MTHaslett

User Group: Members
Join date: 13-Apr-2005
Last activity: 4-Sep-2024
Posts: 524

Post History

Post: #158207
Topic: The Skywalker Legacy (working title) (* unfinished project *)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/158207/action/topic#158207
Time: 26-Nov-2005 6:00 PM

GOOD LUCK!!!!

This is an awesome project!

This project makes possible something that I never considered before -- a TRUE sequel to Star Wars-- one which actually flows into the first release 1977 movie without violating anything.

For me there are TWO Star Wars-- the first release movie as a stand alone "adventures of Luke Skywalker" and then there's the SAGA, which is 6 movies about Anakin. Since Lucas didn't decide to make Vader into Anakin until the 3rd draft of ESB-- there's a lot of stuff that doesn't quite fit. Most of all, Obi Wan is really lying through his teeth when he tells Luke what happened to his father. That just doesn't fit with who Obi Wan was when I first saw the movie as a little boy.

But with the "migraine maker" and the rest of the PT footage, a movie (NOT this project, I realize) could be made that was a totally faithful sequel/prequel to the first movie.

I can't wait to see how your ideas pan out, DemonHunter.

Post: #158199
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/158199/action/topic#158199
Time: 26-Nov-2005 5:26 PM

So here comes another mammoth post -- but hey, it's Thanksgiving weekend and I don't watch football.

InfoDroid: "My fear is that if not handled right, it could reduce Sidious' character to just another Sith apprentice, instead of the Ulitimate Evil that he is. "

***

Understood -- this cannot be allowed, of course. The thing is the role of Palpatine will prevent this-- because his identity as Sidious' alter-ego becomes much more shocking when you are left feeling Palpatine's impact in Episode I without a hint of his other role. The stuff he says about the bureaucracy sets the fertile ground for Sidious' Episode II mischief. What seems like a simple battle in Episode I becomes the groundwork for doom in Episode II-- that's the way it was always supposed to work, but we all saw this coming a mile away because Sidious was standing front row center twisting his moustache the whole time.

Remember, without Sidious, the slow pan to Palpatine at Qui Gon's funeral becomes more meaningful and subtle. I think this is the route things would have gone if Episode I were made before ANH.

-----

InfoDroid: "And although you tried to avoid them, there ARE repercussions that extend into the editing of Episode II. For instance, the lack of Sidious in Episode I WOULD make Dooku's reveal to Obi-Wan in Episode II much more interesting when we find out the Trade Federation had been manipulated the entire time by this mysterious Dark Lord named "Darth Sidious". This could be the big 2nd-act reveal, like ESB."

***

What a great point-- I hadn't even seen it that way, but there you go. I think the "Sypho-Dias" change to "Sidious" also becomes a major no-brainer and the answer to the problems a lot of people have with that subplot.

-----

InfoDroid: "Sounds good! Let's hear 'em! "

***

In a nutshell, take advantage of Gunray's design and body language with subtitled dialogue that makes him eager to fight the Jedi, eager to invade Naboo, boldly stating his intentions and making command decisions at every opportunity. For example, when he's told that Jedi have come as ambassadors, let him comment something like "Hmm. It's been a while since I killed a Jedi." When the Jedi are rushing toward his command center in the opening sequence, let it be his underling who wants to close the blast shield while Gunray seems unconcerned. Let his attitude be more like, "They're still coming! This will be a battle! Let them in!" When he communicates with Amidala and she says "You won't be so happy when you hear what I have to say..." let him answer more to this effect: "I've decided there's no time left to wait. We are invading and I will soon taste your blood." Cut out all the pussy-footing and get to the attack. He sweeps in and conquers. He threatens and we believe him.

------

InfoDroid: "This is where I kind of say, "Um... I don't know." Mainly because you're elevating Gunray's status as a worthy villain, with scenes available in Episodes II and III, only to kill him off in Episode I? He needs to escape at the end, like Darth Vader in ANH. I mean, sure it would look good on Anakin's resume', but how do you deal with the whole arena battle in Episode II? It's Nute's brother Carl Gunray, thirsty for revenge against the kid who killed his brother (because it wouldn't have been Padme who took Nute down, it would now be Anakin). ."

***
I hadn't looked at it that way-- but I think those later Episode scenes will work as you suggest. To cover his death on the droid ship, you came up with two options I'd thought of too. I lean toward having, as you put it, "Carl Gunray" in the sequels because it makes him more interesting -- in fact his cowardly manner could be left in tact in the sequels-- to differentiate Carl from Nute.

----

Good stuff, MTH. Good, good stuff. BUT, you haven't yet addressed what I think are the biggest detriments to the film, which are: Jar-Jar, The Padme=Handmaiden=Queen fiasco, Boss Nass, and the Gungan/Droid Battle. I'd definitely love to hear your thoughts on improving these elements as well.

***

THANKS! Glad it doesn't sound like a brain-fart to you, at least.
As to Jar-Jar, Padme/Handmaiden, Boss Nass, and the Gungan battle-- I have a lot of problems with that stuff as well. I believe MagFan helped those issues tremendously, however, and I would simply take the ball further down the field starting from where he left off. This amounts to a long list of additional cuts, screen-flips, and out-right omissions. The raised tension of having Gunray in charge and kicking ass means one big thing: send Darth Maul after Padme a lot sooner. Have him reach Tatooine before the sand storm. Keep the tension up and the plot clear. That will help a lot.

