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MTHaslett

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13-Apr-2005
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4-Sep-2024
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Post
#162979
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162979/action/topic#162979
Time
Originally posted by: THX
At the risk of flogging a dead horse...

Indeed-- but I am fascinated by this point personally...

Hopefully, Obi-Wan is not a two-dimensional character. Whether his words to Luke were successful in protecting him or not has nothing to do with whether he would say them or not. At the time of their conversation, Luke had not yet blown up "the fu*king Death Star" and Ben couldn't use that as a judge of what he could or couldn't handle. Most murderers don't have supernatural powers. Even so, wards who are in a position to keep their children in the dark about their parent's wrongdoing often do so. Ben wasn't basing his choice of words on statistical evidence, but on his own feelings, right or wrong.


"Successful in protecting him" from what? Obi Wan is made two dimensional by this explanation. There's nothing but convenience and justification in this explanation. And that's appropriate because Ben's not basing his choice of words on his feelings or on statistical evidence -- his choice of words is based on how the story was conceived WHEN VADER WAS NOT HIS FATHER. ESB changes that and makes us reevaluate what he says and how that scene plays. Now it plays that he has guarded Luke for his whole life and meditated on the Force. He meets Luke after Luke gets a message from Leia. He has a choice then to either treat Luke like an adult or to lie. He lies. He lies and it gains him nothing. And he never explains why he does it. If he's been shadowing Luke all his life, a three-dimensional Obi Wan would have some kind of accurate appraisal of what kind of man Luke is.

Ben felt responsible for Anakin's downfall and didn't want to be responsible for potentially leading Luke the same way. Maybe he was wrong to say what he did, but that doesn't mean it was out of character. After all, he'd been charged with watching over Luke specifically to keep him from Vader. Leia's message and it's consequences forced him to tell Luke more than he originally intended, and in the circumstances he would naturally be reticent to divulge all the secrets he'd been keeping for so many years.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.


What logic is there to this notion that telling Luke the truth will lead him down the dark side of his father? If there were any danger of Luke following his father's footsteps then special care to make sure he adjusts to the truth is the obvious and wise way to bring him up. Some day, presumably, he will have to face Vader. To set him up for a big fall, to set all his training on a bedrock of lies is stupid and foolish. Luke was never going to go to the dark side -- there was no way, until Vader makes his big reveal and shatters all Luke's confidence. Who's fault is that?

Obi Wan is an honorable, wise and heroic Jedi. If he lies to Luke and it gains him nothing, has no reason behind it, and leads him to give mealy mouthed excuses for it later -- it changes his character. It is not out of character for the "wet noodle" Obi Wan of the OT as is. It is out of character for the heroic Obi Wan of Star Wars '77 -- and the PT Obi Wan as well. There's nothing to indicate what you suggest-- he uses Leia's message as an excuse to tell Luke things he has long wanted to tell him, but which Owen prevented. As originally written, he's been itching to tell Luke these things for years -- I don't see how that's been changed. It's just the meaning of what he tells him and how a big piece of it is now a lie that's changed.

What's "natural" about choosing to tell Luke a giant lie? Being uncomfortable about the truth is natural. Telling a giant lie is a concscious choice which a Jedi would only make if it served a greater good. It has to serve a purpose. In the OT as is, it serves only the purpose of setting Luke up for a big fall.

Without a reason, the lie is a convenient bit of nonsense. If a reason were provided, such as I've suggested before, then the lie could be made understandable.
Post
#162959
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162959/action/topic#162959
Time
Fascinating idea, C3PX.

I know we are going to keep the Nemoidians in there for this edit depends on them as the Main Badguys.

But just HOW -- well, I like the possibilities of staying with the Jedi and hadn't thought of it.

I know the invasion is going to happen more swiftly after Gunray talks to Amidala-- I'll be at the drawing board...

Edited: By the way, C3PX-- have you heard the Nemoidian dubs InfoDroid did? That stuff is pitch perfect. Nute Gunray is going to be a badass and he sounds like one now.

Nute is going to be aching to battle the Jedi-- itching for a fight, feeling up for killing two Jedi this morning. It's his underling who prevents this battle from occuring.

