Mrebo

Zak fett said:

The last Jedi has left a few unanswered questions. Kylo Ren seemed to perfectly recall himself waking up and Luke holding a GREEN lightsaber up at him (his lightsaber from RotJ). So when Luke and Ren were about to face off in TLJ he should’ve noticed the hilt was Luke’s original blue blade, The same one that him and Rey split in half. Now for those who say “well maybe he generally didn’t look at the hilt”, I perfectly recall him noticing it in the force awakens. It was the first thing he said when Finn pulled it out hence probably one of the first thing he looks at.
Another thing I sort of picked up on is, Maz has been alive to see the PT-OT-ST so I expect she would no who and how many people know how to break onto The Supremacy. So where did this guy in prison come from?

Now these are nitpicks. A person’s focus shifts. When their thoughts are intently focused on one thing, they may miss another or care more about the main thought in their head (such as OMG, Luke is here). Maz may be old, but that doesn’t mean omniscient. She presumably named the person she thought capable and trustworthy and locatable, among any other unknown characteristics. It’s not like there can’t be anybody else in the galaxy who is competent at hacking.

Matt.F said:

Nitpick, complain, whine, whinge… throw toys out of the pram! However you want to word it, there’s an awful lot of it going on.

It comes down to people complaining that there is a bad thing in the Sequel Trilogy, and you hold up the mirror and say well look, that same bad thing happened in the Original Trilogy.

If only you knew the power of the Dark Side.

What you miss in your response is that Yoda≠Luke.

Matt.F said:

The worst part about rebutting nitpickers is that you have to ‘become one’.

Nitpicker: “Luke would never have turned his back on the world. I hate TLJ!”

Me: “But Yoda turned his back on the world.”

Uh-oh wait… does that mean I now have to hate ESB?! Dang!

When you said “nitpick” I though you meant something like “there was no lightsaber-on-lighstber action” or “why not use droids to blast jump to hyperspace through every obstacle” not something like “I don’t buy Luke’s characterization.”

Porkins4real said:

adywan said:

And to those that say that part of the backlash against TLJ has nothing to do with racist/ misogynistic/hompophobic feelings in the SW community, you only have to see this one post on facebook and read the comments:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1682570385096504&set=gm.531837527203014&type=3&theater&ifg=1

And that is just ONE post. I’m seeing shit like this all the time. It’s starting to flood the net now. My Youtube channel got spammed with this type of crap and its all over facebook. Comments galore about how Kennedy is pushing a female agenda and making all the males into pussys, pushing forced diversity just for the Asian market, that they didn’t need all this shit in the OT and the prequels did a proper job at showing what the races really are like, how Rey should have been a guy and it would have made her being so powerful believable because women are weaker than men, and it goes on, but there is so much that i would never repeat.

Yes, its fine that people don’t like this movie, but you cannot deny that a large section think they are on a crusade against anything that isn’t white powerful and male. It’s gotten a lot worse since a certain person was elected as now they think their beliefs are accepted. It just makes me sick what the fandom has become.

The internet has a bit of everything for everyone - both good an bad. Funny enough my youtube channels have never brought anything like this up, but likely because I would ignore it if it did. I believe Facebook also tracks what you have read and brings you more of the same assuming that is what you like to read.

I know there is much more being writing about how positive diversity is in the new SW films and the comments you are reading are on the fringe.

Yeah, I really ignore all that stuff. There is a proper place and way to talk about the marketing/sociopolitical aspects of movie making. I don’t think that place is here. I think it best we turn away from the topic.

Racer Cool, NFBisms’s bolded sentence encapsulates everything you write.

You’re just reexplaining the way you view Star Wars and what you like about it. Believe me, I understand the, but-it’s-inconsistent argument. I think “dissonant” best describes what you (me, and many others) see.

There are many here who feel TLJ not is not inconsistent and explain their reasoning. But they can also accept, as NFBism seems to, that there is a dissonance. And some will like that dissonance.

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

I see a possible super hero trope at work here but I’m withholding judgment: where a villain arises essentially as a response to the existence of the hero (we did see that debate sort of in Captain America Civil War, and we’ve seen it in the DC universe).

Actually, Snoke outright says the reverse: that the hero arose essentially as a response to the existence of a villain.

It’s the opposite! As the RLM guys would say, “very cool.” Less facetiously: that’s what I’m talking about but it’s the same idea. I’m withholding judgment on whether I like where they seem to be going with this whole “balance of the Force” stuff. I didn’t like that aspect of the PT (about the need for “balance”) but I’ll await the EIX.

chyron8472 said:

I do not understand the comparisons people are making to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Yes, I know Disney owns both Marvel and LFL. But I have only seen a few Marvel superhero movies and I don’t understand what they have in common with The Last Jedi or possible Star Wars films going forward.

