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MTHaslett

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13-Apr-2005
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Post
#113495
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/113495/action/topic#113495
Time
Twister--

I missed your post. I'm glad you see my point-- or rather I'm glad you don't have an even BETTER reason to cut the look. I'm optimistic about the potential romance contained in the stuff Lucas shot and I would LOVE to have the time and resources to do my own cut. Lucky you. If I was doing my own, I wouldn't have to lobby so hard to get my wish-list into Trooperman's hands. I just hope you editing types don't get tired of my notes. ;-)
Post
#113359
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/113359/action/topic#113359
Time
Trooperman--

Sounds great! The way you have linked the balcony scene and the fireside scene in my mind is now completely inescapable. It's the kind of creative switch that will make this new cut far better than people have a right to expect.

Cutting the bedroom scene, dinner and kitchen scenes so they work better sounds great. I also love the "Sound of Music" reference that you're adding. But two things there make me nervous:

1. Them "rolling around" is too childish and too intimate for these two awkward statesmen. She is a queen and a senator. He is a Jedi. Sure, they're kids, but they aren't 5 year olds. When we see two 19 year old kids rolling around in the grass it means they're either brother and sister or lovers. It doesn't mesh with this new, smarter Anakin you're building here. If this WERE a democracy, I'd vote agin it.

2. Anakin talking about his dream of having a monarch who makes the senate do the right thing makes him look dumb again. I know he's naive about the Supreme Chancellor, but I don't think he is too dumb to understand the fundamental concepts of democracy. Furthermore, saying this to Padme is as sure-fire a way to drive her off as if he told her he just killed a bunch of women and children. She has devoted her life to democracy and been the Queen for cryin' out loud. Any man with Anakin's "dream" will never get in her pants. She probably wouldn't talk to him again for days after that.

I think the visual of them in the grass is awesome and should be played totally for scenery -- with the love theme playing over them. Why sully it with misguided political talk?
Post
#113190
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/113190/action/topic#113190
Time
Twister:

Why cut out the longing look?

To decide when or how the scene "ends" means deciding what the scene's about in the first place.

Padme talks a lot about what she used to do here growing up and Anakin listens to her-- but what's really happening? The scene is not about that, it's about what they're feeling and not saying.

She's talking about stuff to avoid awkward silence -- but she's sharing details of her past because she likes him and that's what people do when they like each other. Anakin listens, but his brooding manner cannot hide his feelings-- in fact it speaks as loudly as if he were using the words: "I'm really hot for you."

So when she finishes talking and turns to him the scene is about to turn-- the truth of the moment will become clear to the characters: love is in the air.

Is Anakin going to talk?

Will they kiss?

Neither of these are necessary for the scene to get to it's point. One shared look between these two will say everything that needs to be said. They have a mutual thing going.

But, as this is not an easy match, they are not likely to leap into action or even into talking about their feelings the moment they realize they might both like each other.

But once we know they are aware of their feelings, the next dramatic beat we care about is the point when the DO talk. So it's natural to cut from that moment on the balcony to the fireside -- PROVIDED the scene on the balcony goes far enough to demonstrate they are finally conscious of their feelings.

If, on the other hand, the balcony scene ends with Padme declaring she "can't give into this" then the fireside scene will become awkward -- why the costume change? Why the intimate setting? Why are they still talking about this? What happened in-between? It raises more questions than it settles.

If the balcony scene can end with the characters knowing they have something to talk about on the subject of love which they have not opened yet, then the fireside scene will play as it was always intended to, but never could. The costume and setting are Padme's attempt to go along with her feelings, but at the last moment she turns away because she knows logically that it's wrong.

None of these issues can be settled ahead of time if the fireside scene is to work.
Post
#112170
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/112170/action/topic#112170
Time
Originally posted by: Trooperman

Also, I like the general idea of what you're doing with the lake and fireside scenes, but won't the transition between the two be a bit odd? They are outside in one set of clothes and...their conversation continues inside with different attire?

Which is a very good point. It means that on second thought, I won't use a hard cut- I'll use either a fade or a clock-wipe to indicate the passage of time.



I think this link between the balcony and the fireside scene is a great idea. The one definitely leads to the other -- particularly the look from Padme which says she really likes Anakin. I agree with the poster above that the transition you have here will be jarring. Changing from a hard cut to a wipe will kind of hide the problem, but I think there can be a better fix. The problem I see is that once Anakin says he loves Padme she HAS to respond. We want to know what she has to say to that.

What about this: have the Anakin dialogue play right where you suggest, over the balcony scene where Padme gives him that longing look -- then dissolve to the fireside scene right where you suggest except that we see a final moment of Anakin speaking. It's a technique of letting the dialogue from the next scene play over the tail of the preceding scene -- to bring out the subtext. We realize they're thinking things on the balcony that they talk about at the fireside. It's a great technique used all the time and it allows you to have your cake and eat it too -- the dialogue is where you want it, while the audience gets to hear the whole conversation.

If we just wipe to the next scene, I'd feel instinctively that I missed a bunch of great stuff. What did she say on the balcony? What happened between then and now? But linking the scenes with overlapping dialogue will make all the changes of costume and location speak for themselves. They are a counterpoint to the dialogue -- her lips say "no no no," but her actions say "yes yes yes."

