MTHaslett

Possessed said:

MTHaslett said:

But Possessed, I thought you were keeping the Chewie capture for after Luke arrived?

 

Uhm... why would I do that?  That doesn't make any sense at all it's not even like that in the original...

Uhm... The droids come as Luke's gift to Jabba.  How do they get there with his message if they are not with Luke?

Edit: For that matter, how would R2 get there if he's still on Degobah waiting for Luke to talk to Ben?

Possessed: "What I don't like about it is it makes it seem like luke is waiting around on degobah instead of hurrying to help his friend."

***

If your edit goes like this:

Vader on DS2/Luke and Yoda/Jabba's castle introduced and Chewbacca dragged in by a bounty hunter/Luke and Ben

Then the effect is that Chewbacca's capture seems totally ligitimate. It's clearly not part of Luke's plan, at any rate.  It's not like he's waiting around on Degobah knowing that Chewbacca and Leia are launching a doomed plan. Stuff is happening that Luke is unaware of.

It also will be interesting to see Luke learning that Leia is his sister right before we learn the bounty hunter is Leia. That's another example of the kind of thematic idea that's in ROTJ, but never made use of.

This new order of scenes has so much dramatic thrust now that Luke knows up front that he has to face Vader, that he's in danger of falling under the Emperor's power and that Leia's his sister.  Everything else has more weight and cohesion. Everything is part of Luke's story this way instead of having a 25 minute short film about Tatooine before the main story actually begins.

Well I'm confused. If Vader, Yoda, Chewie, Ben, Leia captured, Threepio/R2 walk up, etc. is on the table... then HELL YEAH!

But I thought Possessed said he wasn't moving the Chewie scene.

I miss something?

Going "Vader on DS2"/"Yoda and Luke"/Vader and Emperor on DS2"/"Ben and Luke" would definitely feel weird to me.

But playing out the entire sequence on Degobah takes soooo long that I think it works going "Vader on DS2"/"Luke on Degobah, finishing training, seeing Yoda die, learning for sure that Vader is his father and that he has a sister and that sister is Leia"/"Vader and the Emperor on DS2"

Remember the impact of all that happens on Degobah-- it's massive.

Having the audience just set it all aside while we go off to Tatooine is not necessarily giving them what they want.

After I find out about Vader for certain, it's a real treat to see him again welcoming the Emperor. Let it play out for you once maybe?  

But Possessed, I thought you were keeping the Chewie capture for after Luke arrived?

Bingowings said:

I'd be interested to see how that pans out but my instincts would point to putting the second Death Star scene right after Han and Co leaving Tatooine.

Jabba is the is is just the starter and the Emperor is the main course.

If you mix the two up the whole thing becomes tapas.

The Emperor arriving is mentioned in the briefing so the two scenes are linked.

"Linked" by repeating the same information, though. That's a reason to NOT put them near each other, they make each other redundant. 

I agree with your motives, but putting the Emperor up front actually HELPS keep the Jabba material separate from the Emperor story. It builds the Emperor story to a boil that will still have heat after the Jabba cul de sac is finished.

It's the original release order of things that mixes everything up-- first we see DS2, then we see Jabba, then we see DS2/Emperor, then we see Yoda, then we see the Rebel Plan... that's what I'd call 'tapas'.

Try it at home by flicking through the scenes. This is a chance to actually connect story tissues to give them the oomph they were supposed to have.  Being linked on a thematic level is how sequences build dramatic momentum. This is an opportunity to do that. ROTJ has a bad habit of undermining itself. A lot of good ideas in ROTJ are diluted by their position in the storytelling. IMHO.

Here's another idea. (Yeah, I have ideas. Let me know if it's too many).

The scene between Yoda and Luke starts with Yoda saying "That face you make, look I so old to your eyes." "No," says Luke, "Of course not." "I do... yes I do... sick have I become... old and weak... When 900 years old you reach, look as good you will not."  These lines make it feel like Luke just arrived and Yoda's feeling self-conscious. This undermines part of the reason for moving the scene up front.

I recommend using as much of this footage as possible while cutting out a few of the lines. If you remove all the lines from "That face you make, look so old to your eyes..." to "Yes I do..." you could still keep a lot of the quiet moments and let the scene start to set itself as Yoda tends the fire and finally says "Sick have I become... old and weak... etc."

