Mrebo

Warbler said:

joefavs said:

This is the first time in my 28 years that I’ve even seen it suggested that Luke could’ve been doing anything other than choking the guards. I had no idea there was any disagreement at all about that.

This is the first time in the 34 years since the movie came out that I have heard he was force choking the guards. I must have watched ROTJ millions of times and never got that idea.

Warbler wins 😃

Maybe we can discuss the scene in a ROTJ thread.

You do all realize he’s just trolling I hope. There’s gotta be a tweet reply out there along the lines of, “you never saw The Day After Tomorrow, did you?”

joefavs said:

dahmage said:

Oh my goodness, this thread is giving me such a headache right now.

Just now?

I laughed…

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Warbler said:

I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ

I thought he was using a Jedi mind trick there.

I agree with Warb. We know what it looks like if someone is choking and that wasn’t what happened in that scene. I have always read the scene as Luke convincing the GGs to go back to their posts and sleep, their hands on their chests in a restrained or passive position.

Really? Even with the guards grabbing their throats and making choking noises? He was obviously force choking.

Pig sounds and hands on chests. Also clear they are not pushed.

Choking sounds with them clutching their throats. It’s very clear choking sounds too and not pig like sound either. Watch the scene again and you’ll see how clear it is that Luke is force choking them. And, if you need more proof, then this is direct from the novel:

Luke raised his hand and pointed at them. Before they could draw their weapons they were clutching their own throats, choking, gasping.

It is an interesting piece of evidence, though it doesn’t accurately describe the scene in the film re the weapons. Another piece of evidence is the script which doesn’t appear to mention choking.

Can i ask you, did you watch the scene again (which clearly shows they are choking by not only their actions but the clear choking sound effects) or are you just going by memory?

First memory and then watched it. I do see how one could believe they are being choked. I think it is quite ambiguous. My perception of the scene coincidentally lines up with the description found in scripts found online. Maybe it changed in production and you are right. But I don’t think the nature of their pig grunts is quite so clear.

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Warbler said:

I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ

I thought he was using a Jedi mind trick there.

I agree with Warb. We know what it looks like if someone is choking and that wasn’t what happened in that scene. I have always read the scene as Luke convincing the GGs to go back to their posts and sleep, their hands on their chests in a restrained or passive position.

Really? Even with the guards grabbing their throats and making choking noises? He was obviously force choking.

Pig sounds and hands on chests. Also clear they are not pushed.

Choking sounds with them clutching their throats. It’s very clear choking sounds too and not pig like sound either. Watch the scene again and you’ll see how clear it is that Luke is force choking them. And, if you need more proof, then this is direct from the novel:

Luke raised his hand and pointed at them. Before they could draw their weapons they were clutching their own throats, choking, gasping.

It is an interesting piece of evidence, though it doesn’t accurately describe the scene in the film re the weapons. Another piece of evidence is the script which doesn’t appear to mention choking.

Mocata said:

Mrebo said:

“That’s not what the truck looks like” is what’s wrong with how some view Star Wars. The Force can be used to influence minds. That’s the “trick.”

I don’t know what you’re saying. Luke does two things when he enters the palace, he raises his hand and chokes two guys with blatant visual and audio clues - exactly like Vader. Then he goes inside and tries to ‘trick’ Jabba with spoken words - just like Kenobi. Both are distinctive, and they are shown just as they were in the previous two movies. How are you getting the old ‘you don’t need to see his identification’ gag mixed up I don’t know, especially when he does it in the same scene. You think he did the same thing twice?

I appreciate how obvious it seems to some of you. It is a common phenomenon for people to look at the exact same thing and see totally different things. There are not blatant clues or choking. I won’t be so pedantic to insist Force choking requires a grasping hand with closing fingers, though Vader habitually did that.

Sometimes it behooves a Jedi to use speech in tandem with persuasive Force powers. With lesser minded Gamorreans it’s probably even less called for.

I think this is an instructive dialogue regarding differing perceptions of TLJ and how we deal with each other when we disagree.

yhwx said:

Mrebo said:

yhwx said:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/946531657229701120

In the East, it could be the COLDEST New Year’s Eve on record. Perhaps we could use a little bit of that good old Global Warming that our Country, but not other countries, was going to pay TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS to protect against. Bundle up!

It is bitterly cold here.

Not so much in other places.

Well then those other places should be spending some trillions to do something about it 😉

Mocata said:

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Warbler said:

I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ

I thought he was using a Jedi mind trick there.