By the way, I like the idea of tricking up the German language Jar Jar. I love how thoroughly you're going through this. Keep up the good work.


To clarify: the scenes as I'm suggesting them would play out something like this:

EXT. BALCONY - NIGHT
Padme jabbers away as Anakin listens, in love and gathering the courage to say so. He leans to her. She turns to him.

ANAKIN (V.O.) Padme. I love you. I've loved you since I first saw you all those years ago. I was afraid to tell you before...

She looks longingly at him. They clearly have so much to say...

INT. FIREPLACE ROOM - NIGHT
Anakin sits, talking to Padme, finishing the dialogue we've been hearing.

ANAKIN ...but it's true.

Padme leans back for a moment of indicision, then--

PADME I can't. We can't. Etc.

Post
#110566
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/110566/action/topic#110566
Time
Originally posted by: Trooperman

Thinking about it in a "big picture" way, I agree that that's a classic formula (boy-meets-girl/boy-loses-girl/boy-gets-girl), and the movie would work much better if they did not kiss until after all that they had gone through together. But I loved that moonlit scene!



It sounds like the moonlit scene is too good to miss -- it has to stay.


Before that, I will give in on the bedroom scene and the scene in the kitchen, when Padme looks out at Anakin through the window. How does that sound? Does it seem like it would flow better? We don't have the fireplace scene with bad dialogue and acting, we don't have a kiss until Geonosis, and we have more intimacy between the two of them.

Please give me your honest opinion!



Let me get this straight: The lovers arrive on Naboo, walking and talking pleasantly. They arrive at her house and go through her bedroom photos. Then they sit down to dinner with her parents and, in the kitchen, everyone can see Anakin loves her. They picnic in a field. They talk on the moonlit balcony and then Anakin wakes up in the morning to the sounds of his mother's screaming and determines he must save her.

That could be good. Real good. I love the longing look Padme gives him on the balcony before they kiss. Without the kiss, that look becomes very longing indeed.

But in my opinion, the most romantic version of this story thread has to include the intimacy of Anakin revealing himself to her and being rebuffed -- getting the heave-ho -- receiving his walking papers. That happens in the fireplace scene. I want to say more about that...



What I didn't like about the fireplace scene was not only its corniness and awful acting, but the fact that they're talking all about this romance that isn't possible, and then go into reasons why it isn't possible, but all without so much as a kiss between them. How does this sound- I'll delete the fireplace scene and keep the moonlit balcony scene- only Anakin will not kiss Padme. He'll look at her romantically and lean in, but Padme will turn away and say, "No...I can't do this." or "It's not possible" or some other dialogue from the fireplace scene.


Okay, I see what you're saying -- you think this is a scene with bad acting, bad dialogue, and a point that seems pointless. Your suggestion of using dialogue from this scene on the balcony is good, but I want to urge you to try to actually keep this scene. Though I can't defend the dialogue, I want to point out the scene contains some fine acting. Watch it without the sound and it is easy to feel the inner conflicts these actors are trying to convey. With much less dialogue, these performances can carry this scene. But does the scene have a point? You object to them talking about their impossible romance without having even kissed yet -- but I would ask you if kissing has to happen before you know a romance is in the air? As Padme's mother points out -- everyone can see he has feelings for her. She likes him too and they dance around it all the time they're there. Until this scene when Anakin forces the issue. Not with a kiss, but a confession: "I think of you all the time." That's too far and forces Padme to put an end to things. When Hayden says at the end of the scene that he couldn't live a lie, he gives one of his most subtle looks in the movie. It's good stuff if it is cut properly. Furthermore, it sets up the secret nature of their romance that is so important in Episode III. If this scene could be added to your outline, perhaps right after the longing look they share on the moonlit balcony, it will add a lot of focus to this love story.

Again, the way I suggest cutting it goes like this: Anakin and Padme sit silently, neither brave enough to speak.
Anakin breaks the quiet with a single sentence: "From the moment I met you, all those years ago, a day hasn't gone by when I haven't thought of you."
Padme does not reply.
She looks at him. He looks at her. She looks at him. We move in closer from shot to shot. Will they kiss? What will she say?
Finally she comes to her senses and says "I can't, we can't. It's just not possible..." She stands (action covered by edits).
Anakin cannot reply, he watches as she turns to him, then stands. He has one last chance and says: "You know, [edit] we could keep it a secret."
Padme says "Then we'd be living a lie - one we couldn't keep up
even if we wanted to. I couldn't do that. Could you? Could you live like that?"
Silence as the truth settles in for Anakin: it's over.
ANAKIN: "No. You're right."

If nothing else, just try this for fun. Put it in as a deleted scene. I predict that if this version were cut into your outline, then you would feel the difference.

One more suggestion would be regarding music: the music kills this scene as badly as the dialogue. What is that theme? It's mildly discomforting and so low in the mix that it just provides a kind of b.g. noise. I think it's meant to carry their mixed emotions, but I would rather hear a full-blown romantic theme played in a minor way. A great piece to use would be the Han/Leia love-theme from ESB played only on oboe as it is occasionally. This would heighten the parrallel between these these two movies and provide more connections. I think if the right (meaning the least recognizable) pieces of that ESB theme were used here, it would give a lot of punch to this romance-- like hearing the Death Star battle themes over the podrace in Magfan's "Balance" edit.


