logo Sign In

MTHaslett

User Group
Members
Join date
13-Apr-2005
Last activity
4-Sep-2024
Posts
524

Post History

Post
#146416
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/146416/action/topic#146416
Time

Trooperman:

Here is a revision of the scene that works for me and avoids the objectionable "I don't like sand" crap. This is from the script, not the movie, so there may be some discrepencies -- but if it's correct, would this work for you?

EXT. BALCONY -- NIGHT
ANAKIN and PADME stop at the balustrade. PADME looks out across the garden to the shimmering moonlit
lake and the mountains rising beyond. ANAKIN looks at her silently.

PADMÉ
When I was in Level Three, we used
to come here for school retreat.
See that island? We used to swim
there every day. I love the water.

ANAKIN
I do too. I guess it comes from
growing up on a desert planet.

PADME becomes aware that ANAKIN is looking at her.

PADMÉ
...We used to lie on the sand and
let the sun dry us... and try to
guess the names of the birds
singing.

He touches her arm. PADME has become receptive to the way he looks at her but is nervous.

PADMÉ
There was a very old man who lived
on the island. He used to make
glass out of sand - and vases and
necklaces out of the glass. They
were magical.

CUT ANAKIN DIALOGUE

PADMÉ
You could look into the glass and
see the water. The way it ripples
and moves. It looked so real...
but it wasn't.

ANAKIN
Sometimes, when you believe
something to be real, it becomes
real. Real enough, anyway...

They look into each other's eyes.

ANAKIN (V.O.)
I've loved you since... etc.
CUT TO:

INT. FIRESIDE -- NIGHT

Etc.





Post
#144464
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/144464/action/topic#144464
Time
Trooperman --

I see how you were confused by my suggestion and I think there's a great solution if you can live with some of the actual dialogue from the balcony scene. I think it has some potential, but I better look more closely before I post specific suggestions.

Regarding the Force ideas -- I love that basically it's not an issue for Episode II and frankly I love the ideas as discussed for Episode I -- not because it addresses the Force ghost problem, but because it addresses the whole lack of an emotional climax for Anakin in that story. The final version of that movie should be that Anakin can feel Qui Gon's guidance through the Force and that when he FEELS Qui Gon DIE, he lets loose with those torpedos. He cuts loose with his first bit of anger and murder because of Qui Gon's death. I don't know how to do it yet, but the changes you suggest get us a little further down that road.

In brief, I'll go over the balcony scene for more notes, but I think the dialogue as written and filmed fits the scene okay. It's even better with this bit of "voice over" at the end. The way it works is as "comfortable conversation" between two people with a lot to hide -- then they look at each other and the conversation stops BUT we HEAR what they want to say -- dubbed in from the next scene in which they ACTUALLY SAY IT. This bit of editing tells the necessary lover beats. We all go through it-- hanging out with a girl you like, talking to her about stuff, listening to her and hoping she likes you, gathering your nerve as you both say dumb stuff and finally taking the leap to say "I like you, a LOT." This little editing trick condenses all that without skipping it or screwing it up the way it was in the original cut. Your work on the balcony scene makes it a natural fit to cut into the fireside chat -- that makes Lucas' point better than he was able to.
Post
#144418
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/144418/action/topic#144418
Time
TM:
While I can't say I follow the reasoning that because the Force ghosts aren't spelled out that the movies are less rich or that explaining where they come from (or, in the case of having Qui Gon disappear in the fire) making them common place does anything to enrich things -- I can't say the changes you suggest really bother me. I don't see leaving things as they are as any sort of stretch. These movies have a religion -- THE FORCE. Many movies have regligion in them, and the good ones don't spend a lot of time explaining away the mysteries that make their particular religion work. It would be one thing if we didn't understand how Luke could possibly fire a torpedo into the ventilation shaft, but if we need to explain how Obi Wan disappeared, we might as well have an explanation for how Luke had a sword fight with Darth Vader on Degobah. Just my opinion.

Trooperman (quote):"STILL working on the balcony scene, playing with the footage and slowing down/speeding up things to get good lip synch with Anakin (because he’s saying completely different things).

I had to make “I love you.” synch with “I don’t like sand.”


Mthaslett: Yikes-- Did you give up on our solution to this problem? Can you say a bit about why? I understood you were going to use this particular dialogue as overlapping voice over from the following scene -- thus solving more problems than just synch.

If you put that dialogue here -- if Anakin tells Padme he loves her on the balcony -- then what does she say back? Nothing? Why does she go and put on that hot outfit if he already told her he loves her? Is she trying to confuse him? Why does she wait until then (at least an hour later) before telling him she can't be part of this? What do they do for that hour or more? The flow of these scenes gets real awkward if he says he loves her on the balcony. I urge you to reconsider the previous solution and remind you that you said (in writing! ;-) ) the following:

Trooperman (quote): "MTHaslett- I love your solution and I’ll use it. I agreed with everything you just said. Thanks for clarifying and including that portion of revised script; I’d have had trouble following it otherwise. I totally agree that when edited in this fashion, one scene leads directly to the other. You made my job easy for this scene in the commentary; I'll just flip to this forum page and read your notes into the microphone!