That seems a more natural place to start the scene if it's going to have the impression that Luke's been there a while.

Just a thought.

With this new order of scenes, I think the second DS2 scene (where the Emperor arrives) would work better between Luke's talk to Ben and the droids' walk up to Jabba's castle. Placed there, it dramatically builds on the things Yoda and Ben have said.

If it's kept back until after Jabba's barge blows up and just drops in between Tatooine and the Rebel convoy/briefing, it won't feel connected to the things Luke learns on Degobah. Moving it has another benefit, I think, because I believe the pace will work better if the action moves straight from Tatooine to the Rebels.  The briefing catches us all up on the DS2 situation anyway-- the Emperor scene won't be missed at that point.

Bingowings said:

The returning to Yoda has already happened, he did it straight after getting better to prepare for rescuing Han as a fully trained Jedi.

Yoda lived long enough to finish his task.

Han is on Tatooine so having Ben deliver his lines on Tatooine makes sense, he is showing Luke that their is even more at stake saving Leia from herself than just saving his friends.

In the wrong hands Leia could be just as much a threat as Vader (or potentially Luke).

As long as we see Luke on Degobah first, I could get to love this idea. 

If it weren't for the "Leia is your sister" stuff, I would drop the Ben scene altogether as it adds zero drama while it drains a lot.

The whole problem with this "Saga" is that Darth Vader and Anakin were not created to be the same character and everything that comes afterward is trying to retroactively fit together stuff that was never there.  Vader is so much cooler as a villain than he is as a tragic figure.  This movie would have rocked if we learned Vader lied, that Vader actually killed Luke's dad and that now Luke wants to hunt down and kill the old bastard.  That would be a stronger way to see Luke turn away from the Dark Side. So as long as we're wishing, I wish for that. :-)

Thank you for doing this, Possessed. Merry Christmas to us all! It cuts together pretty sweet!

I am encouraged that you're right after seeing the test. I had suggested more establishing shots, thinking how this is now the opening of the movie. A transition from the middle of the film doesn't carry the weight that the opening few shots of the movie do. 

This test doesn't get to the first shot of Luke yet. That's the beat that will really count. When you see Luke for the first time, does it feel exciting enough without the build up and pay-off that seeing Luke for the first time had in ESB or the original ROTJ?  

If "yes", then great. If not, I think there are relatively easy ways to compensate and build in more of a build up/reveal.

I think the trick is to have a good establishing introduction to Degobah. It can't just wipe to Luke's x-wing on the ground after Vader on DS2. But I wouldn't want to see Luke flying there either.

Some images from ESB would be good-- ones of just the swamp environment, maybe reversed to be unrecognizable.

Another important issue would be music-- the cues in the Luke - Yoda scene after it has been moved up front need to be "...And here is our HERO!" "This is DRAMATIC and TENSE! because being here is not a vacation! It's a dangerous RISK..."  The subtle quiet cues that are in that Luke - Yoda scene now probably won't fit the bill (but I'm not guaranteeing that-- music can be a funny thing that way.)  I do believe the first time we see Luke needs a bit of picture/music massaging since it's now an introduction.

Don't mind me. Just pointing out the obvious. I am excited about this.

I really like your thoughts on the glove, Possessed.

Interesting idea, Bingowings, but I find it even more resonant that Luke would run off to Yoda for answers and help. 

Having Ben there would feel like un-earned reward to me-- if he can come help now, why not on Bespin when we really needed him?

To really honor what we saw in ESB Luke needs to make the pilgrimage to the scene of his betrayal-- Yoda's home.

Bingowings makes good points. 

To me, the idea that Luke put everyone in jeopardy so they would ride a barge to the Sarlaac and escape there is too ridiculous. Especially as staged-- it would require that Luke know in advance about impossible to know details such as what job R2 would be reassigned to and that he would be the first one pushed into the pit-- hell, how the hell did he know they would be going to a Sarlaac in the first place? It is, bar none, the worst "plan" I've ever seen in a movie. It's like Ed Wood was Luke's strategist.

But rearranging it so that Leia jumped the gun with her own risky plan and got herself and Chewie caught has a kind of desperation to it. Not unbefitting for the sequel to ESB.

