I am LOVING your 2010 cut, a dream project for me.
You may be just the wizard to save the Sequels for me. May I ask for a PM to the Sequels?
Thanks for all you do!
Troop on, Trooperman!
It makes my day to see you posting again. I add my gratitude and well-wishes to the others posting already. These fan-edits are a fun hobby conducted by real people and there's a lot of LIFE happening behind the scenes. It takes someone, sharing like you are, to bring a taste of real life to the proceedings.
I'm touched to see so many supportive posts. This has been a great forum for a long long time.
Thanks again for all the hard work, TM. I know I'll be keeping tabs on this edit.
I'll have to grant that Threepio has the ability to rise to the occasion. This one, however, is compounded by being a plan that works, not because it's so clever, but because the story needs it to.
What if these well-armed stormtroopers had simply blasted away like they did in ESB? The seven or eight troops that rush off to get the droids look clumsy and almost blind. Then they are overpowered by the ewoks so completely that they seem comical. The officer that orders them to their deaths is another almost comical element. Overall, this little sequence contains a lot of what went wrong in ROTJ. Taking it out is like removing a sore tooth-- and it lifts right out because the ewoks sound the call to battle as soon as it's over. The call-to-arms triggers a much more powerful image of ewoks rising out of the forest all around the troops. It's not even clear what use it was to have Threepio jeopardize himself when it only distracted a handful of soldiers.
daneditor: I agree that the Jerjerrod scene runs a little long, but I'm not sure what you could cut, other than just ditching the whole scene: the ground battle is chaos... he orders in the TIE bombers... boom! I'm not married to the scene though, so might just ditch it. At the very least the music needs reworking.
**
Well, I see another option in recutting this bit. After looking again at the Jerjerrod scene, I see that what bothered me was two-fold.
FIRST -- the footage he was "watching" contained dramatic editing and camera angles that wouldn't be on his screen (specifically close-ups and camera moves on Stormtroopers shooting over the camera).
SECONDLY -- Jerjerrod's reactions are too long and too dramatic for what he's seeing.
Before I go on, I want to underline: I think this is an AWESOME idea. I think what you've done adds so much to the battle, it has to be applauded.
But I think the best version would be a much shorter one. It's very easy to catch on to what's happening, so Jejerrod's reactions do not have to be very long. Neither does the footage he sees. I like your outline-- he sees, he orders the tie fighters, boom. When it feels off to me is when he seems to react with anxiety and emotion-- things just aren't drastic enough to cause him any sweat. He might have a little sadistic glee, which his performance hints at. But if he just calmly watched, ordered them to concentrate on that area, and saw results on screen that would be great. Because just seeing his attention on the battle below and seeing any additional battle footage expands everything exponentially.
As a side note, I was struck again by how much I dislike the start of the battle where the ewoks and Threepio have teamed up to cause a distraction. I think skipping that and just going right to the ambush feels more dramatic. It also avoids the bizarre out-of-character heroics from Threepio. "We're doomed. So why don't I just stand up like a big target and have them shoot at me?" It feels forced, strongly out of character and easily avoided-- in my humble opinion.
I think there are options in the Jerjerrod scenes, but I will do the work of making specific suggestions to back up that opinion. What you have is totally brilliant in that it solves the Ewok problem with new and better footage (instead of just cutting all the Ewok material down).
I understand your thoughts. I agree the lightsaber rebuild on Tatooine works fine. It's the Degobah scenes that suffer, imho, from not having the benefit of time spent in training.
The Degobah scenes as conceived are essentially stuff that could have been handled with a phone call. If only Luke had Yoda's number he could have asked, "Two questions: is Vader my dad and am I a Jedi?" "Answers to your questions are: yes and no... Vader. You must face Vader."
I have to say I was amazed by the effectiveness of the rough edit in this thread that panned down to Degobah from the crawl and showed Luke in training with Yoda. THAT is what I wanted ROTJ to start like. Then Vader hunting Luke. Yes! That's what this movie was supposed to be about. It feels to me like you have the ingredients of a miracle there, but I don't know from vfx and can only wish it were in your power.
Regarding the Ben scene, I have always disliked it as well. But in the placement where it would fall on Endor, it actually brings a narrative boost-- just when Luke needs to see Ben. I would venture to suggest a version where Ben says something new, recutting what is there to work with. I think it might be that he hints at Leia's relationship to him and then Luke puts it together, or Ben avoids the subject altogether.
The thing about that scene is that "from a certain point of view" is just bad logic. That might be a saving grace if that flawed logic were presented here, as Luke prepares to face Vader. Ben's words are small comfort and really do nothing to prepare Luke for the Emperor's tricks-- they may even plant doubts. If that's the way you play it (with music and editing) -- this could be good. In essence, it would be a scene about how Luke is so low because even Ben has become no help to him... dark, dark times indeed.
