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MTHaslett

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13-Apr-2005
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4-Sep-2024
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Post
#160849
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
InfoDroid:

Thanks for the feedback-- there will be a time when someone will have to "break the tie" and that's likely going to be you. Glad you like my script to a degree. You say:

InfoDroid: "I will say, MTHaslett, your version has very good potential, and we may go with a version of it, but as it stands, it's a little too close to the original structure for me."

...And I must ask for clarification. What is wrong with the original "structure?" The problem I always had was that Obi Wan lies -- not the structure of the scene. I agree with Lucas that it seems weird for them to start by listening to a call to arms from Princess Leia and responding by sitting around telling stories and exchanging gifts.

So I can maybe make suggestions, can you say what would be an improved structure?

Long live "the Ranch!"
Post
#160601
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Yeah, I don't know what it is about my posts in here; they just keep getting overlooked. No big deal though, after a couple of reiterations my points get mentioned anyway.

I'm glad you liked my suggestion about revealing the truth to Luke on Dagobah before the leaves for Bespin. That, IMO, would be the most logical place for Ben and Yoda to tell him. He's nearly completed his training and is off to face Vader and save his friends. He deserves to know what he's up against. Did the Jedi think Vader wouldn't tell Luke he was his father, as they must have assumed Vader was aware of Luke's identity by then. Yoda does say in RotJ, "Unexpected this is, and unfortunate," so I guess they did. This takes care of the numerous issues of Luke knowing in ANH and early ESB. Luke's behavior towards Vader on Bespin could go either way, then at the end of the duel he would find out anyway, so the flow of Luke's character wouldn't be disrupted as it would be if we have dozens of scenes with Luke knowing Darth Vader is his father but not reacting to or doing anything about it. To be honest I think the saga would be alright the the revelation going down the way it already does, but if not, this would be the preferable alternative. The biggest challenge here would be Luke's reactions. If only he had worn his orange jumpsuit in RotJ...

In regards to a "Star Wars Saga Ranch-Edit Bible" thread, I am in agreement that we are in need of one, but how would we make sure to make it different from the threads for the specific movies? Surely the two would overlap? Like I said I'm all for it; I just want to know how exactly we should seperate the discussions from then on.


First -- the "bible" thread would just be the catch-all for the entire saga until either a) we got it all sorted out and begin a specific episode or b) someone gets a wild-hair to begin an edit (as InfoDroid has done here). But as we've seen, discussion of one breeds discussion of the others. Maybe THIS should be the Bible thread?

Second -- re: the logical time for Obi Wan to tell Luke about Vader -- If you look at it logically, there isn't any Jedi plan for getting Vader during ANH. Obi Wan is watching Luke while the Rebellion goes on somewhere else. Leia brings Luke and Ben together for a mission, but Obi Wan is not really up on current events and doesn't know where things stand or what chances there might be for defeating Vader. Deceiving Luke at this point can hardly be considered part of a plan -- it's more of a random act of misguided kindness or even condescending dishonesty ("You can't know the truth because you can't handle the truth." Oh really? Thanks for all your faith, Obi Wan).

If for some reason Obi Wan doesn't tell Luke the truth in ANH, then Degobah in ESB becomes the next logical place. But what is so illogical to you about Ben telling the truth in ANH? It has to be kept in mind that telling Luke in ANH does not affect Luke's interaction with Vader during the movie -- not unless we want it to. They do not ever meet or know each others' identities.
Post
#160585
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
One Last Post tonight:

I said I was coming up with a cut of Ben's Hut scene that had no flashbacks -- well, here's the script for it. It will require clever editing using coverage, non-synch dialogue, alternative angles created by masking Full Screen shots -- whatever tricks we can pull to cover this. But it's all taken from what's there and covers the bases: Luke's father turned to the dark side, became Vader, and hunted down the Jedi. The remaining point which would be made later in the movie is that Vader/Luke's father is still alive.

Here's the script:

INTERIOR: KENOBI'S DWELLING.

The small, spartan hovel is cluttered with desert junk but
still manages to radiate an air of time-worn comfort and
security. Luke is in one corner repairing Threepio's arm, as
old Ben sits thinking.

LUKE: No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a
spice freighter.

BEN: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your
father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten
involved.

LUKE: You fought in the Clone Wars?

BEN: Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.

LUKE: I wish I'd known him.

BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior.
I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a
good friend. Which reminds me...

Ben gets up and goes to a chest where he rummages around.
As Luke finishes repairing Threepio. Ben shuffles up and presents
Luke with a short handle with several electronic gadgets attached to it.

BEN: I have something here for you.

THREEPIO: Sir, if you'll not be needing me, I'll close down for
awhile.

LUKE: Sure, go ahead.

Ben hands Luke the saber.

LUKE: What is it?

BEN: Your father's light-saber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not
as clumsy or as random as a blaster.

Luke pushes a button on the handle. A long beam shoots out
about four feet and flickers there.

BEN: An elegant weapon for a more civilized time. For over a thousand
generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice
in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.

Luke hasn't really been listening.

LUKE: How did my father die?

Ben hesitates to answer, but then--

BEN: Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

LUKE: The Force?

BEN: Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy
field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us.
It binds the galaxy together.

Ben looks solemnly at Luke.

BEN: Your father was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil. He became
a Jedi named Darth Vader. He betrayed the Republic. Helped the Empire
hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. Now the Jedi are all but extinct.

Artoo makes beeping sounds.

Luke stares, lost in thought about his father. Ben rises and
crosses to Artoo and the recorded image of the beautiful young
Rebel princess is projected from Artoo's face.

Luke watches as the lovely girl's image flickers
before his eyes.

LEIA: General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone
Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire.
I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in
person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission
to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital
to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2
unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid
safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour.
Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.

There is a little static and the transmission is cut short.
Old Ben leans back and scratches his head. He silently puffs
on a tarnished chrome water pipe. Luke has stars in his eyes.

BEN: You must learn the ways of the Force if you're to come with me to
Alderaan.

LUKE: (laughing) Alderaan? I'm not going to Alderaan.

BEN: I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old
for this sort of thing.

LUKE: I can't get involved! I've got work to do!

BEN: That's your uncle talking.

LUKE: (sighing) Oh, God, my uncle. How am I ever going to explain
this?

BEN: Learn about the Force, Luke.

LUKE: Look, I can take you as far as Anchorhead. You can get a
transport there to Mos Eisley or wherever you're going.

Old Ben just stares at Luke without answering...

Post
#160581
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Right THX, that's just what I suggested:
The "reveal" had problems even as it was played in the OT -- not only did it make Ben a liar in ANH, but as he and Yoda train Luke and then watch him leave for Bespin -- why don't they tell him? He's their only hope (Leia ain't gonna take over where Luke left off). If they told him on Degobah, Luke may have stayed -- he would definitely be better prepared for the eventual revelation. But they don't tell him because it would screw up the "reveal."
Now THAT'S an idea. That would indeed be an ideal time to reveal the truth. Plus, there would be no need for out of place flashbacks to explain Obi-Wan's ghostly voice. It deals with a lot of my issues with RotJ as well; it took a YEAR to go back to Dagobah to get an answer as to Vader's identity? Obi-Wan NEVER appeared to Luke during that time to offer any kind of explanation or at least remind him to get back to this training? (I have more RotJ ideas on how to deal with those and other related issues, but those are for another time.)Very interesting concept here. Thoughts?