Someone please explain what the MCU has to do with Star Wars and/or why that’s bad?

To be fair, I brought up Disney’s 2011 Winnie the Pooh movie as a point of comparison instead. Some see a similar style of humor, interjecting awkward one liners into intense moments. I think that humor is problematic, but it is distracting to talk about the MCU as if it matters for arguing that the humor is bad here. I see a possible super hero trope at work here but I’m withholding judgment: where a villain arises essentially as a response to the existence of the hero (we did see that debate sort of in Captain America Civil War, and we’ve seen it in the DC universe).

Edit: As for whether any of this is bad is in the eye of the beholder.

yotsuya said:

An important question considering what one of the main issues is with the PT. Does anyone think the acting in the ST has been bad?

Not really. People pick on the acting in the OT as not very good. I think you can find moments where the dialogue wasn’t always sold very well (here and in the OT, and certainly the PT). I think that has more to do with the writing than the actors. I posted a few pages back about one of Hammill’s line that wasn’t sold very well, much as Hammill gave it his all.

TV’s Frink said:

There were actually two shots of the texts. I missed both the first time I saw the movie and it was this thread that clued me in to watch for it the second time.

I only saw the one.
I’m thinking they probably start like this:

SilverWook said:

So, everybody has forgotten or didn’t see the blink and you’ll miss it shot of those ancient Jedi books stashed away on the Falcon? Rey may not have a living trainer, but she’s got the instruction manuals.

I bet they read like stereo instructions.

To complement the video I posted at the top of page 118 praising the concept and themes of TLJ, I recommend this video describing problems with the movie’s execution.

I think an excellent point is made that “when things happen that maybe you don’t agree with or they’re kind of wacky or new you can embrace them more if you’re really emotionally invested.”

The author of the video describes changes to the film (keeping the same themes and the main plot) that I find fairly compelling.

Ryan said:

One thing I didn’t like was you have Return of the Jedi. And then a couple of movies later you have The Last Jedi with apparently Luke being the last Jedi. It kind of makes the “Return” rather pointless.

Ah, but remember Yoda’s words in ROTJ, “Luke, when gone am I… the last of the Jedi will you be.”

He was being totally serious and literal.

I like Wook’s sense of humor.

TV’s Frink said:

Dave Barry?

How old are you anyway? :p

Dave Barry’s Year in Review

Surprisingly no mention of Star Wars but it is mostly focused on politics.

moviefreakedmind said:

It is a justification. It’s always, “He could’ve had a gun.” Well, he didn’t have a gun, and if police have the right to shoot people to death, then they better be trained enough to determine whether or not someone is actually a threat. Too often, they do that incompetently. Also, if we’re going to live in a country where everyone has a God-given right to bear arms, then “he might’ve had a gun” shouldn’t be an excuse to kill somebody.

I certainly agree that an officer can’t shoot someone just because they might have a gun. But police are legally justified in killing if they act out of a reasonable fear that there is an imminent threat to life or serious bodily harm. Sometimes there might not be a gun but the fear is nonetheless reasonable. Waiting to determine if there “is actually a threat” means it can be too late for the police officer. In this case, given the distance, I don’t know how reasonable the fear was if the guy only maybe seemed to reach toward his waist. The police would likely say the call they received played into their “reasonable fear.”

To see how difficult these cases are, you can look up the shooting of Daniel Shaver. The officer was prosecuted for the killing and found not guilty, under a disturbing set of facts, there is also video.

I think Warbler is saying the officers might have been justified. And maybe. I’m very skeptical given what we do know. We need a lot more information.

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

I don’t know why that is funny.

It’s funny because you are willing to justify any police shooting.

I’m done with this.

You are. It’s always, “Well, he could’ve had a gun.” Even if the person isn’t guilty you still use this excuse to justify police officers shooting people to death.

In the past, I found Warbler quite skeptical of police who shoot people. I think a member who used to frequent this thread caused him to rethink that skepticism, and Warbler is willing to give greater benefit of doubt to police officers. I don’t see Warbler justifying police shooting people, although I don’t see anything that he sees in that video.

If you want to hear why TLJ is awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbHUJEH-ERI

I think some of his premises are wrong and his analysis doesn’t speak to how the movie was executed, but he makes some observations worth considering.

SilverWook said:

Episode IX I think I’m a clone now…

Ooh, I like where this is going. It was a clone Luke who sacrificed himself in TLJ. Clone Luke’s ‘damage’ was due to struggling with his identity as Not Real Luke. Real Luke has been imprisoned all this time and arrives triumphantly in the beginning of EIX…

DominicCobb said:

Dre seems to think they threw the old themes of the OT in the trash bin. I don’t think that’s true at all. They just complimented and complicated them, which I think was necessary to grow the franchise, rather than keep it stagnant and same-y (like most other franchises do).

