Rogue Leader

doubleofive said:

 

thejediknighthusezni said:

- Please consider my posts to be an open invite for honest evaluation and opinion about any proposed changes to ESB that I make :-)

  If Leia's hanger briefing is cut out, and the General's "two at a time" is cut off before Leia speaks, or altogether cut, than the -21 year old in the snowbunny suit is top military expert and and commander- would be fixed. It would create other problems. The ion cannon and the transport ships would need set-ups. If a voice over the PA announces a cannon test, then a cut to the cannon traversing, that might be a set-up. If a voice announces the ships landed, then a cut to the ships, that might be a set-up. Audience sees transports and fighters, they'll know what the fighters do

If I'm reading this right, people are seriously suggesting that we cut out scenes of Leia leading the Rebels because she's too young.

Let's break down what she did when she was 18:
- Lied to the Emperor's right-hand man.
- Continued to lie as she was being "mind probed".
- Was snarky to a Grand Moff.
- Lied to a Grand Moff as he had a gun pointed at her home planet.
- As soon as she was rescued, she took command of her own rescue operation.
- Managed to complete her mission regardless.

If anything, she deserves to be in command. It doesn't matter her age.

As for cutting out her sarcastic remarks to Han, I can't believe it. If we cut her leadership scenes and made her sarcasm more worried then we would end up with a tag-along character and would forget why Han would need to rescue her except for her title and Leia being self-defensive around Han would become her being whiny around Han and we'd all wonder why he wanted her so badly to begin with!

I'm not against suggestions, but this is to unbelievable for me to get behind, especially for this edit that is more of a preservation anyway.

 

Good points OO5 (Leia is 19yo in ANH though. ^^). I don't think Leia's role as a leader should be cut what so ever. However, the "2 fighters against a Star Destroyer" line has always sounded really flat. That's also suppose to be Hobbie (Luke's wingman during the Battle of Hoth) saying that who I assume had lines with Luke during the battle but were probably cut because they sounded just as flat. Something could be technically done about that, voice over or something.

Also taking age into consideration... fierfekking GL has a 14 year-old as a Queen of an entire planet. Luke flew the Death Star run at 19yo and is the Commander of Rogue Squadron at 21yo (although it seems their retconning the timeline now so this will have a degree of error). For all we know being a royal of Alderaan means you are trained in military tactics and doctrine along with politics. Makes sense.

yoda1138 said:

Same with the shields on the AT-ATs, I agree with your view. Did you check out my second edit.....

 

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k0L4K5CaJk

 

It doesn't really show shields on this one, more internal damage caused by the neck breaking. The originating explosion is when the head hits the ground and bends the neck back. Setting off a mini chain reaction inside the beast.

That break/small sparking in the neck is good. Could drive home the fact that the armor was too strong for blasters but they exploited a weakened part of the armor.

adywan said:

Lord Grievous said:

Ady, how's filming and model-making going?

Things have stopped at the moment. I've got to take it pretty easy so i'm not doing anything related to the edit for a good few weeks at least. Once i've been back to the doctors for more tests i will know more on when i can get back to things.

 

A well deserved break. Rogues will be standing by. =D

Handzzz said:

Rogue Leader said:

Handzzz said:

Rogue Leader said:

Handzzz said:

Rogue Leader said:

There's changes for the sake of improvement and then there are changes for nothing more than flash. You may not care about the EU and that's fine but there are many holes we can all poke in this battle and not everything needs to be explained... Like Ady said, maybe when the walker tripped the neck portion breached or cracked and the rebel pilots aimed for that weakness. Simple as that... 

In the radio drama is there anything Luke says that indicates the neck becoming a weakness after the walker drops? If so then all that's needed is to add the audio, or some other pilot saying something like "Target the neck breach" the cutting to Wedge "whoaaaa!!!!! That got him!"

That's not so wierd idea, in WW2 there were doctrines to the soliders, how to take down the Tiger down effectively. Guess the director's inspired the ww2 tank battles.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_tigervulnerability/ttt_tiger_vulnerability.jpg

Ah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law has been used! This conversation has gone too far. Error 404!