We were all posting at once and I think mine got lost in the shuffle so I'm glad you mentioned that again.

And yes MTH, you need to start that Episode I thread ASAP!



You know what, CC? I did miss this point when you posted it.

This is an interesting way of making Obi Wan honorable -- if we can't figure a way for Ben to come completely clean in ANH, then this becomes my second favorite tack. Ben could be made (as I believe TDH suggested) to avoid the issue altogether by simply not lying to Luke and making up a story about a pupil named Darth Vader who betrayed Luke's father. Until Degobah, Luke would have heard that his dad was a Jedi and that he died. Then, in Episode V he could hear the whole truth as he trains. It could be used to make Luke's "failure at the tree" about this revelation. Then he gets a vision about his friends and rushes off to save them -- and to face Vader, his father. This doesn't go well, but in Episode VI we see how it wisens Luke. He feels the good hidden in Vader and carries on to victory using this secret weapon.

This change would also tie Episode VI much better into the fabric of the Saga by keeping Ben honest, preparing Luke to sense good in Vader, and making his development arc more clearly into becoming the chosen one's redeemer.

But I consider this a "second best" idea to actually working out the Ben's Hut scene and reworking ANH along these lines. Still-- great idea, Commander.

Edited to add -- Re: the Episode I thread; I was working on starting one when I realized it might be prudent to do a "Star Wars Saga Ranch-Edit Bible" thread first. There we can hash out all the issues that crop up when we start talking about cutting one of these episodes to shreds. Like, I want to kill Nute Gunray -- but that affects Episodes II and III. If 3 of us are going to edit Episode I together, then I think we need to all get on the same page for the WHOLE SAGA first. Does that make sense? If so, I'll start that thread right away.
Post
#160564
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
InfoDroid --

This project is very much in your hands. As Trooperman is boss on SOTD, you have to be boss here. There are too many ways to do this and you're the one who's going to put in the hard work.

The intention, I believe, is to make an ANH that fits seamlessly into the Saga. The premise behind this notion is that Anakin's fall in Episode III puts the OT into a new context that could flow better out of Episode III with a little tweaking.

I've suggested that making Obi Wan honest with Luke will maintain a level of integrity that Obi Wan demonstrates in both the PT and the original release of ANH, but which is undermined by the "reveal" of ESB. Further, I suggest that "reveal" is undermined by the fact we all know Vader is Luke's Dad long before it is revealed to Luke.

But if we go down the road of telling Luke the truth in ANH, then we create a subtle but powerful difference in the story of Episodes IV-VI. Luke becomes a man with a secret, a dark heritage that he comes to deal with.

When he is told the truth in episode IV, he doesn't and cannot understand the full impact of it. He doesn't know who Vader is. He never once, in the original cut, acknowledges any recognition of Vader. The audience knows, but Luke does not. Even if you tell Luke that "Your father became Darth Vader" -- he still doesn't know what it means until he's gotten off the foresaken deserts of Tatooine and seen what it's really like in the Imperial controlled Galaxy. This barely has a chance to happen in ANH -- he sees Mos Eisley, The Death Star, the Rebel Base -- and that's it. He never meets Vader or has the man pointed out to him by name. He sees a big guy in black cut down Obi Wan, but does Luke know that man's name? There's no indication of it and no easy way to fit one in. I believe, at the end of ANH, unless we add it -- Luke does not know who Vader is. "Vader's my father, but who is Vader?" might sum up his position in the end.

An idea that will bring this movie home, then, would be to have Luke recognize Vader on the Death Star as the man in black who kills Obi Wan. Thus, his stunned reaction to Ben's death does double duty as the realization that he just saw his own father -- an evil man who murdered his mentor. His reactions through the rest of the movie should become more muted and somber, as this is a heavy thing to bear. If we can reinsert the reference that a pilot makes to Luke's father before flying off to Yavin -- this will have power to it. Then, ultimately, in battle -- Luke uses the Force and defeats these doubts and fears that have risen in him. He doesn't know Vader's on his tail. Vader doesn't know he's hunting his own son -- but the moment Luke trusts the Force he transcends these worries.

I believe that this movie thus becomes the story of a boy who finds out he has a dark heritage. But bravery and guidance from a friend help him escape that inheritance as he embraces the Force and becomes a hero.

I think that takes better advantage of "the story so far" -- giving us an Episode IV that grows out of Episode III more organically. But Jeebus help us, the changes can't stop there...

In Episode V, Vader is personally looking for Luke. Presumably, the man who destroyed the Death Star became a celebrity of sorts. Vader recognized the power of the Force in this pilot and the name "Skywalker" cinched the deal -- this had to be his son. Luke, meanwhile, has certainly learned who Darth Vader is -- but recognizes the need for training. With the knowledge that Vader is his father, he carries the burden of this heritage through his training. He knows he is preparing to do battle with the forces of the Empire. Chiefly, this must mean his own father -- at least to him. Receiveing visions of his friends in trouble -- he cannot stop himself and rushes off unprepared to save them and face Vader. His brashness costs him dearly -- especially when he discovers Vader knows of him and wants him to take a place at his evil side.

In Episode VI, Luke has escaped his brash encounter with his father. That experience has wisened him. He senses his true weapon against Vader is the good that still exists inside the villain. He chooses this path and heads into the final conflict with this in mind.

That is quite a bit different than what is there. To my mind, it plays a lot smoother as the redeeming of the chosen one. It doesn't seem so fast and loose when it comes to the material point: how is Vader to be redeemed?

Aside from all the aesthetic changes that could tweak the OT into a better match with the PT -- are we really on board for all these story changes that would come from changing the "Ben's Hut" scene?

I can say that "I am if you are." If you aren't, then we should set it aside. I will do this edit some day if we don't do it now. The rest of our changes here will make such an edit much easier.

More later.
Post
#160277
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
DemonHunter --

I see your points and can agree with most of them-- but we're talking about making a Complete Saga (I think). This way, there is no "OT" and "PT" -- just the Saga.

ANH is definitely a complete story about Luke learning the force. It doesn't need the next two movies to be a story -- so the "OT" is really two stories.

ESB and ROTJ combine to make the second story -- but it is a bumpy ride with a lot of structural flaws (charming and otherwise).

Put in the other three films and you have a lot of ways to see it-- it's a bunch of individually flawed movies, three or maybe four individual stories strung together, or two "big" stories, or ONE GIANT story -- this project is about the Giant Story (again, "I think").
Post
#160202
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
Originally posted by: TheDemonHunter
Personally, I feel that the reveal is not something that is "broken" in the saga. As THX said, having the audience know what Luke doesn't, does not ruin that moment. If you've seen the PT, you're just waiting for Luke to find out what the truth is. Seeing his reaction, seeing the look of betrayal and confusion on his face, that is what the scene is about.