Quote:
It's a technique of letting the dialogue from the next scene play over the tail of the preceding scene -- to bring out the subtext.


And I love it."

What happened?
Post
#142859
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/142859/action/topic#142859
Time
Trooperman,

Reading your post again, I understand a little more of your concern. You think there's inconsistency between Qui-Gon's role as a dead jedi in the PT and Obi-Wan's role as a dead jedi in the OT.

As I say, I don't see any inconsistency in the OT -- they don't explain it, but it's clear that Obi-Wan and Yoda know a "trick". Episode III suggests Qui Gon learns this trick on the other side and communicates it somehow to Yoda. This seems consistent. He did not perform the "trick" when he died, so his ability to reach Yoda is a surprise and it's played as such.

If you add Qui-Gon throughout Ep I, II, and III as a voice offering advice and such, you'll be creating more questions than you answer for me.

Before you go any farther, I would ask a few questions: What advice from Qui Gon would make Ep II better? Would he help Obi-Wan's hunt for clones? Would he help Annakin's search for his mother, or his effort to save Obi Wan? He'd probably say "Don't kiss that girl!" "Don't kill those Sandpeople!"

In the OT, Qui Gon has even less of a relevent role to play. To whom would he offer advice? What possible use could it be? Remember he's been dead at that time for about 50 years.

Post
#142855
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/142855/action/topic#142855
Time
A few people have brought up this "issue" to me, and I've never understood the problem. Obi Wan and Yoda clearly meditate and perform some kind of Force trick at their death. That's why their body disappears. But their clothes do not disappear, just their body. Darth Vader is not much more than a suit with a couple man parts inside. When he gets burned -- they don't reveal what happens to what's left of Annakin's body until, lo and behold, his ghost reappears. Qui-Gon and the other Jedi, of course, have no time to meditate and do any Force tricks before they're struck down -- hence no "ghosts." Any contact with Qui-Gon is different, occuring from across the threshold of death in a unique way.

Why is this simple interpretation of what's already there incorrect?
Post
#139790
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/139790/action/topic#139790
Time
Trooperman:

Perfectly awesome.

The new cropping has great impact. You improve the shots and make the worlds feel more real. One thing Ep III did was make Coruscant seem more used and real-- your new shots give me the same impression.

The dream shots are great-- just seeing them makes the whole movie better. Now we know why Anakin's going nuts.

My favorites here are the balcony shots. Great "day for night." More romantic and, knowing how we have talked about the romance, I love what you're doing.

Great work!

Post
#139244
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/139244/action/topic#139244
Time
Rite of Spring -- interesting tease to not tell us where you'll use it. I don't know how well you know Disney's "Fantasia," but an interesting "homage" moment might be possible if you see the animated "Rite of Spring" dinosaur cartoon and find a similar cue in SOTD -- perhaps in the arena.

One of Lucas' trademarks is to "wear his influences on his sleeve" -- homage to Kurosawa, Ford etc. Disney and his dinosaurs likely had their affect on his imagination as a young'n. I guess I'd look it up and make certain before I put that "homage" into the cut, but if it turns out to be appropriate...

Post
#137946
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/137946/action/topic#137946
Time
Good news, Trooperman.

I'm still waiting for you to tap me for Lama Su -- but I have to admit, I'm grateful you haven't called on me yet because I have been way too busy lately.

Sorry to hear of anything that gives you trouble, but I'm glad you take the voice work seriously. Getting your performance right and mixing it correctly is going to blow people's minds.

I love the color corrections you've posted, so I know that balcony scene is going to look excellent. With "film look", flash-frames, the old title cards, the darker droid factory, the binary sunset, etc. I fully expect this to look like an OT film. (BTW -- how are you going to handle the sound effect for Jengo Fett's "bombs" -- their silent/delayed sound was definitely NOT OT to my ear. Does it work for you?)

Anyway, I say forget you ever mentioned finishing this year. Pick a new deadline like next Labor Day and give yourself lots of breathing room. There are so many changes in your cut that promise giant improvements -- I feel like time is on your side. Taking your time and letting the tweaks get massaged is the way to go -- don't rush anything, if you want my opinion. Which I know you do. Because my opinions Rock! Yay my opinions!

Post
#130216
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/130216/action/topic#130216
Time
I think it should be remembered this is an edit by Trooperman -- he will do what he wants. We can all bitch if we want, but then it becomes time to do our own edit.

I LOVE the way these crawls are looking. I like the "acting Senator" suggestion because in a word it activates her role -- the Queen is doing something special -- that's why she's a target.

But I point out that saying "Ten years after Palpatine rose to power in the Galactic Senate, unrest once again pervades the Galaxy" has a grammer problem. If we say "after" Palpatine "rose" to power, it implies the second half of the sentence should also be past tense -- "after" he "rose" to power, unrest "pervaded" the Galaxy -- it implies a past tense to the whole sentence.

"After Jim rose from bed, unrest once again pervades the galaxy." Those tenses don't agree.