Ha ha! I take it back- your lack of faith is disturbing! (just kidding). Yes, once done, I plan either to put the names of the people who have contributed to this project in the credits, or to credit everyone at the end of the audio commentary


[blushing] If you insist -- no I insist! I wanna be in the credits! That would be too cool for school -- so again, forget my notes and just know how much of a god I think you are.

[waves hand] credits will be fine. Thanks, Trooperman!
Post
#109632
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/109632/action/topic#109632
Time
Trooperman--

It is a thrill to hear you like my suggestions at all. I can't wait to see this thing. The whole concept of aging this thing is a brilliant take.

Seeing your responses to my last post prompted a few of my own, if I may...


Trooperman: I definitely agree about the bickering. Although I am a bit partial to the "Well, you know, Master; I couldn't find the speeder I really liked." All dialogue after that will definitely be cut, but I still don't know about the aforementioned line.


I agree it's not a bad line if it can be kept to just that much speaking. It's kind of witty and fun and shows Anakin is having a good time. Taking it out, on the other hand, makes him serious -- which is where I was going with it. I think a humorless Anakin will come off better when he has romance scenes later. It creates a kind of arc in which he melts around Padme - but is troubled and serious until then.


Trooperman: [cutting the last Anakin line to Zam] Easy enough. But why? (just curious)

I think Hayden has a great mean glare, but it isn't used well in the movie. It should have been saved for one or two key moments. Revealing it here over Zam is supposed to indicate the depth of his desire to protect Padme -- but it doesn't strike the right note for some reason. It comes off almost comical. It's an empty threat. I would remove the harsh line-reading here to preserve Hayden's "angry face" for later reveals. Taking it out also makes Anakin more smart and self-controlled here. I think we need to take advantage of every opportunity to make Anakin smart and self-controlled so that we feel he's earned the right to "snap" and go get his mom.



Trooperman: The only problem I can see with that is the fact that we don't know that Padme is leaving Jar-Jar behind with her responsibilities. I wa toying with shortening and re-editing this scene.

That's a good point. In that light, I would try keeping the opening lines where Padme talks to Jar Jar. Then cut out of the scene before she talks to Anakin. Even her first lines "I do not like this idea of hiding..." are off the mark somehow. Maybe Jar Jar can cover that idea with lines to the effect of "I know how much you want to stay. I wish Palpatine could see how brave you are and how much this vote means to you." (Not great, but that's the idea)

Trooperman: Anakin/Padme romance scenes: I have made detailed plans as far as this goes. Here's what I've planned so far:

-Anakin/Padme talk on the way out of ship.
-Dinner scene. Edited so that scene ends with, "Yes. I'm afraid she is."
- Grassy picnic scene has been completely reworked. Starts with short montage of mountains while full-blown love theme plays (a la beginning of "Sound of Music". Fade to them rolling around on grass. Then, hard cut to heavily edited picnic scene. Boyfriend chat is removed. Scene ends with Anakin saying, "Well...if it works..." Clockwipe so as to reveal his smile at the last minute, similar to many of the Palpatine scenes.
-Heavily, radically edited version of the "first kiss" scene is in the edit. First of all, it's now a moonlit scene; not daytime. Secondly, Anakin isn't talking about sand; he's telling Padme, "I love you." It made more sense to have the kiss as the culmination of everything that had come before it.

See page 2 of this thread for screenshots of the rough cut.

I see what you're suggesting here -- it seems like a streamlined version of the romance. As I imagine this outline I only have one problem: I don't see enough romance. The dinner scene is not intimate and without the kitchen scene, there's no hint that Padme likes Anakin. Seeing people in a beautiful setting (in the grass) can be romantic, but needs to be supported by actual scenes of intimacy. I don't like the "Well... if it works" dialogue because I believe Padme being a politician would be heavily turned off by such a fascist-leaning speech. I can only guess how much work went into turning the "first kiss" scene to moonlight with new dialogue. I have to urge you to cut the kiss in favor of letting their kiss on Geonosis be their first. Their romance at this point has had no intimacy and no chemistry. A kiss here pre-empts all the intimacy that can come from seeing Anakin's mother die, seeing him fight to save her in the droid factory, and finally facing death together. I strongly urge you to use this time on Naboo to lay intimacy groundwork with the scene in Padme's bedroom, the kitchen, and at the fireside where Anakin and Padme resist each other. With these scenes the arc of boy-meets-girl/boy-loses-girl/boy-gets-girl will be in place.

I know you're the boss and I hope I'm speaking objectively with these suggestions. I want your cut to succeed as the most dramatic and romantic edit possible, so that's the angle I'm coming from.

Thank you -- for doing all the work! I'm thrilled to be able to bounce any ideas your way as you do this because I strongly believe a good movie is hiding in this footage somewhere. Credit? For me? I can't believe it! Tell me more! (I hope I'm not booted out for disputing your ideas -- I was only kidding! Rats.)
Post
#108645
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/108645/action/topic#108645
Time
More Anakin Character Story notes (upon further viewings)

After setting up Anakin in the opening scenes here are suggestions for maintaining the cooler, more mature Anakin:

Speeder chase:
Cut most of the banter. Let the excitement of the chase take over without the bickering. Maybe keep "What took you so long" but omit the response. The next conversation should be when Obi Wan says "Well, you lost him." Keep their exchange up through the line "I hate when he does that." That gives them some history and makes Anakin good since he kept his mouth shut before pulling this cool stunt.

