MTHaslett

Great Great stuff, Spence! This is unbelievable-- so many great ideas and so many great clips! Gaah!

One point I am intrigued by, but couldn't quite grasp the whole picture on is this:

When did Luke confirm that Vader is his dad? Off-screen, shortly after ESB? Yeah, I guess that works pretty good. Am I getting that right?

Also, on the final battle clip-- have you considered ways to make it seem like Lando takes as much time flying out of the Death Star as he took getting in? I think a good (missed) opportunity for tension is in that footage if the impression can be that Lando didn't get out in time-- before he does.  I've never considered it in the order you've now placed it, but I submit the idea.

LOVE the new Luke/Vader battle. I think their fight really improves by being connected as you did there.  Now it seems more like a sequel to ESB instead of a completely different kind of fight.  Too bad there isn't a bunch of unused footage somewhere to keep it going even longer. 

So impressed. So looking forward to this. Thank you!

Cover image for the Possessed Edit?

Possessed said:

Yes but I can't use the crawl unless the starfield matches that of the opening shot of rotj.

 

And like I said we could just remove mention of them already being on tatooine, and then I could use the menu shot without rotoscoping.  Because that's not going to happen.

The new text doesn't mention anyone but Han being on Tatooine, so that's covered.

The starfield problem is beyond me, except to say that I've seen edits where a cross-fade is added during the "pan-down" so that the new star field dissolves into the original starfield. It has never bothered me, though it is obviously not as elegant as it could be.

If we see the Falcon and the X-Wing fly down to Tatooine, then park in the desert, and then see the droids walking-- does that give time for Lando to insinuate himself into Jabba's guard?

It might be appropriate to use a "clockwise wipe" to the droids or even a fade to black between-- to indicate they didn't just land and push the droids out the door.  There is at least one fade-to-black in ANH.

RE: YOUR EDITED REPLY -- I agree that the ANH shot is good. Have you tried "flipping" the image so the moons appear different in the sky?

Seeing just Luke's x-wing arrive on Tatooine would be perfect. But I think the recycled ANH establishing shot of Tatooine works on many levels.I'd have to see the shot of the x-wing arriving before I wanted to switch.

Asking Possessed to find and rotoscope more stuff at this point might be asking for a bridge too far. Polishing what's there will tell the story. That's the bottom line.

Here's another take on the opening crawl if TML and Possessed want to try something clearer:

LUKE SKYWALKER has returned to

Degobah following his defeat at the

hands of DARTH VADER. Luke seeks the

guidance of Jedi Master YODA. Meanwhile,

on Tatooine, Luke's friend HAN SOLO

remains in the clutches of vile gangster

JABBA THE HUTT.

Little does Luke know... (etc.)

This wording is more in line with the tone of the original crawl and, I hope, sets the stage for this edit a little better than the previous version.

Wow, TML, that's really cool! :-D

But what do you really think of that text? It seems awfully complicated still. I'll try to widdle it down again because it just feels like a traffic jam of information when I see it flying across the screen like that. 

Thank you TML!

Man, let me tweak my own awful writing there if I may-- 

LUKE SKYWALKER, shaken by his disastrous 

battle with DARTH VADER, flies to Degobah to seek

guidance from Jedi Master YODA. But Luke's 

friends desperately await his help on Tatooine

where they plan to rescue HAN SOLO from the

clutches of vile gangster, JABBA THE HUTT.

Little do they realize... (etc.)

Possessed,

The Ben scene is not "hard to follow", I used the wrong words. I found a couple of edits jarring, especially when you cut to Ben seated without showing him sit down.

But that's my problem for knowing the original so well, most likely. As I said, my wife didn't mind.

I know what you mean about the difficulty of this. It's time consuming and frustrating. I think you're doing great and that if all you did was add Luke's theme to the transition you've got then the whole piece would work fine.

I can't thank you enough for going down this road. I'll understand if you have to abandon it, but I think you've done a brave and valuable thing here.

Hey Possessed.

Had a chance to really look at this and loved it. What an emotional build-up this all has before we even get to Jabba. Now that Jabba scene is going to feel so much more meaningful. This is so much more a movie about Luke. 