"After Jim's rise from bed, unrest once again pervades the galaxy." That works.

Ten years after Palpatine'S RISE to power... objectifies the verb and puts the sentence in the present.
Post
#128485
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/128485/action/topic#128485
Time
TM:

I will eagerly check out whatever you post. But a word of caution is warrented because this is a lo-o-o-ng process. Because the biggest question any of us have is "What will the new Anakin sound like?" you better not post any of that until you nail it. There are going to be ruthless nay-sayers no matter what you post. If the posted sample mix is unfinished, it takes an experienced ear and a kind heart to listen to it and be supportive. Save yourself the headache of posting anything too soon.

I love the upside of dubbing Anakin - new lines, better delivery, darker presence; but I fear the possible downside too: what if it's jarring? What if the mix feels unnatural? I leave it to your capable hands to fend off the troubles, of course. But if you post something that isn't finished and seems to prompt more worry, I fear this thread could attract trolls and other unnecessary flack.

I have access to equipment for recording lines. I've done acting and can help if you need it. I would have volunteered sooner, but I've been pretty busy. Let me know-- this offer is real.

It's too bad the crawl can't be re-done one more time because it would be the perfect place to establish that "Queen Amidala has given up her throne to work for the good of the galactic Senate" -- this bit in the opening crawl would give more oomph to the opening scenes. The way this plays out in AotC feels like a retired politician taking a lame-duck token position as a Senator rather than a powerful person taking on a new and difficult mission.

But that droid factory stuff looks too cool for school!!! So much more realistic and so much more atmosphere. With the little character weight you're adding to their mission here, this sequence is going to feel and look a hell of a lot better.
Post
#125559
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/125559/action/topic#125559
Time
Trooperman--

Keep the faith! The impact your plans have on this board don't matter. It's in the product-- either your edit will rock or it will suck. There is enough material going into this version to make it stand completely apart from anything else out there. Personally, I quite enjoyed "BotF," but thought "The Clone War" left a lot to be desired. I had the uncomfortable problem of watching it and thinking "well, why didn't you change THAT?" every minute or so. I don't think anyone's seen ways to fix the structural problems of the AotC script before. With the dreams, the re-edited romance, the anger at Obi Wan-- this edit will actually have a story. When it's all said and done, that's the most important change that can be made. The final act of TPM or BotF needs this kind of work too -- the death of Qui Gon has to affect Anakin and that affect has to have an impact on the defeat of the Trade Federation. Without that beat, Ep I is still unfinished. But getting completion on that level in Ep II has been more difficult and will be more surprising to fans who check out SotDS.

Your dream notes sound fantastic. You've gone the extra mile to make that beat work. Now Anakin will be so much more sympathetic.

As for adding a Dukoo line before his death in Ep III -- the line could be as simple as "Wait--!" which has to exist somewhere in LOTR or SW.

I hear CC's ideas about the title of "Queen" being ceremonial and having her give up her throne and fighting for democracy -- but it can't just be assumed that she did all that without somehow putting that material into the movie. Maybe the opening crawl? At any rate, the romance story will miss the "walk" on Naboo where they talk about Anakin's mom. That scene does double duty of talking about democracy and talking about Anakin. I don't necessarily love the idea of young elected queens-- but I don't hate it. I can conceive of a space government that trusts the good heart of young ladies, their clarity and present mindedness. I wish they'd made this clearer. I just kind of dread the potential holes that will appear if we drop the "democracy" of Naboo.

I agree with CC that Gungans seem to need alien voices-- but the idea of an Australian Jar Jar does a lot to make him more interesting. I would take these ideas and marry them -- if Jar Jar's alien voice could lose the "whacky Jamaican" accent and sound tougher, deeper-- he'd be a LOT easier to take. Could he talk "Gungan" with an Australian accent?

Commander Courage is absolutely right, we brainstormers get the fun job. You have to face the bugs, glitches, mixing problems, and crashes of editing. You have all my respect and I'll help any way I can--

Which means I'd better volunteer to be Lama Su if you still need someone. I can get access to equipment if you can tell me what you need me to do.



Post
#125171
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/125171/action/topic#125171
Time
Trooperman,

Excellent! Great to feel like our ideas mesh and I think your comments make it clear-- we're both after the same thing: a better story. Your changes to my suggestions make sense to me. Don't worry about any pressure to finish from me or my neighbors-- we'll all be happy whenever. (I can't believe I made the short list-- Righteous!).

TM:
INT. FLYING SPACESHIP
Anakin: We have no idea where Kenobi got himself incarcerated this time. So we need a plan.
Padme: See those columns of steam straight ahead?
Anakin: That'll do.

(I considered incorporating “He’s as clumsy as he is stupid,” but it’s too much of a nod to the OT). This is very hostile, though- is it too much so, in your opinion?


I think "clumsy/stupid" definitely crosses the line. I never meant for Anakin to outrightly express much hostility-- this version of Anakin is too classy and too repressed to do that. He's going to stew and keep his anger brewing in the subtext of his dialogue -- more like your suggested line above.