When he crashes Zam's ship and has to roll on the ground, cut the action so he recovers almost instantaneously and starts running after Zam -- make him seem unstoppable rather than having that beat where he holds his ribs and catches his breath unconvincingly.

I think all the ObiWan/Anakin dialogue through this cantina scene is fine until Zam is dying in their arms. Anakin's angry "Tell us NOW" should be cut, leaving only his first, more sedate line reading.


Padme packing to leave:
OMIT this entire scene (please!).
REPLACE it with the shots of Anakin asleep in a bed having a nightmare about his mother. This is the perfect place to reinforce Anakin's primary problem: his dreams.

Arriving at Naboo:
Most of the Naboo stuff should favor the deleted scenes over what's there. I recommend a different order to the deleted scenes. First, of course, they fly in and Anakin tells Padme as they walk that he misses his mom (good stuff) and that he's glad Padme is a senator. OMIT the meeting with Queen Jamillia as unnecessary, unromantic and slow. Then they arrive at Padme's house and see her sister's kids. THEN GO TO PADME'S BEDROOM -- play out the scene where Anakin sees Padme's pictures and her past BEFORE the dinner scene where we meet Padme's family. This has the effect of making Padme and Anakin more mature -- able to settle themselves like adults before rushing in to say "Hi mom!" It also fuels the subtext of the dinner scene and the following KITCHEN scene as Padme has already revealed her personal side to Anakin without being urged by her family.

OMIT the balcony kiss scene. OMIT the grassy picnic scene.

Play out the fruit-dinner-for-two scene, but omit the reference to Obi Wan being "grumpy" if he saw this. That makes Anakin seem silly.

HEAVILY RE-EDIT the fireside-chat scene. As it begins Anakin and Padme are sitting quietly in this intimate setting with things to say, but neither of them brave enough to say it. Anakin breaks the quiet with a single sentence: "From the moment I met you, all those years ago, a day hasn't gone by when I haven't thought of you." Padme does not reply. She looks at him. He looks at her. She looks at him. We move in closer from shot to shot. Finally she comes to her senses and says "I can't, we can't. It's just not possible..." and she stands (action covered by edits). Anakin says nothing, but watches her as she turns to him again. Then he stands and has another idea, "You know, [edit] we could keep it a secret." Padme says "Then we'd be living a lie - one we couldn't keep up
even if we wanted to. I couldn't do that. Could you? Could you live like that?" Silence for a moment. ANAKIN: "No. You're right." Cut out on one of the best line-readings Christensen gives in the movie.


Finally, on Naboo, the last scene to tinker with is Anakin deciding to leave. First, as the sunset begins the scene, we should be hearing a woman SCREAM and Tuskan Raider GRUNTS, Shmi saying "Anni!" and some man yelling "ANAKIN!" (That last bit from the voices that Yoda hears as Anakin kills the sand people later). This montage of sound should play until Padme comes out onto the porch with Anakin. Her voice should almost seem to make the yelling stop -- mirroring what Anakin says: "your presence calms me." Then, use editing to extend the last Padme beat -- let things soak in for her a little longer (using the close ups) before she says "I'll go with you." Then cut out before Anakin says anything else.

NOTE: that montage of sounds from Anakin's nightmare could be laid over Anakin one more time earlier in the film. I think it might be possible to take some shots of him at the window in the omitted "Padme's bedroom" scene and present them as if Anakin were at the window hearing Shmi's screams. This might be dropped in between scenes somewhere. Just to amp up the pressure - if it seems desirable.

Arriving on Tatooine
The shots of Padme and Anakin traveling together by cart are awkward and unnecessary. Cut from the master of the ship landing to a one-shot of Wato as Anakin says his first line to the pathetic little creature. Then cut to the master with Anakin, Padme and Wato and play out the scene. A Jedi finds his man immediately -- we don't need to see the "shoe leather" of how he got there.

Shmi dies
Cut the lines when Anakin tells the dying Shmi, "Stay with me mom, everything's going to be fine" -- just let him hold her helplessly as she dies saying "I love..." and lays her head back. OMIT the wide shot where he closes her eyes and stay with the close ups -- first Anni, then repeat one of Shmi dead, then Anni's final glaring flash of anger before cutting outside. This reduces the awkwardness of this scene greatly.

Shmi funeral
OMIT the awful eulogy. Bring up the music. After the sweeping master shot, cut to Anakin falling to his knees (omit his stepping forward). Then cut away to Padme before he reaches down awkwardly for a handful of dirt. Then come back to him for the lines "I promise I won't fail you again... I miss you so much." After adjusting the preceding Padme/Anakin scene (discussed upthread), this promise made over Shmi's grave will finally work -- meaning that he's trying to vow not to be a bad Jedi anymore. He's telling his mom what he wouldn't tell Padme -- he regrets killing all those sandpeople.

