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MTHaslett

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13-Apr-2005
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4-Sep-2024
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Post
#162329
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162329/action/topic#162329
Time
My feeling about Grievous/Maul going to Tatooine without being instructed to is that it won't make sense. We'd see Amidala escape from Naboo, see no response from the Trade Federation, but suddenly see a guy in black arrive on Tatooine and send out droids. The droids find Qui Gonn -- they fight, Qui Gonn escapes -- and... what just happened? Then Grievous shows up on Naboo and fights the Jedi there -- and I'm supposed to gather that he wants to capture Anakin? What about when he just lets Anakin fly away in the Naboo fighter?

It's so much stronger as a story to have Nute in charge -- he sends Grievous, he starts the invasion, he fights the war, and his destruction ends the battle. Grievous is a "lieutenant" in the mix who represents a hidden party (Sidious). Like ANH, Episode I should feel like a complete story that has just enough of a loose thread to see a possible sequel. But on the surface, the Republic is saved, the Naboo are saved, Anakin becomes an apprentice, and the Gungans get back their Kaiber crystal (or whatever). Opening up too much ambiguity is the biggest flaw this Episode I has, imo. The first time I saw the parade at the end, I remember thinking about how much had been left undone. Way too much. I think the best version of this movie will really come home at the end and feel surprisingly complete.

As to the potential scene of Maul's reconstruction. I don't see why it can't be done as an early scene in Episode II -- maybe I'm seeing something no one else is. I think the questions about why it takes so long and why more people aren't ressurected will be answered by this little scene which uses footage from the Vader construction and other places. I see Sidious coming in to check on Grievous, who's stretched out on the table (we key in on his eyes). Robot surgeons report to Sidious, "He will live a long life. That's a success. There's too little left to make him a warrior again, I'm afraid. The heart and mind will not function at a competant level without more tissue." "We will make them." replies Sidious. "Yes, master." Says the droid. Key in on those Grievous eyes again. -- In other words, this is one hell of a long and agonizing process and it's a pet project of Sidious'. Putting this scene into the beginning of Episode II will actually make the Dukoo/Sidious relationship harder to spot and more surprising in the end. Having it there will help protect the Palaptine/Sidious reveal. It will also set up things pretty much as they are in Episode III -- no monologuing necessary.

Episode II is oddly short of Sidious material as it is.

My god do we have a lot of ideas to catalogue in this thread. Plus competing versions of the same ideas sometimes. We should do a re-cap soon.
Post
#162131
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162131/action/topic#162131
Time
Just about everyone I know can do a passable Yoda impression -- I have a different idea what the lines should be since "Lead them down the darkside it will" is just nonsense and dishonesty masquerading as wisdom (and I'm agreeing that's the reason provided in the Saga -- I just call nonsense on that reason).

I'd be all for this addition if a better reason for lying can be employed.

Second, if having Maul/Grievous is counter to the whole concept of the Sith and it's "Rule of 2" then what are Vader and the Emperor talking about when they repeated say Luke will "join them?" They don't say "replace one of us."

Clearly there is no rule of 2 from the Sith point of view. Maybe the Jedi believe there is, but that's just more confusion, apparently.
Post
#162097
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162097/action/topic#162097
Time
A follow up thought: assuming I can give instructions for cutting together a "reconstructing Grievous" scene -- I think I know where it should go:

The only logical place for it is as soon as possible after Maul is killed -- so it either goes into the end of Episode I or the beginning of Episode II.

In Episode II it would go something like this:
Theme music/opening crawl
Amidala's ship lands -- BOOM!!! Terrorism!
Cut to: Sidious' secret facility where droids report on their progress at restoring Grievous. Sidious scowls.
Cut to: The Jedi meeting with Palpatine.

Hmm?

I don't know.
Post
#162095
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162095/action/topic#162095
Time
I love all those reasons, as CC outlined them earlier. But I can't remember one thing, and I wonder if this is what people have a hard time with: HOW do we convey the info that Maul became Grievous? It seems like the kind of thing that deserves real fanfare.

I wonder if some type of "reconstructing Grievous" scene would help? I'd have ideas for doing it if we needed it. The downside of this idea is that it would have to occur in Episode II (Shroud of the Darkside) -- and would probably stick out like a sore thumb.

So how do we convey that Grievous was reconstructed before he joined Dukoo? Maybe a missing Dukoo/Grievous scene? Cut them into the same room. Take some of the Sarumon/Orc dialogue from LOTR? "You are to find the [Jedi]!"

I'm just spit ballin'

InfoDroid: That clip is incredible. I think the scenes being cut together has definite possibilities, but it might not work in the "big" picture.

I think the flow of dialogue with Maul/Grievous should cover many of the points Commander Courage suggests in his dialogue. I agree with you, however, that Gunray can't seem too impressed by Grievous. He should treat Grievous like an equal-- at BEST. Maybe even talk down to him. I also think the scene as you cut it could end with one last shot of Maul -- I don't think we need to hear what Gunray and his flunky say after they talk to Maul -- leave them all on the same page: GET AMIDALA!!!