Whaaat? I didn't mention Hitler, what are you talking about? I wanted to point out that sci-fi inspires real historical events, or meanings. Are you speaking in Newspeak?It's history, bro. Tiger tank not equal to hitler. Anyway its a russan military article, so I don't get it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

Godwin's lay just states that the longer a conversation goes the more likely some kind of WWII comparison will be made and Tiger tanks were used by the Germans in WW2. Or maybe I just made that part up... ah well. Either way, I just wanted to bring up Godwin's law cos I think it's funny. ^^

Am I committed a thoughtcrime? lol The Tiger is a war machine, not ww2, or nazis. Anyway I sent a PM.

The tiger tank was a machine of war used in WWII by the Nazis... It was also used as a comparison for a topic that was getting rather lengthy and thus Godwin's Law just stats the longer a conversation goes concerning a controversial topic the more likely it is that a comparison to something from Nazi Germany comes up. I just think it's funny when it does happen, in what ever form it appears, albeilt distant. ^^ 

xhonzi said:

You and Ady seem to agree that you don't think there is an onscreen contradiction, but you don't need to poo-poo the people that do.

You may not care about the EU and that's fine but there are many holes we can all poke in this battle and not everything needs to be explained...

This is true.  It really is stupid to devise a walking tank that only shoots forward.  It's even more stupid to attack that tank from the front.  HigHurtenflurst is right, I guess it's best to just not overthink it.

Mmm... I just disagreed that the speeders carry bombs and they don't. This "poo poo" you mention, lol... So rigging a torpedo launcher on to the snowspeeder wouldn't confuse more people than would help? Cos if they had something of that type of ordinance on the snowspeeders, why not just use that from the start of the battle? Thus leading to me thinking it's adding something for the sake of adding something... If you're gonna make the suggestions then prepare to have flaws poked in the reasoning. I expect no less from my own suggestions to be scrutinized, aka this "poo poo". =D

Speaking of which: look at the footage from ESB there are two Rebel soldiers running toward the walker. Why? Other than fodder for AT-AT gunners what do the Rebel trench soliders do? Thus a shot from behind of a couple of Rebel solider firing a concussion missle or something similar at the downed walker while the snowspeeder makes it's attack run makes it more devastating and not just "too strong from blasters".

However, Ady's reasoning was even simpler: when the walker falls the neck gets breached and they aimed for that. I suppose when the walker hits maybe the neck could show a lil more damage. A spark or crack... That would be a simple add relatively...

Yeah... a tank with only a forward arc. Wonder if there could be a correction for this.

Handzzz said:

Rogue Leader said:

Handzzz said:

Rogue Leader said:

There's changes for the sake of improvement and then there are changes for nothing more than flash. You may not care about the EU and that's fine but there are many holes we can all poke in this battle and not everything needs to be explained... Like Ady said, maybe when the walker tripped the neck portion breached or cracked and the rebel pilots aimed for that weakness. Simple as that... 

In the radio drama is there anything Luke says that indicates the neck becoming a weakness after the walker drops? If so then all that's needed is to add the audio, or some other pilot saying something like "Target the neck breach" the cutting to Wedge "whoaaaa!!!!! That got him!"

That's not so wierd idea, in WW2 there were doctrines to the soliders, how to take down the Tiger down effectively. Guess the director's inspired the ww2 tank battles.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_tigervulnerability/ttt_tiger_vulnerability.jpg

Ah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law has been used! This conversation has gone too far. Error 404!

Whaaat? I didn't mention Hitler, what are you talking about? I wanted to point out that sci-fi inspires real historical events, or meanings. Are you speaking in Newspeak?It's history, bro. Tiger tank not equal to hitler. Anyway its a russan military article, so I don't get it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

Godwin's lay just states that the longer a conversation goes the more likely some kind of WWII comparison will be made and Tiger tanks were used by the Germans in WW2. Or maybe I just made that part up... ah well. Either way, I just wanted to bring up Godwin's law cos I think it's funny. ^^

Handzzz said:

Rogue Leader said:

There's changes for the sake of improvement and then there are changes for nothing more than flash. You may not care about the EU and that's fine but there are many holes we can all poke in this battle and not everything needs to be explained... Like Ady said, maybe when the walker tripped the neck portion breached or cracked and the rebel pilots aimed for that weakness. Simple as that... 