One of my biggest problems is with Captain Tanaka. I think that guy's a douche and his costume is the silliest of the entire Saga-- worse than Jar Jar's. Editing the whole escape to Tatooine so that it emphasizes the tension better would mean cutting tons of material out of there-- like the "His number is artoo-deetoo"/"I do not agree with the Jedi on this" scene. His other scenes can be trimmed within an inch of their life too-- especially with Maul on Tatooine raising the tension and making Qui-Gon's need to win the pod-race more urgent.

Boss Nass needs to be reduced more too-- but since I'm changing the shape of the climax, we don't need to hear all of Amidala's plan before it happens-- and that's one more Nass scene we can omit. And with the new emphasis on Anakin's role in the climax, I think we can cut ALL of Jar Jar's antics on the battle-field and it will help things. The reason MagFan didn't cut more, I am convinced, is that without Jar-Jar's "heroism", the climax is truly awful with Padme bumbling along to capture Gunray and Anakin bumbling along to destroy the droid ship. These two plans can be severely changed: have Padme get caught trying to catch Gunray-- truly failing because Gunray's on the droid ship. Have Anakin feel Qui Gon's death and destroy the droid ship and Gunray and win the battle single-handed. Suddenly all the emphasis is where it should be: on Anakin. And all the Jar Jar stuff is totally unnecessary. With the Anakin story actually providing dramatic force-- that Jar Jar stuff can finally go.

The Handmaiden stuff is still necessary, but can be dramatically reduced with a couple clever edits-- one, her "space is cold" scene with Anakin can be played without dialogue and actually have dramatic power. Two: the scene where Anakin goes to say goodbye to her and meets Amidala changing can be cut completely. The whole Coruscant sequence needs to be reduced by at least 1/3-- put all the Palpatine/Senate stuff into one continuous sequence (cut the actual Senate meeting down by half-- it's easy) and all the Jedi/Anakin stuff into a second sequence-- then end it with Amidala's decision to leave and suddenly the scenes can each be dramatically reduced. (With some clever re-ordering) they flow better this way and we get off that stinking city-planet and back to the battle a lot faster. I think the "Anakin shows Padme his droid C3P0" scene can be moved to make Padme come off better there too. There are a lot of opportunities left.

Streamlining everything around Qui-Gon and Anakin is the answer to saving this movie, imho. That occurs by beefing up the Trade Federation and letting Anakin defeat them with Qui-Gon's help. I think ALL the tone poems could actually play a role in making this work -- using Maul's to beef his character up before his big battle, using Shmi's to beef up the underwhelming good-bye scene; the new, quieter and more powerful Anakin will allow this stuff to work.

As long as someone else does the work for me-- }:-(

Post: #158156
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/158156/action/topic#158156
Time: 26-Nov-2005 3:12 PM

Trooperman, I know you're busy catching up on stuff (Mace's light saber, etc.) so I thought I'd stop throwing new "Shroud" stuff at you and put together some thoughts on Episode I. Since this doesn't really have to be addressed now, it's not adding to the work needing to be done. I think this thread is where I'd like to test these ideas -- they relate to what's been discussed, so they're not totally off-topic. I'd like to hear what people think.
----

Trooperman: [re: cutting Sidious from Ep. I] "Maybe we could still have Sidious in Episode I, but to a much lesser extent? Relegating him to one or two scenes? I’ll have to think about this one, but the good news is that I think I’m pretty much going to do the same thing with the scene in Ep. II either way, so that I don’t have to make a decision right away."

***

I understand the reluctance people have to taking Sidious out of Episode I-- he was the one character from the OT that showed up for TPM acting in character, doing cool stuff, and maybe even coming off even better than he did before. That was a relief from the off-model droids, goofy Skywalker, Jar Jar, poop jokes, etc. etc.

But I am dead serious when I say I believe cutting every frame of Sidious is the only way to possibly make Episode I as great as it should have been.

Consider it only in this light, (before I go any furhter): Episode I should play like the first movie of the Star Wars Saga.

The only way Sidious' appearance makes sense is in the context it was released -- as Sequel #4. If TPM comes after ROTJ, then yeah, let's see Sidious. But if TPM is the first movie of an OT style 6 movie SAGA-- what sense does it make to undercut all the subtlety and expose Sidious right off the bat?

I say cut him and strengthen what's left. In the absence of Sidious, the Trade Federation has to be built into a worthy badguy. MagFan already started down that road with the addition of slave-trading. I have more ideas to take this much, much further until Gunray is a blood-thirsty ass-kicker -- not a coward.

One idea involves manipulating footage to get him off Naboo during the climax and back onto the droid control ship. This loses the Padme-capturing-Gunray thread, streamlining the end and dropping a lot of its lamest sequences. But most of all, it shapes the story climax around Anakin-- it loads meaning into the Anakin story.