This all brings up a point I don't quite understand. Dukoo tells Obi Wan that Sidious betrayed the Viceroy ten years ago. He's referring to Naboo, I presume. What does he mean? Sidious did everything he could to help and only the blind luck of the Gungan/Anakin victories foiled the plan. It is even possible that if Maul had killed Obi Wan that he could have personally grabbed the Queen and snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. So where was the "betrayal?" Or was Dukoo lying? If he was lying, why? To persuade Obi Wan to join him? He's clouded my mind with confusion. He must be a Sith. Is that the point? Just curious.

Post
#161877
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161877/action/topic#161877
Time
THX: To be honest the whole Qui-Gon discovers the secret of immortality sub-plot isn't too hot. It would be better just to cut it than run rings trying to explain it. (Aah, that's more like it, THX).

***

Lol!

To be fair, I know a lot of fans had real gripes about the "disappearing Jedi" rules. But I was never one of them. I'd be for cutting the reference too if I thought we could get everyone on board.


---

THX: But I do feel that Qui-Gon, sensing he might fail, prepared for the other side in advance, while Maul was held back by the red force-field. It wasn't explicit and could be interpreted in many ways but it was reminiscent of Ben's calm before he disappeared in ANH.

***

We haven't gotten to the real "bible" version of Episode I yet, but I'm hoping to exploit that "meditation moment" to establish a link between Qui Gonn and Anakin -- he's reaching out to Anakin there and trying to help the "chosen one" as he battles Maul. He's collecting himself and conserving energy -- not preparing to lose. The big difference between this and Obi Wan's death is Obi Wan had a practical purpose for letting himself be cut down. I think you're suggesting that Qui Gonn is somehow snatching a small victory from the mouth of defeat -- a defeat that was by no means certain since Obi Wan shortly dispatches Maul all by himself.
Post
#161869
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161869/action/topic#161869
Time
What exactly are our plans for Qui Gonn to reach Anakin from beyond the grave?

Subtle or unsubtle, we have to know what we're trying to say. I already think Qui Gonn's death is different. Making him disappear will make him more similar to the other deaths. But we are probably not looking at this the same.

Here's how I understand things: Qui Gonn was killed. His spirit (seperate from the "secret of immortality" that he learns) goes to the great beyond where all spirits go. But rather than rest in that "other world," Qui Gonn's soul searched for the secret of how to return. He discovered it and used that secret to communicate with Yoda and teach him this trick. Yoda, in turn, taught Ben. Then, when the "chosen one" was redeemed and died -- his power and importance were enough for these others to "catch" him and for him to quickly learn this trick as well.

Anakin's body need not disappear any more than Qui Gonn's by this reckoning. The disappearing body is merely what happens when you consciously "do" this trick. Since niether Qui Gonn nor Anakin went through the meditative preparations, they did not "take" their body with them.

Since they are "immortal" only in the sense that they can now communicate with people on this side (apparently, in a limited way that works best with people in tune with the Force) -- the body is practically irrelevant. Ben didn't take his body to use it-- he just disappeared in a way that indicated his death may not be as complete as you would assume.

THIS, by the way, is the reason I love Vader's silence as he pokes around Ben's robes with his foot. What should he say? He's never seen THIS before. He presumes he's killed Obi Wan, but then again something's not right. Ben had warned him not to strike Ben down. His reaction is the way a bad-ass says "what the hell was that?" Making him say "It is finished" makes Vader a sap who can't see that something odd just happened. He's cut down dozens of Jedi and none of THEM disappeared. Why is this one different, he should wonder. If he doesn't wonder, then he's a fool. I prefer a Vader who isn't a fool. I prefer a bad-ass.
Post
#161859
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161859/action/topic#161859
Time
Re: Jedi disappearing as they die --

I have a couple issues to settle with what's being discussed here'bouts. Maybe someone can set me right.

Why does Qui Gon have to disappear to set up his reappearance? He learned how to commune with the living from "the other side." He didn't know how when he died. He didn't prepare for it the way that Ben and Yoda did. And if he disappears in the funeral pyre, then people have to react to it (unless everyone disappears during their funerals -- and if that's the case, what's the point?) THat will add one more very heavy element into an already crowded scene. The actual missing part of that scene is the grief that Anakin should be feeling. Rather than listening to Mace and Yoda, we should have a close-up of Anakin where we can see the burning confusion in his eyes. He's been torn from his mother by a father figure who's burning right before his eyes - is this all that Anakin hoped it would be? I bet not.

So I recommend Qui Gon simply burn away as shown-- unless CC can straighten me out.

Second, I point out that when these Jedi disappear, they leave behind their cloaks and blankets. They disappear in only part of their garments -- leaving something behind. I don't think seeing Darth Vader's costume disappear from his funeral pyre will work. Anakin is inside that thing -- he won't need the costume where he's going and he isn't wearing it when we see him. If Vader is to disappear, I suggest it has to happen on the Death Star when Luke has removed his mask. He should somehow disappear from inside the costume, leaving Luke with an empty shell.

Don't know exactly how to do it. Aftereffects? Photoshop? Wishful Thinking?
Post
#161729
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161729/action/topic#161729
Time
Okay, Trooperman--

Here are my ideas, as promised, for re-cutting the Cliegg Lars breakfast table scene. As it stands, it's a weirdly edited scene that features Cliegg trying to drum up excitement over his story. The scene should have played out over the reactions on Anakin and Padme's faces. That's what I want to create. Here goes--

INT. TATOOINE, HOMESTEAD, KITCHEN - LATE DAY
BERU puts several steaming cups of ardees on a tray and exits the kitchen... (Trooperman: ADD cool kitchen sounds like in ANH)

CLIEGG (O.S.)
It was just before dawn. They
came out of nowhere. A hunting
party of Tuskin Raiders.

