Mrebo

Perhaps we don’t see the Council much, or at all. We can hear about it and the dictates it hands down and see how various Jedi react.

In some religions there are cloistered orders (like nuns who live in convents and monks who live in monasteries) and there are those who choose to live non-cloistered lives (a nun can live on her own like any other person, except she’s a nun). Yoda could be the head of his [monastery]. And we could see various other Jedi without specifying how they live. The Jedi [pope]/Council could be constitute an adversary, many Jedi feeling compelled to follow what the Council says even if they disagree and we can see the disagreements and see what Jedis rebel.

If, as has been suggested, Poe believed that the attempted attack on the gun was going to fail and he called off the attack for that reason, that looks less like a character arc for Poe than a practical decision, just as he made in successfully attacking the Dreadnought.

If Poe had not destroyed the dreadnought, would its guns have been successfully used to destroy the rebel ships during the later pursuit, or alternatively the Crait base?

Bingowings said:

Mrebo said:

Several years ago I was in a bad place. My work situation improved and that helped a lot. The mental part takes work even then. If it means doing something radical (I moved to a city where I only knew one person and took a low level job) or finding professional advice, it’s worth it if you are in a better place three years from now.

This is the situation I find myself in. I’m moving to Glasgow where I don’t know anyone really well and it’s the first time in my life I’m moving to A) a big city and B) a place I haven’t lived before in on my own. So there are layers of anxiety there but also the potential for a new start.

Morning, Bingo. I hope it’s the new start you need. Cutting old ties can allow for new growth. It’s hard enough to break my own bad habits without worrying about how others are influencing me.

Several years ago I was in a bad place. My work situation improved and that helped a lot. The mental part takes work even then. If it means doing something radical (I moved to a city where I only knew one person and took a low level job) or finding professional advice, it’s worth it if you are in a better place three years from now.

Rey holds the lightsaber toward Luke who looks at her with great emotion.

“Who are you?” Luke asks with astonishment.

“My name is Rey. Leia wanted me to find you…and I wanted to find you.”

Luke is startled. “How did you find me?”

“We found a map, part of it in an old droid.”

“R2?” Luke asks, processing this information.

Rey nods, “and here is your lightsaber.”

Luke takes the weapon, looks at his skeletal robotic hand and back at the weapon.

“You have come to take me away from here?” Luke asks.

“If you will leave, yes.” Rey answers.

“If? If I want to leave?” Luke asks. Luke looks to the sea, the rocks, the small pesky birds. Rey can’t tell if Luke is laughing or crying.

Luke recovers. “Come with me. Not a moment out of my sight. I need to gather my belongings.”

Luke keeps an eye on Rey as they trek to his small stone hut. Inside there is little of note, ragged clothes, some ancient books, stone carvings and drawings. Luke packs the books into a satchel and looks around the hut as if for the last time. “Let’s go, Rey.”

~-~-~-~

Luke’s mouth is agape looking at the Falcon. “Han let you take his ship?”

Before Rey can answer, Chewie exits the ramp and looks up to see Luke. Their eyes meet and Luke holds back tears as the truth hits him. Luke goes to his old friend and hugs him. “I’m so sorry. How did it happen?”

Chewie barks mournfully and Luke’s countenance darkens.

“Ben? He- I can’t believe he would do that. He was….I need to see Leia.”

Chewie, Luke, and Rey quickly board the ship and leave the planet.

~-~-~-~

The Resistance Fleet is under attack by First Order ships. “How did they find us?” Leia demands.

“I can’t fathom it, Ma’am,” responds a command officer. “We don’t have the firepower to win this battle.”

“Prepare all ships to make another jump. I will transmit the jump location personally to the captains of the other ships.”

Leia taps in the coded transmission and in a moment the Resistance fleet jumps to hyperspace and after a brief span of time reenters normal space.

In short order the First Order ships are upon them again.

“Impossible!” yells Admiral Ackbar.

Leia looks angrily at the ships. “They are tracking us through hyperspace. We have no choice but to fight.

~-~-~-~

On board the Falcon, Luke is seated next to R2. “I missed you too, but you wouldn’t have enjoyed being on the island. And you had 3PO to think about.”