So I don't know if we can construct Nute as tough enough if we don't see him-- but maybe if the over the shoulder shots come sooner, building up to a reveal of Nute. It's worth looking at.
Post
#162939
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162939/action/topic#162939
Time
InfoDroid-- Bless you for taking on the heavy lifting. I think I can speak for Commander Courage and say we'd be honored to contribute all we can to create our fantasy "Episode I" edit. The offer to host an online script is really helpful -- we just need to devise a way to get ourselves all onto the same page. If Commander and I are to be the chief architects, then it'd probably be most polite for us to work out the script and then post it scene by scene-ish. Some way for us to break the movie down to digestible chunks so that we communicate completely and quickly about what needs to be done.

So we still need to settle the current issues and agree on an overall outline.

I guess I'll give my say on the Gungans again. It sounds like there are some unspoken attitudes that need to come forth -- e.g. I would have no qualms taking good ideas from MagFan's edit. DarthPreston, you should get the AdMan JarJar dialogue for that cut because it really changes things-- Jar Jar is banished for losing the Gungan's Kaibar Crystal to the Naboo, not just for being clumsy. This change explains why he's outside the city and why it's a risk for him to take the Jedi to the city as well as why the Gungan hate the Naboo and why Amidala has no regard for the Gungan. Having the Jedi meet Boss Nass before they ask him to join the battle has clear value, if this sequence can be shaved down along these lines. This version of Jar Jar with the crystal pays off best in the final image of the film when Amidala gives that crystal back to Boss Nass. Finally, that pointless parade echo of the medal ceremony in Episode IV has some meaning. I don't want to give that up.

I never watched the MagFan JarJar dialogue, so I don't know if these are his ideas or AdMan's. But they work.

I agree the Gungan sequence is too long. I'd like to cut the planet core trip to nothing. Cut out the waterfall. But if we construct the intro of Jar Jar better, then the swim to his city can have a potent feeling of adventure-- it sets up things for later very well.
Post
#162880
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162880/action/topic#162880
Time
Just to pop in and say thanks for getting in the mood to start -- I'm thrilled!

I see that we have one editor -- unless Trooperman wants to volunteer for part of the story too.

I think we've kicked up the dust enough for the whole saga to get an official Episode I that fits-- but without a secret guiding force like Trooperman provides on SOTD, I'm afraid we may have to go through the whole movie by committee.

We should kick it off with an outline that incorporates all the current suggestions. Then we'll add in anything that gets left off/forgotten and debate anything that seems controversial. Then InfoDroid (or TradeFederationThemeHater, as he may now be called :-)) will have to be the final say-so on everything.

Whatever we can do to match SOTD and capture the epic sweep of the OT in music, pace, color, f/x should be spelled out so that InfoDroid can get "up to speed" with whatever techniques he'll need to learn.

...And I guess we're not doing the "LOTR" style montage at the beginning? I kind of vote against it for time reasons if nothing else -- and as such, I think we may need a title for this Episode I other than "Star Wars" to differentiate it from the official Trooperman Episode I that will come later with montage and the title Star Wars.

"Star Wars Episode I -- Fate of the Jedi"

Or...
Post
#162828
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162828/action/topic#162828
Time
InfoDroid -- you'll have to start by telling me the reasons you hate that so much because you're blowing my mind!

I hate the Jar Jar antics in the battle, but the "War and Peace" epic sweep of it and the shot of the Gungans coming out of the mist and facing that giant droid army are some of my favorite things in the movie. That's the kind of "new world" thing I want out of each Star Wars movie. ANH had deserts and death stars, ESB had ice, swamps, and cloud city, ROTJ had Jabba's palace and the forest moon -- but TPM had no battles at all EXCEPT the Gungan battle. (Lucky for me, I thought it was awesome).

The strategy for fixing it, imo, comes down to eliminating Jar Jar and making it just a massacre. There's no reason to give the Gungans a moment of victory since the victory comes completely from Anakin. The Gungan's succeed as soon as they draw the Trade Federation attention away from the palace, so the best thing is to let the droids be awesome and devestating in every way. I think if we can do it right, it will feel like the Gungans are getting butchered out there. That's what I'd like.

Ideas?
Post
#162823
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162823/action/topic#162823
Time
Originally posted by: darthpreston
Whew, this is getting intense. On a different note, I am going through MagFan's Balance of the Force and jotting down ideas that could be used for this future edit.

Just for the start of the movie:
-Slow down the shot of the ship landing and the doids turning around. Adding to it some real neat "sweeping" star wars like music would be a neat way to open up this space opera saga. I just thinking it would look better marveling at the ship docking the trade fed. ship with nice music.

-redoing the lightsabre effect sounds will go a long way as well. They sound too quite in the PT as opposed to the CT where they have unique start up ignigitions and hums. I would try slowing down the shot of the them igniting their sabres from the gas filled room. Maybe treat it like it's a tense moment "are they alive?" then one, then the other lightsaber come on.