I can understand the opinion that it's not broken since it is a much beloved part of the OT. But this point, along with the others you raise, have to be looked at in the context of the ENTIRE story of the Saga.

And that begs an analysis of the entire Saga upon which we can agree. In some respects, we may seem to disagree until we get more specific -- For example: Anakin is not the Main Character of the entire PT -- and I don't think anyone can seriously argue that he is as things stand. The reason I say this is that, although he's the Main Character of Episode II and III -- Qui Gon is the Main Character of Episode I. Anakin doesn't even show up until Act II of that story. He doesn't mean anything to that story until deep into Act II. But the PT is, I agree, SUPPOSED to be three movies about the fall of Anakin. That's the kind of problem I want to solve.

Originally, the OT was released as three movies about Luke Skywalker (with Han Solo getting his own Main Character Story tucked into Episode V). But that changed with the release of Episode I-- then came a second way of looking at the OT: as the second half of Anakin's story -- the redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

From that point of view, the shift to Luke in Episode IV is undermined -- Episode IV is no longer "ACT I" in any way. It's more like Act II of the saga.

I don't agree that waiting until Episode V for Luke to find out something we already know is a good enough reason to sacrifice Obi Wan and Yoda's integrity. The BIG PICTURE is exactly what I'm trying to protect -- Big Picture character arcs should take higher priority over protecting any story beat -- no matter how beloved. If we have a beat that violates a character's arc then it should go. The idea that they are "protecting" Luke from the truth is just nonsense. Protecting him from what? Would he be less likely to want to help Leia and the Rebellion if Obi Wan treated him like an adult and told the truth? Of course not. It is not honorable, serves no purpose, and makes Obi Wan and Yoda chumps when their little lie nearly destroys the Galaxy. It was a necessary evil in the design of the "Reveal" as done in 1980. But it is not central to the Saga and I'd like to see it go.

The Parallels between the OT and PT Episodes are mere echoes -- thematic notions. They are not structural and fall apart at any high-resolution examination. Luke at the tree can hardly be equated with Anakin ACTUALLY killing Sandpeople babies in any serious way. These echoes or parallels will still be there anyway. But Luke's vulnerablity to the Dark Side would now come from his inexperience and from the sheer power available to him from the Force. It shouldn't come from exposing a lie told to him by Obi Wan. Preserving anything like that at the expense of character is what I consider getting caught up in details and missing the big picture.

I love the "migraine maker" and can't wait for that edit. I know we have a lot of talented and insightful minds posting here. There are many edits that will preserve the Obi Wan lie and attempt to justify it and leave in Luke's surprise discovery of his parentage. I hope that we can find a different way with this one.

A big reason for me comes during ROTJ. When you look at that movie on its own, it's a structural mess. It has wide gaps in any Main Character story, created by its various sub-plots. Luke's story lacks the cohesive feel of the first two movies. Han's not a Main Character in his own sub-plot anymore as it gets picked up from Leia's point of view. Lando gets a sub-plot that has very little character development. Vader suddenly acts as if he mourns the loss of his life as "Anakin" -- a past we didn't even know existed and which makes him very different from the villain he was for the first two films.

This last part was the weakest part for me when the movie came out. The Star Wars films so far had been excellent in great part because Vader was so bad -- strangling people and cutting down Jedi. It was hard for me to accept a Vader who said things like "It's too late for me, my son."

But...

With the PT -- all that material took life. Suddenly ROTJ had a Main Character -- VADER/ANAKIN. His story is not interrupted. He appears in the first scene and goes through a clear dramatic arc-- the completion of which brings a cap to the whole Saga. We were not aware that he could be a Main Character in the first release because we had no way of getting into his head. But watching it "in order," there's no way to stay OUT of his head. All those close ups and pauses as he leads Luke to the Emperor are now full of meaning -- Anakin, deep inside, is having second thoughts. That didn't work for Darth Vader -- but it works fine for Anakin Skywalker.

So the Saga has a clear "intended" arc. But each Episode has its own issues screwing things up.

Episode I has no Anakin story -- the kid just blunders his way into the Naboo battle and wins the day without a hint of awareness of anything important happening around him.

Episode II has a truly unlikable Anakin going through the motions of a crisis without generating any real emotion.

Episode III has a great sense of emotion and completion to Anakin's fall (despite various opinions about the details). But it completes a story that wasn't working and which doesn't really mesh with...

Episode IV -- a nearly perfect movie, which in itself is violated by the continuity grafted onto it by the sequels. Suddenly and without any sensible motivation, Obi Wan lies to Luke about Anakin's life. Anakin, meanwhile, murders his old mentor and demonstrates in every way possible that there is no good left in him.

Episode V -- Obi Wan pulls Yoda into his lie and refuses to let it be exposed even as Luke rushes off into battle with Vader. Then Vader demonstrates in every way possible that no good remains in him.

Episode VI -- Luke starts talking about all the good he sees in Vader. Then, without half-trying, he gets Vader to all but admit it. Obi Wan tries to excuse his own lies and Luke intuitively brings about Vader's redemption without the benefit of anyone's tips, help or guidance. He just concocts a whole plan on the battlefields of Endor and jogs off to go redeem his dad. Lucky for the Rebellion, it works perfectly.

These Episodes could hold together nicely if they really were the fall and rise of Anakin Skywalker -- a gifted Jedi who was seduced by the Dark Side only to be redeemed by the power that his son finds in using the good side of the Force.

That story's just not really there... yet.

InfoDroid:
I love so many of the cuts in that little clip. Thank you! I love when Ben says "he was a good friend" and we cut between Anakin and Obi Wan. I love the image of Anakin's android hand as Ben says "he's mostly a machine now." The impact of it all mixed together is whopping. Excellent job!

I believe, however, that going from Ben's story to Ben handing over Anakin's lightsaber is a mistake. I think after hearing about his father, Artoo might interrupt with the message from Leia. This is the one thing that can stop Luke from pressing for more info.

Then Ben and Luke could go from hearing the message to Luke deciding to join Obi Wan-- without his declining first. Luke doesn't have to say "yes, I'll go with you"-- he can leave it hanging and we'll still know he says "yes" if we just don't hear him say "no." If we cut to them coming across the Jawas, we can tell that he's joined Ben without him saying so. Then we can go to Owen's homestead, find them burning and cut from that scene to Luke and Ben looking over Mos Eisley -- more or less. The missing beat of "I'll join you to Alderann" can be cannibalized in a way that sews it all together.

Sorry to say, perhaps, but your clip put me in mind of a way of doing the whole Ben's hut scene without flashbacks. I'm nearly through a version like that-- I'll post it as soon as I can.

I'll try to get an Episode I thread going soon. I've been real busy with sick people running around my house all day. Don't they know I've got important business!?
Post
#160148
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
Originally posted by: THX
Once again, I'd like to encourage your efforts and look forward to seeing the results. Now I'm going to offer some more constructive criticism. Please let me know if you don't find this process useful and I'll stop.