Obi-Wan's message
As Obi-Wan's message finishes on Padme's ship and in the Jedi council, OMIT the Windu line "stay where you are," so Anakin and Padme do not disobey a direct order. As Obi-Wan's message ends, we see Padme watching, she looks to Anakin... CUT TO: Yoda's lines, then Mace Windu's lines, then CUT TO: Anakin's close up reaction. Avoid the master shot where Anakin looks too laid back. Then let Padme talk about how close Geonosis is, let Anakin say "if he's still alive..." and CUT TO Padme saying "I'm going to save Obi Wan. If you plan to protect me, you'll have to come along." Intercut the Anakin close-ups where he looks upset to break up her flight-prep action and cut it so his reaction changes from upset to smiling. Then he sits down to fly away...


Jengo captures Anakin
Your ideas for the droid factory sound awesome. As that scene ends, I recommend using part of the Dukoo/Padme meeting scene or, at the very least, the trial scene before Padme and Anakin find themselves shackled together in that cart for the...

Padme/Anakin kiss scene
HEAVILY RE-EDIT this scene and it will work beautifully. First, the music is badly mis-cued in the original edit and secondly the dialogue is horrible. But the scene and the performances are good -- so try this: They stand together and Anakin reaches out to say "Don't be afraid." Padme replies "I'm not afraid to die." He looks at her. She looks at him with love. He looks at her with confusion, she looks at him with a little tear... closer we move until she says "I love you." He gives her a disbelieving look, but she looks at him with tears in her eyes -- we know she means it (this may require dropping out the dialogue on some shots and cutting so her lip-movement doesn't look like talking). Finally, they move in together to kiss and as they kiss the MUSIC CRESCENDOS! The current edit crescendos after they draw into the arena -- but by that time the important stuff is already over. This will work, the performances are there -- just held back by all that awful talking.

Finally, the battle scene where Amidala falls out of the ship and Obi-Wan has to fight Anakin's urge to stop and save her should stay -- that's great stuff and will work as-is to support this new Anakin story. I recommend keeping it as written.

BUT

The moment Anakin rushes in to attack Dukoo as Obi-Wan says "let's work together" comes out of no where. Even more so with these new edits. Try to cut it so that Dukoo zaps Anakin before Obi Wan and Anakin can get their plan together. That makes Dukoo more dangerous and keeps Anakin likable and smart. When he rushes in and gets whipped, he looks comically immature. It's beating a dead horse -- we get it, he has much to learn -- why does he have to look like such an idiot? Please consider this last opportunity to keep Anakin smart while still not a master yet.

With these changes, this movie will have a strong and likable Anakin. This will make him the Jedi who clearly has deep troubles and real love which in Episode III cause him to throw everything away for the chance to save Padme.

Good luck, Trooperman. I'm eager for you to knock this out of the park.
Post
#106179
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/106179/action/topic#106179
Time
Originally posted by: Trooperman


Oh boy! So you have seen ROTS! I'm seeing it opening night on Thursday. That's very encouraging though!



YES, saw ROTS at a USC screening and it made for a very personal experience that I cannot predict will happen to anyone else. In a nutshell, I think Lucas is releasing the fan-edit version himself this time for I wouldn't change a thing. If you have avoided spoilers as I had -- keep it up for there were lots of surprises to me.



BTW, Ep III has visual design and sound cues for the dream you're trying to construct of Anakin seeing Shmi tied up. This is one change that will make Ep II and Ep III fit together better in quite a few ways.

Great! The only problem being that I have to wait until November to get that footage. Sounds like it's worth it, though.


Not necessarily so -- the effect is probably something you can imitate well just by seeing and hearing it once yourself. But I will say no more until after you see it.
Post
#106037
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/106037/action/topic#106037
Time
Originally posted by: Trooperman
One change that I'm going to make, though, is one that will actually fit in better with your changes in place.

Anakin: It's all Obi-Wan's fault. He's jealous. He held me back!

This is much more significant because Anakin is directly saying that Obi-Wan kept him from saving his mother. Now, the anger that is building up towards Obi-Wan is making more sense.



Sounds good.

The next challenge for this new Anakin story is to get him to move his emotions smoothly from the funeral of his mother to the rescue of Obi Wan -- whom he kinda, sorta blames for the death of his mother.

The emotional journey of Anakin in this movie needs to be along these lines: A) Anakin feels confused and held back by not being allowed to act on his dreams B) Anakin falls dangerously in love with Padme C) Anakin lets loose his rage when he finds his mom dead D) Anakin lets Padme lead him to a kind of mature acceptance, if not peace.

So when Padme challenges Anakin to come with her to save Obi Wan, I wonder if it can become a kind of "awakening of the Force" scene. If Anakin can begin the scene, receiving Obi-Wan's message in a very down and defeated frame of mind (i.e. with sad music) -- a frame of mind which Padme pushes him out of. I think this could happen if she simply starts leaving to save Obi Wan without Anakin stopping her to discussing it as he does now. Their discussion has to happen differently. Anakin can listen as she says "He gave you strict orders to protect me and I'm going to save Obi Wan..." Then lay in some of the Force music before he smiles or get out of there without him smiling or...