-I have an idea of replacing the trade federation music with Xizor's theme from the Shadow's of the Empire soundtrack. It is an amazing piece and would work for a better "feel" of the trade federation. I know that the original music isn't that bad, however we've heard it all over all three of the original prequels and if we replace it , it would help bring a new look and sound to the scenes. If you have the soundtrack , give it a listen and tell me what you think.

-I would suggest cutting out the ENTIRE underwater sequence. It has no point to it all other than some random action. I would suggest having jar jar mention to them a city of humans on the side of the forest..... then qui-gon says "A city? Can you take us there"....Jar Jar in his excitement sayd "Sure, I know a secret route, this way!"...............Then bam, they end up at Theed. For gods sakes we need to make jar jar a helpful character, one that they seriously owe some debt to.

-While the jedi are ready to pounce on the "extermination droids" while they are marching through the city: If we could have qui-gon say a line similar to "they'll all be killed, let's go" while his back is turned, this might add some more tensity to the situation the queens group getting blasted to death. I was also thinking of having jar jar warn obi won or qui gon during a battle to "watch out behind you" and have them strike a battle droid. This again, will show how jar jar is helping the best he can in this situation.

Comments? suggestions?


I love these ideas -- except the underwater sequence has to stay, imo. The BOTF reworking of the Gungan story is a real improvement and the site of the Gungan city is very cool. I don't think we get SMOOTHER by cutting the city, just SHORTER. The smoothest story will allow Qui Gonn (and the audience) to size up the Gungans before we call on them to fight the war in the end.

But the other ideas seem great to me.
Post
#162819
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162819/action/topic#162819
Time
CC/ID -- regarding cg Yoda, I remember that we thought we could get our ideas together for a release next May. Now, that's a short window, but it would be nice. I think a SE edition in 2007 will be a natural because we'll see better ways to accomplish our ideas and fixes for things that don't come off as well as we plan. I think the idea of making these PT movies match the style of the OT movies will be something that gets better and better with several passes.

But if we're to get an Episode I out by May, we need to get our ideas up and running now, so we need decisions:

What's at issue right now?

Dubbing Jar Jar or subtitles; Dubbing Nemoidians or subtitles; Adding Dukoo or not; many other things, I'm sure.

I vote for the sake of speed that we go the BOTF route with the aliens. I actually prefer reading Jar Jar to hearing him talk, no matter what accent he has because his performance is SOOO cartoony that the subtitles take the edge off. I have a lot of specific ideas for improving his presence through different edits -- using the Full Screen transfer as often as possible to create shots where he gets marginalized or even cut off more. Part of the problem with him is that he is always "featured;" he's always framed a little too well and not treated as part of the scenery enough (even though they tried). I find the alien voice he has in BOTF makes him more interesting -- he understands English, he requires the viewer to read, he gets to say whatever we want regardless of his lip flap (which will get annoying if we make him speak English versions of the AdMan dialogue).

I also LOVE LOVE LOVE the "Passion" dialogue for the Nemoidians.

I love the ideas for putting Dukoo into Ep I, but I don't see how to accomplish it seamlessly yet. I have to review the material unless someone else comes up with the perfect plan.

I have a 10 page document of hte other EP I stuff we discussed over in the SOTD thread. I'll try to edit it down and post it soon so we can have a kind of master list to work from.

Then we need to see who's going to do the actual editing (InfoDroid and...?) and get to work.

Then, I suppose, we should start a thread for just Episode I and leave this thread alive as the "all episode" bible.

I'll be glad when Trooperman gets back to the boards more often too because he's a good voice to hear in these discussions.

But are you two ready to start nailing things down, CC and ID?
Post
#162770
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162770/action/topic#162770
Time
Originally posted by: InfoDroid

If you say the spine of the story is Qui-Gon and the Council, and Dooku supposedly turned against the Jedi Order and went searching for Sidious because of what happened to Qui-Gon, then why can't we incorporate some of that into Episode I?

You don't have to get in depth and derail the whole movie, but at least establish some sort of relationship between Qui-Gon, Dooku and the Council.

What if, for instance, Qui-Gon was talking to Dooku on his little Jedi communicator about the "vergence" he has encountered? Dooku might advise him to bring him before the council.

And I'd love, love, love to construct a scene for the end between Dooku, Yoda and Mace where Dooku expresses his anger at the Council about what has happened to Qui-Gon and vows to track down the Sith master behind all of this. I just think this would lead us into the situation in Episode II rather nicely.