In the radio drama is there anything Luke says that indicates the neck becoming a weakness after the walker drops? If so then all that's needed is to add the audio, or some other pilot saying something like "Target the neck breach" the cutting to Wedge "whoaaaa!!!!! That got him!"

That's not so wierd idea, in WW2 there were doctrines to the soliders, how to take down the Tiger down effectively. Guess the director's inspired the ww2 tank battles.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_tigervulnerability/ttt_tiger_vulnerability.jpg

Ah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law has been used! This conversation has gone too far. Error 404!

adywan said:

no, there will be no EU vehicles in this edit. Like i have said before the EU doesn't exist to me. There was talk about adding more AT-ST's to the battle but this isn't going to happen. I have yet to see any CG home brew elements that can actually look realistic enough to match the studio AT-AT models on film(Which the AT-ST's would have to be CG unless studio scale stop-motion models were to be built and filmed, which is never going to happen). I've taken out the AT-ST's from the battle and i'm going to be leaving their first appearance for ROTJ

I was sad about the AT-ST. =( Although it did seem that lone AT-ST was out of place there... but the way the battle does play out is better thus far.

xhonzi said:

Rogue Leader said:

Incom T-47 speeders are not equiped with bombs. Thus I suggested the Rebel ground troops running towards the crash with a portable concussion missle launcher with a combined attacked from the snowspeeders.

Yeah, I'm afraid I don't really care what the minutia of the EU has to say about everything.  The fact is that the movie, as filmed, shows snowspeeders using blasters to blow up armor that's "too strong for blasters."  So, yes, you could shoot a completely new scene with ground troops running toward the thing with missile launchers (which probably are also new to the contintuity of the scene) or you could add a bomb or two to the snowspeeders and mostly keep the scene as is.  As you said, the rebels modified the snowspeeders for use on Hoth... who's to say that they didn't add some heavier ordinance to them while they were at it.  If Luke can carry an AT-AT destroying grenade on his belt, surely the light speeders can carry a couple bombs/missiles/grenades capable of the same feat.

Apparently Ady doesn't plan to do anything with the scene, but wouldn't a simple change to the ordinance fired by the snowspeeders be a lot more in line with the subtle changes than filming an entirely new scene?

If that's the case why not have some X-wings diverted from escort duty of the medium transports to slag the walkers with a couple of proton torps. They have launchers and carry a pay load of 6 total... Or why not just reorient the angle of the KDY 150-v planet defender class ion canon  to fire at the AT-ATs, if it can take a ISD then walkers should be nothing... Oooo wait, why don't we actually have the Rebel win the battle of Hoth! XD

There's changes for the sake of improvement and then there are changes for nothing more than flash. You may not care about the EU and that's fine but there are many holes we can all poke in this battle and not everything needs to be explained... Like Ady said, maybe when the walker tripped the neck portion breached or cracked and the rebel pilots aimed for that weakness. Simple as that... 

In the radio drama is there anything Luke says that indicates the neck becoming a weakness after the walker drops? If so then all that's needed is to add the audio, or some other pilot saying something like "Target the neck breach" the cutting to Wedge "whoaaaa!!!!! That got him!"

Ripplin said:

Gentlemen, let's not turn this into some sort of nerd competition!

Kidding. Continue. ;)

There's competition? ;)

DF Shadow said:

"That's why I'm here... ^^"

 

LoL, not sure if you intended it but I just pictured young Obi-Wan saying that line.

Trust your feelings. ^^

The Incom T-47 speeder were highly adaptable to whatever environment they were used in although some environments where harder to adapt than others (snow ^^). The name often takes on the main characteristic name of what ever environment they are in, snowspeeder, sandspeeder, swampspeeder. skyspeeder... etc... Armament include two repeating laser canons and an added magnetic harpoon/tow cable launcher for the modified T-47s used on Hoth. They had no shields but their armor was quite good to take several hits before damage became too severe. Most of the Rebel T-47s used on Hoth were abandoned during the evacuation.

Darth Solo said:

I was going to call on Rogue Leader for the workings of the speeder if needs be

That's why I'm here... ^^

Yeah... no heavy ordinance on the T-47, only twin blaster cannons and the harpoon/tow cable launcher. 

xhonzi said:

Have the AT-AT fall, but have the side door damaged and slightly open after the crash.  Have the fly-by speeders bomb the opening instead of firing lasers at it. 