I agree with Warb. We know what it looks like if someone is choking and that wasn’t what happened in that scene. I have always read the scene as Luke convincing the GGs to go back to their posts and sleep, their hands on their chests in a restrained or passive position.

Really? Even with the guards grabbing their throats and making choking noises? He was obviously force choking.

Especially considering that’s not what the mind trick looks like and the fact the whole movie is building up to will-he-won’t-he with the final denial of the dark side at the end. No idea why someone would think otherwise. But then I’ve no idea how some people process any kind of movie information these days.

“That’s not what the truck looks like” is what’s wrong with how some view Star Wars. The Force can be used to influence minds. That’s the “trick.”

Frank your Majesty said:

Mrebo said:

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Warbler said:

I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ

I thought he was using a Jedi mind trick there.

I agree with Warb. We know what it looks like if someone is choking and that wasn’t what happened in that scene. I have always read the scene as Luke convincing the GGs to go back to their posts and sleep, their hands on their chests in a restrained or passive position.

Really? Even with the guards grabbing their throats and making choking noises? He was obviously force choking.

Pig sounds and hands on chests. Also clear they are not pushed.

It looks nothing like the Stormtrooper who gets force-tricked by Obi-Wan, he was acting completely normal. The guards do not act normal.

Of course they don’t act normal. Nothing to do with the particular influence exercised on the Stormtrooper. When a guard puts their arm on their chest it is a sign of respect in many a film. The guards had their hands on their chests and walked backward and fell asleep. Choking looks very different.

Edit: also, go take a look at the ROTJ script.

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Warbler said:

I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ

I thought he was using a Jedi mind trick there.

I agree with Warb. We know what it looks like if someone is choking and that wasn’t what happened in that scene. I have always read the scene as Luke convincing the GGs to go back to their posts and sleep, their hands on their chests in a restrained or passive position.

Really? Even with the guards grabbing their throats and making choking noises? He was obviously force choking.

Pig sounds and hands on chests. Also clear they are not pushed.

yhwx said:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/946531657229701120

In the East, it could be the COLDEST New Year’s Eve on record. Perhaps we could use a little bit of that good old Global Warming that our Country, but not other countries, was going to pay TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS to protect against. Bundle up!

It is bitterly cold here.

Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Warbler said:

I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ

I thought he was using a Jedi mind trick there.

I agree with Warb. We know what it looks like if someone is choking and that wasn’t what happened in that scene. I have always read the scene as Luke convincing the GGs to go back to their posts and sleep, their hands on their chests in a restrained or passive position.

Warbler said:

Gaffer Tape said:

I’m really hoping they don’t kill Leia off. I want at least one of the big three to just be able to retire happily rather than dying for the cause. We’ve already had two die for the cause. I want Leia to have stepped back with her head held high, convinced she’s paid her dues for the cause, and ready to leave everything in the capable hands of the next generation. Then I want her to retire to the Star Wars equivalent of Risa and spend her remaining years being tended to by a hunky cabana boy.

They could easily say all of that in dialogue. =P

Seeing how the resistance lost so many people in TLJ, I have a difficult time believing that she’d just step back.

It’s a theme of the new trilogy! When the going gets tough, the tough give up!

NYC crime rate drops: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/27/nyregion/new-york-city-crime-2017.html

Speaking of Porkins, one Star Wars trope I’m really tired of: fat rebel pilot gets blown up.

Gaffer Tape said:

I’m really hoping they don’t kill Leia off. I want at least one of the big three to just be able to retire happily rather than dying for the cause. We’ve already had two die for the cause. I want Leia to have stepped back with her head held high, convinced she’s paid her dues for the cause, and ready to leave everything in the capable hands of the next generation. Then I want her to retire to the Star Wars equivalent of Risa and spend her remaining years being tended to by a hunky cabana boy.

They could easily say all of that in dialogue. =P

Let it play out as a conversation between Chewie and 3PO, that let’s us use our imagination a bit more and a few suggestive growls could mean “hunky cabana boy.”

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

Jeebus said:

It’s not the movies fault that you missed an important detail.

I missed it cause it isn’t there.

Uhh, what?

the important detail(s) explaining what Luke was doing and whatnot. It wasn’t there.

It was clearly shown that he did not interact with the salt.

EDIT: Not sure about the image policy, so I’ll just put them in quotes and pretend that it makes a difference.

Kylo:

Luke:

Maybe some people are super duper observant, but that’s a detail which I doubt many people noticed. And frankly, it isn’t an important detail. It was a nice touch but that’s it.

Warbler said:
Also could argue that Vader was going to kill Obiwan in the end anyway due to Obiwan being so old at the time of the fight.

