Mrebo

Warbler said:

Well a judge must have thought it a valid one. Cause some judge authorized a search warrant for such.

I haven’t read the Cato article but I think you’d understand what yhwx is saying if you did. The boy has sued the estate of the detective (who was found to have a prurient interest in children and killed himself) who sought the warrant. And in that case a court ruled the warrant was obviously inappropriate. No idea how the issuing judge justified issuance of the warrant.

Collipso said:

Mrebo said:

Shopping Maul said:

The blue elephant in the room here is ROTJ. In ANH and TESB, the Force was basically space-yoga. It was something that anyone with the correct discipline/attitude etc could learn and perfect - the only caveat being that it was really difficult. It was implied that Luke might follow in his old man’s footsteps and have an aptitude for it, but that’s no crazier than potentially being a great footballer 'cos your Dad was. There was also nothing to suggest that Obi Wan and Yoda had plans for Luke. Obi was in retirement and Yoda seemed to have quit the Jedi business entirely.

ROTJ threw this all out the window by making Luke and Leia a potential threat by birthright alone (necessitated by making Leia the ‘other’ despite no previous Jedi connections whatsoever) and creating that ‘hidden from the Emperor’ nonsense. So now these abilities were inherited. Suddenly Leia was all cosmically aware (“he wasn’t, I can feel it”) purely because she was a Skywalker.

This continues from my previous response to you and affirms my own obsessive nerd qualities.

I am an unrepentant ROTJ apologist and I fancy myself the blue elephant in the room, as you can see from my name.

I see nothing wrong with the idea that Force sensitivity can run in families. That doesn’t mean anyone born into a family will have it nor that anybody else can’t.

Leia could well have been suppressing that part of her psyche because it was at odds with her upbringing or simply uncomfortable for her to admit. Don’t forget that Leia was the one to sense Luke hanging out under Cloud City in ESB. You could say that was all Luke’s doing or recognize it was the first inklings that Leia had latent sensitivity to the Force.

In ROTJ, when Vader referenced the possibility of using turning Leia to the dark side, that was clearly a threatening tactic, not total confidence that Leia would be powerful simply by virtue of her relation.

The idea that anybody could harness the Force if only they tried is far less compelling to me.

But when The Empire Strikes Back was released Leia wasn’t Luke’s sister.

And for purpose of narrative it makes the later reveal make all the more sense.

Behind the scenes intentions that we now know about are a different matter.

Shopping Maul said:

The blue elephant in the room here is ROTJ. In ANH and TESB, the Force was basically space-yoga. It was something that anyone with the correct discipline/attitude etc could learn and perfect - the only caveat being that it was really difficult. It was implied that Luke might follow in his old man’s footsteps and have an aptitude for it, but that’s no crazier than potentially being a great footballer 'cos your Dad was. There was also nothing to suggest that Obi Wan and Yoda had plans for Luke. Obi was in retirement and Yoda seemed to have quit the Jedi business entirely.

ROTJ threw this all out the window by making Luke and Leia a potential threat by birthright alone (necessitated by making Leia the ‘other’ despite no previous Jedi connections whatsoever) and creating that ‘hidden from the Emperor’ nonsense. So now these abilities were inherited. Suddenly Leia was all cosmically aware (“he wasn’t, I can feel it”) purely because she was a Skywalker.

This continues from my previous response to you and affirms my own obsessive nerd qualities.

I am an unrepentant ROTJ apologist and I fancy myself the blue elephant in the room, as you can see from my name.

I see nothing wrong with the idea that Force sensitivity can run in families. That doesn’t mean anyone born into a family will have it nor that anybody else can’t.

Leia could well have been suppressing that part of her psyche because it was at odds with her upbringing or simply uncomfortable for her to admit. Don’t forget that Leia was the one to sense Luke hanging out under Cloud City in ESB. You could say that was all Luke’s doing or recognize it was the first inklings that Leia had latent sensitivity to the Force.

In ROTJ, when Vader referenced the possibility of using turning Leia to the dark side, that was clearly a threatening tactic, not total confidence that Leia would be powerful simply by virtue of her relation.

The idea that anybody could harness the Force if only they tried is far less compelling to me.

Shopping Maul said:

I guess the whole thing really comes down to one’s own subjective credulity when it comes to the SW universe. I mean even Yoda’s X-wing gesture opens a can of worms. Okay, size matters not, so technically I should be able to hurl the Death Star into a neighbouring planet then? Clearly a lot of SW ‘logic’ comes down to how it ‘feels’ within the story.