We follow Beru upstairs...

INT. TATOOINE, HOMESTEAD, DINING AREA - LATE DAY
CLIEGG, OWEN, PADME and ANAKIN sit around the table, BERU brings the drinks from the kitchen.

(TROOPERMAN: Try cropping the Full Screen shot of this -- make more interesting composition, like the time Luke had a meal here. Try to lose Padme taking off her coat-- what's up with that?)

Re-synching/Changing dialogue without cutting: (Match Cliegg saying "halfway" with lip-flap as his mouth forms the word "evaporator." Move the preceding dialogue up until the whole thing plays. Remember there can be nice... long... pauses... it is an emotional scene.)

CLIEGG
From the tracks, she
was about halfway when--

CUT TO: c.u. of Anakin.

CLIEGG (O.S.)
--they took her. Those Tuskens walk like
men, but they're vicious --

CUT TO: c.u. of Padme.

CLIEGG (O.S.)
--mindless monsters.

CUT TO: c.u. of Cliegg.

CLIEGG
Thirty of us went after her.
Four of us came back.

CUT TO: c.u. of Anakin.

CLIEGG (O.S.)
--I don't want to give up on her, but
she's been gone a month.

CUT TO: c.u. of Padme.

CLIEGG (O.S.)
--There's little hope she's lasted this--

CUT TO: c.u. of Cliegg (use image of him saying the word "heal..."; trails off, looking sad and broken)

CLIEGG
--long.

CUT TO: med. 3- Shot. Anakin stands as Owen and Cliegg look on.

OWEN
Where are you going?

ANAKIN
To find my mother.

CUT TO: c.u. of Padme (the one they used after all dialogue is over. Time the shot so her eyes turn down when she hears the line "accept it.")

CLIEGG (O.S.)
Your mother's dead, son. Accept it.

CUT TO:

EXT. TATOOINE, HOMESTEAD, MOISTURE FARM - LATE DAY
ANAKIN stands looking across the desert. PADME comes running out of the homestead after him. ANAKIN turns to PADME.

(speed this fu*ker up-- we see that hut for a good 2 seconds before she comes out the door, why?

--Start the "Binary Sunset" cue (or whatever it's called) early, like here... Let it play out more completely before cutting to the next location)

Anakin and Padme hug-- we see only their shadows. No dialogue except...

PADME
Anakin...

ANAKIN walks over to Owen's speeder bike, which is standing close by.

ANAKIN takes off across the desert. PADME watches him go.


***

This version keys us more into Anakin's head and Padme's concern for him. She's there with him every step of the way. When he decides he has to go, she's right there with him and nothing needs to be said. She hugs him and says his name to show her support ...and he goes. Much more romantic to my way of seeing it.

Thoughts?
Post
#161624
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161624/action/topic#161624
Time
InfoDroid: Now, if you're still insistent that Maul needs to be affiliated with the Federation, then we will HAVE to include at least one scene with Sidious where Gunray and Maul are both taking orders from him. Otherwise, it just won't add up, IMO.

***

I think I see what you're saying -- it sounds like we want the same thing, but I think I have a way to get there with Maul working with Gunray and leaving Sidious a mystery.

It all comes down to the scene where (in the current version) Sidious introduces Maul. Notice -- Sidious and Maul are both wearing cloaks. So we can do shot/reverse shot with Maul and Gunray using the close ups of Maul and the reverse shots of Sidious to double as the back of Maul's head.

The dialogue will be to the effect of "We need help, let's bring in Grievous. Sidious promises he's good." They dial up Grievous/Maul: "Grievous -- go get Amidala. I need to torture her until she signs my treaty."

Set up enough of a Gunray/Maul/Sidious relationship to keep the action clear, but leave room for Sidious to step in later. By the end of the movie, when Yoda and Mace wonder if they met the Sith master or apprentice, audiences will know that somewhere out there a Sith named Sidious awaits... Then we pan over to Palpatine. This is kind of like how Tarkin mentions the Emperor in ANH -- it just sort of flies past until you think about it later.

That will get us both what we want, I think. Thoughts?
Post
#161616
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161616/action/topic#161616
Time
InfoDroid: But you forget, we're never going to see Maul and the Trade Federation together anymore. Not in one scene. Maul now appears three times: 1) on Tattooine with the probes. 2) to fight Qui-Gon in the desert and 3) he disappears until the doors open in the hangar on Naboo.