I get it now. That's really ambitious. I'd like it all to fit in the movie as if that were the end of things -- kind of like Vader escaping in ANH. Vader escapes, but there's no indication of where he's going or what revenge he will plan. There never needed to be a sequel -- but the sequel was so good that you're glad there is one. That would be the ideal relationship between Episode I and Episode II -- Ep I should feel complete until you see Ep II and realize how much there is left to explore.

If we believe Dukoo will find and deal with the Sith and that he's good enough to not need any help, that would be frickin' perfect. Like "now the big dogs are on it." The Council has awakened.

That's a great end to shoot for. I get it now.
Post
#162769
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162769/action/topic#162769
Time
C3PX:
"...Comon, these things are contrary to everything you have ever known your entire life, maybe you had some idea that your uncle wasn't quite telling you everything. It is clear that Obi-Wan was trying to protect Luke. Also you can see from Episode III that the whole thing was prettty rough on Obi-Wan emotionaly. He has had plenty of years living alone in the dessert to reflect on the tragic turning of the man who was like a brother to him. You don't even need the line of Yoda telling Obi not to let the children know of their true parentage. It just isn't needed. Probably Obi-Wan has consoled himself through the years saying that Anakin died the moment he turned to the dark side. It isn't that Obi is merely lying through his teeth. Also at this point Obi-Wan believes that Luke is still unkown to Vader. "

***

Opinions will vary, but it comes down to how "honorable" you think it is to lie.

Look at it this way: Lying is dishonorable and only justifiable if there's some greater good to be served.

Lying to Luke served what greater good? Did it prepare him to face Vader? No, it opened up a great opportunity for Vader to undermine everything Obi Wan and Yoda taught him. Did it protect Luke? Protect him from what? He is not a retard or a psychologically imbalanced infant -- he sees his uncle and aunt, the only parents he's ever known murdered and that only inspires him to do the right thing.

Any presumption that Luke can't "handle the truth" flies in the face of everything Luke Skywalker does. The guy blows up the fu*king Death Star, I think he can handle an unpleasant truth about his father. Plenty of murderers have children. Those kids know about their parent's past and if they have good guidance and strong character (as Luke Skywalker CLEARLY HAS, Ben is a Jedi Knight afterall) -- they often turn out to be steeled in their resolve to avoid the mistakes of their parents. There is no statistical evidence that killers will have evil children who fall to the dark side. It's nonsense to say Luke is being "protected."


What is protected is the "secret" which was revealed in 1980 -- a secret that was NOT PART OF THE STORY when the first movie was made. Vader became Anakin Skywalker in Draft 3 of ESB. They played fast and loose with Ben's story and let a lie stand and explained it later as "the truth from a certain point of view."

But they never explain why the lie needed to happen -- they only JUSTIFY the lie in retrospect. Why? Because the lie did NOT need to happen. It WASN'T a lie until Vader was changed to become Anakin.

This may sit fine with you, but it tinges everything Obi Wan does in the OT because he is pointlessly dishonest with Luke, sets him up for a horrible fall, and never gets around to giving a decent reason why he did it.


But that's not the official view of this thread, of course. It looks like the lie will stay. I will agitate for a line that lets Yoda explain the necessity of the lie ahead of time in Episode III like "Know the truth, they cannot. Like a beacon, their emotions would be. Find them, the Sith will if told they are." THEN Obi Wan will actually be protecting Luke from something -- but without that reason, it's just convenient for the story to make Ben a liar -- and that's the only way to put it. He LIES. It gains him NOTHING. And he NEVER EXPLAINS WHY.

SORRY for all the CAPS -- I find that people never address these issues in trying to justify their affection for the lie as it is.
Post
#162752
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162752/action/topic#162752
Time
I could see it, so maybe you updated the clip --

Anyway, I LIKES.

The new shot of the worms is much appreciated and the cues are great for building up real suspense there.

I think I have a couple knit-picks, if you want to entertain them (ignore if not)

1. I'd like the worm shots to reverse -- so the order goes from bad to worse -- the moving worms on Padme's arms are not biting, so I'd show them first, THEN cut to the biting worm.

2. I think there are three beats that take too long -- 1. Anakin crossing the room, I'd cut on movement so he only spins his blade once to get from the door to the worms. Currently it spins twice before he's there. 2. I'd cut the "smoking" worm carcass shot so we don't hold on that so long and get Padme to wake up quicker. She takes too long now and it bothers me (maybe no one else, but me). 3. Obi Wan takes too many steps before going out the window -- he should see the droid, take one step and LEAP!! That'll shorten the shot of Anakin with Obi Wan in the background.

