Hardcore Legend

Jay said:

canofhumdingers said:

I enjoyed Tarkin in Rogue 1, but then I’m one of those crazies who really loves R1. It’s my third favorite Star Wars movie behind Star Wars and ESB.

I don’t think you’re crazy. I’d probably put ROTJ above R1 myself, but I’d still take R1 over anything else we’ve gotten in the last 20 years.

I really like Rogue One and would probably love it if they had just structured it like a traditional saga film. The time jumps, planet hopping and lack of crawl take me out of the film early on every time. I will usually just skip ahead when I rewatch it.

It’s a very good Star Wars film that could be Top 3 with better editing.

I just rewatched Rogue One tonight and notice the CGI less and less each time.

I’m glad they went this route.

SilverWook said:

Why does Rey have a memory of crying watching a ship leave Jakku when she was little? Either the next film ignores this completely or there’s more to tell about her family.

Clinging to the hope someone is coming back to get you after so many years is desperation. Clinging to that hope when you know for certain that someone is actually dead is delusional. I don’t think Rey was delusional.

I still believe she goes back to Jakku in epX, finds out Leia/Han hid her there after Ben turned. That’s why Ben asked “what girl”. Maz helped them hide her there, which is why she is intrigued by her. Kylo has been lying to Rey because he knew she would never join her if she knew he murdered their father in front of her.

Or, she’s nobody and this is the end of the Star Wars saga. As Kennedy said, the main saga has been and always will be the story of the Skywalker family. If Rey isn’t a Skywalker, there is no plausible redemption for Ben that continues the line.

This film will be good. It will feature Chewbacca. It will feature the Falcon. It will feature the Empire. It will have Jabba in it. It has Ron Howard, Kasdan and Williams involved.

It has a lot of ‘Star Wars’ things in it with a lot of people who understand what Star Wars is making it.

It will be good.

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

Oh hey a video review. Hard pass.

dahmaged if you can understand Phasma and bits 'o Finn complaints, I think you have to add BB-8 in there as well. Specifically, the walker sequence.

Why though? Chewie once hijacked a walker. Droids can’t?

Well, Chewie is an experienced pilot that uses his arms everyday. BB-8 is a droid that seemingly relies on a his data port or whatever to jack in to transportation vessels to operate them. It is a stretch.

Isn’t that what he does though? Or are you saying that’s hard to believe (but that’s what droids do)?

If I recall, he uses his little arm thingys to pull on the various levers to make the walker move.

TV’s Frink said:

ElectroDroid said:

Interesting fact:

The DJ character was going to be played by Lando Calrissian

Interesting fact #2:

Lando is not actually a real person. :p

I think you have it confused. He is a person, not a system.

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

Oh hey a video review. Hard pass.

dahmaged if you can understand Phasma and bits 'o Finn complaints, I think you have to add BB-8 in there as well. Specifically, the walker sequence.

Why though? Chewie once hijacked a walker. Droids can’t?

Well, Chewie is an experienced pilot that uses his arms everyday. BB-8 is a droid that seemingly relies on a his data port or whatever to jack in to transportation vessels to operate them. It is a stretch.

I could see how someone thinks it is ridiculous looking.

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.
I don’t know what Yoda’s story is, but Obi Wan was not just hiding. He was protecting the last hope the Jedi had. The son of Anakin Skywalker.

Please explain the ‘dark place’ scene to me. I’ve only seen the film once and forgot about it until now.

What was the point of it? When Luke went in there in ESB, he learned that the ‘thing’ he took with him in the Cave was fear and anger. So, what he got was Darth Vader and that fear and anger would turn him into what he tried to destroy. What lesson was Rey learning from seeing herself in infinity?

TV’s Frink said:

I might be wrong but I think if the execution of that scene was a little different (better?) people might not have complained so much, even though the complaints seem to be about the idea rather than the execution.

This is true. Leia saving herself using the Force makes sense. It just looks ridiculous that she floats her rigid body back in looking like a high school production of Peter Pan.

Collipso said:

If JJ decides to contradict Rian in everything the ST is going to be the messiest trilogy of all time, with TLJ contradicting TFA and IX contradicting TLJ.