I think you’re right in part about subjective credulity but it is possible to overthink or underthink some things.

Yoda seemed to strain (or at least devote great concentration) to harness the Force sufficient to lift the X-Wing, though he could do it. Though size may not matter in terms of whether one can do something, exerting influence through the Force appears limited by physical/mental capabilities. It may simply be easier to envision moving a small ship than it is to accept moving a planet-sized object. So that you could move the Death Star with great concentration but would be exhausting and you couldn’t just fling it around like it was nothing.

Or maybe Yoda didn’t intend his statement as an absolute (only Siths deal in absolutes 😛) whereby a Jedi can be like Neo in the Matrix if only he can free his mind. If that were the case, Yoda should have been able to toss the X-Wing in the air like it was nothing. Maybe the lesson was limited to the difference between moving rocks and an X-Wing and Yoda felt Luke could accomplish that feat.

There certainly are elements where there is no easily discernible reason for something, but once we go down this path…we sound like obsessed nerds.

Explanation accepted, DuracellEnergizer.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Matt.F said:

I saw this and couldn’t resist one last post… this is a wonderful example of how little has changed. Way back on June 13th 1983 the proto-internet Usenet allowed for a regular fan, not a professional movie reviewer or journo, to post his thoughts about George Lucas’s new movie Return Of The Jedi.

[trimmed for brevity]

So there you have it… proof that butthurt Star Wars nerds have been around long before this current generation of whiners and nitpickers nursing their rings following The Last Jedi!

Actually, it’s proof that some people had enough insight to realize ROTJ was crap from Day 1 instead of wallowing in nostalgic delusion for four decades.

I reject this claptrap about people loving or hating a SW movie mostly because of nostalgia. There are many thoughtful detailed posts explaining reasons for different preferences beyond a vague desire for nostalgia.

What was the reason for believing that the First Order wouldn’t chase down the smaller ships being used to escape? I know there was some line about it.

Big stories:

U.S. recognizes Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, U.N. freaks out.

ISIS defeated, now what?

Tax bill (soon law) to give most people a tax cut

I might be alone in not caring much about RT ratings and whether studios, critics, or audiences are gaming the system…

darth_ender said:

Who would star in this new movie? A dog named Eben-schnauzer?

Wow, that’s pretty bad!

That is so bad I don’t know what to say!

SilverWook said:

Remember when we were supposed to be the whiny angry fanboys with an axe to grind? My how times have changed. 😛

TLJ can be the spark that lights the fire.

Let me be the First! to say Disney ruined my adulthood!

SilverWook said:

Mrebo said:

I think many elements in the movie are mocking Star Wars. One line that really sticks out as mocking Star Wars was Luke saying “laser sword.” I wanted the world of Star Wars to take itself more seriously, that’s what makes it feel real even as we see questionable physics and crazy aliens.

His father once used that term as well, if you remember. 😉

XD that is true at least.

I recall ticking Jay off for using the wrong acronym, repeatedly, for Blu-ray Discs. Still makes me smile.

I think many elements in the movie are mocking Star Wars. One line that really sticks out as mocking Star Wars was Luke saying “laser sword.” I wanted the world of Star Wars to take itself more seriously, that’s what makes it feel real even as we see questionable physics and crazy aliens.

A youtube review that comes closest to my view of TLJ. He has another video “The Rot at the Core of New Star Wars” that I think is mostly on target.

Nice to see you, Warbler!

I am well. Life has had great ups and downs. How are you?

In case you didn’t see the Virginia race is now a tie.

I’m gone for 2 years and Luke is ready to kill his nephew and Frink is banned…need better justifications for the motives of beloved characters!

Seriously: appreciate Frink’s note and look forward to his return.

suspiciouscoffee, I think the reasoning has been explained pretty well why. It may seem like “making such a big deal” to discuss a particular aspect, but that’s just the nature of the beast. I agree with Collispo that this is merely one example of a broader problem with the movie. This issue with Luke isn’t simply that he freaked out - it’s how that aligned with what came before and why he didn’t use every effort to fix his mistake after.

Collipso said:

The execution of Han Solo’s character in Return of the Jedi is not perfect, and somewhat far from good/what it should’ve been with the message they were trying to say.
But he wasn’t contradictory to his character in the other movies like Luke is in Star Wars: The Last Jedi in any way whatsoever.

If I may amend your argument: The idea that Luke is a broken, haunted man 30 years later could work. The idea that he became so only within the last few years because he lacked the wisdom and control to deal with a relative tempted by the dark side is not terribly convincing. That part is, as you say, contradictory. Beloved characters can be taken in directions we may not love, but there is a greater call to have it be convincing. A moment of madness followed by total capitulation doesn’t line up with Luke at the end of ROTJ, absent more than Ben’s flirtations with the dark side.