I think these snips will make the sequence keep the great sense of suspense and danger you've managed. I hope they help. I love seeing your work!

Edited to add: I'm a f*ckin' idiot -- I didn't even get the point of the post -- that's RAIDERS? It's perfect! Great job!
Post
#162683
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162683/action/topic#162683
Time
Originally posted by: InfoDroid
This thread is on fire! I love it!



Me too. It's actually going a little TOO fast, we need to recap and isolate the ideas we've generated for each Episode into separate lists.


I really think if we're focusing on the Qui-Gon aspect of the story (which I think is a good idea) then we need to include something (at least one scene) with his mentor Dooku. But, I think it's important to first see Dooku in a good context, as a good Jedi - which will make his turn in Episode II all the more of a betrayal. There has to be some way to do it. Has to be.

More later.

--InfoDroid


But Dukoo has so little to do with the story of Qui Gonn in Episode I. Can you see a way to fit him in that doesn't slow down the story? Putting him the council with no lines or something and then taking out the reference that he and Obi Wan have "never met?" If we have to do a cul-de-sac scene to get Dukoo into Episode I, it will undermine the "story building" work that making this Qui Gonn's story is supposed to accomplish. Ironic, I know. What are we trying to do with Dukoo?
Post
#162600
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162600/action/topic#162600
Time
Commander Courage: Sounds great to me. Qui-Gon is my favorite character, so I'm all for that. Allow me to reiterate in "The Chronicles of Narnia," there is some great Neeson dialogue that is ripe for Star Wars fan edit usage. When you see the film you'll know what I mean.

Tying together the Qui-Gon focus and a possible Anakin dream, it has become obvious to me what Anakin's dream should be about. In Episode II he has a dream early in the film about his mother dying. She dies. In Episode III he has a dream early in the film about Padme dying. She dies. I'm sure you can follow my logic from here. For now this isn't too specific, so if any of you like the idea of Anakin dreaming of Qui-Gon's death and and want to run with it, feel free to do so. Idealy it would end with Padme somehow to transition into her waking him up.

Darthpreston's character of Jar-Jar seems like a reasonable way to go. The Han Solo-esque Binks of "Balance of the Force" is always an option as well. Any definite thoughts n this? We're going to have to pin him down at some point. For the record I'm all for an alien language with subtitles.

***

Thanks! Glad the Qui Gonn story seems to be getting approval. It's the most of what's there imho and I venture to guess it's closest to what we all wanted.

I like the idea of a dream now -- I wonder if another direction might be to go very surreal with the dream so that it's not clear what it means at first -- but (and this has to be a delicate balance of eidting and artistry) the dream is a foreshadow of his becoming Vader. Somehow it isn't clear until Episode III what the dream was referring to -- maybe volcanic imagery, weird shots from the rehab clinic... I don't know. The Qui Gonn idea has a lot of logic to it. Will it pick up the drama in Episode I? Maybe so...

Last, I agree that Jar Jar needs work, but I really liked him in BOTF. If it ain't broken..?
Post
#162592
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162592/action/topic#162592
Time
Originally posted by: Commander Courage
When I originally thought of Grievous being Maul, such a scene did not seem necessary to me. A few hints and a brief explanation through Grievous dialogue would do fine, and I still feel that way. After all, in this version of the saga we aren't going to see the complete Anakin=Vader transformation, are we? Even so it would seem rather repetitve to see the same process twice. The last scene has potential, as Dooku and Sidious really need some more dialogue between them to explain just what the heck is going on. Christopher Lee sound clips seem to be in abundance, but what about Ian McDiarmid? Anyone have any ideas for possible sources for alternater Palpatine dialogue?


I don't know what the current plan is for seeing Anakin's transformation -- I vote we keep it because in this Saga it's always Anakin's story that counts and that is about the most powerful material in Anakin's story. Aside from the staging of his "NOOO!", that scene where Sidious tells his new best friend a horrible and corrupting lie is a wonderful portrait of evil. "by the way, you killed your true love. Don't let it get you down."

I'd miss everything but the "Nooo!" if we cut it out. That's the climax of the first three movies.