Movies work if and when the characters in them work - we understand and sympathise with their reasons and motivations and these tie directly to the plot of the movie. This is the biggest reason why the OT is better than the PT. If the audience loses touch with the emotions of the character(s), the movie ceases to move them. Now, as soon as Ben tells Luke his father is out there, Luke will have a specific goal - to find and confront his father- which is quite separate from his goal of rescuing the princess (and by extension the galaxy). However, for the rest of the movie, he makes no effort towards this goal. His reaction when he sees his father ("Ben!") is totally inappropriate. Thes factors will put the audience in a position of not understanding their hero - fatal for any movie.

Also, Luke's reactions toward Vader in ESB are totally inappropriate to the scenario you describe.

If you are set on this basic idea, I think you'd be better advised to just cut the "betrayed and murdered your father" bit from Ben's hut and figure out a way to have Ben tell Luke the truth about Vader on Dagobah in ESB.


That's quite a leap you're making in my opinion -- any farm boy who rushes off to confront his father, the dark Jedi, would indeed lose me. But a farm boy who's attracted by a message from a princess, learns that his father was not what his uncle said, and that a brave knight needs his help to rescue said princess -- that's a solid character-- and quite like what's there already.

You have no way yet of knowing what the edited Luke's reaction will be to seeing his father, so...

Gotta go, more later. Thanks for the loyal skepticism tho ;-) It's VERY welcome. These kinds of ideas need to be tested if they're ever going to work.
Post
#160096
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
Originally posted by: THX
Originally posted by: MTHaslett
It's hardly surprising to see how divisive the idea of Making Ben Tell the Truth is.
But you're not "Making Ben Tell the Truth", you're making him tell Luke Vader is his father, while withholding the fact that he tried to kill him. This is a selective truth, just like the official version.

they don't tell him because it would screw up the "reveal."

The same reason you don't have Ben tell Luke about his attempt to kill Anakin.

The "reveal" in ESB is broken in the Saga. We already know the truth. The only reason it worked in the OT as a "reveal" is that we didn't know.

I repeat: from the "saga" point of view, IT DOESN'T MATTER that we know Vader is Luke's father from the PT and he doesn't. The revelation still works if it's only to Luke, and it's arguably more interesting for the audience to be party to information that he doesn't have, wondering IF and WHEN he'll find out.

Question: How can Vader make the "shocking" revelation that Ben tried to kill him in ESB, when Luke watched Ben try to kill Vader in ANH?


You're answering your own questions. I said it won't be a shocking revelation. This version is not about having a shock at the end of Episode V, but telling a story about Luke coming to decide that redeeming Vader is a viable and smart thing to do -- basically fulfilling Anakin's prophecy and getting Anakin's potential as the Chosen One to surface. Vader revealing that Obi Wan tried to kill Anakin won't have anything like the effect of Vader revealing that he is Luke's father. Instead of being a beat about "Ben lied to me!" it'll be a beat about "Anakin is still alive in there." Vader's "reveal" that Obi Wan tried to kill him is on the order of subtext -- Vader tries to get Luke to switch sides by accusing Obi Wan of trying to kill him. Obviously that's not going to work, but it reveals a vulnerability in Vader that approaches desperation. He wants Luke.

At first that's the shock -- "He's not trying to kill me, he's offering me a job!"

Then, after reflection, Luke can honestly say "I sensed there was still good in him." Obi Wan did not lie and thereby hand Vader a giant advantage in swaying Luke to his side. Obi Wan simply spared Luke the gruesome details. Luke can hardly have expected Obi Wan to stand by and watch Anakin wipe out the Jedi.

You can argue that it's more interesting to watch Luke and wonder when he will find out that Obi Wan is a big fat liar and that he and Yoda set him up to be knocked on his ass by a revelation that the audience found out about three movies ago. But that version of the OT already exists. The SAGA is six films about Anakin and Luke's role in the last three films of the complete SAGA is hampered (imho) by this revelation. If the movies were made 1-6 instead of 4-6, then 1-3 -- the idea of a reveal wouldn't have come up.

It's an issue of cleaning up what's there vs. what's intended. If this is supposed to be seen 1-6 and tell the story of the fall and rise of the "chosen one" then the material can be massaged to tell that story clearer.

Post
#160088
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
Oh yeah -- I forgot to comment on the duel clip.

InfoDroid -- did you see nothing of value there? I agree with your comments about the mix, but I was pretty blown away by the general effect. The "Saga" version of the duel is much better reflected with the new music cues and sharper action.

I didn't understand why Obi Wan's line "run, Luke, run!" was replaced with Vader's voice. I think that jumps the gun because if Vader knew Luke were on the Death Star, he wouldn't give a good damn about dueling with Obi Wan.

I watch these two clips back to back and feel a much more "Saga" oriented movie already.

But there is an aesthetic choice you face, InfoDroid: what "look" are you going for?

Trooperman has the intention of "aging" the prequels. We are in danger here of "de-aging" the OT. My opinion is that the SE versions of the OT have many aesthetic changes that match better with the PT, but I think my ideal "Saga" would all have as much OT style as possible. That means music cues, story-telling choices, seamless effects (as much as possible-- avoiding bad CGI whenever possible), and "flash-frames" in the duels and laser-battles. But what do you think?
Post
#160075
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
It's hardly surprising to see how divisive the idea of Making Ben Tell the Truth is. It f**ks with the best known scenes in the OT.

But to go the route of more justification ("know their true lineage they cannot...") or to just avoid the issue until Vader reveals it to Luke has to be considered a back-up plan until it's proven that this cannot work -- at least in my opinion. The reasons are clear to me:

The "reveal" in ESB is broken in the Saga. We already know the truth. The only reason it worked in the OT as a "reveal" is that we didn't know. Not even Lucas knew.

The "reveal" had problems even as it was played in the OT -- not only did it make Ben a liar in ANH, but as he and Yoda train Luke and then watch him leave for Bespin -- why don't they tell him? He's their only hope (Leia ain't gonna take over where Luke left off). If they told him on Degobah, Luke may have stayed -- he would definitely be better prepared for the eventual revelation. But they don't tell him because it would screw up the "reveal."

Then ROTJ is all about Luke's sudden awakening to the good inside Vader. A "good" which was nowhere in evidence in any of the first two movies. But, by golly, Luke was right as Vader starts mooning around about his inner conflict.

This is the SPINE of the OT -- and it's fine and pleasant as they played out originally. They were astonishing and fantastic. But they barely hold together -- and with the introduction of the PT, they creak very loudly.

But IF (and I admit it's still a big IF) we can get Ben to be honorable. Get Luke to know his parentage. Make Yoda's training clearly about facing Vader. Make Luke's rash decision more informed. Vader's surprise will be less SHOCKING, but the same decision by Luke remains: he chooses to destroy himself instead of join Vader. But now that scene actually reflects some insight into Vader -- Luke knows Anakin is still inside there somewhere because Vader reaches out to him when we thought that side of Vader was dead.