Not sure that's a great solution, but I have to say-- having now seen Ep III -- Obi Wan and Anakin's friendship is real and awesome in the new movie. It should have it's roots in this one -- and it seems like Anakin has to make the journey from blaming Obi Wan to trying to transcend that point of view.

Other than that point, this edit fits beautifully as a set up for Ep III.

BTW, Ep III has visual design and sound cues for the dream you're trying to construct of Anakin seeing Shmi tied up. This is one change that will make Ep II and Ep III fit together better in quite a few ways.

I can't wait for you to see Ep III.
Post
#105399
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/105399/action/topic#105399
Time
Re: the "tell me you love to kill children cause it makes me hot" scene --

It's a tricky situation and needs the kind of massaging that the "you can enter me into the podrace" scene got in MagFan's Episode I edit.

A lot of the action here is phony-- Hayden is unconvincing as he "fixes" that machine. The metaphore that he can "fix things" so why couldn't he "fix his mom" is pretty tired. Then the revelation that he killed everyone really should have been the last thing these two "lovers" ever said to each other.

But if I may suggest some cuts by cutting up the dialogue, I think the scene can be romantic if we just let it be "Padme comforts a tormented Anakin." The one major revelation can be that he blames Obi-Wan for his mother dying.

INTERIOR: TATOOINE, HOMESTEAD, GARAGE - DAY

PADMÉ comes in with a tray of food. ANAKIN is standing at a
workbench, repairing a part of the speeder bike.

PADMÉ: I brought you something. Are you hungry?

PADMÉ puts the tray down. Anakin is tormented, but silent until...

ANAKIN: (angry) Someday I will be... I will be
the most powerful Jedi ever! I promise you, I will even
learn to stop people from dying.

PADMÉ: Anakin...

ANAKIN: (furious) It's all Obi-Wan's fault.

ANAKIN hurls the wrench across the garage. It CLATTERS to
the floor. He looks at his trembling hands. PADMÉ stares at
him, shocked.

PADMÉ: Annie, what's wrong?

There is silence for a moment, then ANAKIN breaks down,
sobbing. PADMÉ takes him into her arms.

ANAKIN: Why do I hate them? I didn't... I couldn't... I
couldn't control myself. I... I don't want to hate them...
But I just can't forgive them.

PADMÉ: Ssshhh... you're human.

ANAKIN: No, I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this. I'm
sorry, I'm so sorry!

PADMÉ: You're like everyone else...

PADMÉ rocks him, and ANAKIN weeps.

Note: I got this dialogue from an online script -- it may not be accurate, but I think these beats get you through the scene much better. It doesn't really matter whether he killed the women and children or not. It doesn't matter if he confesses to Padme -- he's clearly filled with shame and pain, and Padme assumes it's over his mother's death. They bond over this misery. That will allow the scene to work because that's a natural emotion. The twist in the scene is the way he blames Obi Wan, but ultimately tries to take responsibility himself. That makes him smarter and more noble.

P.S. -- I'm seeing Ep III on Sunday (lucky me!) so I'll start thinking in a bigger context that evening...
Post
#104648
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/104648/action/topic#104648
Time
Then CUT as Anakin moves inside and Obi Wan continues: "Be mindful of your thoughts, Anakin, they betray you. You've made a commitment to the Jedi Order... a commitment not easily broken..."



Yes, so now, the dialogue is about Anakin's mother, not Padme.
/Quote

Exactly! As I look over the rest of the story, the rest will play better with just this much adjustment. I would go a lot farther in this direction though because there are so many "extra" beats of Anakin's lack-of-discipline. His every lecherous approach to Padme and smart remark to Obi Wan should be considered ripe for extraction. The best Anakin will be a straight forward Anakin who simply cracks under the pressure of his dreams and runs off to save his mom -- but is too late. Then (without telling Padme that he "killed women and children") he wins Padme's heart with his own sincerity. He allows her to pursuade him to help Obi Wan and they nearly die together and confess their love.

Post
#104492
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/104492/action/topic#104492
Time
Originally posted by: Rebel11_38
I like your ideas man. That would be an interesting take on those scenes. Maybe you should whip up an edit of your own.


The days of me "whipping up an edit" are far ahead of me, my friend. But damn if it doesn't look like fun. MagFan is now a huge contributor to Star Wars in my book. I think Trooperman will be too!
Post
#104316
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/104316/action/topic#104316
Time
Trooperman--

You are one ambitious dude. I love to read about your plans and the way you phrase your intentions. Makes me think it's gonna be great.

I suggested up-thread that Anakin should have a different sense of motivation when we meet him: Obi Wan should be holding him back from running off to save his mom. Here's my idea (sorry it's long):

The concept is to replace Anakin's brash, disobedient characterization with quiet and mysterious. I want to change the Anakin/Obi Wan relationship. Currently, Obi Wan is patient and forgiving of Anakin's head strong behavior. My suggestions make Obi Wan overly disciplining and Anakin obedient, but mysterious.

This fits Obi Wan's hesitation about Anakin in Episode I. If Obi Wan worries to Qui Gon that "the boy's dangerous, they can all sense it, why can't you?" Then why wouldn't he reign this brat in? He would. Maybe even a little too much.