Kaboom. 

Problem solved?

Incom T-47 speeders are not equiped with bombs. Thus I suggested the Rebel ground troops running towards the crash with a portable concussion missle launcher with a combined attacked from the snowspeeders.

Anyway, there are 3 exits on the side of the body portion of the AT-AT (2 of them emergency hatches)... this would also assume that the AT-AT knelled down correctly and deployed it's boarding ramp normally... However, in this case, it's a crash, via tripping which isn't proper procedure for standard knelling down debarking. Unless you want one of those emergency inflatable airplane slides from the emergency exit and even with elapse time it'd be awkward to pull off. As cool as it would be this borders on adding things for the sake of adding things because it looks cool rather than driving anything further for the story or improving an existing shot all too much. However the angle of the AT-AT in Angel's render is an improvement if those elements can be swapped out because you can see the neck being shot at better. 

adywan said:

vaderios said:

Or you can show Ming and his friends trying to shoot imperial troops that are deploying from the crashed walker like i suggested in an old mockup. and then the speeder comes and blasts the cr@p out the walker it will make more sense(?)

After looking at the scene again there is no possible way that the troops could have got out of the Walker in time. Not only would there be injures and others would be disorientated, but there is just no time between the Walker crashing and the speeders blowing it up for anything like this to happen.

JediTray said:

On a somewhat related note, I have the OT "Entertainment Utility" that LFL released back in 1995 with all the cool sounds, phrases and video clips.  The sounds are WAV and the clips are AVI.

If it is needed, please let me know and I'll set up a torrent.  Be advised that since it is from 1995, it is most likely that you will not be able to install it.  However, all you need to do is browse the disc for all the goodies.

I've been trying to get hold of that CD set for a while now. I would be very interested in getting hold of this

You mean these: http://cgi.ebay.com/Star-Wars-Trilogy-Lmt-Ed-Entertainment-Utility-PC-NEW-/270527557211?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item3efcb2ee5b#ht_1126wt_909

sorcerer1089 said:

I am flashing back to my days of watching Adam West and Burt Ward do that on T.V. I don't think we are going for that feel with this.

Yep... that's pretty much it... lol

Monroville said:

adywan said:

Well this is how i have seen it since 1980:

The AT-At's have armour and not shielding. The neck is not a weak spot normally but when it crashes to the floor the neck fractures and therefore creates a weak spot which the speeders exploit. If the neck was permanently a weak spot then they would have just aimed for that all along.I have no problem with the AT-AT exploding so i won't be changing that

i decided against adding any ground snowtroopers because surely they would have picked off luke as he was about to destroy the Walker or as he was escaping. I was thinking of adding some deploying from the walkers towards the end though but i don't think we could get hold of any snowtroopers for the shoot

Storywise it wouldn't be that far-fetched either way, as troopers would be deployed when they got close enough to the trenches, which themselves weren't too far away from the hanger bays (not to mention that the Nazis the Empire was based on frequently had companies of troops accompany their tank divisions).

Regarding Luke, it could be that they don't notice him (as they are ahead of him) and/or they are getting picked off by snowspeeders, who are strafing them.

The real problem is actually creating the shot FX wise.  Even so, if it is FX wise possible, I think it would be a good addition to add snowtroopers at least getting out of the fallen AT-AT, as most sane people would not stay inside a burning tank while in the middle of a battle. 

A good place to possibly show snowtroopers rapelling down the sides of the AT-ATs could be when you see the 3 strafing the rebel trench lines (with the newly added AT-ATs going down from the cable lines) or any of the AT-AT scenes "after" Luke does his thing (even if it is just "dots" moving along around the mid-ground to background fallen AT-ATs, something to show that the troopers are getting out).

Repelling down the sides of an AT-AT... I don't know how many of you have been in snowtrooper armor but doing anything outside of walking and maybe a lil running if it's an open area, is dangerous for those guys. Furthermore, it is doubtful that any of the TKs I know of actually have previous training in repelling...

