Mrebo

Zak fett said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

The single best line in the film (a lot of which has to do with delivery, as with most great lines) is from Kylo Ren:

“Blast that piece of junk
OUT OF THE SKY”

I liked the significance he put into that line also.

I think he knew that it was The Millennium Falcon

Clearly. Although we can never forget #rotjpigmen

(hashtag credit goes to Frink, I take no responsibility for hashtags)

DominicCobb said:

The single best line in the film (a lot of which has to do with delivery, as with most great lines) is from Kylo Ren:

“Blast that piece of junk
OUT OF THE SKY”

I liked the significance he put into that line also.

Speaking of vacuums, I still didn’t see a problem with the Leia scene the second time around.

Moving on: I think one of my favorite quotes from TLJ is, “Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.”

I also liked Yoda’s page turner line.

What are yours?

Unhealthy news obsession?

I think we better just heed Wook’s friendly suggestion. Not worry about what side has more firepower or something.

ExNihilo said:

I can’t believe I read the whole thing.
Now I have indigestion.

And I have so much indigestion that I hit submit before I put in my first comment on this board in years.

And I had to edit it.

And I’m not sure how I feel about the film. Even after 3 viewings. Even after trying to digest the various points of view in this thread and elsewhere.

Admiral Motti had a similar issue.

I’ve seen it twice and I share your confusion. I’m pretty down on the movie and yet I enjoyed it - even more the second time. Contrary to Wook’s good advice do I need to pay to see it a third time? Maybe. There’s a fundamental level of discomfort that is more substantial than mere nostalgia.

chyron8472 said:

If one were to explore the argument that Rey is instantly OP, yet untrained, and in being so poops on the concepts that Yoda was trying to teach Luke in ESB, I can see that. But I can also see a “The Force works in mysterious ways” argument. For myself, it doesn’t bother me for her to be untrained. It’s odd, certainly, but I wouldn’t call it “ruinous to the concept of The Force” or what have you.

Really, I would just like to know why she is so powerful, and hope it is explored or explained at some point.

Mrebo said:

chyron8472 said:

Getting back to my original point, but without the deviation into sexism…

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

You have to look at the film holistically to understand.

To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations?

Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.

Of course not, that would be silly. If I’m not explaining it well check out the David Stewart videos.

I’m just starting to watch his TLJ analysis, and he immediately accuses TLJ and Rian Johnson of deliberately attacking expectations of the fans.

I do not agree with that. Maybe if the problem is it doesn’t meet one’s expectations, then the solution should be to curb one’s expectations. David Stewart says that because it is Episode 8, that expectations are inherent and necessary, and that TLJ is therefore hate mail for those expectations.

I could not disagree more. And at the end of the day, we only have control over our own responses to things. If you want to like it, it does actually fit, and in a way that doesn’t make everything else suck. It doesn’t have to be a meta-commentary if you don’t make it a meta-commentary. Rian is not telling OUT purists to go f*ck themselves. If one wants to make it about that, then they’re going to, I guess. But it doesn’t have to be about that, and Rian didn’t say that it was.

If people want to enjoy it for the film that it is, and let Star Wars be Star Wars, in and of itself and its own universe, without injecting real world socio-culturally-political nonsense into it, then they can. And I would say, they should.

If there is any suggestion of sexism on my part, you are gravely mistaken.

No, not yours. Mine. I was getting back to arguing against what David Stewart said and omitted the part that derailed conversation from it. I was omitting reference to (what I believe to be) his sexism, not yours.

If one were to explore the argument, I would agree with you. And while she is inordinately powerful and seemingly impervious to dark side influences, she is lost and scared and doesn’t really know what she’s doing. That is an interesting state of affairs. It’s the fact that we have no idea why she’s so powerful that many people (including Stewart) perceive a lazy archetypal reason for it. That’s the argument we would have on the matter. So I think we would basically agree.

chyron8472 said:

Getting back to my original point, but without the deviation into sexism…

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

You have to look at the film holistically to understand.