I did notice a lot of editing in the Yoda and Ben scenes, but did not recognize the esb source. I was thrown by the edits myself, so I screened the clip for my wife who is an editor that doesn't really know Star Wars shot-for-shot like the rest of us. She was less thrown, but still had a couple issues. The biggest issues were that Yoda seems off when he "confirms" that Luke is a Jedi and that the transition to Tatooine seems too abrupt.

She was first going to suggest cutting out the matte of the ships because she couldn't really see the x-wing so it got confusing when we cut from the Falcon to R2. She asked, "so was that not R2 with Luke?" and I had to show her that Luke's x-wing was in that long shot.

The solution we ended up liking was to suggest you extend the timing of the two transition shots and cross-fades as much as possible while "aiming" your zoom on the matte shot at Luke's x-wing and (most important of all) using Luke's musical cue (the main Star Wars phrase) to really bring the transition home. That music more than anything would tell us "Luke is now on Tatooine".

As for fixing the Yoda beat, I beg you to put back Yoda's original reaction and instruction that Luke must face Vader first.

Though my wife was not bothered, I was thrown by Yoda's reference to Luke's "Father's Fate" BEFORE Luke asked about his father. It could work, theoretically if Yoda is referring to the lie Ben told of Vader killing Luke's father as Luke's "Father's Fate" but that's pretty extreme. We haven't heard that story for two movies now, so to reference it in a throw away line seems confusing. 

I also found the re-edited Ben scene to be hard to follow, but my wife didn't complain.  I didn't see the need for the re-edits, but maybe you'll say what you were really going for?

Anyway, those are all the complaints. I have to say that seeing the two DS2 scenes so close together really worked for my wife and I think it's a key to really completing the set up of this whole movie. Seeing the Emperor for the first time, seeing how much he has planned for Luke-- it's a suspense building technique that pays off big here. Now we know Yoda and Ben are right-- Luke is in grave danger and has no idea of just how much.

Making crawls is a resident pastime here-- I can help point you to someone if no one who knows how volunteers to help.

Nice grasp of the obvious timdiggerm.

Briefly avail-- here is the crawl I quickly came up with. (More thorough reply later):

Shaken by his disastrous battle with DARTH VADER,

young LUKE SKYWALKER flies to Degobah to seek

guidance from YODA, his Jedi Master, before rejoining

his friends on Tatooine. But Luke's friends desperately

await his help to rescue HAN SOLO from the

clutches of ruthless gangster, JABBA THE HUTT.

Little do they realize... (etc.)

I managed to download, but I've been too busy to watch very much. It looked great and my only comment was to come up with a new crawl to match this new order of things.

I couldn't download the last clip, I think Rapidshare had a limit to how many downloads were allowed for free or something. Maybe Erik ran into the same thing here.

I have been watching this lately and liking it more and more. Great work, Daneditor. I love not seeing Boba Fett. I especially love the work you did on the Ewoks in the final battle. They have gravitas and charm now. 

I love the music over the final "dance". I'll never understand the appeal of "Yub Yub" and thanks to you I'll never have to.

THANK YOU!!!

I'll have to look for other cuts. Most of what I would suggest happens already in the DanEdit, so if you like anything there, I say go for it (with appropriate thanks).

As for upping the tension as Luke and Vader talk, it's mostly simple. After the SuperStarDestroyer crashes, the original cut goes inside the DS2 where everyone's panicking and running for cover. This doesn't make obvious sense-- sure it's bad news, but the crash shouldn't affect the DS2 one iota.

So cut instead to Lando and Wedge going into the DS2, follow them all the way to the center-- there it is: WOW. Let's hit it. Wedge blasts away and something blows up.

CUT TO: inside the DS2 where everyone's panicking and running for cover. See Luke carry Darth to the ramp of his ship and collapse.

CUT TO: Lando flying in for his attack run-- he blasts the reactor and it starts to collapse.  We gotta get out of here!

CUT TO: Luke and Vader -- they talk and the tone is somber-- but added sound effects make it clear that the DS2 is collapsing from the inside. Distant explosions grow louder and more constant. Luke doesn't care, he's going to have this moment.  He reluctantly agrees to remove Vader's mask. He takes the top off...

CUT TO: Wedge flying out of the DS2. He's safe, but what about everyone else?

CUT TO: Luke pulls back the final piece of helmet (only need the last bit of this footage) revealing Vader's face-- they see eye to eye and talk. Vader tells Luke to run. No, says Luke. Vader dies.