That was a problem I had with Disney’s 2011 Winnie the Pooh.

In the scene with Yoda when Luke says “ancient Jedi texts” I am reminded of Harrison Ford’s statement to Lucas.

Porkins4real said:

Mrebo said:

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.

Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.

Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.

Disney should know better? I think the box office for TFA and TLJ shows they understand how to make money just fine. And of course that’s their goal, they’re a giant corporation.

My daughters saw the OT before TFA, and they really like the OT. But they love TFA. Rey is their hero, not Luke. The OT has basically like one female character.

They have to play the long game. The movies are the catalyst for a lot of money making enterprises. So my comment about the DC universe. Good numbers out of the gate as fans wanted to see these stories as movies forever, but then numbers turned bad.

It would not have taken much to give something to the long to fans of SW and still build new appeal. Crapping all over Luke was a bad move. He may not be the hero to your daughters, but for many he was and he deserved better.

If they continue this trend - one day your daughters get to enjoy a movie where Rey turns out to be piece of crap who tries to kill babies in her spare time.

This is ludicrous. I know the movie hurt you bad but come on.

Also to a large percentage of us who grew up with Luke, TLJ Luke was fantastic. “Crapping all over Luke” is just your opinion.

Just a ludicrous as Lukes story base on his ROFTJ character. IF they can take Luke have luke make such a turn, why not Rey in the future? Nothing sacrosanct anymore in the SW universe.

Porkins, stop expressing just your opinions already 😉

Let’s indulge a bit: what did you like about the TLJ?

Things I liked:

-The acting was one of the better of the SW franchise
-Visuals / Cinemaphotography was great
-Red Guards actually fighting was cool
-Lukes projection fight with Kylo
-Rey despite the Character Flaws
-Kylo being shown as Bad guy that is not just pure evil
-Leah using the force (but hated the way it was shot)
-Lukes moments with Chewie and R2
-No Jar Jar
-Fat in guy in X wing - Tubbs

• A few plot holes, but entertaining

If it was a non-cannon movie I would have no issue with it. Not the best movie I saw this month, but worth the $16 I paid to see it

Agree with almost all of this. I already said a few pages back I’m annoyed at the fat guy in an X-wing gets blown up trope. There was one in R1 also, right?

TV’s Frink said:

Even if we could, no one would agree on it #rotjpigmen.

Absolutely. I made the point twice that this kind of disagreement is very common. We see it in politics constantly. We can look at the same exact thing, a story, a video, anything and see something totally different. If people can’t even agree on what happens in a fantasy movie clip, of course we have trouble seeing each other’s points of views in politics.

I read a good memoir, “The Job: True Tales from the Life of a New York City Cop,” and one of the first stories the cop/author tells is about him seeing a guy pull a knife on another guy in broad daylight in a park. The cop is in his car and hits the gas, knocking down the guy with the knife. And you know what happens, a mob forms of the people there in the park and they start attacking the officer - who they say ran the guy down for no reason. It was like nobody else saw the knife and were more than happy to assume certain facts.

No matter how many times one points out that people think this way, people will be happy to continue insisting they are absolutely right and refuse to entertain any contrary possibility.

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.

Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.

Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.

Disney should know better? I think the box office for TFA and TLJ shows they understand how to make money just fine. And of course that’s their goal, they’re a giant corporation.

My daughters saw the OT before TFA, and they really like the OT. But they love TFA. Rey is their hero, not Luke. The OT has basically like one female character.

They have to play the long game. The movies are the catalyst for a lot of money making enterprises. So my comment about the DC universe. Good numbers out of the gate as fans wanted to see these stories as movies forever, but then numbers turned bad.

It would not have taken much to give something to the long to fans of SW and still build new appeal. Crapping all over Luke was a bad move. He may not be the hero to your daughters, but for many he was and he deserved better.

If they continue this trend - one day your daughters get to enjoy a movie where Rey turns out to be piece of crap who tries to kill babies in her spare time.

This is ludicrous. I know the movie hurt you bad but come on.

Also to a large percentage of us who grew up with Luke, TLJ Luke was fantastic. “Crapping all over Luke” is just your opinion.

Just a ludicrous as Lukes story base on his ROFTJ character. IF they can take Luke have luke make such a turn, why not Rey in the future? Nothing sacrosanct anymore in the SW universe.

Porkins, stop expressing just your opinions already 😉

Let’s indulge a bit: what did you like about the TLJ?

Warbler said:

I don’t know why that is funny.

Like I said, the image of the guy is blurry. But it looks like he has something in his hands resembling a gun that is aimed at the police.

Looks to me like he’s juggling bananas.

Seriously, we can’t see anything clear in that video.