I guess the twist this time around could be that unlike Vader, who told the truth, Kylo/Luke lied to Rey and she actually is Ben’s sister. That’s the reason Maz recognizes her eyes, why Kylo asks ‘what girl?’, why Luke says he’s only ever seen that raw power in one other force user, etc. Kylo lies to her bc he knows that if she knew he killed HER father, she’d never join him.

Contradicting TLJ in that way wouldn’t just be a simple flip-flop. It could be part of explaining some unexplained plot points.

CarboniteSolo said:

Hardcore Legend said:

I’d like to see the film we thought we might get with the ST, a story about Luke set 10 years before the start of TFA. Luke uncovers a group of villains from the unknown regions of space. He (with the help of his young apprentice, Chewbacca and R2D2 in the 3rd act) are able to defeat the well armed group but something begins to change in his apprentice.

Or something involving Luke (played by Mark) set sometime between the OT and ST.

I second this, I would love to see something set before the Force Awakens, with his green Jedi lightsaber tearing s*** up. The end of the movie could be him flying in his X-wing to Ach-to, climbing the Jedi steps and at the top he’s looking out into horizon waiting for Rey (Iris out)

Mark Hamill should do this.

I feel like this is a film you could just print money from. All the nostalgia. All the focus on the OT fan favorites but in a new story. You could even use it to give Snoke a back story.

I’d like to see the film we thought we might get with the ST, a story about Luke set 10 years before the start of TFA. Luke uncovers a group of villains from the unknown regions of space. He (with the help of his young apprentice, Chewbacca and R2D2 in the 3rd act) are able to defeat the well armed group but something begins to change in his apprentice.

Or something involving Luke (played by Mark) set sometime between the OT and ST.

The extra bunk was added so Ben had somewhere to sleep. It was by the door and drafty, thus his longstanding resentment of his father.

Dat_SW_Guy said:

A little nice tidbit I found while browsing online is that Rian Johnson missed a detail to Luke’s death during the filming of TLJ. When Luke “became one with the force”, his robotic hand would “clunk” to the ground, and apparently he missed that. So when Luke comes back as a force ghost, he might have one hand missing. Just a little thing I wan’t to share.
Anakin (in any version) isn’t missing most of his body.

Shopping Maul said:

Hardcore Legend said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Rescued a princess, helped deliver the DS plans to the rebels. He did blow up the first Death Star. Got a medal for it too. If he never did another thing after that, he would be a legend.

The shield generator mission might have not succeeded without Han being there, or Luke making the Ewoks into allies.

I’m sure 30 years on, the stories about Luke have been retold over and over to the point that they only bear passing resemblance to what actually happened.

Yeah, but I’m talking specifically about ROTJ’s climax. The whole build-up throughout the OT was about Luke being the last hope, the only hope, not abandoning his training, not giving in to the quick and easy path etc etc etc. “Only a fully trained Jedi Knight will conquer Vader and his Emperor”. Even Lucas said that Luke’s actions on Death Star II led to the Emperor’s defeat and saving the universe. But that’s just not true. Luke was irrelevant at that point.

Luke was not strong enough to defeat the Emperor on his own. He knew the only way he could do it was to turn Vader. He was willing to sacrifice his life by laying down his weapon and refusing to kill his father in hopes that he would join him in defeating the Emperor. It worked.

Not sure where the confusion is. Did you want Luke to become a superhero and physically defeat 2 full realized Sith despite receiving minimal training?

There is nothing to suggest Luke had any desire to defeat the Emperor at all. Quite the contrary, he threw his weapon aside and declared “I am a Jedi, like my father before me”. There’s no way the broken Darth Vader was in any position to help take down the Emperor at this point. Luke’s only concern in this entire process was a) getting out of the way so as not to endanger the Endor mission and b) turning Anakin to the ‘good side’. In fact he spent the entire process making sure he didn’t fight anybody, and only gave in to battling Vader when he was goaded (which apparently is wrong by Jedi standards).

So, just to recap, Luke didn’t want to fight anyone at all (rendering him entirely useless while an actual battle raged outside), was only concerned about Anakin’s spiritual welfare (again not helpful to the rebellion/battle in any way), and his only tangible contribution to this entire scenario was inadvertently (ie not purposefully because he was only concerned with his Dad’s well-being) preventing Palpatine’s possible escape from the exploding Death Star.