The idea of Luke's entrance being "mysterious" and therefor worth preserving makes me scratch my head. What was "mysterious"? Did we not know it was Luke? The only mysterious thing about it is WTF is he thinking? And the answer is apparently that he has a finely laid plan involving getting everyone to the Sarlaac pit where a blind Han will kill Boba Fett, etc. etc. 

I like Possessed's ideas about Luke's glove. He's going to give some of this a try. Yay!

How much training did Luke actually get from Yoda? "A few weeks" does seem to match the amount of growth we witness in Luke-- but how much time actually passes between Han and Leia escaping the base on Hoth and then Han being frozen in carbonite?  Weeks? That feels more like a couple days. And Luke arrives on Bespin in time to watch Han's march from the freezing chamber to the Slave 1.

I guess if we grant that the cross-cutting between Han and Luke is not meant to be simultaneous then Han could have been tortured and imprisoned for weeks before being frozen.  But that's not what it seems like.

From what we actually see in ESB, it seems Luke could only have trained for as much time as it took Han to fly to Bespin, miss dinner and then get frozen. What's that, like two days?  Three?  Leia does fall in love, so maybe it's a week?  I don't know.  Still, pretty clearly less time than one should need to become a self-declared Jedi.

But that's just part of the whacky charm of the OT. The individual Star Wars fan has to mend the inconsistencies of the movies each in his own way.  I do believe a great movie is  hiding inside of ROTJ and I think Possessed is digging it out.

No prob. Glad it wasn't at least too late. 

I wouldn't want to change the plot -- really it can't be changed. My problems with ROTJ boil down to the basic fact that it's a decent story, poorly told.  It's the story of Luke getting clear about who he is and forcing his father to wake up a little.

But it starts with Luke as inexplicably overconfident-- declaring himself a "Jedi" when the last thing he did was bail on Yoda and have his ass handed to him by Vader.

Then it veers into every major character as if it might just turn into their movie. At any given moment it feels like it's Han's movie, then it's Leia's movie, then it's Luke's movie again.

As opposed to ESB which really had 2 stories, ROTJ is just one story-- but it's told as if it were many.  

So cutting down on the extra "I've got a problem" beats (like Han's yearning for the Falcon and Leia's being alone in the woods) helps put the focus where it belongs: on Luke.

The idea of shifting the trip to Degobah into the opening was to let that story begin where it's supposed to begin-- at the start of the movie. But if it's too radical, I understand. ROTJ has been the way it is for a long time. I wonder though: Have you tried just throwing it into the opening just to see what it does to the flow of things?

I just saw the Dan edit of ROTJ and see that he cut the Leia/Wickett intro scene too. But I noticed that the tension is low because he cut the whole thing so there's absolutely no hint of what happened to Leia.

I think it's important to keep the first part of the scene where the feet and the spear come into view and approach Leia's helpless body.  Let the tension build in the music... DAH DAH DAHHH... and then cut to the next scene.

That way we know there's something out there, it's hunting us, and when the net catches everyone there's more suspense over finally seeing what it is.

Thanks for letting me add all this to your thread, Possessed. I totally understand that it's late in the game. As Erik says, it would be best if I could do these ideas myself. (Can these fan-edits be done on Mac yet?)

Now I'm just saying this to say it, but if one were to start with the capture of Chewbacca and then Luke seeing Yoda die, then it might work best to cut away to Luke before the failed rescue of Han.

That way things would really look bad-- first Chewie is caught with no apparent hope of rescue (avoiding the silly reveal of Lando); then we find otu Luke isn't even there --and Yoda dies; then Leia gets herself caught... Jeez!(cut the Han/Chewie reunion scene). With the darkest possible music over all this, it would feel as suspenseful as it was supposed to.

Then come the droids walking right up to the mouth of the lion... Their presence indicates that Luke has arrived, but he's already way behind.  But at least his plan now makes a little sense-- gift the droids, go in and try to get everyone else out -- if it all fails, R2 has his light saber hidden away as a second chance. (Provided Jabba makes R2 a drink server and takes them all to the Sarlaac pit and etc... I will never really understand Luke's plan).

BTW: Thanks, Sluggo-- Starkiller Ranch lives!

Hey Possessed. I just found this thread and got excited about your edit.

