MTHaslett

I respectfully disagree. How could the original cut be "more" ridiculous? At least he had seen her-- that his attention to the Force allows him to predict her route to some degree is totally in line with what they tell us the Force can do.

The new cut exaggerates the flaws of the original. By finding the culprit without the slightest trail or clue, in the space of a single cut gives them extra superpowers that we never see anywhere else in the saga. If they can do this, they can never be fooled or lost or anything.

But by having Obi Wan jump out the window and grab the floating thingy, Obi Wan at least gets dragged in the direction of the bad guy. At least they get a hint about, I don't know, what point on the compass they should be looking in. What half of the city. What general area to focus their amazing powers. Without that, it's like a Superfriends cut-- no connecting tissue of logic at all-- just: "Hey, there he is!"

Personally, I always loved the boldness of Obi Wan's move. The surprise of him jumping through the window was one brief moment in the first screening when I thought I might love this movie. I wish there were more surprises like that

When Anakin and Obi Wan follow the drone, they are given "clues" to follow back to the culprit. Without that, the jump cut is too vast and illogical for me, especially considering the material that is cut makes at least as much sense, if not more.

Sorry to write so much, but I wanted to lay out my case. I love that you're trying radical changes, Mrbenja, but I would truly dislike to see this particular change.

Couldn't disagree more, cutnshut.  Star Wars is totally dependent on "real world ethics" -- the concept of Knights being defenders of the galaxy is completely and totally out of the same set of cultural ideas and ethics that would say a father should be married and that your word is your bond etc.

If Jedi Knights can be trusted to protect worlds and someone as ethical and dependable as Han Solo is supposed to represent someone who deals with the seedier side of things-- then the Galaxy of Star Wars is an even more upright society than the "real world".

All to say, I guess, that I vote to stick to the wedding ending (without 3p0). It is what we have footage for and time enough to create. One thing to remember is TM can't spend much time on this.

^^But where do we get the footage?

Thinking on this a minute, the droid is going to look so much like 3p0 that it had better have some seriously non-3p0 dialogue.

Like that "etchuda" moment in ESB-- the moment this droid talks we need to know it ain't who we might think it is.

c3P0 is fluent in how many languages? Everyone in Star Wars is multi-lingual and that's just part of the landscape.

I wouldn't object to anything you're suggesting DuTwan.  I especially like how brief your dialogue is. I just don't think you're right that the droid would have to speak english. That's not what's seen in the movies.

The bottom line is that the ultimate product should feel a part of the original production. Getting voice talent that's good enough is not easy so Lucasfilm sound is always preferable to under-par voice work if it's do-able.

Dude. That's crazy talk.

Hmmm. Interesting...

I will say this: the end of the movie SOTDS needs to complete the love story. We can't just leave Padme in the sand getting picked up by a clone.  

So what is an alternate kissy-face ending?

BTW: I think TM should lose the clone dialogue as he arrives to help Padme. The scene reads fine without it and the music carries the content anyway. I think the voice can't really work as well as imagining what the voice is like or what's being said.  Anyone else have an opinion? I think this would be a small, easy, but valuable change.

That's awesome, Brash Stryker!

With that curt tone to his voice, I imagine he's saying something like "What do you mean flying in so low? Don't you know that disrupts these evaporators? Do you think I like baking my circuits out here all day? What do you want? Your mother? Let's see if master knows what you're talking about." 

I don't know. Something grumpy like that.

The cutaway to Padme seems unnecessary now-- the whole thing should probably be extremely brief-- like the other non-3p0 protocol droid scenes in the saga. Almost a one-line and off thing. The shorter it is, the more convincing it will be as a non-3p0 droid.

Good news about how easy it may be to cut around this character. That is, good news to everyone but TM who has to deal with tons of music changes every time there's a new cut he wants to do...

To remove 3p0 from the story, all we need to do visually is remove him from the interior space ship shots as Anakin and Padme decide to rescue Kenobi.

After that, I think we can cut around his shots entirely. As far as I recall, we only see him again on the same space ship telling R2 that he won't be going out to help save Anakin.

If we re-dub the grey, sun-baked protocol droid at Owen's farm with a robotic voice that is clearly NOT Anthony Daniels then he can simply be one of the droids on the farm. He can be at the funeral and even say the line, "He's carrying a message from an Obi Wan Kenobi. Does that name mean anything to you?"  It may work better coming from a different voice anyway.

Just saying. Not a big deal because TM has already made 3p0 so small in the movie that he almost causes no  pain. The biggest problem he poses in SOTDS is in attempting to un-do the idea that Anakin built 3p0. If we eliminate 3p0 altogether, it also makes this ambition possible. A new TPM edit could be done which eliminates 3p0 from that movie too. Hmm.

I love the shot too, Mrbenja!

If only we could eliminate all the 3p0 shots after the funeral-- then we could redub the protocol droid's voice and make it into some other droid.

Can you imagine?

Then eliminate baby Boba and make Jango into Boba... It's a slippery slope.