Then ROTJ will have the power its supposed to. Then it really will feel like the CLIMAX of the Saga instead of the limping collapse of the Saga which is more how it feels to me now.

It'll be concrete ideas that sway anyone's opinion, I know. One thing I learned on the SOTD thread is that Trooperman's clear vision and dedication to crazy ideas (over-dubbing Anakin!?!?) won me over in the long run. I'm at the "drawing board" still with this "Ben Tells the Truth" version of the OT -- but I deeply believe it will improve the entire Saga.
Post
#159956
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Ok, I've reviewed the file. First off I must say you did an excellent job of picking scenes and accompanying music for the flashbacks, and even tried to work in an explanation for Obi-Wan's ghostly voice. However, seeing this test reinforces my idea that is is not the way to go. Maybe if we had Alec and Mark to refilm things for us here and there, but (to me at least) it's not looking like it's going to work. It's an interesting experiment, but think about that in the context of the film; flashbacks are NOT Star Wars style. And then there's the rest of the saga to consider; Luke's further discussions about Vader with Obi-Wan and Yoda, Luke first confronting Vader. I just don't see this scenario working. If only Lucas would release the deleted/extended scenes of the OT; the conversation between Luke and Obi-Wan in RotJ has much more to it. A key line there would be, "I was going to tell you when you completed your training," along with several others that might make Obi-Wan's "explanation" a lot more plausable.

EDIT: Here's the version of the duel I was talking about. I DID NOT DO THIS; This is from Darth Qui-Gon at TF.N. The picture quality is poor (from a SE VHS), and events shortened a little too much for my liking, but the music choices and transitions are excellent: http://rapidshare.de/files/6796739/Anakin_vs._Obi-Wan_ANH_edit.mpg.html


Rats, because I had the opposite reaction. The issue to me was exactly HOW to make this clip from InfoDroid into a more Star Wars-like sequence because all the other issues you bring up only get better with this change. The next discussion about Vader with Obi Wan and Yoda is in ROTJ -- those scenes improve by being trimmed. Luke doesn't need to say "I can't fight my father" and other lines which are forced and awkward because he didn't just learn his father's identity.

Instead, "Ben, why didn't you tell me" refers to why Ben didn't admit he killed Anakin. Not that it will be easy to pull off, but it's a much smoother arc as Luke decides to go redeem his father. He has now had the time to hope for redeeming his father since he first learned the truth. He tried destroying him-- now he'll try something else.

Flashbacks haven't appeared in Star Wars -- but if they ever did, it would be in Episode IV -- the one that covers a 20 year gap. And Episode III (and SOTD) have Flash-FORWARDS. I believe a similar visual treatment for this Ben's Hut sequence could make it more organic.

As to the edit itself -- I love the one underpinning change: Obi Wan does not lie.

To massage it, I would comment that the flashbacks cover too much material -- Luke shouldn't seem to see/hear that Obi Wan killed Anakin. I think the visuals need Vader. I wish there were less flashback -- I'll have to look at the material more closely to see what I can come up with.

I agree in concept with Commander Courage -- if this scene were done perfectly, there wouldn't be any flashback. But I guess we better know exactly what issues this scene creates, and how to solve them ALL, before you go a whole lot farther, InfoDroid.

That'll take us into discussing ROTJ with a lot of detail -- I love the ideas that are mentioned so far (although, I personally dislike the Jabba's palace sequence greatly. I'd want to massage it until it made some kind of sense because as it stands-- it makes Luke, Lando, Leia and Chewie into morons. What kind of plan did they come up with? ("Then, after Jabba catches you and makes you into his sex-slave, you choke him with your chain. Then get to the deck and I'll swing over and pick you up." Gah.)

But what a way to start off a thread, huh?
Post
#159804
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Time
Great work, InfoDroid-- I don't have time to get into everything right now, but I wanted to dip a toe into this new thread and shout out my support. I think this project should finally provide a thoroughly unified Saga experience -- no reason to justify anything with off-screen sources or look "from a certain point of view."

One of the biggest lurches in the Saga is the Episode V "reveal" of Vader as Luke's dad -- how do you handle that when the first 3 movies are all about it? Just stop making Obi Wan a liar and it all works better.

There are a lot of things like this-- hopefully we can weed them all out.

Awesome. Can't wait to get started-- but I have to go.
Post
#159777
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Time
InfoDroid--

Wow. That is awesome!

The feeling of having Ben go ahead and be honest brings a long forgotten sense of honor to that scene. He's not going to lie!! Obi Wan does not lie!!

Contributing to that feels good-- I want this version of ANH to complete my saga!

BUT

I don't believe this is part of the "Shroud of the Darkside" project anymore -- before giving comments I think we need an "InfoDroid's "A New Hope"" thread.

Then we should probably have a "Ranch-Style Episode I" thread too if we really want to hammer that one out.

But Jeebus help me, that little clip puts the whole Saga together in a new and better way for me. Now Luke's determination to bring his father back from the Dark Side doesn't happen so rapidly. One of my big problems with ROTJ is how Vader is such a bad-ass throughout ESB, but Luke still "senses the good in him" and gives birth to all kinds of sad and bitter-sweet close-ups of Vader through most of ROTJ. The bad-ass Vader is basically absent -- fallen into the void between ESB and ROTJ. But if Luke always knew who Vader was, this transition has a lot more time to work itself out. Thanks InfoDroid!

But enough-- this is SHROUD OF THE DARKSIDE territory!

Long Live Trooperman!
Post
#159647
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Time
THX: MTHaslett - somebody has to get you onto some editing software! Your analysis and reconstruction of TPM is the best I've read, bar none. All your ideas are streamlined and coherent. The trouble is, you'll never be satisfied with an edit which uses some of your ideas and leaves out others. So please, do your own edit.

***

Thanks for the kind words. I think when you go through this thread, you'll see how often I've been shaken off bad ideas and shown better ones, so I feel confident I'll be more than satisfied with Trooperman's work.

But...
InfoDroid and Trooperman and Commander Courage all editing Episode I together!? That sounds like a topic worthy of another thread!

I'd love to join in the fun, but can officially rule it out until spring. But at that point, maybe I could jump in for a last minute "hands-on" contribution.

I guess we probably need to start with the "bible" that Demon Hunter talked about.

---

InfoDroid -- I can't wait to see Ben's Hut!! How's it working out?! You know we're going to Hell for this, right?
Post
#159294
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Time
Trooperman,

I totally understand -- I am inspired by your take on AOTC and especially the idea of "aging" it to match the OT. I like everything you're doing and appreciate why it takes so long.

I could only hope you might see the shaping of the Saga as I do -- but I'm not bothered or even surprised that you don't -- it is radical to want to change the best loved of the films.

"Shroud of the Darkside" will patch the biggest hole in the Saga. I can easily imagine enjoying RotS "as is" much more after seeing your edit-- even with the voice problems. I've always loved "Mad Max" and "Road Warrior" even with the horrible dub job in the former. Of course your eventual Episode III will make it all better. As InfoDroid said, the OT can be justified as it is.