***
I didn't forget this -- it never crossed my mind. I don't think it's a good idea -- if anyone's asking. The scene I want to introduce Maul is the same one that's there-- only we cut it so that Gunray is contacting Maul instead of talking to Sidious. This is essential to my estimation of the storyline, so I guess it's good we're putting together a Bible, huh? ;-)
Post
#161505
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161505/action/topic#161505
Time
Commander --
Now I see what you're saying -- if it's not an "either/or" situation with the "___ once thought how you do" line then we can have the Obi Wan "Anakin" beat AND have Vader say "Your mother once thought..." I agree, that would work. It would work great because the Obi Wan beat feels necessary to bring ANH fully into line with ROTS, but the reference to "Your Mother" is much more on-point with why Anakin became Vader and what he would be thinking about while facing Luke. It should be kept in mind that in the Saga version of the OT, Vader is carrying a hidden and painful torch for his lost wife. He was seduced to the Dark Side, but the good part of him loved Padme and let that love deceive him that he might be able to give in to temptation and get away with it. Some reference to Padme is ESSENTIAL to making ROTJ as good as it should be. I think seeing her in the end as a ghost will feel awkward unless we can come up with a simple explanation and get Luke to be more aware of who Padme is.

Demon Hunter --
I'm glad to have your permission for my pet project. It will take a while--late next year probably.

InfoDroid--

I think you're right that Episode I is the place to start. Trooperman did say ROTJ would take less time, and I optimistically took that to mean something impossible, like he'd do it right away. Not likely is it?

So I better paste together all those Episode I notes. I like the idea that Maul has a second agenda while working with the Nemoidians -- but he is there to assist them as well. It is at the request of Sidious that he stays at the Nemoidian's side. If he senses the Vergence of the Force, it will be a coincidence for him just as it is for Qui Gon. But a beat of Maul recognizing the Force in Anakin as he fights Qui Gon at the Queen's ship would be something I'd like to see -- just a beat where Maul gives Anakin a second glance of "Hey, that kid's special. Note to self: keep an eye on this one." Especially if there were a way to make Anakin see Maul and be terrified by him there.

Maul/Gunray will work best if it reminds us of Vader/Tarkin, I think. But as clear as it was that Tarkin out-ranked Vader, it was still clear that Vader's agenda with Obi Wan was personal. So the more we can construct a second agenda for Maul, the better. It will also help us want to see him again as Grievous in Ep III.

I have to agree with InfoDroid that any Sidious in Episode I will spoil what will be a beautiful reveal in Episode II when we see Dukoo talk about Sidious already being in control of the Senate, etc. It will be more exciting to wonder who this guy is who betrayed The Viceroy ten years ago. Who was the other SIth? Then, we finally get to see him after the Clone War begins and he says the chilling lines: Everything is going as planned. That will finally work as a good beat if it becomes THE Sidious reveal instead of a "check in with Sidious." We need good structure for this reveal of Sidious as Dukoo's counterpart-- a better entrance than the simple master shot provided in AOTC. I guess that's something to bring up to TM.

Hardcore Legend --
I haven't been able to see your clip. I know you've done a lot of work on it. What do you think about how that beat might work at the beginning of the duel instead of the end? I'll try to see your clip today.

As a sidenote, I went through ROTJ again last night and see how the ideas we have for the opening will really work. I especially like the Ewok ideas we've talked about because it really is a matter of how that stuff was edited that made them SO FRICKING child-like. I have a request-- I don't want to see a single Stormtrooper get taken out by having a rock/bollo/log fall on his head. The Ewoks' effectiveness should be kept very limited -- they provide the distraction that allows Han and Leia and the other Rebels to get out of a tight jam at the shield generator. Period. They get a few more licks in here and there, but mostly they just run for their lives, get blasted and stomped on. Bravely sacrificing themselves in a hopeless battle that is won by people like Chewie, Han and Leia. With better voices and a few shots of them using blasters, their battle can actually feel good to me. That was a big surprise. (whew!)

What's our title for Episode I?


Post
#161348
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161348/action/topic#161348
Time
Originally posted by: Commander Courage
I'm sure Luke knew the name of his mother just like he knew the name of his father. It would be silly to not tell him/lie to him about those simple facts. It's also very probable Luke was told his father died in the Clone Wars ("he died about the same time as your father") and that his mother died in chidbirth.


Well, it is possible. It is not in the movies and it is just as likely, in my opinion, that Queen Padme Amidala of the Naboo may be just a little too famous a mother for them to be honest about. "I never knew my mother" covers it pretty nicely -- could easily mean I never knew who she was.

I have, at my library, 4 or 5 CD's of "James Earl Jones Reads the Bible." I don't know the Bible that well, but I bet there is plenty of material in there that might make alternate dialogue if someone knew how to create the Vader effect. I believe there are a couple of "mothers" mentioned in the Bible, right?

But "Your mother once thought as you do" isn't really accurate either -- once she found out he was Vader she was pretty much done with him -- so he choked her.

The best and most solid place to address this story-wise is in the ANH duel. I believe the best place will turn out to be at the front of the duel, before they start thier banter. Once Vader says "that name no longer means anything to me," he can go into "You should not have come back old man. When we last met, I was but a learner. Now I am the master." And Ben responds, "Only a master of evil, DARTH." -- responding to Vader's comment by no longer calling him Anakin.



Post
#161327
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161327/action/topic#161327
Time
Commander Courage:

"Padme would still work; are you suggesting Luke never learned the name of his mother? By that logic Luke never learned the name of his father until Obi-Wan said "Anakin was a good friend" in RotJ. "

***

Are you suggesting that Luke knew he was the daughter of the queen of Naboo? No, clearly Luke does NOT know his mother's name anymore than Leia knows her father's name is Anakin Skywalker.