But simply not having 3p0 at the wedding is a big positive step all on its own. It makes the 3p0/R2 relationship a growing thing instead of a done-deal as it's presented in the PT.  They aren't instantly joined at the hip, that comes later (in epIII, I guess).

...or in other words, you'd vote to have Trooperman keep it "Jango"? 

What's with all the judgment? Can we see your edit of ep2 somewhere?

There is a ginormous amount of time watching the ramp lower and Dukoo walk out of the ship and down the ramp (a hallmark of the weird use of screen-time in the PT). 

So an obvious place for added lines is during that long walk.  Dukoo would conceivably come out of his ship eager to talk. 

Nothing else is available really. There's no chance to cut around the dialogue really, so Dooku should probably keep  his line "I bring you good news, my lord. The war has begun."

Concierge-- that's a little too much of a mouthful. If I understand your goal, you are trying to say "Qui Gonn started the clones without our direction, but it has worked to our benefit"? I don't think Dukoo would refer to Qui Gonn's death or go any farther than to say the clones arrived (because he has a follow up line about "the war has begun" which should stay.

How about:"Of course he never knew, but my old apprentice handed us victory today. Qui Gonn's Jinn's army is magnificent. It was a master stroke to play upon his idealism"

Good start, Concierge, but it has to be totally CONFIRMED that Qui Gonn was NOT in league with Dukoo and Sidious.

For example, "It was child's play to dupe my old apprentice into trying to save the republic. Qui Gonn Jinn's army has arrived."

S: "Welcome, Lord Tyrannus"

D: "I bring good news, Master. The war has begun"

S: "Excellent. Everything is going according to plan"

Whoa.

As I understand it:

CHANGE 1: Lama Su says Qui Gonn ordered the clones. Obi Wan reacts (although he doesn't have to repeat the name if you don't want, Trooperman. His lines where he actually repeats the name are less than essential-- but if they work they will help the audience confirm they heard this bomb-shell correctly).

CHANGE 2: Dukoo says that Qui Gonn HAD LEARNED the truth of the Sith when he invites Obi Wan to join him (this can be done with a small edit). He does not, however, mention the clones. No need to add that and tip Dukoo's hand.

CHANGE 3: Dukoo flies to Sidious and reveals that the war has begun. Dialogue to be written will allow Dukoo to also clarify one of the following (we need to pick one):

a) Qui Gonn actually ordered the clones, but Dukoo and Sidious somehow tricked him into it.

OR

b) it was actually Dukoo who ordered the clones and used Qui Gonn's name to do it.

So we need to pick a direction and then write the brief, but believable expositional dialogue that gets us there in the end.

I think I vote that Qui Gonn actually ordered the clones, but I don't know exactly how that gets clarified in the end. What does Dukoo say? The jist should be either: "Good thing Qui Gonn ordered those clones?" or "my apprentice fell for our trick, Qui Gonn's clones are operational!"

Is it really that simple, though, I wonder to myself. Because I saw it 4 times and enjoyed it every time... and yet.

What I liked most was that it clearly turned the SAGA into 6 films about Darth Vader. I'm one of those guys who pretty much hates ROTJ as a betrayal of everything the first two Star Wars movies got right. To me, that whole new direction Darth Vader took in ROTJ was one of the biggest disappointments in movie history. So to me, TPM was a step in the right direction and it kind of made ROTJ better because it gave this total lame ass "It's too late for me"-Darth Vader character named "Anakin" some background.

But TPM was riddled through with problems. ...Then someone created "The PHantom Edit"... Then I realized the genius of the PT was to give us fans a bunch of half-completed films so that we could have the adult pleasure of "playing Star Wars" by creating fan-edits! It's the grown-up equivalent for the fun I had with Star Wars figures as a kid.

Thank you, George Lucas, for half-assing the PT. Where would we be if you had done it better?

The excuses that have to be made to make the "SAGA" work have always bugged me. Worst one to me is why the hell does Obi Wan have to be such a lying a-hole to Luke about his dad. But anyway...

Trying to play along with the way things are in the movies, it doesn't make my head explode to imagine that Death Star II is completed much quicker than version I. Prototypes are often held up by (among many things) the building of tools that need to be invented to actually build the prototype. Once one is built, however, all these things are worked out and building a second is often twice as easy --or easier. (It is also possible that DS II was being built all along-- if one Death Star is enough to rule the galaxy, then Sidious might likely think that two is twice as good).

So if we look at the real world and see how long prototypes can take compared with production models, then the long development of Maul/Grevious may actually be useful to the Saga. After all, how did Sidious become such a masterful cyborg-maker as to rebuild Anakin in what seems like a few hours? Maybe he had years of practice developing General Grevious. 

Just thoughts-- I wouldn't put any of these explanations into the movies. They're more like the kind of stuff that should make sense "when you think about it". The whole Saga really works better for me when I let it remain just a little out of focus.

Gosh, Ben Danger, I love how enthusiastic this thread can get. But I don't think I understand any of your ideas.

There is no need to have Maul get torn apart in episode I and then torn apart again in episode II. He is simply being rebuilt into Grevious somewhere in the background of episode II until he is somehow revealed.