However, I think that particular line is stilted. Does this seem better to you?:
EXT. SPACESHIP
Anakin (OS): His signal's coming from deep underground. We have no idea where he's gone. We need a plan.
INT. SPACESHIP
Padme: See those columns of steam straight ahead?
Anakin: That'll do.

I think this version sets up how "seeing columns of steam" suggests a plan. Also, Anakin begins by listing a bunch of "reasons" this is difficult, but when Padme makes a single suggestion Anakin drops all his protests. He's a quick thinker and a natural leader who takes charge at the first opportunity.

I love the idea of hearing no Han/Leia theme, yet getting a rerranged "relative" of it. That would be appropriate and add a lot of OT style charm.

A side note (of no particular importance) -- another OT trait, or at least a "Star Wars" (ep IV/ANH) trait is the repeated use of the same footage if there isn't enough to create the scene you want. Regarding the scene where Anakin and Padme first receive Obi Wan's message and my suggestions for recutting to emphasize Anakin's p.o.v. -- I think there's enough footage to do my suggested cuts without slowing down/reversing or manipulating the shots. But if I'm wrong, you shouldn't be afraid to try using footage more than once because "episode IV" has a few shots like that too which I never noticed for 25 years or so.

I like Dukoo as a Sith. I don't have much enthusiasm about Padme always being a queen (although I'm sorry to differ in opinion with our comrade, Commander Courage). I agree that her being a queen makes "princess Leia" sound more sensible -- except isn't it supposed to be a secret that Padme is princess Leia's mom? That point doesn't really matter because it seems muddled in the current Saga anyway. But my objections center upon this: the theme of democracy vs. totalitarianism is the strongest, most important theme in the overall PT. Making Naboo a monarchy kind of defeats a lot of that-- which I'm against. Padme's best line in Ep III may be the one to the effect of: "So this is how freedom dies, to the sound of loud applause." Kind of an ironic statement from a born Royal. As a non-democratically chosen leader, she should be at home seeing an Emperor take over the Federation.

That's my feeling, anyway. Maybe the title "Queen" could be preserved for Padme throughout the trilogy without dumping her position's democratic roots somehow?

I love the screenshots. The "blue" shots still look kind of purple on my monitor, but I agree with CC that blue would be the best color. If it could be less saturated, it would look more OT. The green looks more convincing as the "intended" color in those shots.

I keep looking at the way the beasts come at Anakin/Padme/Obi Wan in the arena. I'm convinced the order they attack can be changed so Obi Wan comes last. The effect of this change maintains story momentum because it keeps the roles as they've been established: Obi Wan is the captor; Anakin and Padme are the rescuers. Having Obi Wan get attacked first chops off the connection between this scene and the ones that precede it.

I have to say, I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest there could be an actual story at the heart of this movie before. I think with the changes you're making, Trooperman, you're in danger of actually pulling one together here. The real trick would be if Jar Jar could be made into a truly fun and interesting character in Episode I -- I suspect he could actually be made cool as opposed to just tolerable if his material were massaged enough. What a PT we'd have then, eh?

Post
#123880
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/123880/action/topic#123880
Time
Well, since I'm still awake...

Two things:

First, I want to clarify my ideas about the Han/Leia theme. I don't mean to say the Han/Leia theme should replace Across the stars-- I actually like this AOTC theme (although it's mis-timed) in the Geonosis kiss scene. It's just the fireplace-scene, where the main theme isn't even being used, that I have a problem. The echo of a Han/Leia theme there (a variation- a hint of the theme-- not the theme itself) would lift this troubled romance from it's current D.O.A. level to something inspired and harkening to the OT. I don't want to over-use it -- just get a whiff of it. Clue the viewer into the clear parallel. This Vader romance foreshadows the Han Solo romance in the "later" film -- why not tap into a little of that musical power? Just a little.

Second, I appreciate the idea you have, TM, of adding a new line to the Obi-Wan/Anakin shouting match that says "I won't lose her like I lost my mother!" I feel that this line has potential, but it also might sound forced. Like the soliloguy, I say try it and keep it if it works. My gut tells me it's probably too much. He might as well say "You kept me from saving my mom-- you won't stop me from saving my lover!" I don't know.

Anyway, my whole neighborhood is keeping you in their prayers at night, Trooperman. May the Force be with you and all those midiclorians in your blood.

mthaslett
Post
#123755
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/123755/action/topic#123755
Time
You mean "burn me alive" as in "cut off my legs and set me on fire?"

I have to admit, that's better.

I wanted the original line cut because it puts a hole right in the middle of the thread I'm trying to reconstruct. If he's not that into Obi Wan, he sure could give a crap what Obi Wan thinks about his light saber being cut in half. When Lucas put that line in, he changed the tone of the entire sequence. Leave it in, and Anakin's pretty much accepting his role as Obi Wan's apprentice. Take it out, and the jury's still out, he's still mad and we still have a story.

I'm afraid I don't personally think the change you suggest overcomes this problem.

I sure appreciate you taking the time to hear all my ideas.

BTW-- the idea of a new Han/Leia alternate theme made my heart leap. Hurray!