If I can get an editing set-up, I would LOVE to tackle my ideas for the other Episodes-- fielding your suggestions, it'll be great. It is the sum of everyone's thoughts here that makes me so excited about SOTD. I'll look into getting the set-up InfoDroid recommends.

You may not want to be the "boss" around here, but I think you do a great job as the mediator of this thread. As the man behind SOTD, I figure you're the defacto boss here.

Post
#158954
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Time
InfoDroid: "Seriously though, MTH, with the exception of editing down some of the long pauses between dialogue to make it more kinetic, and the musical additions/subtractions, what would you change?"

***

Okay-- first I want to make clear these changes are only to make ANH fit better into the Saga. Personally the first Star Wars movie is the best, the only one that stands on its own, flawlessly and magically. ESB is nice, but it doesn't end and we all know how that turned out ;-P

But to turn this into a Saga that one enjoys best in a 1,2,3,4,5,6 fashion, some sacred stuff will go if I have my way-- because the 1977 movie was the adventure of Luke Skywalker, but then it became "A New Hope" -- Episode IV in the adventures of Anakin Skywalker.

To embrace the Saga, I'd want more context-- I'd want to see what's the Emperor up to? Since this is our first chance to see Darth Vader in action, I'd tweak things to emphasize this point. I'd emphasize things that reveal Anakin inside the suit-- choices that would once make Anakin cringe now fill his life. I'd show some of Alderann to up the stakes of its destruction...

But the biggest change, and the biggest issue heading into the OT, regards the issue that Vader is Luke's Dad. As it stands, Obi Wan chooses to lie to Luke completely and basically set Luke up for a gigantic fall for no good reason. The only way this makes sense is if we can be kept in the dark about Vader's identity-- but now that's impossible. It's not even desirable or necessary-- make the change that redeems Obi Wan and makes him honorable again: have Ben tell Luke that Vader is his father.

It means manipulating the scene where he gives Luke the lightsaber. Have Ben explain that Anakin was a great Jedi and a good man, but that he was seduced by the Dark Side as sometimes happens. Those were harsh times and choices had to be made, so Luke was hidden from his father and Uncle Owen doesn't want Luke to know the truth. But now Princess Leia and the Rebellion need Luke.

Luke's reaction would be to join Ben more quickly, but on his trip to say goodbye to Owen, he finds them dead. His reactions throughout the rest of the movie are already, with minor adjustments, appropriate to acommodate this change.

And man, does it charge the rest of the movie up knowing that Luke already knows Vader's identity. It necessitates tweaks throughout, but not all that much.

Then, in "Empire Strikes Back," the adjustment needs to be made setting up Luke for the big reveal: that Obi Wan is the one who basically killed Anakin. Obi Wan didn't mention this. He lied! Vader doesn't want to kill Luke-- Luke can join him and rule the Galaxy! Defeated, and without options, Luke chooses suicide -- only to be rescued.

Then things carry on-- adjusting for these fixes as they go. (Along with a LOT more when we get to the crap-fest at Jabba's palace and the over-doing it with the Ewoks).

I realize this sounds drastic-- but it sure fixes things for me. Especially as regards fitting ANH into the Saga. In this draft, Obi Wan becomes as honorable as he seemed when the first movie was all there was.


Post
#158804
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Time
Yeah-- we ain't no where without our leader. And even then, being years away from completion? I'll have to get into this game myself and find out what set up I need to make a fan edit myself.

I'll have my list of things for ROTJ -- but it's brutal. The whole Jabba sequence makes so little sense ("...Let's see, Lando? You sneak in and gets a job as Jabba's guard. No wait, it'll work. Then send the droids in to threaten him and I'll come get caught after Leia gets herself caught while freeing Han. Then we'll all go to the Sarlac pit where Artoo will be in perfect position to throw me my lightsaber. Whattaya mean, how? Why, he'll be hired as a drink server of course! Aren't you paying attention?")

And that's the fun part of the movie!

Anyway, I think the best way to fix the Saga involves changes to ANH-- because it's the one movie that was written without the saga in mind. It plays all on its own, but as "Episode IV" it has a lot of problems.

Have I gone too far?
Post
#158764
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Time
Originally posted by: Commander CourageThat said, if you're going that route I think it's time you reconsidered editing the OT as well. Blasphemy, I know. Part of the problem with Star Wars is how seperate the PT and OT are considered; as good as the originals are, making all 6 films flow like a true saga requires alterations to both trilogies (besides, most of the "work" to be done to the OT has already been and will be adressed by MagnoliaFan and DarthEditous). I understand you are a strong defender of the O-OT, as am I, but this being your version of the saga, I think it's only fair to give the originals some attention as well after all the effort spent on the prequels. You are of course, the boss, and have the final word, but I would again encourage you to consider this.


Ulp. You went ahead and said it.

Well, I consider this essential IF the "Saga" is ever really going to hold together. If there are 6 Episodes, and Episode I sets it all up, then Episode I should come first. Naturally. Ideally.

That said, I think the Saga needs to address the "reveal" that Vader is Anakin as seen in Episode V. I've long been bothered by this because it actually screws with things in "Episode IV" which was written without that idea. Vader wasn't Anakin until the 3rd Draft of ESB.

I love the twist, but I don't like how Obi Wan went from being so cool when I saw Star Wars to being such a lying, desperate, guilt-laying old man in ROTJ. I have ways of addressing this -- and will if I have to do the editing myself. It's really a thorn in the side of the Saga.

And aside from a few good moments, ROTJ is a movie I just don't like. It is barely better than AOTC in any honest accounting, guilty of so many similar sins.


Post
#158571
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Time
Trooperman,

We haven't heard a lot from you, so I know you're busy. But you did say to get our ideas to you asap-- and I have these ideas on my desk. (And unlike all the other crap I've posted here this weekend-- this has to do with EPISODE II.

Ideas for snips and changes to enhance the droids and the emotion:

--"Feature" Artoo (with either close ups or more interesting "dialogue") at beginning of all sequences with Padme/Anakin (add Anakin dialogue "Hurry up, Artoo" as the approach Padme's family house) Insert close ups. -- arriving/walking across courtyard at Naboo; walking up to Padme's house; walking into Owen Lars farm.

--Key missing Sound effects: WIND needs to be added to the Kenobi/Windu talk on the flight deck -- it sounds like they're talking in a green screen studio (I wonder why?); There need to be cool Star Wars kitchen noises as Beru gets tea. More environmental noises (WIND, animal CRIES, ECHOES) on Geonosis exteriors. Muffled factory noises as Kenobi walks toward droid factory (everything is so quiet, like a church). Carpet the Geonosis interiors with loud/muffled factory noises (as the shots dictate)-- it's a frickin' factory, fer chissake. Add sounds of Sandpeople outside as Anakin saves Shmi -- they could arrive at any moment as he holds her, but he doesn't care.