CUT TO: Lando flying deep in DS2, flames coming fast behind him. They eat the TIE fighter behind him.

CUT TO: Luke's ship in the hanger, moving as the hanger falls apart.

CUT TO: Ackbar orders his fleet to move back.

CUT TO: Luke flying out of the DS2 (Maybe lose his last "sigh of relief" which is strangely unconvincing).

CUT TO: Lando completing his death-defying escape from the DS2

CUT TO: DS2 from a distance-- it explodes.

MAYBE: after the explosion is the place where we should see Luke's "sigh of relief"? I don't know. If it were a better performance, I would say we need it. But I just don't know

That would feel a lot more tense and sensible. In the original cut, it takes longer for Luke to load dead Vader into his ship than it does for Lando to destroy the main reactor and navigate all the tunnels out from the heart of DS2.

Plus, to me, it will add emotion to Luke/Vader's scene when we see how they're risking death to have their final moment together.

Possessed said:

And MTHasslet, you do have some good ideas, and I'm sure I will use some of them.  I will retain the first bit of the wicket and Leia scene I think.  As for Vader, I have no problem with his personality in this movie, at all.  I always assumed that having connection with his son had drastically altered his view on everything.  He had plans before, but harming his son and then connecting to him with the force sort of softened him up a bit.

 

Most, if not all of ewok silliness will be removed.  They will be in the final battle, but mainly on their serious shots will stay.  (Which means, when they reveal themselves, when they kill something, and when they get killed themselves). No more will wicked hit himself in the face with a rock and strangely have no damage done to his face.

Possessed, I know I will love this edit. I am impressed with your decisiveness and clarity -- even if you are wrong every now and then ;-)

This edit is so close to what I would do myself that I get a little passionate about the places where we diverge. I hope you don't mind. Let me know if I come on too strong.

The last place I know I have a suggestion is in the pacing of Luke's escape from the Death Star. I'd like to see it more closely linked to Lando's assault on the main reactor so there's a stronger sense that he won't make it out in time.

Does that sound interesting? If not, I won't bother getting into the specifics.

mrbenja0618 said:

I kinda agree with Dan... And also how do explain Luke's black glove before he gets shot in the hand?

It cannot be explained. It is something Luke wears on his bum hand sometimes. Kind of like his poncho in ANH.

EDIT: also, I think Possessed said he's cutting the "shot in the hand" beat. It seems like a phoney bit anyway.

Ah, I didn't know about that clip. I just went and looked at it and I agree with you: those lines that I dislike so much work better in your cut. You've made the scene play very well.

However, I have a hard time with these lines which state in no uncertain terms that Vader's a guy who would say: "I'd go with you if I could, but I am not able to do what I want." I can't accept them as something Darth Vader from ANH and ESB would ever say.

"He will join us or die, my master." That's how Vader talks. Cutting off Luke's hand to get Luke's attention-- that's what Vader does. This movie is about Vader changing, yes. But that change will be more effective without these lines. The impact of seeing Luke surrender this way (which Vader has admitted is a surprise to him) is HUGE. Vader should be happy, making his best pitch to bring Luke into the fold, not confessing his inner doubts.

The original scene tries to have it both ways.

You've cut it to the most effective presentation of Vader's doubts. I feel like both of these strategies fail to match up with Vader as we know him from the earlier movies.

For me, this scene could be made to match that character from the earlier movies-- if he emphasizes how great it is to be on the Dark Side and if he doesn't say "It's too late for me" and "I must obey my master."

These lines introduce an idea that isn't in the other movies-- that Vader doesn't like being who he is and that he wouldn't be this way if he had a choice. That's different than showing us how the Vader we knew is changing-- it's showing us a Vader that never was before and pretending that's who he was all along. I never met anyone who sensed that about Vader in ANH or ESB. 

I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I think this is a choice about who Darth Vader is in your edit. I understand if you don't want to go my way-- but I think this is the most important scene about who Vader is in ROTJ.

WHEE!

Hey everybody, another post from me! Yay!!

Anyway, does it bother anyone else when Vader says lines to Luke that underline his growing weakness? To me, the scene where Luke surrenders to Vader is nearly ruined by having him say two particular lines: "I MUST obey my master" and "It is too late for me, my son."