Keep up the good work.
Post
#123751
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/123751/action/topic#123751
Time
Ah-- I get it -- the first of the final cuts. It is a hell of a thing you're doing and since you have a real life outside this project, I can only imagine how tough it must be to get this thing done. I must say, however, I think the entire Star Wars community will be blown away by this cut when it's done. I know a lot of haters who will be hard pressed to argue that this new version doesn't rescue this movie in a big way.

I'm glad to hear you still have to go through the edits one more time because I have a few more changes to suggest. Think this over:

As you'll see, I've thought a lot more about the end of this story. I now believe the final pieces of the Anakin story have to begin when he gets the message that Obi Wan needs to be rescued.

Following on the tails of the funeral scene-- Anakin's emotions about his mother need to be honored. It's the fact that Lucas drops all this material like a hot potato that completely unhinges the emotional story for the rest of this movie.

Our job (YOUR job) is to reconnect this wire.

Let's review: Anakin feels held back by the Jedi and Obi Wan in particular because he knows his mom needs him, but they won't let him go. He finally says "fuck it" and goes-- discovering he was right (GODDAMMIT!). Shmi dies and he has no one to blame... except Obi Wan. But right when his anger begins to surge -- the message comes: OBI WAN'S IN TROUBLE. What does our young Jedi Apprentice do?

Great question and a great opportunity for drama. Let's take it from there.

In broad strokes, I propose that Anakin goes to aid Obi Wan NOT because it's the right thing to do-- but (since he's mad about his mom) because he gets pushed into it. At first, Anakin is ambivalent enough to follow orders and let the other Jedi handle the rescue (which, we learn, would have worked out fine). He doesn't feel compelled to save Obi Wan until Padme decides it's her job. To avoid seeming "sickeningly PC" ;-)-- this has to be character driven. That means every cut that leads up to this decision has to support a clear point: that Anakin isn't sure what he wants to do, but Padme is.

Then, once he takes on Padme's challenge, he's there for the job and handles himself as best he can, but doesn't come around to be Obi Wan's friend again until their shouting match about saving Padme. Until the moment he agrees with Obi Wan, he's really only there for Padme and hasn't regained any respect for Obi Wan.

It's after he hears Obi Wan's compliments and Obi Wan's logic about what Padme would want that Anakin becomes, once again, a Jedi Apprentice.

How do I suggest telling this story? Well, I'm obviously revisiting stuff you've already done and I'm asking you to consider changing it. I believe there's only one way to address Anakin's feelings toward Obi Wan as the story requires and that's to show Anakin's mixed emotions when he first sees Obi Wan in danger on Geonosis.

We begin at the end of the funeral. Anakin speaks over Shmi's grave and R2 rolls up.

C3P0: "It seems he's carrying a message from..."
CUT TO: CU on Anakin staring down at his mother's grave, not interested in the droids.
C3P0: "...Obi Wan Kenobi. Master Anni..."
CUT TO: the droids as they finish their lines (skip the master of Anakin and Padme facing the droids).
C3P0: "...Does that name mean anything to you?"

Wipe to a master shot of the INT. SPACESHIP where Padme and Anni receive the message-- but only give us about two seconds of this shot for one word of dialogue:
OBI WAN: (on tape) "Anakin..."
CUT TO: CU of unhappy Anakin as the message continues to play. Then...
CUT TO: Master shot again until Padme turns... (cutting on motion)
CUT TO: CU of Anakin as Obi Wan instructs them to relay the message... (cutting on motion)
CUT TO: CU of Padme as she turns to the button. CU on button, etc.

That bit of doctoring keeps us keyed on how Anakin is processing this coincidence. He's mad at Obi Wan, but hearing from him now makes his emotions conflicted and burning. He's playing along as long as he's not forced to do anything yet...

The message from Obi Wan continues, intercut with Coruscant until Obi Wan's attacked:

EDIT: In showing this attack, reverse the close-ups of Padme and Anni. Start on Anni's reaction. He's surprised, but not moved... Cut to Padme, turning to Anni to see his reaction-- she's surprised by his reaction as well as by the message itself.

The message ends and Mace addresses Anakin:

Mace: "Your most important thing is [cut] to protect the Senator at all costs."
(losing the line "stay where you are.")

Anni's reaction is dour and unhappy. He's full of mixed emotion, but looks resigned to following orders. Truly, he's relieved to not be sent to save his master about whom he has mixed emotions for the moment. But...

Padme explains-- it's less than a parsec away. Are you really going to let your friend die?
CUT the line "He's like a father to me." Just have Anakin walk away from her plea. He replies "They gave me strict orders." He ain't budging-- he will follow orders, because he doesn't want to face the real issue: his anger at Obi Wan.

Padme ain't listening: "They ordered you to protect me, and I'm going, so you have to come." She stubbornly starts up the ship... Anakin watches... he does not stop her, but NEITHER does he smile (the sequence works as is up until you have to CUT the smile). He's in love and in awe of Padme. He won't stop her since her actions are noble. He's a sucker for noble actions-- even if he's not exactly in love with Obi Wan at the moment.

