Mrebo

Yes.

Hey, needed to make something out of an accidental post.

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

.

^ Best point I ever made.

moviefreakedmind said:

Liberals and Democrats are not hostile to religion and Christianity in particular. Secularism is not hostile to people’s personal beliefs. Also, since so many Republicans were willing to vote for Trump, that shows that they’re pretty willing to throw their traditional Christian morals into the dumpster when their candidate is the complete antithesis of their supposed values. I’m not aware of anyone denying candidates their right to subscribe to whatever religion they want. People vote against candidates based on their religiosity, but that’s everyone’s right and is completely different. As for the environment, disagreeing that mankind is having an adverse effect on our planet that will irreversibly damage it and our own living conditions if we don’t address it immediately is improper because it’s the wrong position. Climate change denial is objectively untrue. It’s patently false. I see no reason to debate it. It’s like debating whether or not setting your own hair on fire would damage your scalp.

It is hostility to religion that generates the claim that conservatives are trying to establish biblical rule.

As for the environment, there is valid disagreement on what is happening and what the solutions should be. It’s one thing to say mankind is having an effect on the planet, and saying every measured change is due to mankind and it’s going to kill us in short order.

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Puggo, liberals and the Democratic Party have become hostile to religion, traditional Christianity in particular. And liberals are demagogic on the environment, which nowadays mostly refers to global warming. And so the false idea tha conservatives are theocrats who don’t care about the environment exists.

If a person’s moral and ethical views are based in religion I see nothing wrong with that. And we do expect a leader to carry their morals and ethics into the job. That’s all a far cry from governing our country by the dictates of the Bible. If one disagrees with certain moral and ethical view, that’s fine. But they are not illegitimate just because they’re religious. The First Amendment imposes certain limitations but was never meant to purge religion in the way some advocate.

On the environment too we find mere disagreement painted as improper.

To CatBus’s point, people on both sides have good reason to feel underwhelmed by their respective parties.

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

Valheru_84 said:

Also I have no problem with the movie having a Chinese character if that character is required for the story and the role is specifically written as having a Chinese or Star Wars equivalent background or more importantly, the best actor for the role just happens to be Chinese. But Rose’s character very much feels like she’s only there partly to put an extra tick in the box of “actor diversity” and that’s a slight to the actress herself who does a good job even if I find the character pointless and lacking in many aspects. It also makes me wonder alongside a number of other recent examples (that are not connected with SW) whether there is something to the talk about an increase in China’s influence on Hollywood due to the amount of money they are investing into it (and therefore a need to appease that demographic)…though in that case, one would have expected Matt Damon’s character in ‘The Great Wall’ to be cast with a Chinese actor, though I’m also sure the choice of Matt Damon was more in line with audience pull than authentic characters for a movie set in China.

This would all be a great point if she wasn’t born in America to Vietnamese parents.

Actually it wouldn’t be a great point, in fact it’s ridiculous, but you somehow managed to make it worse.

This aside, they were not casting specifically for an Asian actress.

Yeah they weren’t, but their Chinese overlords demanded it.

RJ did another twist!

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

Valheru_84 said:

Also I have no problem with the movie having a Chinese character if that character is required for the story and the role is specifically written as having a Chinese or Star Wars equivalent background or more importantly, the best actor for the role just happens to be Chinese. But Rose’s character very much feels like she’s only there partly to put an extra tick in the box of “actor diversity” and that’s a slight to the actress herself who does a good job even if I find the character pointless and lacking in many aspects. It also makes me wonder alongside a number of other recent examples (that are not connected with SW) whether there is something to the talk about an increase in China’s influence on Hollywood due to the amount of money they are investing into it (and therefore a need to appease that demographic)…though in that case, one would have expected Matt Damon’s character in ‘The Great Wall’ to be cast with a Chinese actor, though I’m also sure the choice of Matt Damon was more in line with audience pull than authentic characters for a movie set in China.

This would all be a great point if she wasn’t born in America to Vietnamese parents.

Actually it wouldn’t be a great point, in fact it’s ridiculous, but you somehow managed to make it worse.

This aside, they were not casting specifically for an Asian actress.

Then how do you explain them casting a second Vietnamese actress to be Rose’s sister? Coincidence, I think not!

😛

I’ll keep pining away for a true conservative president.