Which is fine (and he recruited the Ewoks as a previous poster mentioned) but none of this grants a shred of credence to the 3-film buildup that suggested Luke was the hope of the Galaxy or that Jedi themselves are a remotely good idea in this universe. If Jedi aren’t allowed to fight, turn irreversibly evil at the drop of a hat, and get cosmically forgiven for ghastly war-crimes if they selfishly save their own flesh and blood at the last minute, then I’m not so sure we want Luke to ‘pass on what he has learned’.

Even more ironically, Vader got his cosmic pardon by brutally killing the Emperor! So apparently trying to kill the Emperor because he’s slaughtering thousands of rebels is a path to the Dark Side, but killing the guy in defence of your own son is infinitely more noble and a path to the ‘good side’?

What are you talking about? The line before what you are clinging to is about how he won’t be turned to the dark side.
Furthermore, he wasn’t useless. As he says (again) he was willing to be blown up on DSII to ensure that the Emperor was onboard while the Rebels destroyed it. His part of the mission was the occupy the two most powerful beings in the galaxy.

His destiny as the Jedi saw it was to kill his father and the Emperor.
His destiny as the Sith saw it was to kill his father and join the Emperor by giving into his anger.
Luke chose a 3rd path. Turn his father to the light and defeat the Emperor.
He was willing to die rather than give into either of the two destinies the two sides saw for him. He brought balance to the Force.

Vader didn’t “brutally kill” the Emperor. He heard his son begging for ‘help’ as he was having the life shocked out of him and he threw the Emperor over a railing.

I feel like perhaps we saw two different versions of the film.

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Rescued a princess, helped deliver the DS plans to the rebels. He did blow up the first Death Star. Got a medal for it too. If he never did another thing after that, he would be a legend.

The shield generator mission might have not succeeded without Han being there, or Luke making the Ewoks into allies.

I’m sure 30 years on, the stories about Luke have been retold over and over to the point that they only bear passing resemblance to what actually happened.

Yeah, but I’m talking specifically about ROTJ’s climax. The whole build-up throughout the OT was about Luke being the last hope, the only hope, not abandoning his training, not giving in to the quick and easy path etc etc etc. “Only a fully trained Jedi Knight will conquer Vader and his Emperor”. Even Lucas said that Luke’s actions on Death Star II led to the Emperor’s defeat and saving the universe. But that’s just not true. Luke was irrelevant at that point.

Luke was not strong enough to defeat the Emperor on his own. He knew the only way he could do it was to turn Vader. He was willing to sacrifice his life by laying down his weapon and refusing to kill his father in hopes that he would join him in defeating the Emperor. It worked.

Not sure where the confusion is. Did you want Luke to become a superhero and physically defeat 2 full realized Sith despite receiving minimal training?

chyron8472 said:

What exactly would you guys say are specific reasons why TLJ is so divisive?

Not why it sucks, or why it’s wonderful—but what about the film seems to (apparently) be making it a love it or hate it kind of thing?

Like, if I were to have a conversation with someone I know irl about TLJ, and if I said it seems to be really divisive regarding the fanbase, and they asked me why, what could I say?

…I’m having this hypothetical conversation with family in my head, but I don’t know how to explain conceptually why its divisive, especially to someone who hasn’t seen the film yet.

I think there are a lot of things that can putoff viewers:
+Things you that were made to be important are easily dismissed
+Lacks traditional Star Wars pacing
+story only really builds to middle act, not final act
+feels like you are watching another film, not a Star Wars film
+has a general disrespect for the universe created before it

All of that probably is less of a reason and the biggest reason is people had really high expectations for this because of inclusion of luke/leia and it being the middle chapter of this trilogy. People went into it expecting ESB level filmmaking.

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

Unrelated, “kill Snoke to impress a girl” is incredibly off base.

If it wasn’t to sway Rey, he would have killed her as well.

I liked the movie and will watch it over and over again, just like all other Star Wars films. I just think the progression of the story in the last two films has been actually worse than the prequel trilogy.

I think you need to watch both these films and the prequels again, and see how off base you are.

Lol, ok. Snoke just essentially became Count Dooku.