I also recall most here, including me, hating on the prequels for innumerable reasons. A brave minority sought to convince that the perceived differences between the PT and OT were mostly contrived.

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

SilverWook said:

Cobra Kai said:

SilverWook said:

Cobra Kai said:

chyron8472 said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

I could almost guarantee that if TLJ’s story beats exactly matched expectations of what people were speculating, many people would have accused the film of being predictable and boring.

I would have settled for a competently told story, and one that spent less time on pointless sub-plots, useless characters, & cartoony gags, and more focus on the critical themes surrounding our hero’s struggles and growth as she takes the next step of her journey.

Because there never were any cartoony gags in the OOT.

Nope, not even close to the extent of the gags that were placed throughout TLJ. The only thing in the OOT that feels like a “gag” is the Tarzan yell in ROTJ, which fortunately is brief and not in-your-face, like the TLJ stuff.

Anyway, the gags are just one aspect of what’s wrong with the movie.

Forgetting Wicket hitting himself in the head with his own sling?

Cartoon physics when Paploo steals the speeder bike?

The slapstick only got worse in the SE’s. The droid in Mos Eisely hitting the other droid for example. Or the Jawas falling off the Ronto.

I thought it fashionable to hate on ROTJ, particularly because Ewoks. Has that changed?

ROTJ is my favorite Star Wars film. It might be “fashionable”, but in that haters-gonna-hate sort of way that gets tiring.

ROTJ is my favorite too. I recognize some flaws that were routinely identified on this forum when I was last here a couple years ago. On some points I disagreed with the naysayers.

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

We don’t need to love every tittle of the OT to point out substantial flaws in the new films or explain differences.

That assumes such flaws are substantial or indeed flaws at all.

I still say, no matter what they did some people just have expectations that would have extremely difficult to reach, and if done so could have then appealed to only that niche and annoyed another group of people instead.

Sure, and no matter what some group of people would love it. I don’t think these observations help to further discussions about what the people in this forum liked/didn’t like.

SilverWook said:

Cobra Kai said:

SilverWook said:

Cobra Kai said:

chyron8472 said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

I could almost guarantee that if TLJ’s story beats exactly matched expectations of what people were speculating, many people would have accused the film of being predictable and boring.

I would have settled for a competently told story, and one that spent less time on pointless sub-plots, useless characters, & cartoony gags, and more focus on the critical themes surrounding our hero’s struggles and growth as she takes the next step of her journey.

Because there never were any cartoony gags in the OOT.

Nope, not even close to the extent of the gags that were placed throughout TLJ. The only thing in the OOT that feels like a “gag” is the Tarzan yell in ROTJ, which fortunately is brief and not in-your-face, like the TLJ stuff.

Anyway, the gags are just one aspect of what’s wrong with the movie.

Forgetting Wicket hitting himself in the head with his own sling?

Cartoon physics when Paploo steals the speeder bike?

The slapstick only got worse in the SE’s. The droid in Mos Eisely hitting the other droid for example. Or the Jawas falling off the Ronto.

I thought it fashionable to hate on ROTJ, particularly because Ewoks. Has that changed?

Cobra Kai said:

SilverWook said:

Cobra Kai said:

chyron8472 said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

I could almost guarantee that if TLJ’s story beats exactly matched expectations of what people were speculating, many people would have accused the film of being predictable and boring.

I would have settled for a competently told story, and one that spent less time on pointless sub-plots, useless characters, & cartoony gags, and more focus on the critical themes surrounding our hero’s struggles and growth as she takes the next step of her journey.

Because there never were any cartoony gags in the OOT.

Nope, not even close to the extent of the gags that were placed throughout TLJ. The only thing in the OOT that feels like a “gag” is the Tarzan yell in ROTJ, which fortunately is brief and not in-your-face, like the TLJ stuff.

Anyway, the gags are just one aspect of what’s wrong with the movie.

Mhm. Not every superficial similarity disproves an argument against TLJ. The mouse droid moment wasn’t in the script and was funny because it was such a one off, fleeting, and slight gag.

Han speaking on the com in the cell block was an intentionally cringy moment, funny because it felt relatable and played not as a joke, but as a real moment played straight.

The Chewie yell in ROTJ was over the top but fleeting.

We don’t need to love every tittle of the OT to point out substantial flaws in the new films or explain differences.