This suggestion is made also in light of the opinion that the Luke/Leia/Han scenes there in the Ewok village are pretty clunky in concept and hurt the flow of the story. I think Ben showing up is surprising. If his arrival can be given story weight (i.e. he tries and fails to bring Luke comfort before battle) then it could be a good idea.
Sorry to be pitching you ideas you have already discarded. I realize I'm doing that and can only hope you see I'm not trying to be argumentative.
One last thought:
I think this feels more like a sequel to the Empire Strikes Back than I ever before thought possible -- and THAT's worth gold.
It really comes down to feeling Vader pressing on Luke constantly. That's what ESB promised and what ROTJ totally dropped the ball on.
Very impressed! Love the effect of the new scenes on Tatooine and, particularly, the juxtaposition of Luke's mechanical hand wound with Vader. The connection between Luke and Vader is so much stronger in this edit and the movie is so much the better for it.
I was hoping to see two ideas that didn't make it-- the assembly of the lightsaber on Degobah and the convo with Ben Kenobi outside the Imperial shuttle. I may have missed reading posts that explain why these had to be cut, but they seemed like excellent ideas and I missed them.
So, that seems unfair as I type it, but it may be another way of saying that the Degobah and "Leia, you're my sister" scenes seem like my least favorite still in this much improved edit. I think you had good fixes in the above ideas, so if there's a chance of making them work, I urge that.
The restaging of the battle on Endor with the lost footage and the additional battle footage is an awesome thing. My instinct creatively is that it's taken a little far and that less would be more. The Death Star commander gets more screen time here than feels warranted. So, I love the idea, but could love it more.
I loved some of the additions to the final battle. It's a very tough finale to pull off well. I have found that my favorite version is in the Spence Edit where Palpatine is on the Executor and the Vader/Luke saber fight is cut into one long battle. At this point, marrying much of what you've accomplished here with Vader and Luke to the Spence Edit would create my preferred version.
I feel these notes are sub-par. I will watch again for more specific ideas and read the thread more carefully. I congratulate you on this. My qualms feel small compared to all you successfully pull off!
Ah, it's that ol' "I don't have to finish the edit because I've gone nuts" dodge.
I tried that one myself in the old Starkiller Ranch thread. InfoDroid may still be mad at me.
Smells like a hack.
I will also contribute the copies of the work-print to posterity if this doesn't get sorted out sometime this year.
Not for distribution, but TM did send a few out to specific contributors. This was years ago now. I just never showed these movies to my son until I thought he was old enough to really get it.
If there is forward motion to finish this edit, the wait will be worth it.
If not, then I hope that at some point a "workprint" release will be done.
Reviews will suffer, if certain fixes are never made. But if it comes to that, people who can watch a work-print with a temp mix and imagine it is the only Episode II EVER will be pleasantly surprised.
Just watched with my son who has still not seen the original release.
...Blown away.
Seeing it with someone who did not know what was original and what was not, the incredible music work really took over and this thing KICKED ASS.
I love this edit and, as assembled, I really like this movie.
Son's only complaint came at the staging that gets confusing around the final duel with Dukoo. But I was amazed how much it actually works as it is.
Not enough can be said about all the work you put into this TM. Thank you!
Bingowings: But it could be re-worked as a serious idea.
**
THAT is a prequel idea. In the sense that it could match Obi Wan's story and still blow your mind with surprises.
Curiouser and curiouser...
Great outline.. And doable up to a point in my mind-- I hope I see the footage I need.
If nothing else, a really cool trailer along these lines could be cut together.
Bingowings said:
You could even edit in Obi-wan calling him Qui-Gon Skywalker.
Drop ESB and you don't even have to do that.
Yoda and Mace could continue to moan about him, Obi-Wan could advise he would be on the council if he towed the line more.
Palpatine could refer to Darth Vader instead of Maul.
It's sort of makes sense really.
That's what I was thinking-- I'm going to rewatch with this in mind. Thanks, you guys!
I keep thinking Qui Gon as Skywalker might work and maybe the pit Maul falls into empties into the fiery lava pits where the Emperor finds him before rebuilding him in the black suit.
Building a story to go AROUND all that would be a trick, but some things could connect well.
I missed that!
Your ideas sound like more than can be done with a fan edit.
I guess I am thinking smaller. If you rrally think about it, there never was a true sequel to STAR WARS. Empire throws the whole Vader =Skywalker thing in there and that just isn't where Star Wars was going. It wasn't even a "twinkle in George's eye" until the fourth draft of Empire.
So I'm musing whether a direct, by the rules of STAR WARS '77 sequel/prequel could be constructed fom the prequel material.
That would mean no references to the other sequels, Yoda exists only in the prequel, Skywalker is a loyal friend and Vader is a talented, but ambitious pupil of Obi Wan.
But how does Vader betray and Murder Skywalker? With the footage that exists? Who in the cast could become Skywalker?
If Darth Maul was Vader, and Skywalker was Qui Gon? ...No.
Those are good thoughts -I love that McQuarrie stuff!