To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations?

Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.

Of course not, that would be silly. If I’m not explaining it well check out the David Stewart videos.

I’m just starting to watch his TLJ analysis, and he immediately accuses TLJ and Rian Johnson of deliberately attacking expectations of the fans.

I do not agree with that. Maybe if the problem is it doesn’t meet one’s expectations, then the solution should be to curb one’s expectations. David Stewart says that because it is Episode 8, that expectations are inherent and necessary, and that TLJ is therefore hate mail for those expectations.

I could not disagree more. And at the end of the day, we only have control over our own responses to things. If you want to like it, it does actually fit, and in a way that doesn’t make everything else suck. It doesn’t have to be a meta-commentary if you don’t make it a meta-commentary. Rian is not telling OUT purists to go f*ck themselves. If one wants to make it about that, then they’re going to, I guess. But it doesn’t have to be about that, and Rian didn’t say that it was.

If people want to enjoy it for the film that it is, and let Star Wars be Star Wars, in and of itself and its own universe, without injecting real world socio-culturally-political nonsense into it, then they can. And I would say, they should.

If there is any suggestion of sexism on my part, you are gravely mistaken.

I’m not triggered by it. I dont tie it to nonsense gender arguments. If it’s such a distraction for you, I will forbear using the literary term in this thread. The capital letter consensus is poor substitute for discussing anything.

I think we can have a good argument about whether Rey is a Mary Sue and whether that is a bad thing. I tend to think she doesn’t really fit the bill. I think convincing people of that is far more worthwhile than shutting them out for using the word.

SilverWook said:

Star Wars was never that original to begin with. George wanted to make a Flash Gordon movie, but somebody already had the rights.
When I first saw Snoke’s rumpus room, I was expecting Ming and General Klytus to be there! 😛

There is much written that nothing is truly original and that that is a good thing!

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

You see how a single term shuts down your ability to appreciate what he’s saying?

To some extent we do make our own reality, which I think is well illustrated by your reaction to what is a term of literary criticism.

But it is not a term of literary criticism. It’s a way to basically say that OP women are reverse-sexist or have a misandrist agenda or whatever. Let Rey be Rey. If she’s OP for inexplicable reasons, explore that concept, but don’t attach the fact that she’s female to it. Her being female has nothing at all to do with anything, but is at the very core of where the term “Mary Sue” comes from.

The term “Mary Sue” came from the work of a female author who created a character with that name to criticize that archetype. You’re objecting to how you perceive some people seem to mis/use the term.

You see how a single term shuts down your ability to appreciate what he’s saying?

To some extent we do make our own reality, which I think is well illustrated by your reaction to what is a term of literary criticism. I understand objecting that the term is overused or misused, but that’s an argument related to specific usages.

For some this is just a fun popcorn movie. For some it explores deep themes. If it’s all about seeing whatever we want, good or bad, well of course we can do that.

But then so many disagreements are rooted in just wanting to see the film as we want to see it. This relativism appeals to some more than others.

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

It’s been said many times, many ways.

Merry Christmas, to you.

You left out, “ya filthy animal.” And a Happy New Year to you!

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

You have to look at the film holistically to understand.

To understand what? That the plot and character developments didn’t match percieved expectations?

Just because it doesn’t, that doesn’t make it bad nor does it mean hardcore Star Wars fans were intentionally jerked around.

Of course not, that would be silly. If I’m not explaining it well check out the David Stewart videos. Maybe you just won’t see it. And that’s far less interesting than you understanding but disagreeing with the argument.

chyron8472 said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

If part of these movies is about jerking fans around (which people on both sides seem to agree on)

What makes you think that’s true at all?

It is in the sense that there are plot twists…

• You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.
• You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.
• You think Leia is dead but she’s not.
• You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.
• You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker after you forgot he was even there.
• You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.
• You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.
• You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.
• You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

BUT that is to say only if the use of the phrase “jerking fans around” means unexpected twists for the sake of interesting storytelling, rather than it being a nicer way of saying “dicking fans over.” If it means the latter, then no, there’s no reason to assume that’s true.