Consider if Anakin's connection to Qui Gon didn't drop when he flew off into battle-- what if Qui-Gon were mentally communicating with Anakin? What if Anakin felt Qui-Gon's death? What if he cut loose the torpedoes in anger? And what if it blew up the ship and stopped the droids and got Gunray at the same time? -- Much more satisfying.

One objection may be that we lose Gunray from Episode II-- but that can be covered a number of ways. In short, the Trade Federation can go on without him.

I've been going over the footage to construct this ending, and it's quite do-able. Making this a movie about defeating the Trade Federation straightens out so many complications that bog the story down.

If you were to only cut Sidious' presence down, what scenes would you keep? The balcony scene with Maul is the only one that can't be covered another way. But it stands out like a sore thumb, slowing down the narrative and introducing a plot of "revenge" that I still don't quite understand. Cut all Sidious, I say. Let his presence be felt by the Jedi, let his mystery grow until his appearance in Episode II when we realize just how complicated things are going to get. Keep Episode I simple-- like ANH. It should do its best to stand completely on its own.

An aspect of this strategy involves shaping Anakin.

He needs to have a special ability to communicate through the Force, to living people, without speaking. If he's going to have a link with Qui-Gon, it'll be a little different than Vader reading Luke's emotions in the OT. But being the "chosen one" makes this leap do-able; and it leads to many advantages.

-- like helping with Anakin's performance.

One big fix: when Padme first meets Anakin, the boy's acting is bad enough to make even MagFan's edit of the scene hard to take. But there's a way to make the scene feel more special. Remember: this is our first look at Anakin. What if this introduction can make him seem powerful, almost dangerous, yet still child-like and all here in his first scene? Great. But how?

Make him communicate to Padme without speaking. Cherry pick the good Anakin shots and drop all the bad ones. Let this be a scene filled with mystery as the boy reveals great power.

Padme's reactions are already in line with this. The astonishment in her expression can be combined with the addition of proper music-- the Force theme or something equally haunting. Suddenly we don't know what to expect from this kid. We see that he and Padme have a special link -- something that's sorely missing in the whole PT right now. Suddenly, we're past that awkward scene in a way that builds momentum instead of cutting it by half. Yippee! There are many places to take advantage of this -- building up Anakin's power and cutting down on his awkward performance.

That represents an edit well on its way to making Episode I a straight-forward and complete story. It's the story of some Jedi who help defeat an invasion on Naboo with the invaluable help of a powerful boy they discover on Tatooine. No Sidious stuff to worry about, no mystery surrounding Darth Maul; minimize all the meetings and Senate hearings; just stay on target in the battle to defeat the crazed and dangerous Trade Federation.

Sorry this is so frickin' long. I hope it makes sense.

EDITED TO ADD:

Just a couple new thoughts--

First, when Anakin destroys the droid ship and Qui Gon dies in Obi-Wan's arms-- the movie quickly rushes into beureaucratic stuff on Naboo and never gets back to the most important beat of all; namely: What does Anakin think about having lost Qui Gon? The answer is The Qui Gon Tone Poem: played over footage of Anakin flying the Naboo fighter after destroying the droid ship leading into a montage of quieter images-- Qui Gon's words about the hardships of the path before Anakin provide the important thematic that the whole movie is lacking. I always got a bigger charge out of the marketing of the PT than I did out of the movies. Here's the perfect place to combine them (I know Trooperman also wants to use the tone poems in Episode II -- I don't think repeating them is really a bad idea if we must. I know the Qui Gon tone poem fits most perfectly here, at the end of Episode I where the emotion over QG's death is highest.)

Second-- Undercutting my own point -- I believe there might be a perfect place to put a bit of Sidious in this movie: on the droid ship with Gunray contacting Sidious briefly before being destroyed. It should come in a brief enough window to seem inconsequential at first-- just the kind of loose end that you don't realize is important until we see this Sidious guy turn up again in Episode II. But I'm still not sure this is even a good idea because ANH works much better without these kinds of loose ends and that's supposed to be Episode IV. Episode I should have at least as solid an ending as Episode IV, imho.

Post: #158149
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/158149/action/topic#158149
Time: 26-Nov-2005 2:29 PM

First-- Happy Thanksgiving to everyone who contributes to this thread! I echo the other sentiments-- this is the most productive thing I'm part of on the internet. This feels nothing short of being involved in the first quality prequel yet. I like other edits-- but this feels like it could be the prequel I always imagined.

This feels so much better than just bitchin' about what Lucas got wrong. This is the Ranch!

Trooperman: " Great suggestions on close-ups, MTHaslett. I have many ideas of my own as well, but if you can think of any other spots where that would add to the effect, please say so. Along with your other ideas regarding the droids, etc. "

***

A quick one: in the opening sequence where the ships are flying into Coruscant-- go back to TPM for a close up of Artoo in the back of a Naboo Fighter. This would cue us into his presence and p.o.v. before we even get to the landing deck. I see you plan an interior shot on the Queen's ship here too and I think that's brilliant-- what if it can establish (falsely) that Padme's actually on board -- a shot of Padme's double or something?