I LOVE the idea of cutting the first Ewok scene with Leia. I've dreamed of what that would achieve-- it would definitely pick up the pace at that point and keep our focus on Luke where it belongs.

This is probably too late, but I had some other ideas that might suit this project:

1. What if the first things we see in Jabba's palace wasn't from the droids, but was actually the capture of Chewie and failed rescue of Han?

This would improve the "plan" that Luke et al seem to be enacting. My question has always been-- what if Leia succeeded? How would they get Chewie and the droids? Or was Leia's failure part of the plan? Anyway, starting with Chewie gives the plan a more logical escalation and gives Jabba a stronger sense of menace.

This would mean cutting around 3p0 for that scene.  Use subtitles to replace his lines.  Then I'd cut to an even whackier idea:

2. What if Luke's trip to Degobah came next?  Luke isn't on Tatooine yet, he's busy with another errand first-- Yoda. This would get us right into the main story earlier and remove a big kink from the storyline that occurs when this scene is saved for later.  The idea that Luke would go to Yoda before saving Han would indicate the level of pain Luke is still going through over his fight with Vader. 

Both of these changes would bring a dose of darkness to the opening of ROTJ. In my mind, that brings it closer into alignment with ESB.

After Luke leaves Yoda and Obi Wan, we would get the scene of the droids walking up to Jabba's palace and the stage would be better set for their scene, the death of the first dancer, and then Luke's arrival and the reveal of Leia as Jabba's new bikini girl.

3. A minor note is that I would certainly recommend cutting the chatter between Han and Luke as they ride out to the Sarlaac pit. There is way too much "humor" that both falls flat and deflates the tension in that sequence.

I know you most likely want to finish your edit and I'm not sure why these ideas would make you want to hold off-- but I offer them in case they can be of any use.

I love what I'm seeing here and thanks for all your hard work!

Great News Trooperman!

This is a great edit and I get the same kind of thrill when I see how much you put together at such a young age. 

Thanks for doing it and thanks for sticking in there! 

...Now get to work. ;-)

Still kind of amazed at how well this edit works.

I love how the Anakin/Padme stories seem to come together in the first act and climax with them being sent away in hiding.  The feeling is so right-- a palpable curiosity about what this will lead to.

I also love the sequence on Tatooine now-- they really feel romantic and mysterious as Padme is drawn to Anakin's tortured soul, but only the viewers know how tortured the guy really is.

I think if Lucas had followed this cut of the story and followed it through, the film would have many admirers. This is much more the story he wanted to tell.

It's weird. For me, the most important ingredient in these prequels is Lucas. If these came from anyone else, they'd be "fan fiction" to me.

It's the Lucas x-factor that makes these so interesting. We puzzle endlessly over why he did this and that. But HE did it, and that makes them interesting.

I've never been able to enjoy the "extended universe" stuff. The Timothy Zahn novels felt wrong within a few pages and I stopped reading.

"Remaking" these would probably work for me if the original story was kept and simply made more dramatic (i.e. have the Jedi Council actually DO stuff, have consequences for Qui Gonn's defiance, maybe reverse the TPM dynamic so that everyone EXCEPT Qui Gonn thinks Anakin is the chosen one instead of making Anakin a jedi even when EVERYONE correctly thinks he's bad, etc.)

The way things are going, I bet we can expect some pretty decent unofficial remakes within 20 years. That will be interesting.

And ruin my favorite hobby? Hell nah!

I met a guy recently who got to work with Lucas a while ago.  He said they got into a discussion about releasing the OT and George just couldn't be made to see any point to it. He's really agin' it, it appears. He wishes we'd all just accept the current version as his and forget that one with the bad effects that he couldn't finish the way he wanted.

My friend said they didn't talk about fan edits.

Not new info, but to get it from one degree of separation was interesting. Now you got it two degrees separate.

Otherwise, working with George was really pleasant, according to my new BFF ;-).

Excellent improvement, Brash. I likes.

I still don't understand the assassin's motive in hanging out on a building ledge when the worms could have been sent from any anonymous place in the whole planet-- but that's an issue we can't solve.

You've overcome my objections, now I just miss one of my favorite moments-- but sometimes that's what happens. This movie needs all fat trimmed.