As a side note, I think this darker version of the scene makes the 3P0 lines at the end about "never having done space travel" more appropriate, so I hope you keep them.

NEXT STEP:

As Anakin and Padme fly into the plumes above Geonosis and we're watching the ship from the outside, we can have Anakin say some lines. These should introduce the subtext that's missing from these scenes which is "I'm doing this for you, Padme. Obi Wan is currently on my shit list."

I suggest a line like this:
EXT. FLYING SPACE SHIP OVER GEONOSIS
Anakin: (V.O.) "We have no idea where he is. If I'm to protect you, we need a plan."
INT. FLYING SPACESHIP
Padme: "See those columns of steam straight ahead?-- they're exhaust vents of some type."
Anakin: "That'll do."

That makes this little interaction a lot more interesting. Maybe you can come up with even better lines-- ones more loaded with "anti-kenobi" venom-- without being over the top.

They land. Padme instructs Anakin to follow her lead. "Don't worry," he says, "I've given up trying to argue with you." Now the resignation relates to something-- he's going to help her do something he wouldn't do without her encouragement. Your reading of the line should emphasize THIS point rather than the current reading which is sort of "tired old married couple" banter.

Then the great changes you've got take over-- the factory [OMIT the reference of "Obi Wan's going to kill me" when his light saber's destroyed], the kiss, the CUT TO int. Arena where we see the columns and Obi Wan tied up.

Here's a big moment: Obi Wan and Anakin see each other for the first time. Obi Wan's surprised-- Anakin DOES NOT SMILE at him. He glares. Obi Wan rolls eyes.

The couple are chained up and Obi Wan says "I wondered if you got my message." Anakin replies as scripted-- but the line reading is sinister and flat. "We got it. Then we came to save you, dick-head." "Good job" cracks Obi Wan. Do NOT show the embarrassed Anakin reaction shot.

The animals come out. CUT Anakin's "I got a bad feeling about this" line-- CUT the "what about Padme" lines. Anakin and Padme have a plan. They spring into action and Obi Wan is the one playing "catch up"-- not Anakin.

Relocate the center of anxiety in this scene to Obi Wan by using the following ideas:

Recut the action of the beasts so that Anakin's beast ATTACKS FIRST.
Then Padme's.
Then Obi Wan's. Obi Wan is left tied up the longest, the last to be attacked and the last to escape.

As the beast stabs at Obi Wan, pump up the anxiety with bigger BOOM Sound FX as the beast misses and crushes the ground.

Keep the tension building on OBI WAN and PADME as their struggles play out. Keep the Anakin "training the beast" beat for last. In other words, let the beats of Obi Wan and Padme play out AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE before Anakin gets anywhere with his attempt to train his beast. BUT...

Once things are terrible and Anakin approaches his beast with his hand outstretched-- play the FORCE MUSIC CUE. The force has a strong effect on the weak minded. Let's hear it -- and now we know Anakin's plan.

Then, in much more rapid cuts than the present edit, Anakin rescues Padme and Obi Wan. Let Anakin's success unravel their mess more quickly and directly.

Up in the stands, Nute Gunray complains. Dukoo reassures him and finally:

THE DROIDS roll out... MUSIC CUE: when these droids come we need much scarier music. This should sound like the end of the frickin' world!

It's all over...

Until...

Mace shows up and the next battle begins. etc.

(As a side note in this battle: PLEASE cut the beat where Padme and Anakin jump onto the chariot and run around. Natalie Portman looks so silly holding that gun. These beats advance the story not one bit and their "banter" about "aggressive negotiations" is terrible. Please omit this entire bit. It bothers me as much as the C3P0 stuff. Losing it will speed up and intensify this battle. Please.)

The last great Anakin beats come as he and Padme ride with Obi Wan on the gun boat. Anakin naturally takes charge: Shoot at the fuel, he says. Good idea, compliments Obi Wan. That's a nice change-- maybe Obi Wan's not so bad...

Then Padme drops out and Anni goes nuts. Obi Wan gets in his face and challenges Anakin to now or never act like a Jedi! Anakin accepts the challenge and lets Padme go. Maybe a special music cue is called for here, I don't know. But this is the key moment at the climax of this character story.

I hope these ideas are clear. Thanks, Trooperman. I love working on this.

As for the "suicidally stupid" attack on Dukoo-- I think the important thing to cover is that it at least seems like a good idea. If Obi Wan says "Don't rush him" and Anakin rushes him-- it's like comedy. So the quick fix is to not have Obi Wan say "Don't rush him." If it could be worked into an even better beat, say, Anakin shows some patience, then Dukoo baits him and Anakin finally sees a chance and attacks what he thinks is a weakness-- well that would be awesome. If it can look like Anakin's doing something great and decisive only to be stopped dead, shocking him and the audience as well-- that's the best possible version of that beat.






Post
#123710
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/123710/action/topic#123710
Time
Trooperman--

Final cut? Great Googly Moogly!