Post: #157770
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/157770/action/topic#157770
Time: 24-Nov-2005 3:54 PM

TM: "I’ve concluded that this could possibly have a lot to do with the actual framing of the shots in the prequels. Very rarely do we get many good close-ups at all; it’s usually from the chest up, with some space above the head as well. In a very real sense, everything feels far away because the actual camera never gets close."

***

I have the same opinion. I have two major close-ups to request that will be easy and have nice impact. I don't know how you may be changing the scenes already-- so see if they fit.

One: As Anakin and Padme walk with her luggage in Naboo -- a lot of this will have to go to make her not a senator, but one line that's good for these lovers is when Anakin says "I think the Republic needs you." It would be a perfect spot to get a close up of her reaction to this line -- meaning "Wow, this guy's compliments are effective."

Two: As Anakin first shakes hands with Clieg Lars, he hears "She's my wife" and this should be said with a close up of Anakin's pained reaction -- he's got a step father? Mom got married? That's exactly the kind of missing close up that keeps us OUT of Anakin's head.

I know there are more, but I had these two off the top of my head.

Post: #157747
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/157747/action/topic#157747
Time: 24-Nov-2005 2:18 PM

Trooperman --

Happy Thanksgiving!

Thanks for checking in. Thanks for arbitrating all the decisions.

Thanks for "Shroud of the Darkside"

MAY 25, 2006 -- A Saga Was Finally Set Back On Course...

Post: #157441
Topic: Idea: MY phantom edit
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/157441/action/topic#157441
Time: 23-Nov-2005 11:33 AM

Originally posted by: THX

Originally posted by: MTHaslett
...So Qui Gon dies of a sudden fever?
No, Qui Gon is also cut.

I see.

The suggestion of making Maul into General Grievous is not about saving lame characters-- it's about adding another level to two of the most memorable characters in the entire PT. Now if this were about Making Boss Nass into Jabba the Hutt, you'd have a point.

I've never heard anyone say Jabba the Hutt was a bad villain. If that's what you're saying, I say I disagree.

Right. You want to cut Qui Gon, Darth Maul and Sidious, but leave in Jabba.

I don't like your ideas.

Post: #157338
Topic: Idea: MY phantom edit
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/157338/action/topic#157338
Time: 22-Nov-2005 10:13 PM

Commander Courage:
"Also if your plan is to cut the Sidious scenes in TPM, how would Grievous' name be established? "

***

Thinking this through, this is only a problem if you don't subtitle the Nemoidians. Rebel Scum is taking the hardest path. Maybe he won't be able to make Maul=Grievous.

But in an edit where the Nemoidians are subtitled, they can name their henchman "Maul" or "Grievous" or whatever.

They can also order the final battle and cover any other beat that's currently handled by Sidious-- and it will make the movie better every time.

Making the first prequel about defeating a weak villain really hurt "Phantom Menace." ANH is about blowing up the death star. TPM is about disarming a bunch of weak trade-obsessed aliens with Asian accents. I want to see a version where Nute Gunray is transformed from a weakling to a monster-- I want to hear him yearn to bite Amidala's head off and drink her blood. Take away Sidious and these guys already look like real monsters. They just need bad-ass dialogue to pull it off.

I know Rebel Scum likes the weak Nemoidians. I'm just speaking theoretically about the benefits/opportunities of cutting out Sidious.

Post: #157318
Topic: Idea: MY phantom edit
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/157318/action/topic#157318
Time: 22-Nov-2005 8:00 PM

...So Qui Gon dies of a sudden fever?

I've never heard anyone say Darth Maul was a bad villain. If that's what you're saying, I say I disagree.

Since this is a thread about cutting out all the Sidious stuff, try doing that AND cutting Maul-- suddenly you have a movie about Anakin and Jar Jar-- Whee, that sounds like fun.

The suggestion of making Maul into General Grievous is not about saving lame characters-- it's about adding another level to two of the most memorable characters in the entire PT.

Now if this were about Making Boss Nass into Jabba the Hutt, you'd have a point.

Post: #157221
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/157221/action/topic#157221
Time: 22-Nov-2005 12:28 PM

Originally posted by: Arklaine

I’m afraid I still I like the fact that he gets whumped straight away. Despite Anakin’s power and potential, the scene shows the essential need for a lack of attachment in a Jedi’s life and, ultimately, the failings that the Darkside will bring. He is so influenced by his emotions (so quick to anger) that this acts as a distraction from his training and Dooku uses this fact and, in effect, just whips the football away and sends the unfocused Jedi flying. Thereby giving more credence to Obi and his philosophy (and also to the fact that he, ultimately, failed in training Anakin).

Good points. But Anakin's raw power is totally ignored. He couldn't do worse if this were the first time he'd ever held a lightsaber. That's my problem.

I love everything you say and agree with the meaning of Dukoo's victory-- but that meaning wouldn't change if Anakin were able to bull through for at least a moment-- in fact the meaning would be enhanced. If an emotional attack from an untrained average Jedi comes-- whack! That's no threat to Dukoo. But what if it were an emotional attack from an untrained "chosen one?" An apprentice who will be the most powerful of all Jedi? Well if it's just the same answer-- whack! Well, that's just dull. But if there's a beat of "oh my god, Anakin's raw power may allow this to be a fight..." before Dukoo whips the football away, then the point is made even clearer: it doesn't matter how powerful you are-- if you do not detach, you will lose.