So, here's my strategy (I'm using MagFan's Episode II as a starting point-- maybe the release version contains opportunities I'm not seeing, but MagFan's treatment gives this stuff a good boost, especially as regards Jar Jar):

We first see Anakin and Obi Wan in the elevator traveling up to Padme's. Obi Wan says Anakin seems nervous, Anakin says "Not at all" cut to: -- "You're sweating, relax. Take a deep breath..." Then CUT out of the scene before we know what's bothering Anakin.

They meet Padme and she finally notices Anakin. Padme: "Anni?" (cut the "My goodness you've grown")
Anakin steps forward with a new line (covered by cutting to Padme): "At your service... Senator."
Padme smiles and leads them to the seating area, saying she thinks this is unnecessary.

Typho explains the situation and Obi Wan says "We're here to protect you Senator, not
to start an investigation." -- CUT any quibbling with Anakin. Anakin watches and says nothing.

Create a pause to indicate the difference between what Padme is asking for and what Obi Wan is offering. Use their different gazes to indicate that there is something unsaid between these characters.

Padme finally finishes the conversation by replying: "Perhaps with merely your presence the mysteries surrounding this threat will be revealed. Now if you will excuse me, I will retire."

They separate and Anakin stops beside Jar Jar. CUT the line "She hardly even recognized me Jar Jar" and just let him silently watch Padme leave the room. Then he says the line "She's forgotten me completely." This makes him more mature and smart. It reveals all his emotions, but stops him from looking so out-of-control.

Then Obi Wan scolds him "Anakin, you're focusing on the negative again. Be mindful of your thoughts." And try to CUT out of the scene before saying "she was pleased to see us" if you can.

The next scene to adjust is Obi Wan and Anakin guarding Padme as she sleeps. Let it start as Obi Wan enters to find Anakin. He asks what's up and Anakin says "Quiet as a tomb." Cut his next line "I don't like just waiting...etc." Go straight to "She programmed Artoo to warn us if there's an intruder," and cut in to see Padme asleep. "I can sense everything going on in that room." Let this be the Jedi's plan as they rely on their senses to detect anything Artoo can't -- avoid the idea that Anakin has some unapproved plan to use Padme as bait -- it undermines Obi Wan.

When we come back to Anakin and Obi Wan, Anakin's on the terrace. "You look tired," says Obi Wan. Anakin: "I don't sleep well anymore." Obi Wan: "Because of your mother?" Anakin: "I don't know why I keep dreaming about her now. I haven't seen her since I was little." Obi Wan: "Dreams pass in time"

Then CUT as Anakin moves inside and Obi Wan continues: "Be mindful of your thoughts, Anakin, they betray you. You've made a commitment to the Jedi Order... a commitment not easily broken..."

As we CUT into Padme's chamber, Obi Wan continues berating Anakin using dialogue from their previously cut exchange in front of Padme. Obi Wan: "We will not go through this exercise again, Anakin. And you will pay attention to my lead... and you will learn your place, young one."

Cutting back to Anakin -- he senses the intruder in Padme's chamber -- Obi Wan does too and they leap into action.

What this does is establish the problem between Anakin and Obi Wan as stemming from his dreams about his mother. It says they've had to talk about it before and it's threatening the training. Later, when Anakin blames Obi Wan and the Jedi's for not trusting him, we'll know he's referring to this.

I would go through the rest of the movie and adjust Anakin and Obi Wan where ever possible to reduce Anakin's insubordination and increase Obi-Wan's hardness.

The last piece I want to complete this thread needs to be created. I don't know exactly how. It is this: We NEED to SEE Shmi in danger and KNOW it's from Anakin's dreams.

The pieces exist I believe of Anakin squirming in a bed, troubled by his dreams. Superimposing the first image we get of Shmi tied up over that for a few frames creates the bit we need. Then drop it into the story at the FIRST possible opportunity. The sooner the better because it informs everything Anakin does.

I hope I'm being clear and sounding sane. I just know this version of Anakin makes me root for him in the love story and everywhere else. It follows up the young Episode I Anakin better and sets up why he would turn away from the Jedi and toward a "secret" love. That's what was supposed to happen in this movie.

Good luck!
Post
#101749
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/101749/action/topic#101749
Time
Trooperman:

I will give specific suggestions as soon as I can re: establishing the impact of Anakin's dream.

But regarding the opening scroll issue -- You must have thought of this already, but I have to ask why can't you just use the opening scroll from MagFan's "The Clone War"? I guess I would like this because I really like MagFan's work on "Balance of the Force" but suspect your Episode II cut will supercede his in my book.

You have to admit, "The Clone War" is a pretty kick-ass title. Is it really out of the question?
Post
#101692
Topic
MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/101692/action/topic#101692
Time
Just watched "Botf" again -- had to give a big shout out to MagFan for the incredible work he did on the pod race.

The music is perfect. The new emphasis on Anakin's point of view, the incorporation of edited footage and the resequencing of the race -- it's just awesome.

Finally I was totally in awe of the whole "podrace" concept, which when you get down to it, is pretty awesome. Definitely a wonderful surprise to find something so cool in this prequel. There wasn't anything to compare to it in AOTC (except, maybe, super-jedi Yoda? Nah).
Post
#101691
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/101691/action/topic#101691
Time
Commander Courage:

You get the idea -- although the limit of using what's available and making it fit into the first sequences of the film will put a spin on it.