R2 whistles doubtfully.

Luke smiles and works at cleaning the droid, finding comfort in the task.

Rey appears confused by the attention Luke pays to the droid. “Master Skywalker, the reason I volunteered to find you is to learn about the Force.”

Luke turns his attention from R2 to Rey. “There are many texts that speak of the Force, you don’t need me.”

Rey swallows hard. “There are things I can do, things I have seen and know…and I don’t know why.”

“Tell me what you have seen,” Luke says with intense interest.

The ship is rocked as if by laser fire. Chewie roars from the cockpit. Rey and Luke run down the corridor.

Looking out from the cockpit they are in the midst of a great battle. A looming dreadnought and several Star Destroyers are exchanging fire with Resistance ships.

Squadrons of X-Wings speed past the Falcon toward the First Order ships.

“Get to the command ship,” Luke points at the biggest Resistance ship, the Raddus.

The Millenium Falcon docks with the Raddus and Luke is the first down the ramp where Leia is waiting. They embrace.

“Luke, where have you been?” Leia asks, looking at him intently.

“Ben.” Luke answers. “Ben stranded me, where nobody, not even his Master Snoke could find me. He did it to protect me.”

“Ben killed Han,” Leia responds.

Luke nods, “I can still save him, Leia.”

Leia smiles sadly, but doesn’t answer.

~-~-~-~

In the TLJ Spoiler thread, Mithrandir made some great points about how TFA set things up that really limited how to handle certain matters like, foremost for many, the characterization of Luke. Why was Luke on that island? To forsake the world? If so, why? What reason would feel compelling and within character? If there was a deep and meaningful reason to be on the island, how does that outweigh all else?

The dark side temptation is one possible solution I didn’t consider. We would still want to know why and how he is being tempted. We might find that Snoke is so powerful he is driving Luke to madness, having planted a seed of doubt in his mind, and not that Luke is actually being threatened to be consumed by hatred and anger within himself.

In my own effort to respond to the challenge of Mithrandir’s argument, I have come up with another possibility. I haven’t offered a complete outline of the film as you have but rather focused on setting up Luke’s part in this story. The story would start much like actual TLJ, but with more Resistance ships and one fewer joke…

Creox said:

Mrebo said:

Creox said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

My take on that scene was that Finn was going to die before destroying the weapon…his speeder was falling apart rapidly and the beam was already brightening…signifying it was already too late.

I think Rian was showing us that Finn was ready to die for the cause…he had become “rebel scum” instead of just “scum”.

As a fictional movie with a nonsense weapon like the Starkiller, Finn could have lived or died. I read the scene that Finn was more brave and selfless than stupid, so I lean toward the possibility of living. In the end, it’s an academic obsessive fan debate anyway.

Fair enough…but obsessive (a wee bit) appears to be what this site is all about…amiright? 😉

Handman said:

My father asked if I was gay at least twice.

If it’s any consolation, literally the same thing happened to me with the person I thought was my father.

Handman said:

If anyone told me I’d be where I am today three years ago, I’d have never believed you. Or I’d have tried to do better.

I’m sick of having good days and bad days. The good days are incredible. The bad days are devastating. I’m not unintelligent. I’m not sure how I got here.

Are you in a better place now or worse compared to three years ago?

I think I know what you mean about good and bad days.

Mielr said:

LuckyGungan2001 said:

Michael Ward said:

Mrebo said:

Remind me of the 3PO moments?

Seems like one was about the time that he was saying mutiny was against his programming, but I don’t remember the line. They’re were a couple of others. One might have been when Finn and Poe and Rose were discussing their plan. They were not hilarious, but mildly amusing and not cringe worthy like most. The audience laughed out loud at them which I think made me enjoy them more than if I’d been by myself. Most of the other jokes landed with a thud with the audience when I saw it.

Funny how everyone who dislikes the movie seems to have gone to a showing where the jokes weren’t laughed at. All the jokes (even the dumb ones) were huge hits with the audience both times I saw it.

I didn’t like the movie, but the one and only time I saw it the jokes were laughed at. 😕

The second time I saw it there were about 5 people in the theater. I don’t recall hearing laughter, but maybe they just weren’t very loud.