At least that's the best interpretation of what's actually there. For Vader to be able to use "Padme" in a sentence with Luke and expect him to know who "Padme" is, we should see someone tell Luke.

It all seems so much simpler and story enhancing to have Obi Wan reach out to Anakin in ANH during the Duel. It might go better somewhere during the beginning of the duel -- as Obi Wan first sees Vader: "Anakin..." He says in his Jedi mind voice. "That name no longer holds any meaning for me." replies Vader. Bzzaammmm... Obi Wan lights up his Saber and starts talking to "Darth".
Post
#161325
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161325/action/topic#161325
Time
Originally posted by: Commander Courage


-This thread is again a testament to the superiority of ESB.


Ha!

Well, I'm a "Star Wars '77" fan meself.

But as far as the saga goes -- ESB is the keystone.

Before ESB, it was the Adventures of Luke Skywalker-- but once Vader became Anakin, the rest of the Saga crystalized into what we have now... or what we are trying to polish in this thread. So it's little wonder that ESB needs the least work -- it's the culprit who caused all the rest of the damage to the nearly perfect story that stood alone before it. ;-) And it's a beautiful, awesome movie.

I have a side pet project, though, that is not something I expect to see a lot of support for. But it would finally set this saga right for the 7 year old inside me who loved Star Wars just the way it was. I call it:

The "Star Wars Part II" edit.

This would be a sequel to "Star Wars '77." It violates nothing as originally conceived -- Vader is not Luke's father, but a henchman in the Empire. He is close with the Emperor, but he does not hold rank above local governors like Tarkin. Darth Vader killed Luke's father, a Jedi Knight who was the best star pilot in the Galaxy and a good friend. Vader was once a pupil of Obi Wan's before he turned to evil. The Millenium Falcon is a piece of junk with modifications, not "the fastest ship in the fleet." We don't get sidetracked by Jabba. We don't get sidetracked by Bespin. We just tell another adventure.

The structure is remeniscent of "The Godfather Part II." It tells two stories at once -- a story set in the past shows the origin of Vader and his role in the rise of the Empire/death of Anakin Skywalker -- and this is intercut with a second story about Luke's training and the Rebel's fight against a second Death Star.

Basically, the Luke story is the first half of ESB blended into the second half of ROTJ. Think of the Luke stuff as the "Michael Corleone" story and the past story as the "Young Vito/Robert DeNiro" story.

With The Demon Hunter's "Migraine Maker" scene, we'll see Vader kill Anakin. The final shots of ROTS allow us to see Vader watching the construction of Death Star II from the deck of the same ship where he learns the Rebels and Skywalker are hiding on Hoth.

The Rebels escape from Hoth, Luke goes to Degobah and Han takes Leia on the run. But when they charge the bridge of the Star Destroyer in the asteroid field, Han ACTUALLY make the jump to lightspeed and escapes to join the Rebel convoy.

Luke finishes his training, receives his orders from Yoda to "face Vader-r" and he runs off to join the convoy too.

A shortened battle of Endor plays out as Luke surrenders to Vader, to protect his friends. He is taken to the Emperor who temps him toward the dark side. Vader said the "son of Skywalker will join us or die" and the Emperor thinks he can make it happen. Finally, Luke cracks -- gives into his emotions and attacks -- he and Vader really go at it. He defeats Vader, but refuses to kill him-- refusing the Dark Side to finally become a Jedi "like my father before me."

THe Emperor says "Very well," and starts blasting away with the lightening. Vader watches, wounded and glad to see Skywalker dying. This would kill Luke -- But the Excelsior crashes into Death Star II, causing a powerful blast, erupting up the shaft of the Emperor's chamber -- a blast that nearly collapses the tower and topples the Emperor into the shaft. Vader nearly goes too, but he escapes as does Luke -- running for an escape. Lando gets into the heart of the battle station and blasts the core -- speeding out to save his life...

That's when Luke, heading toward his escape in the Shuttle, gets tackled by the wounded, but able Darth Vader. Luke grapples with this giant on the ramp of the shuttle. Luke has to kill him to get into the shuttle.

Barely making it out as the Death Star II explodes, Luke returns to Endor and sees the ghostly images of Obi Wan, Yoda, and the Young SE Anakin (finally a welcome addition).

The "Flashbacks" bookend many sequences. The movie opens with the "birth of Vader" sequence as Sidious finds the melted young Jedi and turns him into Lord Vader. From that we wipe to the Star Destroyer that sends out the probe droids...

Then, when Luke discovers Yoda is really a Jedi Master -- we get the flashback of Obi Wan and Anakin getting into it with Dukoo during the Clone Wars. A little set up will establish that they know Chancellor Palpatine.

Then, after Han and Leia escape the Imperials -- we get a flashback of Sidious enacting "order 66" as Obi Wan and Anakin try to rescue the Chancellor from Dukoo. They run into Vader and Vader kills Anakin (all per "the migmaker") and then we reveal that Palpatine is Sidious as Obi Wan escapes.

From this point of view, there might be just enough material in all these extra movies to make one really honest to goodness sequel. "Star Wars Part II" Baby!

But that's just me. That outlines my ultimate blasphemy to the Saga. Let's never speak of it again (unless you want to;-))

I'm of two minds -- I love the stand alone "Star Wars '77" one way, and "the Star Wars Saga" another. They aren't really the same story, and I always wanted to see more done in the vein of the original. Just straight mythic adventure. No "according to a certain point of view" "there's still good in him, I've felt it" "Leia! Leia's my sister!" stuff.