Remember that in this edit, Anakin does almost nothing out of emotion-- just two things: goes to save his mom and kills the sandpeople. Everything else is marked by his restraint now.

So how he approaches this fight is kind of important-- it's not just "more of the same" as in the original cut. This moment is a dramatic beat-- it tells us what kind of man he's becoming and it comes on the heels of another important beat when he decides to leave Padme behind and "do the right thing."

By making that choice of restraint a few minutes earlier and then showing up here and going berzerk-- Anakin's character is suddenly waffling and adrift. There needs to be a straight line that explains why he rushes in here when he was able to rein himself in and leave Padme only a short time earlier.

It might help if Dukoo taunts Anakin into coming. If Dukoo said "I sense that she suffered before she died. I hope that pains you, young Jedi." Then I can see Anakin going off. But to do it in response to Obi Wan's direct order is just whacky.

Post: #157127
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/157127/action/topic#157127
Time: 21-Nov-2005 11:14 PM

Making Dukoo responsible for Anakin's mother's death?

Trying it on for size does put light onto the whole Anakin/Dukoo problem. On the one hand, Anakin would really have a great reason to attack him, wouldn't he?

But then, imagining how it plays out, I realize one of my problems with having Anakin rush Dukoo is how pathetic Anakin's attack turns out to be. He runs in, looking goofy, disobeying a direct order, against an obviously powerful opponent-- and gets swatted aside like a fly.

That may be what GL wanted, but it sure is unsatisfying.

Regardless of what motivates Anakin's attack-- and without getting into how to do this-- would anyone else feel better if Anakin had managed to achieve the slightest thing before being defeated? I mean, if he had only made Dukoo draw his light-saber and hold Anakin off before slapping him aside. If Anakin got that far, I could respect him a little more-- sense his raw, if untrained power.

I don't claim this is the biggest problem. I think there's a snarl of problems surrounding Anakin's choice. This is one of them, I think.

Post: #157108
Topic: Idea: MY phantom edit
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/157108/action/topic#157108
Time: 21-Nov-2005 10:05 PM

Originally posted by: Rebel Scumb

You mean when Vader and the Emperor were talking about bringing in young Skywalker, they both knew that he would have to kill one of them? That does not track.

Well according to Lucas thats the idea. Each being evil knows the other cannot be trusted, but they also need each other in the mean time. Each is banking on the fact that they will come out on top, and trying use the other's desire to do the same to their advantage.

or at the very least you could say that Vader does not know, but I don't think thats nessesary. Vader assumes he can get luke to kill the emperor, the emperor assumes he can get Luke to kill vader

That still sounds more like a principle than a rule. If it were a rule which all Jedi know, then Vader and the Emperor know that "turning young Skywalker" is all bad news for someone in their relationship. If it were a rule and Vader wanted to turn Skywalker, he wouldn't announce it to the Emperor.

The way GL puts it sounds more like a general, pridictable way the Sith behave, but not a rule. A rule leaves no room for Vader to be fooled, no room for the Emperor and Vader to conspire to turn Skywalker while secretly plotting to use Skywalker against each other. But if it's more like a tendency -- an aspect of evil which comes from being power-mad, well that's just not a "Rule of 2" . That name, "Rule of 2" has to be shorthand for behavior that isn't really in stone. Otherwise, it just doesn't track.

With that being the case-- Palpatine can certainly bend this "rule" as the most powerful Sith ever. He can plan to revive a mechanical Darth Maul in the person of Grievous as an "extra" apprentice. He's planning on losing Dukoo anyway-- and Grievous as well. Yet he could use both their help in the meantime. He is, after all, orchestrating the destruction of all Jedi.

Post: #156988
Topic: Idea: MY phantom edit
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/156988/action/topic#156988
Time: 21-Nov-2005 3:32 PM

As for General Grievous/Darth Maul using the force or having a red light saber-- Commander Courage says to give Grievous red sabers-- but I don't think anyone mentioned him using the force. That's a good idea and probably easy to accomplish by using editing to make him push Obi Wan or "grab" a light saber or "throw" a piece of debris.

Good idea.

Post: #156985
Topic: Idea: MY phantom edit
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/156985/action/topic#156985
Time: 21-Nov-2005 3:27 PM

You mean when Vader and the Emperor were talking about bringing in young Skywalker, they both knew that he would have to kill one of them? That does not track. They are too mutually enthusiastic about it for the "rule of 2" to be in effect.

"Good idea, bring in Skywalker and he gets to kill you!"
"Oh no, no, no-- bring him in, but he gets to kill YOU."
"Me?"
"Yes."
"Why me?"
"Because it was my idea."
"I don't care who's idea it was-- it only seems fair that he kills you because I've been a Sith longer than you."
"Then it's my turn-- you die. I live and Skywalker takes my place."
"I don't like it."
"Why not?"
"I just don't. Look-- let's decide who he kills later. Maybe nothing will come of this and all this bickering will be pointless, okay?"
"Okay-- but I'm saying he kills you."
"Ah-ah-ah. Stop that."
"I'm just saying."
"Don't make me use lightning on you. And don't forget you killed Padme."
"NOOOOOOOO! I'd almost managed to put that out of my mind, you jerk!"
"Sorry."