On the one hand, they lay bare a yearning inside Vader-- on the other hand, that yearning would be more powerful as an unspoken subtext.

Particularly the line "You don't know the POWER of the Dark Side" would stand better without the next line "I MUST obey my master."

And the last part of the scene will work way better without the totally false line of "It is too late for me..." -- I mean, is Vader a tough guy or an unwilling pawn?

My 2 cents. (added to all the others, I supposed).

Dan mentions the trouble of not having any Luke shots after the story rejoins the Rebel fleet (meaning, no shots that will work with the idea that Luke went to Degobah before going to Tatooine). I like Possessed's attitude toward fixing this by truncating the whole briefing. I want to suggest the obvious, that the Luke/Han/Leia reunion can be moved to the front of this briefing and that the lack of Luke coverage can be disguised by choosing a clever place to cut out of the scene.

The scene begins with a hand-held shot walking into the briefing room. Then a shot of Ackbar up on the command bridge. I suggest the next shot be Luke coming downstairs to join Leia and the others. After they all greet each other, then hearing the first words of the briefing over that image ("The Emperor's made a critical error...") would allow a cut directly to the woman giving the briefing. We can presume that Luke and everyone sits down while she's speaking.

Then she finishes speaking and Ackbar takes over. He finishes and then General Nadine speaks. Then let Leia set up a reveal with "I wonder who they got to pull that off" and then Nadine says "General Solo, is your Strike Team assembled?" -- with one last awkward look from Solo we can cut out of the scene. We don't need to see Chewie and Leia volunteer after that-- we know they would and seeing them on the shuttle will simply confirm what we knew without the (imho) lame bits of "I didn't want to speak for you" and "Count me in".

Then you can cut right to the hanger and Han getting on the shuttle-- just like in the Dan Edit (if you don't want to keep the Han/Lando farewell).

By the way, I keep looking at the DanEdit (Great work, Dan!).

He has some terrific ideas and beats. Some actually point to even better ones, in my opinion and I thought I'd suggest a couple here.

One happens when Han is trying to sneak up on the forest troopers -- Dan eliminates the twig snap by using the cut away to Chewie barking. I think taking that a step farther, you could use that cut away to come back on Han grabbing the trooper by the arm and flinging him into the tree. Then the second trooper sees the attack and tries to get away-- but Chewie steps up and shoots him down... mission accomplished. That way these two can look totally competent like they did taking out the probe droid in ESB. Work in the cut away to Luke and Leia where appropriate-- Luke's comment can take on a less sarcastic tone and the action can continue.

The other idea is a little earlier, when Han is sending the clearance code over to the Super star destroyer. As Dan has it, Leia sighs and says "Now we find out if that code is worth what we paid for it" and Han replies "It'll work. It'll work," while looking back at her and then looking forward.

I'd suggest the tension would work even better without this "Remember, we paid for this code and this is sure risky, huh?" type expository dialogue. I suggest the shots be short, quick reaction beats-- Han sends the code, then Leia breaths her sigh, then Han turns from glancing back at Leia to looking out the front-- then Luke says his line, "Vader's on that ship..."

 If these are good ideas, they are thanks to Dan's work.  I know that, if they can work, they are good bits for improving the tone of these scenes.

My first instinct was a straight dissolve/cross fade.  I just watched ANH and counted two in a row in the sequence where Luke and Ben are being shadowed on their walk to the Falcon.

I said "wipe" to avoid having to defend what I thought would be a losing suggestion.  Honestly, I think a cross dissolve of this kind (from outer space to long shot) will work great.

Erikstormtrooper said:

Possessed said:

Sluggo said:

The music sounds great!

 I think the clip works fine without the orbital shot of Tatooine.  It is R2 and 3PO out in the desert.  Where else would it be other than Tatooine?  If you wanted to announce it is Tatooine through the music instead of a visual, you could drop in a very small segment of music from the original Star Wars score from when the droids were wandering in the Jundland Wastes.

Well, see from a storytelling point of view it looks fine.  The main reason I added it was just to slow things down a bit.  Imagine how fast that would be, that would have the story literally jumping from luke and r2 on degobah and r2 and 3p0 on tatooine in the span of about 9 seconds.  Now with the orbital shot, it's at least 15! lol.  You're right tho, it doesn't look very good.  Maybe I should replace it with a generic shot of just a desert of tatooine?  Would be a better establishing shot and still slow the pace down.