TV’s Frink said:

Why is anyone the way they are?

Why are you the way you are HL?

Speaking of Lady Gaga, she would have been a good addition to the Canto Bight casino.

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

The worst part of TLJ is the characters disrespecting 3PO. This is the worst part because never before have the characters in a Star Wars movie disrespected 3PO or told him to shut up.

Why are you the way you are?

I resist the sarcastic impulse so much it hurts and sometimes I just can’t help it. So I can’t really fault Dominic, I get it. I think he mostly meant it in good humor anyway.

So, even though we disagree, this song goes out to Dominic.

DominicCobb said:

The worst part of TLJ is the characters disrespecting 3PO. This is the worst part because never before have the characters in a Star Wars movie disrespected 3PO or told him to shut up.

Canto Bight would have been totally justified if, at the end, when Rose takes the saddle off the fathier, it had turned to her and said, “Rose, I am your fathier.”

It would have been like E.T. meets ESB, very touching and funny.

LuckyGungan2001 said:

Michael Ward said:

Mrebo said:

Remind me of the 3PO moments?

Seems like one was about the time that he was saying mutiny was against his programming, but I don’t remember the line. They’re were a couple of others. One might have been when Finn and Poe and Rose were discussing their plan. They were not hilarious, but mildly amusing and not cringe worthy like most. The audience laughed out loud at them which I think made me enjoy them more than if I’d been by myself. Most of the other jokes landed with a thud with the audience when I saw it.

Funny how everyone who dislikes the movie seems to have gone to a showing where the jokes weren’t laughed at. All the jokes (even the dumb ones) were huge hits with the audience both times I saw it.

Was this in St. Olaf, Minnesota, by any chance?

This is a scene I would have laughed at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7I0xJNIxiE

Michael Ward said:

Mrebo said:

Remind me of the 3PO moments?

Seems like one was about the time that he was saying mutiny was against his programming, but I don’t remember the line. They’re were a couple of others. One might have been when Finn and Poe and Rose were discussing their plan. They were not hilarious, but mildly amusing and not cringe worthy like most. The audience laughed out loud at them which I think made me enjoy them more than if I’d been by myself. Most of the other jokes landed with a thud with the audience when I saw it.

That’s right, now I remember. I agree about the humor. Watched ANH tonight, appreciating the understated and well-incorporated humor.

The “Hard Rules” say:

All members are subject to these rules in all sections of the forum. The General Chat/Off Topic section is once again moderated, so all rules below apply to that section as well.

Rule #1 of the “Hard Rules” says:

Stay on topic. (Determined in part by the OP. See General Guideline #3 below for details.)

General Guideline #3 says:

The OP is considered the thread owner and sets the topic and tone for a thread. The mods will defer to the OP’s preference in determining whether posts veer too far off topic.

So whether it is okay or not, you have been endowed with great power.

Michael Ward said:

Hello, I’m new here, and as much as I enjoy other peoples opinions, 164 pages of comments is just to much to catch up on! So I’ll just add my two cents.

The Luke/Rey/Kylo storyline, what I’ll call the “A” plot, had its moments. I thought it was a lot like The Force Awakens in that though it was often kind of stupid, it was still enjoyable.

The “B” plot with everyone else was terrible. This plot line was dumb. The characters were dumb (I really can’t get over the fact that Poe, Finn, and Rose got almost everyone killed!) The comedy was dumb except for a few good 3PO moments. But worst of all, I was bored most of time.

Everything I enjoyed was in the “A” plot, and even there I was disappointed by Luke’s character.

I put this one in 7th place out of 9 for the whole franchise.

Remind me of the 3PO moments?

Creox said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

My take on that scene was that Finn was going to die before destroying the weapon…his speeder was falling apart rapidly and the beam was already brightening…signifying it was already too late.

I think Rian was showing us that Finn was ready to die for the cause…he had become “rebel scum” instead of just “scum”.

As a fictional movie with a nonsense weapon like the Starkiller, Finn could have lived or died. I read the scene that Finn was more brave and selfless than stupid, so I lean toward the possibility of living. In the end, it’s an academic obsessive fan debate anyway.

