Mrebo

NFBisms said:

Mrebo said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

I’m glad someone who really liked the movie put it this way. I think you’re right that this is what the movie is doing and that’s what I really dislike about it. There is a tremendous navel-gazing quality that overtakes telling a good Star Wars story (because apparently it’s running out of fuel).

My initial impulse is that where TFA insulted our intelligence, TLJ flatters it. That is part of the appeal, especially to professional critics. As an intelligent/educated person I feel that allure. Yet, I do not agree that the themes in TLJ are deeper or more meaningful. That is the seduction of a meta-deconstruction of past themes but it is an illusion.

The split between the fans, like the split on Starkiller Base, is almost itself meta. We may never know who won…

Maybe not deeper per se, but they are certainly new to the franchise, and that was fine for me.

Let’s not make this about intelligence levels btw.

Seemingly deep complex themes generally appeal to people with certain intelligence/education levels. That’s not a value judgment. It’s why a child (who doesn’t pick up on meta-deconstructions but understands good vs evil) may get something entirely different out of this movie. I like that as an adult I can have a deeper understanding of the themes. A professional movie critic is more immersed in knowledge of films and themes, so that they do look for something different. None of these should be seen as controversial or derisive of anyone.

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

I’m glad someone who really liked the movie put it this way. I think you’re right that this is what the movie is doing and that’s what I really dislike about it. There is a tremendous navel-gazing quality that overtakes telling a good Star Wars story (because apparently it’s running out of fuel).

My initial impulse is that where TFA insulted our intelligence, TLJ flatters it. That is part of the appeal, especially to professional critics. As an intelligent/educated person I feel that allure. Yet, I do not agree that the themes in TLJ are deeper or more meaningful. That is the seduction of a meta-deconstruction of past themes but it is an illusion.

The split between the fans, like the split on Starkiller Base, is almost itself meta. We may never know who won…

SilverWook, it is in many respects a terrible movie which I enjoyed the first time and plan to see again tomorrow. Maybe I will ask for a refund for both viewings after. It’s not real loathing until one requests a refund 😉

TV’s Frink said:

brash_stryker said:

I can’t believe this is even being disputed.

Have you missed the force choke discussion?

This beats the force choke debate by a mile.

I can absolutely believe there is a dispute because people come with different frames of reference for what they see.

In this case, Kylo is laying flat on his back defenseless and Rey in command standing over him. To me, that’s beaten.

We could imagine that Kylo might refuse to yield, Rey wouldn’t be quick to strike, and all kinds of gymnastics and force powers might ensue. That’s a reasonable thought, but that didn’t happen. By my criteria he didn’t need to surrender or be unconscious/dead to have been beaten. The fight ended when the planet split and at that point Kylo was beaten. That’s no different if Rey simply ran away at that point, that wouldn’t mean it was a draw or that she lost.

Just thought I’d add thoughts beyond: I can’t believe you think that!

TV’s Frink said:

Gaffer Tape said:

TV’s Frink said:

I honestly don’t remember. It’s amazing it’s gone on this long.

If memory serves, the debate was about whether Luke was in character, yadda, yadda, yadda. Someone gave a list of dark or dark-ish behaviors Luke perpetrated in ROTJ: cutting off Vader’s hand, putting nipple clamps on an Ewok, force choking people, etc. Warb expressed confusion at the force choking thing, and here we are!

Warb wasn’t first, Mrebo was before that (and maybe someone else I can’t remember). Otherwise sounds spot on…I forgot about the Ewok thing!

I was backing up Warb that I read the scene the same as him.

This discussion is enough to give Admiral Motti heartburn.

The swatter did an interview apparently. Only listen if you want your blood to boil:
https://www.redstate.com/patterico/2017/12/30/listen-interview-swatter-got-innocent-man-killed-wichita/

TV’s Frink said:

Mielr said:

Warbler said:

which obviously for years I didn’t think were choking noises.

Someone check the closed-captioning to see if it says: “(CHOKING NOISES)” 😉

It actually says LOVESTRUCK NOISES. So as someone said earlier, the guards are just overcome by Luke’s handsomeness.

About time you say something reasonable 😛

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

Mielr said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

It doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s on the screen, and they’re clearly being choked. They make gurgling sounds and put their hands up to their throats.

The screenplay might show what they intended Luke to be doing in that scene.

Why is this still a debate?

Because I’ve watched that scene millions of times over the last 34 years since it came out, and I never got the idea he was using force choke.

I posted the quotes from the novelization AND the screenplay on pg. 106 (is anyone listening?! LOL!!!)

Those were discussed. The novelization is obviously at odds with what we see on screen and you must contend that even if everything else in that quote is wrong (dropping weapons, falling to knees) then at least the choking is true. The screenplay lines up with my view of the scene and rather than being “less specific” as you say, simply describes something very different from the novel. I don’t begrudge the inferences you wish to draw from the scene, but I think it is way more ambiguous than many are willing to accept.