--Shorten things as we arrive on Lars farm. 1. Threepio's awkward shuffle upon seeing Anakin is painfully bad to me -- I suggest you Cut off his line at "Oh!" when he hears why Anakin's there. Then have Threepio pause... "I see..." Then he walks off, knowing this is bad, but unsure what to say. 2. Next scene -- Cut off Threepio's introduction at "Master Owen..." (cut "Let me introduce two important characters..."). Let Anakin say "I'm Anakin Skywalker" Cut Owen's introduction of Beru completely - it's awkward and we don't need it. 3. Shorten the shots of Beru getting tea. Get us upstairs faster.

Recut Clieg Lars telling the Shmi story extensively: emphasize Padme and Anakin. It's cut now without a hell of a lot of thought-- I'll post my ideas for this soon.

When Padme says goodbye to Anakin before he races off to see his mom, they have a bunch of dialogue that means NOTHING! The awesome scene needs silence -- except for at the hug when she says "Anakin." Bringing up the music cue earlier will make the scene work as it's supposed to-- play the entire piece instead of cutting it off the way it is now.

--It is possible to have too many close ups, apparently. The end of Anakin/Padme scene in garage where he cries about not being a good enough Jedi-- the close ups actually ruin the tension because they are not good. The scene plays better from the master shot, and there's plenty of it. I recommend cutting those close ups of Anakin and Padme.

--Another Artoo scene: The arrival of Kenobi's message. First, move it between the Anakin/Padme garage scene and the funeral-- so Kenobi's invading Anakin's private space again. Second, Give Artoo a more animated job trying to get good reception: He sees Kenobi, but the message fizzles; he turns to plug into the wall, he struggles to keep a lock on it, his whistles and chirps say "Come on-- come on-- come on, you bastard, work!" and then finally, "Got it!" That could be a charming Artoo bit, right in character for him and welcome at this point in the story.

--There's too much emphasis on the shot in the Arena of Boba Fett holding Jengo's head -- I recommend shortening it ever so slightly and making it a bit of a "background" shot by playing the rocket sounds of taking off ships loudly as he holds the helmet -- everyone's leaving and no one cares... I think this will play more poignant and less as an interruption.

That's all I have for now. I will have to get back to you with details about how I'd fix the Clieg Lars tells Shmi's story scene. I see clearly how it should play more off Anakin and Padme's faces -- not Clieg. Who cares to look at that guy while he talks? The point is supposed to be Anakin getting pushed to the edge-- but you'd never get it from the way that scene is cut.


Thanks for reading. You are King of the Ranch!
Post
#158559
Topic
Idea: Sifo Dyas removal from AOTC?
Time
Commander--

Re: using Qui Gon -- to give you some feedback

I think you've got a great idea there. It charges up a scene that otherwise feels mystifying and ultimately forgettable. Sypho Dias just disappears into the smoke, but Qui Gon makes you prick up your ears and really want to know what's going on--

Which would be the only downside I can see-- it would be more important to sew this up with Qui Gon's name thrown in there. How would you ultimately expose that it was Dukoo using his old apprentice's name? Do that and you've got my favorite solution.
Post
#158477
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Time
Commander Courage:
Ok, now that you break it down I better understand your ideas as well, and we are indeed on the same page. I still think "Always mind your surroundings" is a much better fit for Obi-Wan looking to the lightsaber than Anakin finding the right button in the starfighter. But the connection we'd be establishing here would be between Anakin and Qui-Gon, no one else.

***

Right-- if it gets to be Qui-Gon and Anakin and Obi Wan-- then why not Yoda? Why not Mace? It gets too broad-- but keeping it on Anakin helps fix what's broken: namely, the spine of the story.

I think you're right about the line. I was just whipping it together, and "Always mind your surroundings" doesn't really work, especially after Qui Gon's fallen. Better and simpler would be to see Qui Gon struggling to hold on to life -- cut to Anakin struggling in the cockpit -- "ANAKIN!" yells Qui Gon's voice, desperate, unable to communicate everything he wants to-- "ANAKIN!" Anakin makes a decision on his own: I'll blast this mot**r f**ker! Is Qui Gon glad? Is Anakin showing his darker side? Leave it more emotionally charged and less logical and dot-dot-dot.

---

Commander Courage:
That I like, but what about the explanation of the Force spirits? I believe TM's plan for that was to cut Yoda's mention of Qui-Gon on RotS and have his ghost appear ever so breifly as Obi-Wan walks back into the desert after delivering Luke (oh, and a way must be found to remove the Eopie from this scene!). Will that be enough? I hope so. More on that another time.

***

I think that is a great solution -- visuals over exposition. I don't think it affects this storytelling choice in Episode I -- except to maybe explain how a dying Qui-Gon was shown powers he didn't know he had by being in communion with the chosen one as he died. Not that we have necessarily established that-- but it is there if you look for it. That's better than the "well, he just came back from the other side to give us a little help" explanation that's there now.
Post
#158415
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Time
Commander Courage:
Thanks for reminding me of your thoughts-- I get it now and I see where we depart. I would object to hearing so much Qui Gon spread around as you suggest. I want his link to be just with Anakin -- you seem to feel it would be more in line with established Jedi powers for him to spread good advice as he "crosses over," in a way similar to Obi Wan in ANH. I'm reaching for something new, something that only "the Chosen one" makes possible.

Here are the beats as I imagine them:

--Anakin's Naboo Fighter crashes into the droid ship hanger and stalls-- surrounded.

--Padme and her team get captured.

--Qui Gon meditates behind the red shield waiting to reach Maul/Grievous -- AS HE MEDITATES: he contacts Anakin with advice: "Concentrate on the moment"

--Anakin receives the message: he looks around, flipping switches -- no good.

--On Qui Gon: the red shield opens. Qui Gon fights with Maul/Grievous. He gets stabbed. Obi Wan Screams! CUT TO:

--Anakin screams (Using a shot from his dogfight/sound from Danny "The Shining") --

-- Red shield opens again, letting Obi Wan attack Maul/Grievous. Qui Gon lies in a heap...

--Qui Gon's voice in Anakin's head " be mindful of your surroundings..." Anakin pops the trigger on the torpedoes. He blasts away, yelling.

-- Cut outside, the chain reaction starts destroying the ship. Anakin gets the ship going and leaves.

-- Droidship explodes.

--Droids fail on battlefield.

-- Obi Wan kills Maul/Grievous

-- Anakin flies home, looking distraught (using Naboo fighter footage and Anakin shots from the dogfight -- montaging into nicer end of battle stuff) hearing Qui Gon's Tone Poem. We establish the victory which Anakin has brought about. Finish on the saddest shot of Anakin we can find.


---


That's the headlines of the idea. I don't know if we're really so far apart on this. I think the major difference is I want the construction of a shocked/hurt Anakin reaction to Qui Gon's death. I think that's the moment this whole movie should have been building toward. This is, after all, a saga about Anakin.

That was the promise made to me by all that great marketing! (Great points about that stuff, InfoDroid -- especially about the music, I hadn't thought of it, but you are right in my opinion).