Post: #156910
Topic: Idea: MY phantom edit
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/156910/action/topic#156910
Time: 21-Nov-2005 11:28 AM

Re: Commander Courage's Maul/GG idea

For the purpose of this cut, Episode I, just inserting an introduction of Maul as Grievous and maintaining the name change will do for a set up.

The "Rule" of 2 is obviously not a rule as Vader and the Emperor plot to get Luke in the OT-- as you point out, so any reference to a "rule of 2" is about as meaningful as a reference to midiclorians. It's outdated by the time of the OT and kind of confusing-- so why not cut it?

The chronology of GG/Maul, however, doesn't really have to violate this. Maul/GG is "killed" by Obi Wan in Episode I. He doesn't have a role in Episode II, but that's fine because the story would be that Episode II is when Palpatine is developing the techniques that save Maul/GG and turn him into the Grievous robot of Episode III. This happens, one presumes, in the same laboratory where Vader is rebuilt. It happens off screen since it has no bearing on the events of Episode II.

The reveal of Grievous' identity to Obi Wan during their Episode III duel is a wonderful opportunity-- but this is the one sticky point about Commander Courage's plan: if Grievous robot and Darth Grievous of Episode I have the same name-- doesn't everyone know it? Maybe the Jedi won't, but the audience will and that's just as important. To work best, the moment Obi Wan learns Grievous is the same Sith who killed Qui Gon should be the moment the audience realizes the same thing.

How can this reveal be preserved for the audience?

Post: #156457
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/156457/action/topic#156457
Time: 19-Nov-2005 1:43 PM

Commander:
I love the idea of GG = DM.

I think your solution covers the bases well -- essentially, change Maul's name to Grievous in Episode I and exploit all the missed opportunities. I never realized how MANY missed opportunities there are. It is absolutely a natural.

The wheezing schtick didn't bother me that much from GG -- but it was off for most people. The intention was to mirror Vader's breathing, I think. With this DM=GG formula, the wheezing could be made more integral to the story/character. The idea that Maul/GG is a prototype for Vader-- without all the bugs worked out-- is implied and could be interesting. Maybe something to keep in mind if the faltering/wheezing is too hard to eliminate completely.

Anyway, it's a done deal for my alleged future edit. Right along with NO SIDIOUS. Good things!

Post: #156279
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/156279/action/topic#156279
Time: 18-Nov-2005 3:55 PM

Commander Courage: As far as cutting Sidious from TPM, I think it's a bold move on Rebel Scumb's part to do something different, but I'd be against Trooperman doing so in his Episode 1. He's rather essential to the plot, especially if you want to bring out the story of Palpatine's rise to power (one of the best of the PT). Don't forget how much of an impact dubbing and subtitles can do in regards to the Trade Federation, which TM will be doing and RS will not. That said I do look forwaed to how RS handles it in his edit.

***

I knew there would be resistence! Resistence is futile! These are not the droids you're looking for...

I'm not saying take him out of the PT-- just don't see him in Episode I. What about his presence is essential to the plot? Simply that he exists and is pulling the strings behind the blockade-- he doesn't have to be seen doing it to get that across. In my new and Rebel-Scum enlightened point of view, SEEING Sidious makes all his actions feel clumsy.

The greatest effect of making Sidious micro-manage the Federation blockade is to belittle him since his plans are completely defeated by a little girl and a Jamaican alien.

But take him out and leave his mysterious presence a hint-- the power behind the thrown so to speak-- and the Trade Federation become worthy opponents who are outdone by our heroes. But our heroes don't realize what they're really up against-- and niether does the audience, theoretically, although it's all there if you're paying attention.

I just think this is a much more sophisticated approach to telling the same story -- a more OT approach.

I liked seeing Sidious for the first screening, but I have to admit something: I didn't know Palpatine and Sidious were the same guy. That was a surprise spoiled for me by someone in the audience after the movie ended. Seeing the movie again, knowing that Palpatine and Sidious were the same guy-- some things didn't add up. Like why was he so clueless about what Amidala was doing when he is actually her friend and confidant?

Anyway-- I'm convinced this is the way to go-- for the moment. When I get my editing suite (and my mansion and my yacht) I'm going to edit it this way, darn it. >;-P

Post: #156259
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/156259/action/topic#156259
Time: 18-Nov-2005 1:35 PM

Trooperman:

I have more ideas coming-- ways to juice up the droids, tone up the romance, and beef up a few sequences with sound effects-- but there's one idea that I just stole from another thread that you have to hear.

This is from Rebel Scum's new ideas on recutting Ep. I -- If you like it, it will effect how you want to cut Sidious into Episode II.

Episode I suffers from a real lack of suspense -- we know everything the bad guys are doing before they do it and we know more about everything than Qui Gon and Obi Wan. Because Darth Sidious telegraphs all his plans, there's never an opportunity for us to be surprised by the bad guys-- but what if...

