. Sure, it is a little silly, but don’t you think you gotta keep some of BB-8’s levity? It’s partially what makes him endearing.

I mean in TFA, the few times I saw it in theaters, at almost every screening, when BB-8’s head goes back and forth between Rey and Finn, and then when he gives the little lighter thumbs up, I could literally feel the audience collectively fall in love with that little droid.

Just my opinion, though. My SO isn’t really a Star Wars person, but she loves BB-8, so I guess for me I wouldn’t want to cut out too much of him because I see how other people might like those funnier moments that we find too funny.

If you’ll allow me to go off topic for a second, it kind of reminds me of something I learned early on when I started fan editing. One of the first things I did was a personal edit of Return of the Jedi. After I “finished” it, I showed it to my uncle and my younger cousins. During the Sarlaac battle, we got to the part where Han sends Boba flying, and I had cut Han saying, “Boba Fett? Boba Fett?? Where?!”

They immediately noticed that cut, because that line became sort of a inside joke for them. Anytime one of them would mention Boba in conversation, one of them would quickly respond with “Boba Fett? Boba Fett? Where?!” and just laugh and laugh.

It was at that point that I realized that even if you make what you think are sensible cuts, you also might be losing something from the film that is a little harder to explain. Maybe it’s charm. Or maybe it what Lawrence Kasdan once said in an interview about Star Wars: that it’s goofy, but goofy in the best way.

EDIT: Regarding Holdo stuff, I did make a [post] the other day with some ideas on that whole subplot. Maybe that could sparks some thoughts on it.