The prequels has bad dialog, dated CGI and was bogged down in irrelevant republic bureaucracy but the core arch of the main character was clear: gifted slave child falls in love with a royal, only to have his love be forbidden by those who raise him. Because of the secret nature of his love, he falls victim to dangerous promises to protect the life of the woman he loves. He reaches the pinnacle of his craft, only to fall from grace due to his insecurities. In the end, his mistakes and arrogance are what lead to her death. He is forced to live out his life a damages, shell of a man both physically and emotionally.

What is the story arch of Rey’s character thus far? Due to the condensed nature of these two films, she hasn’t been given any space to grow. The easiest way to accelerate character growth is to have them overcome a struggle or defeat. She hasn’t been defeated in any way. I don’t see what her character has left to do in this trilogy other than to kill Ben and as best I can tell, she could walk up to him and do that at any time should she chose.

I don’t know why I even have to explain this,

Because the filmmakers have done such a poor job of it?

but Rey is a scavenger from Jakku, a nobody who hopes to someday be somebody when her parents return. She learns it is time to move on and help the Resistance and train to learn, yet she finds doing this is not so easy as she finds these new heightened feelings confused and only exacerbating her unresolved desire to reconnect with her parents and fulfill whatever her destiny is supposed to be. But, what she comes to terms with is that her parents were nobody, and that’s okay, because it means she can create her own destiny and find her own family, in the Resistance.

That doesn’t make an epic story. How does she learn any of that? Even at the lowest point of Luke not helping her, she is in complete control of her own destiny. When she arrives before Snoke in what clearly was a mistake, she goes through 30 seconds of anguish from Snoke’s Force whateverthatwas and getting hit in the back of the head with her own lightsaber hilt. She recovers completely to the point that she can wipe out Snoke’s entire protection service. After that, unless I missed something, she spends the rest of the movie back on the Falcon shooting Tie Fighters and lifting rocks.

As to what next, unlike the PT we don’t know where this is going (which is a good thing). Also, unlike the PT, her arc is believable, unlike the PT where first of all Anakin and Padme’s romance is a bit creepy because of their ages in TPM, and second of all is incredibly creepy and in no way believable because of Anakin’s portrayal in AOTC, and his eventual fall to the dark side is rushed and sloppily handled in ROTS.

The difference is in the direction and the dialogue. Both were awful in the PT. But when you look at the story Lucas tried to tell, it was a story of love, loss, arrogance and the fall of a hero. His main hero was going somewhere on his journey. He lost and failed. He lost the man who freed him, he lost his mother, he lost his arm, he lost his wife and children, he betrayed everyone who loved him. He embarrassed himself with his arrogance. He had character flaws that he either had to overcome or they would destroy him. What are Rey’s flaws and what danger do they present to her? What are her weaknesses that still threaten her in this epic story?

I’d also argue that Rey has no arc. Her character is relatively unchanged from the moment we meet her until now, other than she knows how to use her special powers (which she gains from 2 days of mild meditation). She has not needed the Resistance or friends since she left Jakku. If you remove them from the story, her story continues on exactly the same. She is captured by Ren, frees herself. She faces Ren, defeats him herself. She sets out to find Luke by herself. She turns herself in to Snoke, escapes his Destroyer without any aide from the Resistence. She is still the lonely junker. Unlike Luke, she didn’t offer to sacrifice herself to save her friends/the cause. Luke’s journey was to save a princess, save the rebellion, then save his friends, finally his father. What is her journey? To figure out who she is, when she already always knew she was nobody? They’ve given the character nowhere logical direction to go, except in some rushed direction with only one film left to do it.

Daisy is a great actress and Rey’s character is fun to watch, but there is nothing to it.

Finn’s character is actually the one that has grown the most. He has suffered defeat numerous times and come out a better person for it. He DOES offer to sacrifice himself for the cause after starting out as a selfish coward. His motives change from being all about protecting Rey to being about saving the lives of others.

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

They’ve been very hush hush about him in the new canon (if I’m not mistaken, his brief appearance in Battlefront II might be his only out of film appearance). But I don’t see the issue. He was clearly Snoke’s right hand guy like Vader was to the Emperor, and he could pretty much kill anyone who stands in his way (as is demonstrated with Hux).

Darth Vader eradicated an entire organization of trained force users. In his previous life, he was a war hero. Darth Vader had clout to lead the Galactic Empire should he chose to. What has Kyle Ren accomplished? I’m not saying he hasn’t proven himself worthy of the position he now holds in some off-screen way, but they’ve done nothing on screen to give him the position other than kill Snoke to impress a girl.