What if you cut out every single reference to Sidious?

Consider -- this simplifies the apparent story and adds a layer of subtext. The threat posed by the Trade Federation goes up a notch because suddenly they aren't so frickin incompetent and servile-- they're the top of the food chain as far as we know. Then Nute Gunray becomes a memorable and cool character. His henchmen is Darth Maul -- quite like Tarkin and Vader in ANH. And just like ANH, we aren't told that this "Darth" character is the servent of Sidious. It's implied and played by the rules-- but never stated.

This empowers both Gunray and Maul -- and saves the big Sidious reveal for Episode II!

Then the final pan to Palpatine gets more juice. And the reveal at the end of Episode II gets real power. Finally, a fan might say, the EMPEROR comes on the scene.

You lose some good moments (well, the only one I really like is when Sidious says "Wipe them out, OHLL of them!") -- but you get a hell of a lot of juice and drama in the exchange.

And it gives Episode II one more way to be cool -- and Episode II could use it.

Anyway-- I hope you'll give it a thought. I personally think that would improve Episode I a great deal-- but if you wanted to do it, then you'd want to make Sidious' first appearance in Episode II somehow very special.

Post: #156254
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/156254/action/topic#156254
Time: 18-Nov-2005 1:22 PM

Sluggo-- And I like the line ANAKIN (V.O.): "I'm not afraid to die... but I can never lose you again.", but does the line make sense for a wedding? Does being married equate to dying?

***

Well, lemme tell you-- when you get 8 years of marriage under your belt like I got; you won't be askin' that no more! ;-)

You're not catching it-- and who can blame you out of context -- but the line is supposed to harken back to the scene where Padme confesses her love to Anakin -- "I'm not afraid to die..." she says and then kisses him.

Here, he echoes it-- in effect saying "I take you to be my soul mate by saying the same things you say" -- but then he puts an Episode III twist on it.

It's just an idea. If we can get the right line at this point, it really brings the movie home in a way that it won't with just the wedding. I mean, the wedding's pretty and all -- but it's so generic that it could have been cut completely if we just cut to Artoo and Threepio talking in a corridor somewhere -- "What's that Artoo? A wedding? Between Padme and Master Anni? What's wrong with you, you know Jedi are forbidden to marry!" There is much left to say at the end of this movie and it's all kind of left in a mess and swept under the carpet by this pretty, but unspectacular wedding. I think one good line from Anakin would crystalize the ending-- make it feel like we've come to the end of this episode.

Post: #156236
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/156236/action/topic#156236
Time: 18-Nov-2005 11:39 AM

Trooperman--

I was just signing on this morning to reveal my next solution -- and you're already there. The best motive for Anakin is definitely revenge for Padme.

I agree with the way you put it when you say the dialogue can work in this duel. I think the original edit has a combined effect of having too much stand-in work, too little sense of location, AND too many pauses in the fight so that the lines (which are generally good) seem ripe to be removed-- but if the fight is more brutal and the lines can stay? Perfect.

The thing that got me to come around was looking at the whole movie again. We have solutions to reduce or eliminate all Anakin's impetuousness. Now, if I'm accurate in remembering your changes, Anakin is admirable for staying on his Jedi duties as long as he does before going to his mom -- and then again for rescuing Obi Wan. Along the way he wins Padme's heart and, damn it, he isn't going to lose her too! Bam! He runs in at Dukoo-- now only the second reveal of the vengeful emotion that will later destroy him. Now it's significant and not repetitive; the key is to tie it to Padme and not "all the Jedi you killed today."

I realize we can't have a line like "You're going to pay for killing the woman I love." We can come up with a similar line that works, though. It has to clearly refer to Padme from the audience point of view without revealing anything to Obi Wan.

ANAKIN: "You're going to pay for killing her, Dukoo. This I promise."

---

One more change that is small, but related is that when Padme falls out of the ship they describe her fall with two shots in the sand: FIRST, she tumbles down the sand dune toward camera and rolls out of frame, screen left. SECOND, she rolls to a stop, on her back facing camera in close-up. I suggest cutting the second shot. It feels fake because the framing is too perfect and she doesn't look like she just fell out of an airplane. If you let her roll out of frame and don't tell us where she stops before cutting back to Anakin's reaction, I think it will seem more convincing that she may be hurt/dead.

---

Lastly, the losing Padme beat requires an "I thought I lost you" beat. But I don't want the one in the hanger when she runs up and hugs him -- and I'm glad you don't either.

I think this gives us an idea what the one line over the beginning of the wedding should be -- something to cover this beat and set up the next movie a little. Something like this:

ANAKIN (V.O.): I'm not afraid to die... but I can never lose you again.

Post: #156138
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/156138/action/topic#156138
Time: 17-Nov-2005 9:14 PM

Commander Courage: One thing I wouldn't want for sure though is the two fighting him together. Save that for RotS, and save the line that goes along with it as well.

***

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Well -- the rushing in has to be made pallatable and character building -- it has to be NECESSARY TO THE STORY, right?

This is a sticky one.