But this side project aside, this Ranch version of the Saga is the "real" Saga to me.



Post
#161309
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161309/action/topic#161309
Time
InfoDroid --

The Nemoidians are hypnotic. I just keep watching it. Those shots of Amidala listening to them are just radiant - everything I wanted from the Prequels.

Nute sounds so smart, so powerful and confident in this edit. He deserves great dialogue. I will do my best and see what I can do to honor what you've put together.

The story, as I see it, HAS to involve the slave trade as MagFan introduced. That Padme says "I can't believe they still have slaves" can be handled a couple ways -- maybe she's just speaking figuritively, as in "I can't believe people still smoke cigarettes" -- is she expressing her total opposition as opposed to her ignorance? Anyway, worse comes to worse, the line can go because Slave Trading Nemoidians are a must.

So they've got Naboo under their thumb, the Jedi arrive and Nute doesn't care. He blasts their ship and is eager to face them mano-a-mano. His assistant is more cautious and orders blast shields and destroyer droids-- shooing the Jedi into the vent shafts. Nute orders the invasion to begin.

I don't think Qui Gon should refer to these Federation types as cowards. The more respect he shows them, the more we'll feel for them.

I'll have to paste together all the Episode I ideas that came up in the SOTD thread and sift through to create a document to add to the Bible here. I can't decide which new edit I'm most excited about. First it was ANH, then ROTJ and now TPM. What's next?
Post
#161165
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161165/action/topic#161165
Time
InfoDroid

I finally saw your clip -- and I love it. Your cut of the action is much more to my taste than the previously posted version. The mix seems similarly "hot" on music though. I think the comments by Commander Courage are accurate -- the build and release of the music feels rushed, especially as the droids walk and when Han takes off. The moment when Ben dies needs a pause, I think. Some quiet for Luke to shout into. THe original cues from ANH were damn good, I always thought. It's just that for the Saga, most of your music choices are better.

Good work!
Post
#161162
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161162/action/topic#161162
Time
THX -- awesome ideas for the ewoks. I knew I heard that some place.

But the scene where Chewbacca is brought to Jabba is wonderfully easy to change-- Threepio as an interpreter drops out and subtitles (which are mostly already there) fill in. The shots are mercifully few where Threepio is actually part of the action -- most of his shots are actually of him repeating dialogue that can be subtitled.

The scene is much better as a Jabba/Bounty Hunter face off with only Chewbacca as a sympathetic character. It would play as one of the few scenes where he is featured alone. And as a dramatic and doom-filled way of introducing the palace and Jabba, it will serve well.
Post
#161147
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161147/action/topic#161147
Time
Originally posted by: Commander Courage
Maybe I need to be shown the light -- how do you account for the lying, Commander? What good did it do him to lie to Luke? I need to believe something big was gained by Obi Wan being so deceptive before I can be okay with this scene being in Episode IV. It works just fine in Star Wars, the stand alone movie as it was released and designed -- when it WASN'T a lie. But now it's a lie that, as far as I can figure, gets him exactly nowhere and sets Luke up for a terrible fall.

It was in Luke's best interest. He needs to focus on becoming a Jedi, not on his father not really being dead but instead the Emperor's right hand man and exterminator of the Jedi Knights. As Yoda said in RotJ, "Not ready for the burden were you." This is why I think a Yoda/Obi-Wan exchange establishing them keeping their lineage a secret from the children is essential. Of course Obi-Wan seems to not be sure what side to take: Does he ACTUALLY believe in his "truth" that Vader destroyed Anakin? Yoda says as much in RotS: "The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader." Or were he and Yoda just witholding the truth and devised that as a comfortable alternate to tell Luke until the time was right. I can't answer that, but I wish things had been a bit more clear in RotJ (which is why Lucas should release the deleted scenes!).



That's not convincing to me. That's just justifying what is there, not explaining what good comes of it. Telling Luke the truth would be in his best interest because being told that the father you never knew was corrupted by temptation and turned bad does not handicap you. It could easily steel your resolve to not follow in his footsteps. Luke has no indication of an inability to tell good from bad. Only a simpleton needs to be "protected" from unpleasant truths. Yoda says Luke wasn't ready for the burden, but that's just another half-truth added in to justify the lie. The only burden Luke wasn't ready for was THE WAY he discovered the truth -- not the truth itself. He has no particular trouble understanding that evil Vader is his father. In fact, he rightly deduces there is still good in Vader where Obi Wan and Yoda believe there is not. They believe it would be truthful to say "a pupil of mine named Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin Skywalker. The good man who was once your father died, replaced by Lord Vader." Aside from the part where there never was a pupil named Darth Vader, the part where NO ONE murdered Anakin, and the part where Luke can tell there's still an ember of Anakin still glowing inside of Darth Vader -- Obi Wan is being completely truthful. In other words, he bats ZERO with his "truth from a certain point of view" and achieves nothing except to devestate Luke when he goes to Bespin unprepared.

BUT...