The clearer this idea comes across though, that Anakin is seeing his mother in pain as Luke saw his friends in pain will make Hayden's perfomance and Anakin's rebelliousness make sense storywise. As it stands, Anakin in AOTC just seems to be inexplicably headstrong and contrary. You just watch him bitch and think "what a dick." IF you knew Obi Wan was preventing him from saving his mom -- that would justify Anakin a lot.
Post
#101622
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/101622/action/topic#101622
Time
Trooperman --

So many things to comment on and my DVD player is rejecting my copy of "The Clone War" so I cannot yet give the detailed comments I intend to.

But I want to toss out an initial note, if I may:

I want someone to emphasize how important (and overlooked) Anakin's bad dreams are to understanding him. If we understood at the beging of AOTC that he was having accurate premonitions that his mother is being tortured, but Obi Wan and the council were preventing him from going to her -- then everything he did would make more sense.

This concept should be really valuable in re-editing this film. It'll make almost anything Anakin does feel more natural because we would know up front how difficult it is for him every day to stop himself from running off to his mom.

I think this can be done, but I want to give specific notes when I get my disc working again -- assuming it's even interesting to you.
Post
#101027
Topic
MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/101027/action/topic#101027
Time
If we're going to nit-pick these cuts I'd like to work on things that matter a lot more to me than the sounds of the alien dialogue.

I still think Anakin comes off too unlikably in Clone War and got a lot of ideas for how to improve it while watching.

Does anyone else wish he weren't so immediately disrespectful to Obi Wan?

I wish, furthermore, that the revelation of Anakin's bad dreams could be "moved up" much more.

Has anyone else floated such ideas or prompted a re-cut? I could provide very specific ways to make these things happen if there were an interested editor (i.e. MagnoliaFan).

M
Post
#100877
Topic
MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/100877/action/topic#100877
Time
The new subtitles appear only for characters whose voices have been re-dubbed as alien language.

This is surprisingly effective and allows the story to be shaped (as Rikter's review points out) since many of the weakest parts of the original story were the dialogue of Jar Jar, the Gungans, and the Trade Federation.

I'm surprised to hear any objection to the Kyber Crystal, but I did not catch the "Splinter in the mind's eye" reference. Basically, for me, the backstory that Jar Jar had allowed it to be stolen accounted so much better for his actions that I was happy with it --

BUT (spoilers)

...then the final parade sequence involved Amidala giving the crystal back to the Gungan Boss and I had a giant grin on my face. Until then the entire final sequence had been irredeemably silly in my opinion (I even hated the John Williams music).

I've only watched with the ADigitalMan subtitles, so I guess I have another movie to try out by using MagnoliaFan's.

I felt, with the new dialogue, that Jar Jar was quite tolerable. I mean I liked him, I really liked him.

M
Post
#100782
Topic
MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/100782/action/topic#100782
Time
I wish I could say "be right over," but...

Let me ask the board a question about how effective "Balance of the Force" is:

Were any of you converted from disliking Jar Jar into liking him?


I have to say I was. With an alien language, better dialogue, and a better story (involving the Gungan crystal)-- he seems like a real Star Wars character in the vein of creatures we saw in that cantina back in 1977. He isn't my all-time favorite, but he's far more interesting than Wicket the Ewok (whom I still can't say I like very much).
Post
#100705
Topic
MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/100705/action/topic#100705
Time
I have just finished an unforgettable first screening "Balance of the Force" and "The Clone War." I had to join the forum to share some thoughts.

First-- the edits ROCK!!!

See, I always enjoyed Phantom Menace, but had to consciously let the fart jokes and whacky characterizations slide. If I could let them go, the movie made me happy.

Now?

Now, the "whacky" characters are at least interesting and some have become genuinely cool; previously borderline scenes work beautifully (for example, the Pod Race is now a dramatic scene about young Skywalker using the force); the story flows easily and all the would-be cool moments (Padme revealing she's the queen, the star-fighter attack on the droid command ship) actually work! This movie is tense now. It works now. I don't have to let anything slide, it just works. Ha-Lay-Loo-Ya!

I didn't like "Attack of the Clones" for the simple reason that Anakin and Amidala's romance had not one moment of truth. When she heard him say "I killed the women and children" and didn't run away from this teenage psycho, I'd truly had it. They stopped even resembling characters and just said stuff to clue us in to what we were supposed to feel about them. The rest of the movie sagged along, limp and forced.

Now?

Now the romance has spark, covers the basic beats and mostly works. The movie flows so much smoother that I now cannot wait for "Revenge of the Sith" (and if that sucks, I can't wait for the Magnoliafan edit which, I have no doubt, will freakin' work!)

I remember when I saw the trailers for these movies. They worked. The trailers had the right feel and flare for what these movies should have been. In that sense, they were better than the movies.

Now, for the most part, the movies feel just as good. As good as they were supposed to.

THANK YOU Magnoliafan, where ever you are! (And thank you Rikter-- I'm burning copies and getting them out there as I type) And mostly, I suppose, thank you George Lucas for shooting and providing the material for these great Magnoliafan edits. I feel it's a great credit to Magnoliafan that these cuts feel like what the movies were supposed to be-- if only Lucas had brought Magfan in sooner!