I liked the movie and will watch it over and over again, just like all other Star Wars films. I just think the progression of the story in the last two films has been actually worse than the prequel trilogy.

I think you need to watch both these films and the prequels again, and see how off base you are.

The prequels has bad dialog, dated CGI and was bogged down in irrelevant republic bureaucracy but the core arch of the main character was clear: gifted slave child falls in love with a royal, only to have his love be forbidden by those who raise him. Because of the secret nature of his love, he falls victim to dangerous promises to protect the life of the woman he loves. He reaches the pinnacle of his craft, only to fall from grace due to his insecurities. In the end, his mistakes and arrogance are what lead to her death. He is forced to live out his life a damages, shell of a man both physically and emotionally.

What is the story arch of Rey’s character thus far? Due to the condensed nature of these two films, she hasn’t been given any space to grow. The easiest way to accelerate character growth is to have them overcome a struggle or defeat. She hasn’t been defeated in any way. I don’t see what her character has left to do in this trilogy other than to kill Ben and as best I can tell, she could walk up to him and do that at any time should she chose.

Jyn lived under the oppression of the Empire, her parents stolen from her and having to live constantly on the run for fear of being found. She can’t have friends or any real relationships, really. She has been in and out of Imperial detention centers most of her young life.

What does she have to be happy about?

Rey, while poor and lonely, lives free of worrying about a galactic oppressor (until BB8) shows up. She has a home and can be whoever she wants to be.

Criticizing Jyn’s character for being dour about everything seems to ignore what a true hellscape her life has been in the shadow of the Empire. She is a prime example of the hopelessness that Luke’s New Hope is intended to correct.

Would this film have been better served if JJ had ended TFA with Rey flying off to look for Luke?

They could have done a more natural time jump and not made 66% of the ST take place in the span of a week.

Also, while it is cool to see Jedi Master Luke Skywalker in his new Jedi Order days, I still don’t know how I feel about these flashbacks. We didn’t need to see Vader ‘killing Anakin’ when Ben told the story to Luke for it to work for the viewer.

I think the entire ST has a really good story in there somewhere but there have been so many story telling gimics (mystery box, ex deus machina, flashbacks) that all they’ve done is spend the storytelling capital built by Lucas without doing the work of making the two main leads relatable or have their characters grow in any meaningful way.

If anything, Kylo Ren has been put through the ringer to where his character should overcome and succeed in defeating the seemingly invincible foe (Rey). Rey hasn’t had to go through anything. Since meeting BB8, everything has gone pretty well considering she’s an abandoned junker with special powers. She easily escaped capture twice (how did she get off Snoke’s ship BTW), defeated her enemy twice and is 2-0 vs the First Order when in the Falcon.

Furthermore, why should the First Order follow Kylo Ren? I’m not sure what he has accomplished (unless I’ve missed something in the new EU).

I liked the movie and will watch it over and over again, just like all other Star Wars films. I just think the progression of the story in the last two films has been actually worse than the prequel trilogy.

Someone in my showing said of the Rey/Ren line-up convos: “what, is this a liberty mutual commercial?”

Yoda burned down the tree to get Luke to stop romanticizing it. Luke missed the lesson Yoda tried to teach him day 1: focus on the here and now. Luke was so wrapped up in the ancient order and the mistake he made with Ben that he severed his connection to the force.

Why Yoda had not appeared before, I took it, was because look was disconnected from the Force. Once he went to the rock and reopened that connection, he and Yoda could speak again.

The frustrating thing about this film is it left me for the first time not caring about the next film. I know thats a personal experience.

They’ve still yet to make Ben a convincing foe for Rey or the Rebels. They’ve also still failed to have Rey earn anything in this trilogy. I still think that JJ will reveal that Rey IS a Skywalker and the main struggle in the 3rd film will be that she must decide whether to kill her brother/cousin or not. Otherwise, what’s the point? It is just random force user goes to kill evil force user she is already more powerful than.

I wish they had passed R2 off to Rey as she has no Droid and I want more R2 in my life. Again, personal choice…doesnt make it wrong decision.

lovelikewinter said:

Luke said Kylo left with a few of his pupils and killed the rest, those are the Knights of Ren.

And they are where?