Post: #156133
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/156133/action/topic#156133
Time: 17-Nov-2005 8:52 PM

Good thoughts, Trooperman --

One idea that occured to me, and one which you might be able to make work since you can "darken" shots, is to use the way these fights are all shot in close-up to give the illusion that Obi Wan and Anakin are fighting Dukoo together.

We'd never get a good master of it after they circle him together -- but you would build to a beat where Dukoo force-shoves Anakin into the wall, then to a beat where he cuts Obi-Wan -- goes in for the kill -- and gets stopped by Anakin. Then the remaining Anakin shots allow you to finish the duel in short-order.

You'd probably have to darken the whole duel so the first shots match the final shots because most of the Anakin/Dukoo duel is in half-light.

But having them both fight Dukoo together is the most natural thing for these Jedi to do character-wise -- at least in this edit. Trying to justify a rushing-in Anakin is another way to go, but somehow a second choice to me. I think I'm afraid of how dumb it makes him look. That could be improved if Obi Wan does not ask him to not rush in-- if somehow it were Obi-Wan's idea for Anakin to rush in... I don't know.

Both fighting at once is best, isn't it? If the footage were little better, it would be a no-brainer. But with creative use of what's there, I think the impression could be achieved -- as long as the underlying idea is that Dukoo is WAY TOO GOOD for them and WAY TO RELENTLESS (no chatting, no pausing). I think there has to be a unique flavor to each duel -- and this one feels the most generic of any in the PT. "Relentlessness" is my suggestion for making it unique.

Post: #156043
Topic: Idea: MY phantom edit
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/156043/action/topic#156043
Time: 17-Nov-2005 4:06 PM

Commander Courage: "Rest assured if no one else gets around to making those alterations, Trooperman is definitely going to address it when it comes time for his edit 2 years from now."

***

AHHH! Who can wait?

Well-- Rebel Scumb has really bitten off a challenge by limiting the footage and dialogue to what's available. Perhaps there's a way to cover continuity-- but the slovenly, cowardly Trade Federation will always sound weak, I'm afraid.

Still-- Onward! I love this idea!

Post: #156028
Topic: Idea: MY phantom edit
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/156028/action/topic#156028
Time: 17-Nov-2005 3:27 PM

I'm in the same boat as the other TPM fans-- it's better than AOTC for me, mostly because of Liam Neeson, the pod race, and the incredible duel in the end.

I never once considered the idea proposed here -- but I have to say I LOVE IT!!

Yes, it probably will cause continuity problems-- but the mystery of what the Trade Federation is doing and where Darth Maul comes from will vastly improve the FEELING of that story. Being stuck in the Jedi's shoes, not knowing what the hell is going on is EXACTLY how the story should have been told. I can't believe I never saw this before.

What will need to happen is that the Trade Federation will have to appear stronger, more self-reliant, smart and vast. Darth Maul will be their assistant, provided by a secret sponsor (Sidious) whom is only referred to in passing. Then, Qui Gon's funeral will be full of suspense -- "What the hell was that? A Sith? What the F*** is going on!?" Then we pan over to Palpatine... Excellent.

The other issue to address possibly is making Anakin's final space-ship battle connect with the death of Qui Gon-- I wish someone could use editing to make it seem Anakin feels Qui Gon's death and that he CUTS LOOSE with the torpedoes in an act of wrath and fury over this feeling in the Force.

Do these two things and make the aliens talk alien (which will sure help cover the loss of Sidious) and you may have the best Episode I yet!!

Great idea!!

Post: #155981
Topic: Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link: https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/155981/action/topic#155981
Time: 17-Nov-2005 12:14 PM

Arklaine

quote: "I think it would be a mistake to suddenly have him gain either a measure of restraint, or worse still, uncertainty (in not knowing how or when to join the battle), after a) what he had just gone through and b) that he was fighting one of the most dangerous foes of his life. Although GL has messed up many scenes and aspects within the film, Anacin being disobedient and running at Dooku at this point in time fits perfectly"

***

What you may not have seen is this edit tones Anakin down and limits all his impulsiveness to choices that come up around saving his mom. He doesn't over-reach anymore about how to protect Padme, solve the mystery of her assassin, or even to hit on the woman he loves. He's a model of restraint until he just can't take it and has to try to save his mom.

He also no longer "saved" Obi Wan or did anything impressive as a Jedi except jump out of the speeder while chasing Zam and do a Force-mind trick on the horned beast in the ring. So for him to rush in wildly at this point, disobeying Obi Wan and launching into battle with an obviously powerful Jedi (Dukoo) is no longer in character.

Personally, I found the action in the original cut to be just the thousandth example of his lack of discipline and the millionth reason why I didn't like the guy. Whatever happens at this point in the film, Anakin's action is one of the crowning decisions in the story. What does it say when he rushes in? He blames Dukoo for losing Padme? Maybe-- but we'd better amp up that sense of loss because it reads to me more like he just feels overconfident and pissed -- Losing Padme would excite more grief and stone-cold revenge seeking. "You're going to pay for killing the woman I love" -- Not "You're going to pay for all the jedi you killed today."

But Trooperman is seeing the footage and will have to go with what he thinks works best.