But the screenplays out there are condensed versions. Most of the stage directions etc are missing. Things are also changed during filming. But How anyone can not see that it is a force choke ( with the guards making CLEAR chocking sounds and grabbing their throats , although one struggles to get his hand in the right position due to the size and padding of the suit) is beyond me. Sorry, but you can’t deny they are choking. It’s as clear as day.

And Mark saying Luke wouldn’t do the force choke was off a quick question and answer vid. He just forgot (which he admitted after). After all this is the guy who has admitted that he hasn’t watched the films outside of their premieres.

I agree with Frink the novel and the screenplay aren’t great proof. If the GGs weren’t pig people, the sounds would be easily understood as choking noises. There’s really just one little sound in there that sounds like it could be a choking sound. Then there are some grunts. But they are pig people. Holding onto weapons in one hand doesn’t indicate choking to me, Luke’s gesture doesn’t indicate choking to me. I can only say so many times that you may be right. But there are enough contrary and ambiguous cues that it’s not so crazy that any number of people don’t see it as obvious.

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

That’s obviously not what I’ve been saying. They ultimately go to sleep. I don’t think it’s super important what Luke is doing there, though I understand some of you read all kinds of foreshadowing into it. If we got answers from the people playing the GGs that they were being choked, okay. But a split second halting pig noise and hands going to the chest/neck with a vague hand gesture isn’t so obviously choking. The fleeting moment doesn’t seem to have meant to carry the import some attach anyway.

So wait, what are you saying then? It’s not obvious to me at all.

I thought you said Luke did a mind trick to make them go to sleep.

The way I’ve viewed the scene, as have others notwithstanding your disbelief, is that Luke used his powers to cause them to lower their weapons, step away and then fall into sleep against the wall. I never gave it all kinds of thought about the precise mechanics used. I do know that if you construct a scene of somebody choking someone it would probably be the way described in the novel, and maybe have Luke’s hand closing like Vader’s. Again, I can say it is possible that he was doing some choking. In watching the scene, the fleeting gestures and noises (from pig people composed of seemingly cumbersome costumes) isn’t so totally obviously choking.

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

That’s obviously not what I’ve been saying. They ultimately go to sleep. I don’t think it’s super important what Luke is doing there, though I understand some of you read all kinds of foreshadowing into it. If we got answers from the people playing the GGs that they were being choked, okay. But a split second halting pig noise and hands going to the chest/neck with a vague hand gesture isn’t so obviously choking. The fleeting moment doesn’t seem to have meant to carry the import some attach anyway.

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

Mielr said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

It doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s on the screen, and they’re clearly being choked. They make gurgling sounds and put their hands up to their throats.

The screenplay might show what they intended Luke to be doing in that scene.

Why is this still a debate?

Because I’ve watched that scene millions of times over the last 34 years since it came out, and I never got the idea he was using force choke.

I posted the quotes from the novelization AND the screenplay on pg. 106 (is anyone listening?! LOL!!!)

Those were discussed. The novelization is obviously at odds with what we see on screen and you must contend that even if everything else in that quote is wrong (dropping weapons, falling to knees) then at least the choking is true. The screenplay lines up with my view of the scene and rather than being “less specific” as you say, simply describes something very different from the novel. I don’t begrudge the inferences you wish to draw from the scene, but I think it is way more ambiguous than many are willing to accept.

The screenplay and the novel are both essentially EU because they aren’t the movie. You shouldn’t have to read or watch anything directly out of the movie to understand what is going on.

On this we agree! As I said, I don’t begrudge the inferences you wish to draw from the scene, but I think it is way more ambiguous than many are willing to accept.

Mielr said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

It doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s on the screen, and they’re clearly being choked. They make gurgling sounds and put their hands up to their throats.

The screenplay might show what they intended Luke to be doing in that scene.

Why is this still a debate?

Because I’ve watched that scene millions of times over the last 34 years since it came out, and I never got the idea he was using force choke.

I posted the quotes from the novelization AND the screenplay on pg. 106 (is anyone listening?! LOL!!!)

Those were discussed. The novelization is obviously at odds with what we see on screen and you must contend that even if everything else in that quote is wrong (dropping weapons, falling to knees) then at least the choking is true. The screenplay lines up with my view of the scene and rather than being “less specific” as you say, simply describes something very different from the novel. I don’t begrudge the inferences you wish to draw from the scene, but I think it is way more ambiguous than many are willing to accept.

Reporting by Russian journalists on Russian election meddling: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/12/russia-hackers-journalism-press-freedom-troll-factory/549422/?utm_source=feed

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

Let me know when lightsabers and the force become real and then we’ll see.

“That is why you fail.”

I don’t get it.

That is why you fail.

/jk 😉

Porkins4real said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.

Sure.

Must have missed where he said that.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1150916

You’re comparing two unlike comments about two different matters.

“An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.”