However, this could be faked by tilting the camera's axis and the snowtroopers kinda lean as they walk backward giving the illusion of a near vertical surface... even then... it most likely won't look like the real thing.

vaderios said:

Or you can show Ming and his friends trying to shoot imperial troops that are deploying from the crashed walker like i suggested in an old mockup. and then the speeder comes and blasts the cr@p out the walker it will make more sense(?)

-Angel

^^ I made my own suggestion for this attack actually... It involved a Rebel ground unit and a portable concussion missile launcher thus avoiding the whole pesky "aim for the neck" thing which was most likely retconned as that neck is pretty exposed on those things regardless. lol.

Yes, I am in contact with several TKs... although I think this happens too fast for Imps to scramble out of the grounded AT-AT... unless there's a hatch that's not shown and they are pouring out that's near the front there... As we are waiting and if there are good add in for Snowtroopers I can gett'em... I hope... maybe... ^^;

vaderios said:

Any ideas why he is looking high? Because he is high? :D

 

*just after Luke falls down down down*

Spirit of Obi Wan's voice: Ha! Pwned...

Vader looks up: F%#* YOU KENOBI!

cutnshut said:

Rogue Leader said:

Eh...? I don't recall a secondary tactical wing standing by... much less an Imperial one... more over the 181st...  ^^ Feel free to withdraw, Rogue Squadron has it covered. My regards to Soontir. ;)

Aaaaagh, dropped my sprite! didnt realise it had bashed the channel selector on the way down.... Im such a Dozy Imp i sent my coded message to the wrong side.......how we're ever gonna win this war i dont know.... 

Stay on Target! Yub Yub!

This is what happens when you run out of clones. ;) 

cutnshut said:

Delayed?? ground assault delayed????

Can't we at least send in the bombers for an aerial strike while Ady's recouperating?

My boys need some action! the engines are overheating and so am I! we either take off or blow up!... which would you prefer?

ciao

Bomber Command, 181st tactical group

Michael Caine (acting on behalf of)

Yub Yub!

 

Eh...? I don't recall a secondary tactical wing standing by... much less an Imperial one... more over the 181st...  ^^ Feel free to withdraw, Rogue Squadron has it covered. My regards to Soontir. ;)

Guess it's good we delayed the ground assault then Ady. Take care mate, we want you here for a long time to come and beyond just Revisited. Meditation with some light physical routines could help. =D

Regardless Rogue Squadron will be here standing by. ^^

gurgle1624 said:

ming it was on page 704 when it was last brought up,

Ty gurgle... the idea has merit but I think I know a better way to streamline it and make it implied that the metal object is hostile. =D

A B C said:

Rogue Leader said:

Oh I actually don't care what people think concerning my opinion. lol...

 I think your post was a little more than an opinion, and it was interesting (otherwise I wouldn't have quote you). Just thought the point I shared, wich was not an opinion neither but a fact, was interesting to mention. Sorry for my lacks with vocabulary or formulation.

Anyway my conclusion is that Justice makes its way ;)

 

 

Yay justice! ^^

Hey guys, I forget who actually brought this up but it has something to do with the probe droid attacking an outpost and then Han saying "It isn't friendly whatever it is..." Can someone tell me what page that's on? I have an idea too pull this off... but in a more subtle way.

A B C said:

Rogue Leader said:

Lucas had drive and grand vision he wanted to share but people forget that it's not just him that made Star Wars what it was/is...

 You know, I've got a friend who knows Star Wars as "everybody" knows it (making a few difference with "everyone" here), and I was surprised when a few months ago he took a closer look at my work and he said: "Well, as far as I understand the success of the firsts Star Wars is not due to George Lucas, but mostly to the people he worked with..." !

To notice this friend is not a scholar at all concerning cinema, directors etc... And we're even not american, nor english... So don't worry too much about what people think.

 

 

Oh I actually don't care what people think concerning my opinion. lol... I take orders from just one person, me.  Yes, it's a wonder I'm still alive.... =D I'll take orders from Ady however,  (so I guess that's two people instead of just me? ^^) but should he or anyone reach Lucas level psychosis then obviously I may alter the deal (pray... etc etc you know the line. lol) but I seriously doubt this will happen with Ady. ;) Besides, my original intent was to draw some of the fire away from the cruiser. Looks like it worked... ^^