Great points about the Han/Leia theme. I like the idea of taking the Ep III balcony music. My biggest fear around this point is that the work you do to fix the romance might get undermined by the score they chose for this. As long as you have options, I'm encouraged. I would argue that Han/Leia and Anakin/Padme are not that unalike. Han is a marked man and Leia is a Rebel leader-- their love is not forbidden, but just as doomed in ESB as these two are in SOTD. If there were only some alternate take, some variation on the theme that was vaguely recognizable instead of solidly linked to any major ESB events.

I can't help remembering what a lift it was in MagFan's "BOTF" to hear those ANH cues in the pod-race. Just a single quote of the Han/Leia theme placed carefully and discreetly could change the flavor of this whole movie-- making it more OT. But this is the last I'll speak of it because I can tell by your comments and ideas that you understand music better than I do.

Two last points to emphasize since the last cuts are being made: I love your outline but two points are unclear.

1. You say Anakin and Padme "disobey" Mace Windu when they run off to save Obi-Wan. If you cut Mace's direct order to stay on Tatooine, that gives them a loophole to sneak through so they (particularly Anakin) don't seem so immature.

2. In this cut, Anakin more or less blames Obi Wan for his mother's death. It isn't outright blame and there isn't solid logic behind this emotion -- but it is there and has to be processed.

As it stands, Anakin kills the sandpeople, yells about Obi Wan in the garage, buries his mom, then runs off to save Obi Wan.

When he finally gets face to face with Obi Wan, they pick up the "hilarious" banter they had at the beginning of the movie without a hint of residue from the death of Shmi. Obi Wan even seems to understand Padme better than Anakin when he notes that she "seems to be on top of things."

This stuff all seems incongruent. Where are Anakin's mixed emotions? They finally surface when Padme falls out of the gunship during the clone-war battle, but their banter during the "execution" really interrupts this thread.

Can you give Anakin a less jovial attitude to Obi Wan in the arena? Cut a couple of his lines? Christiansen's glares at McGregor seem to fit Anakin's mixed emotions better than his dialogue. Let his glares cover a couple of these "jokey" beats so that we remember Anakin's got a bone to pick with his master. Cut Obi-Wan's line about Padme and let it be part of Anakin and Padme's off-screen plans. After they kissed, we can presume they talked briefly about how they plan to escape.

On the Anakin lines you keep, the line readings you provide can contain more hints of something dark toward Obi Wan-- the reading of "We're here to rescue you, Master" can be almost threatening. That'll play off funnier when Obi Wan looks at his chains and says "Well you're doing a great job!"

The point of this is to let Obi Wan's talk with Anakin in the gun ship be a major story beat, when he asks "What would SHE do?" That's where Obi Wan and Anakin re-establish their friendship.

That's where Anakin finally is able to get his emotions into some kind of order. He knows Obi Wan never meant to let Shmi die, he just had his sights set on making Anakin a Jedi. At this moment, Anakin makes a Jedi-like decision to leave Padme and continue the mission. That's the key moment in this story-- the story of Anakin resenting his "Jedi" restrictions--breaking the rules--throwing aside his teachings--then finally picking up the mantle again. That backbone will turn this movie from mush into a story.

Then, if Anakin's "rushing into battle" against Dukoo can come off as smart rather than suicidally stupid, I think the Anakin story in Ep II will finally be complete.

If, on the other hand, you don't address his mixed emotions to Obi Wan when they first see each other again in the Arena, the entire throughline of Anakin's story will lose focus and limp to the finish line as it does in the AOTC cut.

The choice is yours, Jedi. Do or do not. There is no try.
Post
#123141
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/123141/action/topic#123141
Time
Those are some thorough music ideas. Too bad the romantic theme can't be replaced. The one scene I beg you to do something about, however, is the "fireplace scene." You've shortened it a lot, so it'll work better-- but the theme is so inadequate to carry off what's supposed to be a really emotional decision to hide a burning love. Just a touch of the Han/Leia theme here? Maybe? Just an echo in the background? Maybe?

Anyway, your music ideas are obviously as smart as all your others. Thanks for sharing.

In the dialogue of the Geonosis scene -- I suggested keeping the Padme line: "I'm not afraid to die" as a response to "Don't be frightened" because it leads directly to the "I love you" thought. In other words, she says "I'm not afraid to DIE, (implying) there is SOMETHING I'm afraid of..." What is it? "I'm afraid to lose you because I love you."

A small point, but there it is.

As for the "I killed them all" soliloquy-- if you like it then I bet it works. For my money, I don't care if he killed ALL the sandpeople or not-- I know losing his mother because Obi-Wan held him back plants a very dark seed into his conscience. If never mentions what he did out there, we still saw how mad he was and understand that wasn't Jedi behavior. I would ask myself, if I were you, does it seem natural watching Anakin soliloquize about his regret? If it does, then keep it. The major problem with that scene is how much exposition it has and how unnaturally it all comes out.
Post
#122726
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/122726/action/topic#122726
Time
Just a quick Bump to point out I edited my last post (wanting to be absolutely clear, y'know).

And to ask about your promised discussion about music-- when are you going to spill all your ideas? Giving Dukoo a theme from Planets-- awesome! What about using variations on the Han and Leia love theme for Anakin/Padme? Whatever you use, I have to vote that they get a simpler, more memorable love theme than the one they got. I couldn't hum the current one to save my life.