A thought I had on my own was that an approach of this kind might best be done telling the prequel story from Obi Wan's point of view. That's another idea I haven't heard before.
TPM would shrink considerably if it were recut to seem as if it were his story. But it actually sounds like an interesting way to shrink it, imho. So many sequences would have to be off-screen, but little that matters, since trying to make young Vader "likable" wouldn't be a concern.
It would probably mean cutting the prequels to rwo or even one movie.
That would be best-- Two movies, STAR WARS and one Prequel.
Hmmm...
I haven't run across this idea yet, but has some one around here kickedaround the idea of using the Prequels to create a fan edit that is simply "The Origin of Darth Vader"?
For me the Saga as a whole is a mite short of how great the first movie was all on its own-- back when Obi Wan wasn't a liar, Vader was just the Governor's henchman, and destroying the Death Star would "restore freedom to the Galaxy...."
So if there was just Star Wars, could a prequel be made that told the story of how Vader "was ayoung pupil of mine, before he turnedto evil..." etc? Avoiding any Vader=Skywalker reference because, in this version, that wouldn't be true-- the way it was before the dark times... Before "Empire"...
I agree with you, Bingowings, about the most important issues in AOTC. I appreciate you keeping your eye on the ball, so to speak. But that does not reduce my annoyance with the storytelling on this particular point--
The "problem" with Yoda showing up with the Clones is not so much a logical one-- all sorts of excuses for it can be invented (as you show).
But, as with so many things in that movie, there is more dramatic fisting going on than dramatic flow.
It's one thing to have the Clones show up in the nick of time to save Obi Wan-- but to go on and wage a full-on assault on the droid armies was a whole 'nother thing.
If the Clones were to wage a giant battle with the droids-- it would've been nice to see the Jedi had more time than the movie allows for setting it up. It stretches credibility to have Yoda go from brooding on Coruscant about not knowing there was a Clone army to suddenly zooming off to Kamino (off-screen) grabbing the Clones, and showing up on Geonosis with them ready to duke it out. It's "possible", but it isn't elegant.
I never allowed myself to really name the "problem" before, though-- because it never occurred to me there was a prayer of fixing it.
That's what makes this approach so interesting to me.
I think you're taking advantage of the weird disconnect between Yoda and the Clones showing up at the arena-- and then suddenly leaping into a giant battle with the droid army.
I never realized completely what I didn't like about that before. But now that you've unhinged the two events I know what it is. They don't feel like they're connected naturally.
How did Yoda and the Clones know about the arena situation and the giant droid army situation? From that little "email" they got from Obi Wan? It doesn't seem completely logical.
I like the direction this edit is going. It feels more likely that the rescue at the arena is when the Jedi would realize how big this Dukoo threat is getting -- so (as I believe you are saying) they have to regroup, get Clones, and come back to kick some ass.
Interesting! One more question:
Does the battle on Geonosis come chronologically before this revised opening, or is there a flashback-structure happening? I can't quite tell from your description.
Does the face-off with Dukoo happen at the end of the movie still?
I'm sorry if I'm just not getting it. I really like the idea of starting so far in-- all the way to Geonosis? Wow.
I'm really intrigued by how this new o utline may work. I want to take a stab at how it might go-- a stab which I know must be incorrect.
Can you correct the following, emanswfan?
OUTLINE:
Start on Kamino, with the arrival of Obi Wan-- discovers clones and Fett. [Or do we start with Obi Wan and Anakin sp litting up as Anakin leaves with Padme?]
Anakin, taking Padme to Naboo, goes into hiding-- then has dreams of his mother.
Obi Wan fights Fett, follows Fett to Geonosis and gets caught (?)
Padme and Anakin go to Tatooine and bury his mother, only to receive the message that Obi Wan has been captured.
Together, Padme and Anakin fly to Geonosis and also get caught. They meet Obi Wan in the arena and get rescued by Yoda and a Volunteer Army...
Then Dooku escapes after cutting off Anakin's arm.
A clone army assembles itself to go off and hunt down Dooku.
Anakin and Padme get married.
And most of the opening twenty minutes or so is either cut or sprinkled in at the end?
It is a strong idea to start far into the action like this. I think I must have things wrong here though. This is a cool notion, as I understand it so far...
[edited because I got confused about whether you start on Kamino or Geonosis]
God, that one-eyed assistant to the Senator is so stiff in his delivery that I wish we could get a new voice on that clam as well.
But Anakin's voice now sounds more natural than yours did, TM.
The balance of ambiance that allows the voice to sound right in the mix is yet to be perfected, but that's a separate battle.
Nice w ork!
TM: In a bad mood now (someone smashed the window of my car during class tonight- just senseless vandalism).
**
So sorry to hear that. I hate that feeling. I wish you speedy repairs and cooperative insurance folks.
...and pleasant file-loading and fan-editing too, of course. :-)
Seven Years!?!??
I quit.
No I don't. Anything I can do, sign me up.