If you’re going to insist this is not at odds with stating Mark Hammill’s opinion on the force choke is the end of the discussion, I have nothing more to say to you. Hard to get more obviously contradictory than those two statements.

Those statements certainly are inconsistent. I focused on specifically what Matt.F was taking issue with in his comments. In one was an actor’s misunderstanding of a term and in another an actor’s view of his character. No reason to get a bee in your bonnet.

He was talking to me I think.

Right, sorry Matt.F. just posted the link. Feel free to explain the apparent contradiction in your two sentences!

DominicCobb said:

Holy shit guys, will the Mary Sue debate never end?

The ST is clearly more interested in Rey’s internal and emotional journey of self growth, than in her physical development of powers. Some people are okay with that, some aren’t. Mary Sue doesn’t have anything at all to do with it.

I think it lazy to point at Rey and exclaim, “Mary Sue!” as if that concludes the discussion. We should discuss it in substantive ways. That said, I think showing an emotional journey of self growth has not been well portrayed in these films. There have been moments here and there but not in a coherent way.

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.

Sure.

Must have missed where he said that.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1150916

You’re comparing two unlike comments about two different matters.

“An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.”

If you’re going to insist this is not at odds with stating Mark Hammill’s opinion on the force choke is the end of the discussion, I have nothing more to say to you. Hard to get more obviously contradictory than those two statements.

Those statements certainly are inconsistent. I focused on specifically what Matt.F was taking issue with in his comments. In one was an actor’s misunderstanding of a term and in another an actor’s view of his character. No reason to get a bee in your bonnet.

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.

Sure.

Must have missed where he said that.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1150916

You’re comparing two unlike comments about two different matters.

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.

Sure.

Must have missed where he said that.

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

Glad we have a shining beacon to show the way - I think disagreement is natural and healthy.

Porkins4real said:

Matt.F said:

Daisy Ridley herself has come out and stated that she believes the ‘Mary Sue’ tag is sexist and inappropriate.

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/21/star-wars-the-last-jedi-daisy-ridley-mary-sue-rey/

The odd thing is she doesn’t seem to know what Mary Sue means and she is wrong about there being a male equivalent.

An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all. From the article you quote is says

“The term refers to a character that has no flaws and can seemingly accomplish anything without any trouble”

Not sure what the issue is then???

From Wiki: The term “Mary Sue” comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story “A Trekkie’s Tale” published in her fanzine Menagerie #2. The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue (“the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old”), and satirized unrealistic characters in Star Trek fan fiction.

The coining of the term sounds like a testament to Paula Smith.

Bringing politics into discussions of Star Wars is generally a bad idea.

lovelikewinter said:

In The Last Jedi- Rey isn’t the main character: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is and Luke is a close second. Its that relationship and the fall out that fuels the plot.

I thought there was no fuel in this plot.

You may have a point that Ben Solo really is the protagonist. It felt like Rey was intended to be, but she hasn’t been a very engaging and relatable character. She’s likable enough, but her character development remains opaque. Maybe E9 will bring this full circle (like “Lost”) so her character makes sense.

moviefreakedmind said:

I don’t understand this idea that people’s votes for the president should be considered lesser than others purely because of the state they live in. This is the president of all fifty states and everybody that lives in each and every one of them. He should be elected popularly. So what if Trump wins the popular vote if you exclude California? To me that’s basically just saying, “If three million Hillary voters hadn’t had there votes counted, then Trump would’ve won the popular vote?” So what?

The president is supposed to lead the executive branch of a government that concerns itself with the interests of states as well as the People generally. States are central to our system of government. Our constitutional system was set up so that the federal government would be beholden to the states no less than the people. That is why Senators were originally elected by state legislatures. It is also why we have two senators for every state no matter the size.

I appreciate the impulse for every vote to carry equal weight for a position like the presidency. As a rule, I want the president to win the popular vote. But in order to have a president that appeals to the interests of each state, I think it an acceptable cost that once in awhile a president will win only the Electoral Vote.

It is fun to think of Americans as a single writhing mass of red and blue, but that’s not really the case. The laws in each state contribute to the culture and values of their people. People build a tolerance and affinity for the rules as they know them. I like the example of New Jersey forbidding drivers from pumping their own gas, ostensibly for safety reasons. West Virginia loves coal. Many states ban smoking in restaurants and bars while a number of states don’t. Iowa loves ethanol. Nevada loves gambling. Some states have very strict gun control law that contribute to anti-gun culture. In states where the laws make guns not so taboo, people are more tolerant of them. The laws of each state affect what the people of each state accepts as tolerable and desirable.

If you have a few highly populated states that have created a culture favorable/hostile to issue X, a candidate could appeal that that majority constituency, ignoring how important those interests are to certain states. I think we should mitigate against that tyranny of the majority. A way to do that is to compel presidential candidates to appeal to the People on a state-by-state basis.

The Last Jedi has inspired new debates about the nature of the Force and what it can do. I recommend reading the first two pages of this thread.