What musical goodies do we have to look forward to?
Post
#122716
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/122716/action/topic#122716
Time
Trooperman:

...Making for a MUCH better sequence, in my opinion.
------

BRILLIANT! That fight's going to freak people out --it's such an improvement.

-------------------
Trooperman:
...This way, Padme doesn’t ignore Yoda- she asks a related question.
-------------------

More Brilliance! The way you're taking hamburger and reconstructing it into a cow is frickin' impossible. I cannot wait for this thing (but be sure and take your time and get it right -- but hurry up! I mean take your time-- I mean ARRGH!

----------------------
Trooperman:
Another thing- Dooku now has his own musical motif (from Uranus, by Holst) It crops up at several key points in the film.

And yet another thing- I’m replacing the lightsaber sound effects with the classic ones from the original SW. I really disliked the new types of sounds that were used in the original cut.

And I promise this is the last one- I’m thinking about adding a very light, almost imperceptible grain to the entire film to make it seem like you’re actually watching a film and not a video game (which will also be helped by reduction in saturation).
---------------

This is why I love Trooperman. This is the kind of talk I've been waiting for from edit-fans -- concrete ideas to make these things fit with the OT.

"Fake" grain (film-look) can get distracting, so my observation with the stuff is that a little goes a L-o-n-g way. Remember that wear shows up at the ends of the reels, so at the beginning and end of each reel -- or every twenty minutes or so might be a good place to put a bit of "wear."

-------------------
Trooperman:
As always, I value your input. However, before too long, I’m going to lock down and pretty much go with what I have before doing the final mix and cut- so please don’t wait to post if you have something!
----------------

Well, since you bring it up... :-)

----------------------
Trooperman:
Also, here’s the plan for the kiss scene on Geonosis:

Anakin: Don’t be frightened, Padme. We’ll escape this nightmare before long.
Shot of Padme looking sad. Shot of Anakin looking sad.
Padme: Anakin… I love you.
Anakin is surprised.
Anakin: What are you talking about? CUT to shot of Padme.
Anakin: We had decided not to fall in love. That it would destroy us.
Padme: Our lives are about to be destroyed anyway. Silhouette of them kissing. (climax in music)
CUT: to the Geonosians cheering in arena. Cut to the last part of shot of them riding out.
---------------------

My big comment to that is where does any of that dialogue get us?

Compare to the following:

Leia: "I love you"
Han: "I know"

Padme wouldn't be frightened. Anakin knows that. They're looking for a chance to escape, they both know it. Anakin's face says "what are you talking about?" better than his words can. She knows they decided not to fall in love, but it happened anyway and he knows it. Who would ever say that at a moment like this? Their looks convey all the confusion better than this dialogue ever can.

With my DVD remote, I've "cut" this scene many times to see if it could work better. I keep the "Don't be frightened..." line but cut it off to imply it's just a nervous bit of speaking to break tension.

POST EDITED TO ADD: then Padme says "I'm not afraid to die."

But then he looks at her and the truth is clear. We move closer and she says "I love you." He reacts silently and she moves closer and closer until they kiss (climax with music).

Cutting to the cheering crowd is great and I didn't think of that. It's much more "realistic" and threatening.

But keeping all that dialogue will gum up a fine moment, in my opinion.

Other than this note, I love everything I've read from you, Troop.

It would be an honor to get a "direct" package -- as long as you don't feel compromised. The way you've handled this whole thing -- suggestions, nay sayers, the hard work of it -- I've got tons of respect for you. This is probably the coolest Star Wars fan thing I've been involved with. Thank you.

Post
#122126
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/122126/action/topic#122126
Time
Reading your beat-sheet outline is great Trooperman. Hurry up and send my discs because I can't wait to finally like Episode II.

I see you still want to do the "meadow" scene which I keep objecting to. Fine, you're the boss. I've finally come to terms with it -- but I offer this: I think the scene will work best if it can end on Padme saying "You're teasing me" without letting Anakin say anything in reply. As long as Padme doesn't believe Anakin's thoughts on politics are serious then it works as intended -- as a foreshadowing of Anakin's fall. But if she suspects he means it (which is how it plays as written) then he comes off as her worst possible love match.

Second objection (sorry), I see you still have the "You've grown up" Anakin/Padme scene after she gives Jar Jar her power. What does this scene get you, I wonder. It is so awkward and all it's content is covered better elsewhere in my opinion.

Otherwise, great work. Thanks for keeping it going.
Post
#119672
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/119672/action/topic#119672
Time
Trooperman--

We're all counting on your good taste. You have to change what bothers you, but I think it's a good call to leave this line alone.

I'm not THAT fond of it in the original edit, but in this one where we are going to be "hearing" his vision of Shmi -- you can let those sounds move down in the mix as Padme enters, thus setting up and reinforcing the line--

"Your presence is soothing"

As if his sense of her presence pushed away the painful vision -- a sorely needed opportunity to show romantic sparks between these two.