You raise a lot of good questions, Warbler. I’m only pulling this particular point out to note that Mark Hammill is 66 years old while Alec Guinness was 63 in 1977.

@ TV’s Frink

I responded to your friend’s passage that you posted. I think it apparent that he is generalizing. I think that generalization is wrong. The main point is that I think there is nothing wrong with the vast majority of negative expressions concerning this movie and we needn’t paint with a broad brush to question motivations.

I think it is really hard to take someone else’s work and make something good and faithful to the source material. I’ve been working on a non-Star Wars writing project based on an old work, and the following quote from Johnson resonated with me: “There’s a lot of possibilities with how to take it… Even just as a Star Wars fan, you realize there are patterns etched into your brain of how you think it should go. It’s tough, because you don’t want to let yourself be guided by those deep-set grooves in your brain, but you also don’t want to make creative decisions just to spite those. It’s an interesting line to ride.”

Even when one doesn’t mean to, it is easy to fall into certain traps. (Where is Admiral Ackbar when you need him? Oh yeah…) Characters can become shadows of themselves or props (R2, Chewie) because they should be there but you don’t know what to do with them. Inevitably, a new creator has different sensibilities than the original creator. I think these forces help explain a lot about what we liked and didn’t like in the movie. I think there were elements of Star Wars that Johnson understood very well and others he didn’t understand at all.

TV’s Frink said:

A guildmate of mine on SWGOH just posted this, and it’s a good read.

https://thelovepirate.net/2017/12/28/lets-talk-about-luke-and-other-spoiler-filled-thoughts-on-star-wars-the-last-jedi/

Favorite bit:

The reality is, I could easily be one of those angry white men on the internet, writing petitions calling for The Last Jedi to be stricken from the Star Wars canon. But I’m not. As much as Luke Skywalker means to me personally, I don’t own him, nor do I own Star Wars. No one is under any obligation to make the movie I want. But beyond that, I’m not so arrogant to assume that the vision I had in my head for how Luke’s story should go is either the best or the most meaningful story for the character. Nor is my sense of masculinity so fragile or toxic for me to feel threatened that the supreme white, male hero of Star Wars was “sidelined” or “made a pussy” while women and people of color got bigger, more overtly heroic roles.

But also:

So we’re left with a broken Luke Skywalker, who in his failure has removed himself from the galaxy and closed himself off from the Force. It’s what he thinks is safest for everyone, and he blames himself for Ben’s fall just as Yoda and Obi-Wan blamed themselves for the fall of Anakin and the Republic. The Last Jedi is all about what it really means to be a hero, and Luke’s story fits right into that. He may not be a villain, but his bitterness and withdrawal leave him as a hero in need of redemption. Rey takes him most of the way there, awakening his interest and his connection with the galaxy. R2-D2 reminds him of the necessity of hope, of believing that things can get better if we fight for them, rather than just vowing to do nothing to make them worse. Chewie busts his door down to get his attention. And Yoda gives him the kick in the pants he needs to choose a different path, rather than double down on his condemnation of the Jedi and his desire to end it.

In fact, Yoda’s appearance doubles as a message to Luke and a message to the audience. Luke Skywalker is not the most important man in the universe. As the “Last Jedi”, Luke felt that everything rested on his shoulders. He felt the responsibility to murder Ben, even if only for a moment, in order to save the galaxy. He removed himself from the equation for the same reason, so that he wouldn’t be the cause of any more suffering. He refused to train Rey, despite her already knowing so much, to avoid repeating his mistakes. But Yoda reminds him that we learn from our failures and Luke has one more lesson to learn. He’s not the center of the universe, just one of many pieces. And in fact, his time is coming to an end. “We are what they grow beyond,” Yoda tells Luke, meaning that Rey, and the others, will take his place. Luke’s death would not be the end of the Jedi, any more than Leia’s will be the end of the Rebellion, because we have new heroes capable of leading the way, making their own mistakes, learning from them and becoming better. Yoda even takes the choice of burning the Jedi books away from Luke, calling down a lightning strike on the tree in order, I believe, to cover Rey’s theft of them. Yoda has seen his generation be replaced by Luke’s and knows that it wasn’t the end, and he’s going to get Luke to that revelation no matter how many times he has to whack him with his cane.

To be fair, white males dominate the fanbase. So hating on them specifically makes poor sense; and seemingly ignoring that non-white non-male fans may equally have problems with the films is not fair to those fans.