What about a slow zoom in on the matte painting of the X-Wing and Falcon parked in the desert? Could that work as an establishing shot?

I love this shot too.

Another source for this transition is the classic "pan down" to Tatooine from the opening shot of ANH. Cut it or loop it for a beat before the Blockade Runner comes into the shot, then wipe to the unused matte painting. Poetically speaking, that classic image of Tatooine could work as a visual cue to this "rhyme" from ANH of going back to Tatooine.  Lucas constructed ROTJ with many such rhymes.

ANOTHER IDEA: Later, once the Ewoks join the final battle, there is a lot of visual joking in the original cut. But there seemed almost a beat of real gravity when one or two Ewoks die. Can the dead Ewoks move up, timewise, in the battle? The sooner we see Ewoks die, the more real the battle will become.

EDIT TO ADD: The DanEdit does a great job of this. His work on the Ewoks is terrific! I would only add to his work the little bit when we first encounter them by showing Ewok feet and a spear stalking up to Leia's unconscious body to leave her in a sense of impending danger before cutting away to the others.

Merry Christmas Trooperman and the entire SOTDS thread!

This is the fanedit I've watched the most. It best emodies what's possible in fanedits to me. It also shows how much fun the PT can be.

Here's to next summer!

EDIT: "emodies?" I mean "embodies".  SOTDS embodies what a fanedit can be when enough new ideas are brought to bear.

Possessed said:

Erik, nice idea indeed!

So I'm going to make you guys a nice little preview for waiting so long.  I was thinking just the edited film as is right now from the beginning up until the droids enter the palace.  (Now remember, this now includes the degobah scenes as well)

Fantastic. I haven't been able to come around a couple days. But this is exciting.

Possessed said:

Well it's either that or switch it back, because it won't make sense any other way.  I mean even if I switched the scene with chewie around how is that scene supposed to work without threepio?

This might be a problem.  Sure it works fine as far as flow and feel, but moving the yoda scene ahead causes problems I can't think of solutions to.  I mean I'm sure it's possible to edit 3p0 out of the scene with chewie but the results would be so choppy it would ruin it.  I think it might have to stay as it is.

Well, you have to follow your instincts. There are options. I think the way that seems closest to what you want would be: Vader on DS2/Luke Yoda; Luke Ben/Droids on Tatooine etc.  There's no real need to separate the Yoda scene and the Ben scene. 

I've gone over the cuts for editing 3P0 out of the Chewie scene and can suggest how to do it. It is not such a big deal. Most of what he does is repeat Jabba's lines. There are other shots of Jabba and his room from other scenes that can be used as extra coverage.  But the scene would basically be two characters talking through subtitles and plays fine to me. That would allow the scene order where the capture of Chewie comes between teh Yoda scene and the Ben scene.

But a third option I think you should just test before rejecting is having the Emperor arrive after the consecutive Luke/Yoda/Ben scenes. To me this has potential that is only clear when you see it.  This would allow the Droids (and Luke) to arrive before the Chewie gets captured.

What's left to solve?

Possessed said:

MTHaslett said:

Possessed said:

MTHaslett said:

But Possessed, I thought you were keeping the Chewie capture for after Luke arrived?

 

Uhm... why would I do that?  That doesn't make any sense at all it's not even like that in the original...

Uhm... The droids come as Luke's gift to Jabba.  How do they get there with his message if they are not with Luke?

Edit: For that matter, how would R2 get there if he's still on Degobah waiting for Luke to talk to Ben?

Oh dear, I didn't think about that.  I guess I could just edit R2 out of degobah. 

You're kidding, right?

Possessed said:

Bingowings said:

He isn't waiting around he is finishing his training so he will successfully rescue his friend (who isn't going anywhere trapped in carbonite).

 

I was talking about that being an effect of splitting the scene up as yodas death and luke talking to ben as two separate scenes, I was saying that it would seem like he was waiting around after yoda died and then finally talked to ben and then left.

I think Bingowings understood that. I know I did. We were both trying to say that it would be a strange conclusion for any viewer to see Luke as "waiting around".  Luke and R2 are doing some sort of work on the X-Wing as Ben walks up. It's not like he's twiddling his thumbs.  And everyone else,  as far as Luke knows, is safe waiting for him to join them.