Collipso said:

I think in the end we all agreed Luke was choking them?

I’m sticking to “no,” because whatchya gonna do about it? 😛

Michael Ward said:

Hello, Collipso.

I did read a few dozen. It hadn’t got toxic at that point. Glad I quit while I was ahead.

There was even a spirited debate about Gamorrean Guards in ROTJ. Sometimes things get a little out of hand.

Anchorhead said:

Mrebo said:
…I’m not sure how much sense that makes either: let’s fly out on barely functional crafts with limited maneuverability to a bunch of AT-ATs and a big gun and hope it doesn’t fire until we are really close so we can shoot at it.

To quote Antiope in Wonder Woman “You expect the battle to be fair! A battle will never be fair!”

The rebels were using the ships they had left. It was either that or sit in the entrance to the cave, put a marshmallow on a stick, and yell incoming!

If they could have gone out on a Star Destroyer and blown a FO-sized hole in the ground, I suspect they would have.

Previously, Dominic assured us that the FO would have found a way in if Finn had destroyed the gun. Holding to that idea, it doesn’t make very much sense to expend lives and time delaying the FO’s entry instead of finding a way out. I know they were hoping allies would show up - really fast and with lots of firepower - so the question is how much longer would it take to destroy the door without the cannon.

This isn’t the kind of issue really important to me, but on reflection this was a bit like grabbing a butterknife to confront an armed burglar trying to break your door. Granted you might prefer to use a bazooka, but that’s neither here nor there.

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

The only open hostility towards religion I see comes from Republicans against Muslims.

I’ve seen quite a bit of left wing hostility towards organized religion, so it exists, especially in academia.

I meant elected officials.

An obvious and recent example was Senator Feinstein’s questioning of Amy Coney Barrett. You can find apologists for Feinstein’s inappropriate questions, but I guarantee Democrats would burst if a Republican asked a comparable question of a Muslim.

Valheru_84 said:

Current discussions aside, I think this is a fantastic video on why many people can’t accept what they did to Luke’s character in TLJ:

https://youtu.be/c4tTSB_yH8k

That is a pretty good exegesis.

I think it says something that basic plot points are unclear, like how were they going to destroy the gun. Get really close and shoot it is one possibility. But then I’m not sure how much sense that makes either: let’s fly out on barely functional crafts with limited maneuverability to a bunch of AT-ATs and a big gun and hope it doesn’t fire until we are really close so we can shoot at it. (inb4: it was just like the Death Star trench)

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

I still feel like we’re on different pages here.

I don’t see how you can talk about Finn destroying the ram or not without talking about Poe and his arc. When Poe calls off the attack, it’s because he’s wiser now and doesn’t think it’s worth it. From there you can assume that either means a) crashing into the ram won’t destroy it, or b) even if the ram is destroyed it’s not worth the loss of the rest of the skimmer pilots.

You offer alternative ways the scene could have gone, but that’s a different discussion entirely (to which I would argue different things, like this is the second movie in the trilogy and Finn has more to grow beyond sacrificing himself for a cause, and that it makes more sense narratively to have Rose save him than Poe).

You said, “When Finn gets into kamikaze mode, we see the ram start to tear his skimmer apart. It’s clear he won’t even make it, let alone blow the whole thing up.”

It’s not at all clear. We are supposed to believe it is possible. That’s what makes it heroic. I think Finn should already have disintegrated given what the laser was doing to the door. But the movie had other ideas and allowed him to get closer and closer with little damage. Also, Finn seems to have a good handle on Imperial weaponry and technology. So it was at least possible - whatever thoughts Poe was having. And it was the idea that Finn could have destroyed it that made Rose’s action meaningful too. Otherwise she would have just been stopping him from being foolish, not because love.

dahmage said:

Ok. Just trying to see if there is any correlation between number of viewings and impression of that scene. I hope that didn’t seem like a rude question.

I didn’t have very strong feelings on the direction of that scene the first time. I didn’t like that it seemed like they were going to kill him off and I thought that Rose’s reason for stopping him was lame. On balance, I prefer that he survived. The second time around I didn’t have the annoyance of “oh…they’re really going to kill him,” and then “just kidding!”