I maintain that Luke’s transformation could have made sense, but the execution in this film didn’t do it for many fans, including myself. Castigating fans as woman-hating white males may feel good, but it’s a weak response to substantive story-based critiques. It is true that fans may hate a story or character choice, no matter how well done. I see no reason to tell those fans, “how dare you! don’t you know Disney owns it and can do whatever they want?” There is no arrogance involved in not liking a story. How silly.

If the recurring response to critics is going to be that they’re angry white men, this isn’t going to go the way you think.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

nhoj3 said:

[dahmage said:

I really agree with your dislike of the dark and gritty DCEU, but i am perplexed that you would lump this with those (hyperbole aside). Luke is shown as ‘not perfect’ and struggling with how to exist as a perfect legend, and a flawed human. And i feel like he resolves this by the end of the film, so I didn’t come away feeling that he was flawed when i left the theater.

JJ / TFA set RJ up with a difficult question to answer: Why would Luke go missing for all of this time? RJ came up with the best answer he felt that he could… that Luke felt compelled to take himself (and the Jedi) out of the equation, leaving the Knights of Ren to run amok.

That just doesn’t ring true to the character for me.

But… but it’s what Ben Kenobi and Yoda did.

Ben Kenobi and Yoda did not themselves attempt to defeat Vader and Palpatine after the events of Episode III, even though Yoda himself says “only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally could conquer Vader and his Emperor.” They left Luke and the Rebel Alliance to do it for them.

Exactly right.

I continue to be amazed how many people are holding the ST to a different standard than the OT.

It’s also frustrating that people say Luke being anything less than perfect (i.e. one moment of weakness that quickly passes) is “out of character.” Did he not have a moment of weakness in ROTJ as well?

I don’t see a different standard applied by those put off by Luke’s characterization in TLJ. The desire for a character to make sense, especially a familiar one like Luke, is about good storytelling. I don’t know who wants Luke to be perfect. His imperfections in the OT were what made him more interesting.

The objection by many is that Luke’s characterization isn’t consonant with what we knew about him in the OT. We are led to believe his change happened just a few years ago when he suffered a moment of madness and then totally gave up. I don’t know what flips the switch in each person’s brain to determine if they buy the reasons were given for that change. I think good reasons have been expressed for not buying what we are given in the film.

Not that it matters very much, but I don’t think Ben Kenobi was broken nor was Yoda. Kenobi was ready to go at a moment’s notice. It helped that we didn’t have any other conception of Kenobi to square his behavior with - so what we were given we accepted as in character for him. Same for Yoda, who was at the end of his life when Luke met him. There was also an undercurrent of mysticism in Kenobi allowing himself to be killed and in Yoda’s dictate that Luke needed to be the one, however unprepared, to face Vader.

Frank your Majesty said:

Also, noone came to help them when they were hiding on the planet even though the First Order fleet was decimated, so I don’t think anyone would have sent a tanker while the fleet was still at full force.

I have no idea what the state of affairs is in the galaxy so I can’t guess what is reasonable. I guess the First Order is a powerful military entity with no particular base of operations. And it seems the Resistance is a handful of ships. And since a bunch of planets were destroyed in TFA, all the rest of the galaxy is keeping to themselves? Why couldn’t everyone run off on small ships to Canto Bight or wherever?

Warbler said:

I didn’t realize the cop had a thing for children. That certainly puts a different spin on things.

I guess what I am saying is the judge should be sued as well.

From the internet:

“The Supreme Court held in Pierson v. Ray that judges are protected by absolute immunity when they act in a judicial capacity, even if they act unconstitutionally.”

TavorX said:

I think it would had been a touching moment for the mechanical hand to fall, but I agree that a Force ghost Luke would have both hands in tact. Ultimately, kind of a non-issue because just as Rian Johnson forgot to film that little detail, I bet many of us that watched it also didn’t think about it, me included.

As with Leila and Chewie ignoring each other after Han’s death isn’t the standard explanation, “because the Force”?

Collipso said:

I think some of the criticism that’s been directed at TLJ should be directed at TFA instead. TFA set up its sequels with having to answer so many questions that should’ve been answered by TFA itself. It worked as a first part in a two parter, and it should’ve been a standalone film to set things up, like Star Wars and even The Phantom Menace were.
One example is Snoke and the First Order. Why not just tell us how he rose to power and how the First Order came to be in TFA? Why leave it to the other movies? But no, screw it. TFA shouldn’t have left a mystery box for the other movies to fill.

Yep. This is what makes otherwise good moments fall flat on their face, like Snoke. Snoke mattered because he apparently came out of nowhere to undo all the accomplishments of the OT. Once you establish how… then kill him.