That said, whatever way we go I believe the Maul=Grievous story needs the transformation scene for a couple reasons -- first, it's a hell of a lot of off-screen action to cover in a couple lines of dialogue-- Maul is recovered in pieces, turned into a robot, and brought back onto the scene about 13 years later? Without the "rebuilding scene" it's almost like this stuff must happen all the time.

Second, I think the skeptics of this idea will be able to say we took the easy way out if we don't do this scene. The strength of this idea is that it adds depth to something shallow. But if we make the viewer work too hard to understand it, or if they feel it should have been done better, then I don't think we're going to achieve what we want.

But I, of course, bow to the decisions of the actual editors on all these things. My powers are not yet great enough to force my changes upon you...

Post
#162591
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162591/action/topic#162591
Time
Originally posted by: DaystromX
I agree that if Grevious=Maul, we'll need a "Reconstruction" scene at some point. It has to be in AotC, because you're trying to avoid loose ends from TPM, and Grevious is already running around in RotS. It would also need to be at the end, otherwise you'd expect Grevious to appear at some point in AotC. Here's my idea on how it can go down. It requires some dialogue that I don't know exists, but is fairly general.

***

For the reveal, could you put it at the moment Grevious escapes from the ship, near the begining? Replace "You lose, General Kenobi" (or whatever he says) with "I've waited thirteen years for this, General Kenobi." You'd still need some reaction from Obi-Wan, but the specific situation means the reaction can be more subdued, and possibly even wait until the next time someone mentions Grevious in a conversation with Obi-Wan.

I'm not sure either of these would work, but they're my thoughts on how you might be able to do Maul=Grevious.


THAT is an idea. That is clearly the most seamless place to add the material for Maul=Grievous.

Further, if Sidious is not in Episode I, then work has to be done to make his ENTRANCE worthy -- and this scene is his entrance.

Footage that builds up his first on screen appearance needs to be picked -- stuff that fits at the beginning of the scene as Dukoo flies in.

But letting Sidious blow our minds with not only his behind-the-scenes role that was felt but never seen in Episode I, and with his "everything's going according to plan" attitude to the war, and then with THIS: "I'm making a monster out of my old apprentice. I hope you like him..." It is great foreshadowing of what he will do to Anakin.

I really like this. I mean these ideas (I like them all).
Post
#162560
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162560/action/topic#162560
Time
AT it's core (and I'm not sure we've achieved this yet) I believe the point of making Maul=Grievous is to add depth to and strip away confusion about who Greivous is and why Maul disappeared so quickly.

There is a feeling among some that Maul died to quickly and easily. There is also a common opinion that Grievous in the movies (apart from his very different portrayal in those CW cartoons) came out of nowhere.

Further, niether of them get any kind of depth. But if Maul = Grievous, all these problems are solved.


I don't think it can work without a "reconstructing Grievous" scene, however.

I hope someone can set me right. Commander?
Post
#162540
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162540/action/topic#162540
Time
Darthpreston: This could make the viewer sympathize with the creature, as this is suppose to be the FIRST introduction to the star wars unvierse....the audience WILL be jar jar: wanting to go through the adventure , not knowing what the universe looks like, not knowing all the details of the plot. Although I am wondering what trooperman is doing with jar jar for his ep.2 edit. Just a though.

***

I don't think the audience is Jar Jar -- he' s not really the main character and he's even less available for that role in the MagFan edits.

I like your suggestions, but I also like the MagFan solutions. I vote for alien voices and for a total overhaul of the final battle where only the scary and cool shots are kept and the goofy/funny ones are dropped. With the Amidala plan being overhauled, there's less reason to allow any of it to succeed. I think the Jar Jar beats on Naboo are there to cover the lack of anything strong happening between Anakin/Qui Gonn.

Qui Gonn is the Main Character and it's his p.o.v. that we take as an audience -- feeling his interest in Anakin, feeling his frustration with Jar Jar, etc. It's his story and that's something Lucas didn't bother to follow through on.

This edit will be the first, as far as I know, to try to take advantage of this problem and turn it into an opportunity.

Episode I is the story of Qui Gonn.
Post
#162537
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162537/action/topic#162537
Time
My thoughts on the emotional spine of Episode I are coming into focus.

This is the story of Qui Gonn searching for a way to shake up and wake up the Jedi Council.

He begins the story running a stupid errand for the Council -- but he knows in his heart that the council has grown too beuraucratic and blind. He knows a tough time lies ahead for them, although it isn't quite clear what the threat is. He has been a thorn in the council's side for a while, not entirely sure what he's waiting for. This errand would seem unrelated to his feelings -- but it turns out to be the call of Destiny...