Last point: it's these quiet moments about character decision/reflection/change that are so powerful in the OT and so stilted, truncated, or just fouled up in the PT. I think the tone-poems feel OT as trailers because they have a similar poetic quality. They represent a real resource for getting that kind of poetic quality into the Prequels. We should think creatively about ways to get them in-- not just any old excuse, but great, creative ideas that could allow them to be incorporated as voice over, inner monologue, actual dialogue or whatever.


Post
#158354
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Time
Commander Courage --
Yeah, I've been struck by ideas for Episode I ever since hearing the idea of cutting Sidious. I ain't consciously trying to make it as much like ANH as possible, but I think you're right -- that's what I seem to be doing. It really comes down to trying to make the movie a stand-alone story. As much as possible. I think that's what the first Episode should do. I am totally into discussing this stuff to get the best movie possible. I am guided most by the power and emotion I got from the Phantom Menace marketing-- that stuff had exactly the right "Every Saga Has a Beginning" tone-- but the movie fell short.

I suggest the biggest ways the movie falls short (among a crowd of "ways") is in the end. Disarming the Trade Federation means nothing when you know Sidious is the real boss; The characters who carry out the final battles suffer various problems (Jar Jar stinks, Padme is stiff and unconvincing, and Anakin wins by accident). But the biggest structural let-down is that there's nothing going on character-wise. No one is in danger of growing, experiencing change, or being faced with a leap-of-faith decision.

The most obvious center of interest is Anakin, the central figure of the entire Saga. The final battle in Episode I, I submit, has to affect him personally.

Originally posted by: Commander Courage
I think many of your other suggestions are overdoing it a bit. I had no intention of delving into this at this time, but I can't help myself, let us discuss:

It sounds like we "disagree" on just a few points, so let's discuss those--

No need for them to die, as InfoDroid points out, Darth Vader survived ANH after all. Since Nute is being made into a more formidable adversary why kill him off in 1 when he is in 2 and 3 already anyway? The notion of "Carl" is amusing but would create more problems than it would solve.

Having Nute escape could drain a lot of power out of the end if it isn't done right. Vader may have escaped in ANH, but Tarkin did not. Nute is the big cheese, not the henchman. If he escapes, then even less is accomplished than in the original cut where he is at least captured. If he can escape in utter defeat somehow, that might work, but the emphasis has to be on his defeat, not his escape. I know blowing him up will FEEL the best. The joke of "Carl" is undermining a logical solution-- there is nothing special about Nute other than his position atop the Trade Federation. Having a replacement character whose characterization is submissive and weak, like the current Nute, solves everything while creating only the problem of covering his "introduction." Once it's established that the new submissive "Viceroy Gunray" is there to replace the blood thirsty bastard who died in Episode I, everything else stays the same.

I posted some very specific ideas on this a few pages back, and those stil stand. No lashing out in anger with the torpedoes, just Anakin "concentrating on the moment" and all that.

I apologize, but I don't remember -- why no lashing out in anger? If Anakin feels Qui Gon's death, then we have an opportunity for the emotional growth that is so sorely missing in this movie. If he lashes out emotionally, then we get a hint of the danger everyone senses from this boy. If all he does is "concentrate on the moment" and do good Jedi stuff, how is it different than the pod-race?

I must be promised this music be used somewhere else in the PT though! (I'm thinking Episode 3)

Sounds good to me! What do you make of the "now we will have our revenge" line? What is Maul getting revenge for? Was this ever brought up again? Did Dukoo want revenge too? I didn't get it.

I can see where you're going with this but it doesn't do much but cause more confusion IMO. Outside the first Padme conversation this would seem totally out of place. If it could be achieved in this one scene only however, I might go along with it. You're absolutely right about her reactions.


Well, outside the first Padme conversation I wouldn't want to do it much. The only other places I'd want it was in the climax-- establishing the link with Qui Gon -- and in the farewell with his Mom (to be discussed). I saw many scenes that MIGHT improve with this technique, but less is usually more. I think this first meeting is the biggest place where this "power" can help-- it gives Padme a secret she knows about Anakin which Qui Gon discovers in his own way. It also creates a sense of interest and suspense-- what will happen with this special boy? That's a much better sense than what the scene currently achieves -- which is basically "A meets B and we all know what that means, so there's no need for any actual emotion to occur in this scene."

-Interesting opinion on the Japor snippet scene, but I think some dialogue is needed to establish just what it is Anakin's giving to Padme.


If you're right, which I'm not sure you are because I think it's clear enough in the visuals, then this little bit of dialogue could be done in the telepathic way of their first meeting and mean a lot more. This scene has good visuals, but awful dialogue. If this were a second instance of Anakin speaking without words, it would reinforce a special connection between Anakin and Padme -- a good thing.

-The rest of your editing suggestions on Coruscant I disagree with, as I think they are fine as they are in the movie.


I might agree with you if the entire Coruscant sequence didn't bring all momentum to a halt. Exposition by the truckload is covered, but dramatically the only accomplishment is that Amidala decides to go back to Naboo. The staggering of Senate stuff/Council stuff/Senate stuff/Council stuff slows everything even more and interrupts a couple of nice character arcs-- Padme's realization that the Senate can't help is nice, but I urge you to imagine a version of the movie where the same insights come faster and get us back into the meat of the story faster-- and the Jedi Council stuff is repetitive and underwhelming in a couple ways because attention is split between Qui-Gon's frustrations and Anakin's growing awe/unease. I would recut to emphasize Anakin's p.o.v. by reducing Obi-Wan's role -- honing things down to Qui Gon/Anakin.

Qui-Gon's [tone poem] will work because of his voiceover nature at that point. The rest, not so much. And I thought Anakin's goodbye to his mother was excellent.


I respectfully disagree about the goodbye -- just like Infodroid, I find it stiff and forced when it should be soft and poetic -- something the tone poem accomplished. With Anakin's ability to speak without words, this tone poem could actually play in the movie and do double duty to establish the mental link with Shmi that plays such a huge role in Episode II. Maybe not the whole dang poem, but a couple key lines and smoother editing and the scene would play WAY better to me.

Nice! Anyway, I hope my criticism has been constructive, and I of course look forward to further discussion on this matter.


Me too! These ideas got me fired up about what Episode I could be. SOTD has me jazzed about Episode II -- and I'm already a fan of the release cut of ROTS. It can only get better with careful treatment from Trooperman. I think we have a good chance of "rescuing" the entire PT. I think SOTD will have the power I got from the AOTC marketing. If Episode I could become as emotionally satisfying as the ads promised it would be, we'd really have something!
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#158211
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Time
Ha! Yeah-- it cuts out a lot of stuff, but GEEZ is this a long movie!

The first act ends with the decision to race Anakin in a contest to get the parts for the Queen's ship. That happens at about minute 40!

The story is so poorly structured that the movie basically flops around trying to cover all the bases --

But picking a story to tell makes a lot of that stuff unnecessary.

It would actually leave room to add some of the basic OT ingredients that are missing -- like the charming droid sequences and the long panoramic shots that established Tatooine in ANH. All the stuff Trooperman is trying to work back in.

"Gunray. Carl Gunray. At your service. You killed my brother. Prepare to die."