It would presumably be at this point, when Grevious is unveiled, that he is given the alias of "Grevious" and the title/rank of "General" for his work among the separatists. He need not have ever been a general before.

I can't understand the impulse to hide Christopher Lee's priceless face. He is Jedi Count Dukoo and presents himself as someone with an official capacity-- he pretends to be offended that Obi Wan has been captured. All of this will come off strangely if he wears a mask. What Jedi's wear masks?

The entire "sifo-dias" matter in SOTDS is moot-- the name has been cut. (Hopefully it will be changed even further if we can get the material worked out to replace "sifo-dias" with "Qui Gonn".)

I think Maul falling into a hot, energy-based substance would be appropriate...plus, it's an easy fix, just add a glow in the hole! 

**

Good idea, but that is actually and ep1 edit issue.

Honestly, I never thought falling in that chute could be anything but instant death. Am I off-base? What did you think happened to Maul's body at the bottom of it?

mrbenja0618 said:

Nothing about this will be easy I'm afraid......

I'm trying to figure out how to make this work, but also work in a storytelling sense... And hopefully meet Trooperman's approval...

But, I won't show off anything until I think it looks ok.

New thought....  I thought I read someone say that they thought it would be interesting if Maul were to fall into something energy-based.... something hot.

What if Maul was scorched? Much like Anakin would be later.... What if we took small snipits of Anakin being constructed into vader, and give the guys some charred horns... His tattoo would be burned off, we could be more subtle about it I think... Motion tracking horns may not be too difficult... And then maybe we could give Grevious Maul's voice... General Grevious to me was supposed to be a precursor to Vader anyway, why would it be so hard to have it look similar.. We could change the mood with some mild color correction..... This may be stupid, because I'm not sure a scene like this even belongs in ep. 2...  Thoughts?

 

 

Sorry, Mrbenja. I didn't mean to ignore this. I think this sounds good. First off, I would be shocked if Lucas had tried to say Maul got out of that chute without being chewed to ribbons and scorched. As has been said, it's a chute inside an energy plant-- it certainly didn't have a feather bed at the bottom of it for catching people.Do we have to see fire or energy in the pit to believe he gets scorched in the fall? I don't think I do. maybe I should rewatch it.

Can you say more about this idea? Let's say Maul is scorched and this could go in epII-- where would this go, after Dukoo arrives at Sidious' lair? That sounds good to me. So what would we see? A few bits of Sidious building Grevious? Would we do a reveal? It might be cool to have the reveal be simply a close on Maul's eyes opening in the Grevious mask. Music sting. Cut away.

As for changing Grevious' voice, I'm all for it-- but that's an epIII edit issue. It's not necessary for me. After all, Darth Vader sounds not one little bit like Anakin.  I don't remember enough about Grevious' voice to say I need it changed. Naturally, some of his lines could become more powerful and appropriate if they were rewritten with this idea in mind.

That's exactly my dream version Concierge-- except I was trying to figure out ways to repurpose epIII footage into it as a kind of preview to where Vader would be built. Not an easy scene to create out of what's available.

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Well, he's in reasonable shape when we last see him... falling from what looks like the equivalent of a skyscraper balcony. It's hard to believe he's going to look that sharp when they peel his carcass from whatever lies at the bottom of that chute!

Wait, Bingowings-- are you pulling to have the audience NOT know the Grievous/Maul connection until the final Obi Wan battle?

If you are, I understand that would be a great moment.

I guess that's what I'm saying too-- although astute viewers who have seen the hints we're trying to add should be able to piece it together long before the "reveal".

I thought I wanted to have the audience know a lot sooner, but I hadn't really figured out how. Keeping the reveal until the final duel actually makes a lot of sense to me now.

Sounds great, Bingowings. (re: your coda in ep1 idea)

What do you mean about having Dukoo hang around? Is there footage of that? I honestly don't know.

I have been partial to the Kaiber Crystal storyline in MagFan's edit and therefor partial to the final image of Boss Nass holding it up... but almost nothing else about that final sequence works for me. I like your version much better.

But what would the coda really be like? Where does it happen? Who's in it? Do you have it worked out?

I guess the reason I always wanted to set it up for the audience before the opening of episode 3, was to improve the impact of a lot of Grievous' wheezy/coward behaviour. If I knew that was Maul, I'd think "he's doing pretty good for a dead man" instead of "who is this new, awkward character and why can't he be more bad-ass?"

The suggested way for Obi Wan to learn the Maul/Grievous connection is for Grievous' eyes to be shaded most of the movie and then revealed as Maul's when he and Obi Wan finally face off in close-ups. It's a very good spot because it's directed as the moment when "it gets personal"... except that there really isn't anything personal about it. This story change is, in part, to help add the element that would have made that fight totally work.

Wow, Benja. That's a place to ad a coda-- I personally always thought seeing Maul at that point would set up Maul/Grievous for epIII quite well.  I just never knew how to do it.

"The mock-up was originally for a coda to Episode One."

***

For when, after Qui Gonn's funeral?

After Yoda tells Obi Wan to teach Anakin?

After the victory march on Naboo?

I never thought of Ep 1 as needing yet another coda.