The errand turns into something of an adventure -- he ends up hiding out on Tatooine when he comes across a strange boy. The boy offers to pod-race to save Qui Gonn -- and Qui Gonn's interest is piqued. He goes for it (but he does NOT declare to Shmi that the boy is a potential Jedi. We'll use some of this scene later, but not where it is). Qui Gonn has more than one reason to let the pod-race happen: one is to get the parts from Watto, but the other is to see the boy in Action -- it's during the race that we insert close-ups to show how Qui Gonn is feeling more and more convinced: this boy could be the godda*ned CHOSEN ONE! It's only then that his faith in the boy is made certain. Until then, he's more "wait and see" (which would be set perfect if we could somehow move his "purchase" of the boy until during the race or after -- maybe we don't know he bargained for the boy until he goes to collect after the race?)

Anyway, he gets the boy free and tells the mom (this is where we use some of the "Your son is special" exterior scene from earlier -- it extends the pitifully short farewell material that's there now). They run from Tatooine to Coruscant and meet the council. But the blind council ignores all Qui Gonn's ideas and sends him back to Naboo (as suggested up thread -- this happens BEFORE Amidala makes the same decision and comes more from the Council's ignorance and spite than concern for Amidala).

Preparing for the battle of Naboo, Qui Gonn feels stifled -- the Queen's plan is too optimistic and stands little chance. He feels he must do as ordered, but that this is probably where he will die and the Chosen One will go lost --

Then Anakin goes into battle. Qui Gonn hadn't asked for this, but he senses it. He uses the force to reach out and help Anakin into the scary battle... they share a connection that allows him to fight (in a way) on two fronts at the same time...

But then he gets KILLED. Anakin feels it. Qui Gonn tries to stay in control of Anakin, but Anakin makes a bold move on his own and shoots the ship from the inside! But it works! Anakin flies out.

Obi Wan kills Maul/Grievous, then hears Qui Gonn tell him "the boy is the chosen one." Then cut to Anakin flying home with a final farewell kind of tone-poem in his head as Qui Gon passes. Anakin looks very hurt.

Yoda admits that Qui Gonn has convinced them to train the boy and the movie ends with Anakin's p.o.v. emphasised at every opportunity.

I don't know if we need Anakin's dream or not. But this "Qui Gonn finds and trains Anakin" story is the heart of the movie and everything else has to be peeled back and carved out of the way to allow this to happen.

The "mind" of the movie is still the "Nute Gunray tries to conquer Queen Amidala" story. These two threads combined will give the movie one complete STORY as opposed to the mish-mash that's there now.

Can the "council" consider and comment? I think we need this kind of "spine" settled to help us make other decisions and to know where we're headed.
Post
#162519
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162519/action/topic#162519
Time
Random thoughts:

A way to improve the intro of JarJar occured to me:

Qui Gonn is seen running from the droid transports when suddenly, there's a Gungan in the way. "Get out of the way!" he yells ineffectually and they comically "trip" over each other.

That does two things wrong: first off, it lets Jar Jar into the movie (a mistake we cannot correct) AND it makes Qui Gonn look dumb. Why doesn't he Force push that goofball out of the way or do something cool like that?

What we can do is cut out the shot of Liam Neeson gesturing ineffectually and whining "out of the way! I'm a Jedi running for my miserable life and you're in my way!"

More heroic would be to have Qui Gonn simply running -- seeing Jar Jar in the way, too terrified to run -- and tackling Jar Jar as a way of saving Jar Jar's life. He tackles Jar Jar on purpose, (as Jedi should do everything). He sees the way to save the poor CGI creature and does what he must. No flailing and whining.

This straightens out this odd beat and strengthens the sense of debt that Jar Jar feels for Qui Gonn.
Post
#162513
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162513/action/topic#162513
Time
5. I don't know about the dream for Anakin. It sounds good at first, but now I'm thinking it might take away from the surprise value of the one in Episode II. Is there any info the audience has to gain through a dream from the 9-year old Anakin?

***

I understand this concern, TM. I agree that the dreams in Episode II have to have impact -- but I don't think that can actually be taken away. The SOTD dreams do the impossible job of letting us into Hayden Christiansen's character/performance because they tell us why he's so antsy and abrasive. No matter what happens in Episode I, those dreams in SOTD are essential. Without them, well, you get AOTC -- in other words you get locked out of Anakin, wondering why he's such a jerk.

I wonder if a dream in Episode I can do the same thing for us regarding a second bad performance. It's hard to understand this boy Anakin -- but a dream would help.