Just to note, Val, the actress is Vietnamese.

TV’s Frink said:

Hardcore Legend said:

TV’s Frink said:

I play Galaxy of Heroes, and naturally they are adding new TLJ characters to the game. Rose is apparently coming soon, and people are pissed if the official forum is any guide. People are actually saying she’s worse than Jar Jar.

smh

I’ve been critical of this film but I actually liked the subplot of her and Finn (even if it wasn’t really necessary).

People are weird.

No kidding. #rotjnappingpigmenneverforget

Hey, I generally liked the subplot too. I was never too eager to get back to the slow speed chase. Although that bubble lady with the revealing dress was too much.

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

The most annoying character was that porg with the quivering lip who was trying to ruin Chewie’s dinner.

How would you react if someone ate your brother?

Which brother?

The best and/or tastiest one.

I’d probably stay far away. If I were a bird, I might beg for scraps…wait a minute, that is what the porg was doing!

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

The most annoying character was that porg with the quivering lip who was trying to ruin Chewie’s dinner.

How would you react if someone ate your brother?

Which brother?

ExNihilo said:

Mrebo said:

ExNihilo said:

Mrebo said:

The most annoying character was that porg with the quivering lip who was trying to ruin Chewie’s dinner.

At least no one said poodoo

Nothing wrong with poodoo, long as one uses it correctly!

And who had besides Jabba?

Probably nobody!

ExNihilo said:

Mrebo said:

The most annoying character was that porg with the quivering lip who was trying to ruin Chewie’s dinner.

At least no one said poodoo

Nothing wrong with poodoo, long as one uses it correctly!

The most annoying character was that porg with the quivering lip who was trying to ruin Chewie’s dinner.

NFBisms said:

This probably doesn’t mean anything but a lot of my friends were excited about the Asian representation lol.

I liked Rose, and what she brought to the story, but that’s about it. I don’t think every new character has to become a scene stealer or favorite to have their existence justified. She was fine. I don’t think there was anything offensive or bad about her, but there wasn’t anything too special either.

Agree with you.

dahmage said:

Mielr said:

dahmage said:

Lando was just a cool guy who ran a city and sold out our friends.

Yeah, and that’s a pretty damn important part of the plot!

I know, the point I am trying to make is that he has the exact plot enabling role as Rose (see Dom’s posts). Ok not exact, as Rose probably has even more plot enablement.

So considering that a tie between Rose and Lando, I will use my personal preference to pick Rose as more interesting. Less cool probably though, I am sure most of us thought Lando was a pretty hep cat. (Am I saying that right?)

In the politics thread I posted a link to a book that might help you.

Characters are nothing more than plot enablers really.

Mielr said:

dahmage said:

Lando was just a cool guy who ran a city and sold out our friends.

Yeah, and that’s a pretty damn important part of the plot! 😄

Also, he owned the Millenium Falcon, lost it to Han, who used it to save Luke, allowing the destruction of the first Death Star, etc.

So Lando is the most important and interesting character ever.

dahmage said:

Comparing her to Lando was to make a point.

I did say that she is only barely better than Lando if you recall.

I recall. I read it even!

I understand appreciating what she stood for and all that. Of course she didn’t do nothing. But the impact she had was indirect with the exception of saving Finn, which is what people mean about her not having a purpose as a character (some of those people wanted Finn to die). I don’t begrudge your appreciation of her at all.

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mielr said:

dahmage said:

Rose is a better character than Lando was. Barely. But still.

Seriously? Lando was a pretty pivotal character and really set all the events in motion for the 2nd half of the movie. He partnered with Vader to trap Luke and in the process got Han nearly killed and shipped off to Jabba (remember?)

No Lando: no cloud city, no luke/vader duel (no “I am your father”), no carbonite, no Jabba, no reason for rotj basically.

What exactly did Rose do that was so important (besides setting free horse-llama things and preventing Finn from committing an act of selflessness)?

Most of the movie doesn’t exist without Rose.

Like I said, I thought her character was fine. But I don’t understand what you mean.

Well if you start at the very beginning. Without Rose being there to stop Finn, who would have taken off with the beacon and Rey would have had a hell of a time finding the resistance again…

And how is she a better character than Lando? (I’m still not sure what that means.)