Twists and surprises are part of good story telling. That doesn’t mean every twist or surprise is good storytelling. And I wish I were saying that some twists just weren’t enjoyable. You have to look at the film holistically to understand.

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

If part of these movies is about jerking fans around (which people on both sides seem to agree on)

What makes you think that’s true at all?

This has been discussed in these pages and across the internet. It’s how the movies are playing against fan expectations, while deliberately creating an impression in line with those expectations; it’s how they’re a commentary on Star Wars itself, part of what people mean when they discuss it being “meta”. I think Mithrandir’s post better describes what I’m talking about. On YouTube, David Stewart intelligently discusses it. It’s been said many times, many ways.

So historical! Monument honoring black Confederate soldiers

What are your thoughts on the NYT’s obituary for Monson?

At this point I hope she does end up having important parents. I hope Snoke’s identity ends up being important. If part of these movies is about jerking fans around (which people on both sides seem to agree on) it would be the coup de grace. Or maybe it wouldn’t change anything. I picture President Snow at the end of Hunger Games, mirthful at his final victory.

Mithrandir said:

NFBisms said:
It isn’t so different from realizing that his failure doesn’t define him. And that you can always come back from it.

Whether or not another director challenges that, of course they can. But TLJ’s reading fits with the OT pretty well.

You can always come back from it, and you can always fall. The whole point of the movie is that nothing defines you ever, because it stips off Life (or the force) from any teleologic significance. It works both on screen and as a meta-commentary on the fans.

Point is that from that point of view, call it somewhat nihillistic, you can always claim pertinance to a certain structure if it fits right. Precisely because it is a nihillistic point of view.

But even if the message applies to the OT it counterdicts its explicit teleology.

Which on the other hand is the only thing it could do conceeding that given how VI ends, otherwise there would be no room for VII as it was designed.

It’s a very complex movie whose analysis goes far beyond the realm of the like/don’t like simplification. I personally enjoyed it despite its implicances (which I clearly don’t share) and it’s easily and by far the most intellectualizing movie of the saga, an author film hiding beneath the visual clichès of a pop culture trademark.

I think I agree with you, but my understanding of the language of philosophy is about as good as my Spanish. The nihilistic point seems a bit to unpack but I think we see the other points made by critics of the movie more commonly - not that they have any more impact when phrased differently!

This past year I did one of those DNA tests to see what it said about my ancestry. I was surprised by what it said about half of my ancestry. Then I clicked a link to show “DNA matches” and was greeted at the top of the page with “[Luke], [-----] is your father.”

I didn’t know the name. I didn’t know the site could even tell me such a thing.

One time, a few years ago, I met a guy who I believed to be my father. So there are no hurt feelings for me on that point.

I confirmed the DNA result with my mother - who long thought it possible (you don’t say!). But he had no knowledge of me, given the circumstances. I could see he later married and has a family of his own.

I messaged him on the site, knowing he could also see the DNA match on his page if he looked. I said I know it must be a shock for him and I would leave it up to him what to do next. I sort of expected/hoped for a response but nothing after more than 6 months.

Even though he did nothing wrong, having a son show up out of nowhere could be disruptive. I want to be sensitive to his situation but I want to know about him, the family he came from. I’m afraid of total rejection. I get tempted to contact him again and then I don’t know what to write.

Any ideas?

I usually stay away from talking about personal issues. Something has been on my mind awhile and I don’t know how to handle it. That is the genesis for this thread and I hope it is useful as you face choices and need some independent advice.

Gaffer Tape said:
…for the fans who pointlessly obsessed over something…

Ah, but the money they make off fans’ pointless obsessions! We’ll know the planet Snoke was born on, his mother’s maiden name, and the make of his first ship before the year is out.