In that light, I have to lean TOWARD including a dream -- with the understanding that it should probably be brief and pale in comparison to what we get in Episode II. That way, the more grown up Anakin's dreams can still have special impact.

One positive thing about this is that the "dreams" could become part of the continuity of the character. They can be one thing that makes us feel that Hayden Christiansen is indeed a grown up Jake Lloyd.

It will come down to what the dream is and how essential it feels to the story of Episode I. If it can do the job of setting up Anakin for the important change he goes through in the climax, then it will be essential. If not, then it's much more expendable.

Post
#162512
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162512/action/topic#162512
Time
I don't understand the "Dukoo replaces Sidious" idea. What is Dukoo doing? Everything that Sidious WAS doing? (i.e. bossing the Nemoidians around?)

If that's the case, then it is just swapping one giant problem for another. The problem with Episode I is that it drags on and on, doesn't have a solid story, doesn't answer most of the questions it sets up, and works better as "Episode IV" (which is what it really was) than "Episode I".

The SIMPLER we make it, the better.

No Sidious

That's the idea that made me realize Episode I could be saved. No Sidious makes Nute Gunray the "Governor Tarkin" of Episode I. He has a goal -- conquer Amidala. He pursues it and the Jedi oppose him. Their efforts take them through Tatooine, over to Coruscant and back to Naboo. All they want to do is defeat the Trade Federation -- and they hit a lot of opposition, from a droid army, a sith Lord, a beuraucratic senate, a disapproving Jedi council, even an angry bunch of Gungans. But keeping the goal of the story clearly locked between Nute and Amidala gives this movie the potential to have a STORY.

Adding Sidious, Dukoo, General Jar Jar, an unrelated Anakin subplot that never reconnects, a "hunt down the Vergence" agenda, or anything else that cannot be sewn up by the end of this movie will leave us right where GL was -- with mushy structure that does not hold up on repeated viewings.

But if we keep the plot located around the Nute/Amidala conflict, and keep the emotion located around the Qui Gonn/Anakin relationship -- and give both conclusive pay-offs -- then we'll actually have a story.

So I'm agin anything complicated. Dukoo could indeed use some set-up, but TM is handling that over in SOTD and I'm for sacrificing Dukoo material in the interest of better structure in Episode I.
Post
#162350
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162350/action/topic#162350
Time
Great Post DaystromX

I like those ideas.

I had ideas for restructuring the entire Coruscant sequence. This fits in well. There is too much ping-pong between Senate business and Jedi business in the courant sequence. It makes the action drag even more during an already slow sequence.

Your ideas add more tension and character to these sequences. Good work!
Post
#162347
Topic
The legendary "Starkiller Ranch" Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/162347/action/topic#162347
Time
This might work as long as we get an indication before Maul goes to Tatooine that Nute has an ace up his sleeve. "Oh no!" says the flunky "Amidala's escaped!"

"No. She is never beyond my grasp."

"But if she should reach the Senate..."

"She will never see the Senate again."

But if Maul just shows up on Tatooine, then the additional sub-plot will only weaken the already weak storyline.

Then we've got a runaway queen headed to god knows where who sends her handmaiden into town to "learn about the culture" as her people die, then they discover a slave boy who likes to "pod-race" (whatever that is), and they decide to pod-race to get the parts they need, then they realize the boy's a "vergence", and then some guy in black starts looking for them and by that time it's like, "where is this going and who the hell were those Trade Federation guys that were in this movie when it started?"

The best thing about Maul on Tatooine is that he can energize this slow, unrelated side-trip by representing the antagonists of the main story. If we don't know why he's there, then that's just one more thing we don't understand. The movie needs MORE structure, not less. Making him the outreaching claw of Gunray, threatening our heroes as they desperately try to get their ship going. That tension is what's sadly missing. We need ways to extend the impact Maul has throughout the Tatooine sequence -- ways to show those probe droids searching and just missing our heroes as they prepare for the race.

Obscuring the nature of Maul's threat does nothing to help that I can see. But maybe having him be the surprising method Gunray has for chasing Amidala down -- the fulfillment of a threat -- is an improvement.


If we just cut Maul from Tatooine altogether, then the Tatooine stuff becomes a complete side-show which we might as well cut altogether -- just have them swing by and pick up Anakin in a couple of brief scenes. Watoo sells them parts, and a slave. No pod-race and they get back on the road.

WIthout Maul, the Tatooine story has NOTHING to do with the main story.