I figured out something that would work for me-- and if we can't add it in, then I'll just have to keep it in the back of my mind somehow. It goes like this:

If Obi Wan and Yoda knew that Vader could sense Luke-- could feel him IF Luke knew the truth, then that might be worth keeping the secret. Jedi meditate, and they can reach across the Galaxy and sense things that happen in their feelings. If Luke knew Vader was his father, then Vader could discover Luke and come for him. This fits the timing of events -- for the point at which Obi Wan lies to Luke is a point where he has no plans regarding how to bring Vader down. He's simply watching over Luke and waiting... Leia finds him there, knowing that he's hiding out, sitting out the entire Rebellion so far. He's basically there to make sure Luke doesn't fall the wrong way or get snatched by Vader somehow. At the beginning of their adventure to save the Princess, it may be wise to keep the truth from Luke in case Vader were to sense them and jeopardize their mission. There will be a better time to tell him the truth... but then Ben dies.

I can sort of make that work for me. I wish this reason could have been established in Episode III and in the "log scene."
Post
#161132
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161132/action/topic#161132
Time
So much to comment on -- wowwy wow wow.

-- "Obi Wan once thought as you do" definitely needs to be addressed -- in ANH. THAT is an important and missing beat for the "saga." It's unnatural for Obi Wan to fight Vader and not reach out to Anakin. There are definitely ways to get that dialogue in -- Obi Wan reaches out with his feelings -- "Anakin" (stolen from ROTJ echoed dialogue -- no lip synch problems) and some version of "That name means nothing to me" from Vader. The problem with using "Padme" to address this issue is that it dodges the real issue -- Obi Wan is facing Anakin in ANH, yet he never really addresses Anakin. Further, saying "Padme" to Luke has no meaning. Luke never ever heard Padme's name. It wouldn't work.

--I love "I hae a promise to keep... to an old friend" at the end of ESB. But the training has to be longer and come in ROTJ as CC suggests -- IMHO.

-- If Luke knew Vader was his father, his willingness to fight him in ESB would come from the fact that he believes his father is evil. But he sense more than that as Vader reaches out to him in their duel -- thus, Yoda's instruction to "face Vader" means more than "kill Vader." It means, as Luke divines, challenge Vader to return from the dark side.

-- I wish we could kill Lando/The Falcon. Definitely we must address this issue.

-- As to the Jabba sequence in ROTJ

I agree with the DH that some Han banter must always remain. But they wrote him as a comedian, every line is another joke (usually a lame one). It undermines the tension too much. The "now I see a light blur" line is fine, but "I grew up here/You're gonna die here" is unnatural and unfunny. Han knows Tatooine, Luke knows Han knows. It's just bad exposition -- "Don't forget, I came from Tatooine in Episode IV."

The idea that Han is "changed" by being frozen doesn't wash for me. Why would he be changed? He didn't experience anything while being frozen. It wasn't especially hard on him. He should have come out half-expecting to still be on Bespin. No change required, expected, or helpful to the story. His "change" as such might come when he tells Leia "I love you" on Endor.

I like some of the DH re-shuffle of my outline. I strenuously disagree with CC that the original order of the Jabba sequence flows best. It doesn't flow at all for me. It is so illogical that I can only shake my head at it. But if Chewie and Leia are captured and Han is thrown in with Chewie -- and we drop the reference that Luke is coming to save them -- then it becomes a real down beat, a real place of dramatic tension and a true continuation of ESB. Having all this before the droids walk up to the palace makes their walk much much better because now we know they're walking into real trouble. Of course we'll have to edit their dialogue, but the tension can be real now instead of being generated by the "stories I could tell you about this place."

There is a need for a sense of doom and danger to this sequence. Jabba should really feel scary. As it flows now, he seems like a joke.

I'd want to cut out almost every shot of his cackling little pet, reduce the shots of Green Pig guards by 1/2, eliminate all but one blue-elephant shots, and emphasize Jabba's ruthless and merciless nature.

Then, when Luke marches in -- we really wonder how he's going to pull it off. Then, when he does, we realize it was improvized because he's basically saving his over-eager friends who risked their lives to help Han too soon. They should have waited.

This re-ordering makes the plan better and makes Luke better.
Post
#161112
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161112/action/topic#161112
Time
Trooperman --

I fear you may have tipped your hand too soon on this clip -- what is a great idea may get shouted down by the temp execution. I, for one, love the way the music sets the scene. I think there is a phrase or two that gets too upbeat, but I never realized before how much Laura sounds like a Star Wars piece.

A problem for me is that I know Laura so well that it takes a moment to get used to. You are a music wiz-- I bet you intend to create a piece for this scene that doesn't quite use the full Laura theme? Anyway, that might be a suggestion.

But I believe the romance beat here should be the dominant feeling. The threat of death, the thousands of blood thirsty spectators, the hopelessness of the situation all mean less than "she loves me! We're in love!" The many emotions of this scene should combine to create its complete and bitter-sweet tone -- but romance should and will come first if you have a strong musical theme like this.

It's quite like the Princess Leia confession just as Han is being carbonited. That's a scary scene, but it was the romance of it that most characterised it-- that was its dominant quality. All the good-guy/bad-guy story issues came second.

The music, even as temp as it is in your clip, really makes the arena come to life for me. The spectators and the march to the columns both feel more real-- because our point of view is anchored by the music; we feel it through these lovers. That was missing before.

Good work!
Post
#161040
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161040/action/topic#161040
Time
Oh-- and one more thing-- cut out that band. Trooperman, you can find appropriate big-band sounds, I believe. Something more in line with the Cantina band and the song you added in SOTD's cantina?

THis New Wave sound is awful. I also think that about 1/2 second of seeing that big blue elephant on vibes is all anyone needs to see of him.

And am I the only one who hates those big green pig guards?
Post
#161038
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/161038/action/topic#161038
Time
Trooperman -- if you would do ROTJ, that's great news to me!

I worked on my ideas for editing Jabba's Palace sequence last night and found that the material is there to make something much more sensible and thrilling. There are many jokes that create a tone that makes me cringe. But with CC's strategy, the idea of cutting the jokes as part of a new narrative really worked.

In brief (beause I don't have time now) I have a way to let Leia's plan be in action before Luke arrives-- essentially covering the gap we're creating by having Luke go get training while letting Han just hang around frozen in Jabba's clutches. Then Luke's arrival and "plan" come across as more daring and less blind-frickin'-lucky.

The droids appearance gets moved back, thus keeping the tone darker before their arrival. The whole sequence of Leia arriving as the bounty hunter plays out with subtitles and no Threepio.

So it goes:

Darth Vader arrives at Death Star II
Luke finishes training
The Emperor arrives at Death Star II
Jabba takes delivery of Chewbacca (cut the obvious reveal of Lando -- use his later reveal with Leia)
Leia takes Han out of the carbonite -- caught (cut down the over-the-top humor -- keep a more ESB tone)
The droids walk toward the palace-- hand themselves over to Jabba.
The droids get reassigned (cut the "torture" of other droids -- a truly stupid idea)
Jabba kills his dancer
Luke arrives -- scarrier, faster fighting.
Luke USES THE FORCE to bring door down on monster.
Han and Luke struggle as they're dragged before Jabba (cut the hilarious banter down)
Go to Sarlac (cut the banter down some more -- I don't think we need the "I was born here/You're going to die here" exchange or the "Tell that fat bastard he'll get no such satisfaction from us!" -- that just doesn't sound like Han Solo. Han taking the threat silently sounds more correct to my ears. Cut that in favor of going directly to Luke's threat "This is your last chance!" That should, I suggest, be Luke's FIRST threat if possible since Jabba sentenced him. The others ring very hollow and boistrous).
Cut the fight to be faster.
Can Boba be defeated by a laser blast instead of a stick in the ass?
Let Han helping Lando go faster: "Trust me" BEEOW! Less begging from Lando.

Like that. What do you think?
Post
#160961
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/160961/action/topic#160961
Time
Godda*n, Commander Courage--
That is a fantastic list of changes to ROTJ. I want to work on THAT.

The potential of doing ROTJ next is attractive -- it is like Episode II -- the weakest of its respective trilogy. With SOTD and a new ROTJ, we'd be a hell of a lot closer to a Saga. Trooperman likes MagFan's Episode I and the rest of the OT. ROTS is being tweaked by many already (although only the Trooperman voiced Anakin can fully complete the set). I mean, if we got a Ranch style Episode I done and an ROTJ -- well that would be close to a "Trooperman" approved saga.

I'd still have some major beef with ANH -- but so few other people seem to agree. Even my wife can't see Obi Wan's lying for the cancer that it is.

Maybe I need to be shown the light -- how do you account for the lying, Commander? What good did it do him to lie to Luke? I need to believe something big was gained by Obi Wan being so deceptive before I can be okay with this scene being in Episode IV. It works just fine in Star Wars, the stand alone movie as it was released and designed -- when it WASN'T a lie. But now it's a lie that, as far as I can figure, gets him exactly nowhere and sets Luke up for a terrible fall.

But that issue aside -- I think InfoDroid could do a quicker pass through ANH to add the few ques and tweaks that blend it into Episode III without changing that beat and finish faster. Maybe that's wisest at this point since we all know Trooperman doesn't want to change it. There's still plenty to tweak and construct -- I think it's necessary to get the Emperor at least one scene in ANH (and we do have material we plan to cut from the prequels available to us).

Anyway, I'm excited as hell by those ROTJ ideas.

What if Lando, Leia and Chewie start their effort to free Han before Luke returns. If we could somehow let Luke's return from training be "just in time" to save his friends again, it would add even more justification to that awful plan of theirs. Essentially -- Leia's plan was to get Han, Chewie and Lando out in the middle of night, but she got caught. ...Then Luke arrives. I don't know how to handle the droids off the top of my head, but this idea solves a lot of problems for me.

Mix in all the changes suggested earlier regarding radio dialogue and a make-over to the Ewoks and we may really have something great on our hands.

I'd like to beef up Han's story as well, CC. The main issue is that he is played as a second banana. He doesn't get to be a rogue, really. So he comes off as immasculated somewhat. I'd like to work in more skeptical and recognizable Han material and lose some of the beats that feel "off."

I see major opportunities for making the Death Star destruction better too -- Luke's escape is timed poorly vis-a-vis Lando's. They should be simultaneously escaping the exploding battle station -- Luke gets out too soon. I wonder if we couldn't do with less of Lando's co-pilot as well?

Anyway-- this must be the Bible thread because we are now officially all over the map.